Institutional Action -- "Theft"

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Jared.mock

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Well, danggit. What an awesome way to end my semester.

I got an IA (probation) for an incident that happened two weeks ago. I took a pair of headphones from a lost-and-found box in one of my classes. The headphones were in there for over a month so I took them. Not trying to excuse my actions, but to me it seemed like a victimless act. Nevertheless the instructor saw what I did and emailed me after class saying that I will get reported to the Dean of Student Conduct. A week later had a "hearing" with the Dean before getting put on probation.

The official charge that I got reads something like "theft, forgery, the unauthorized use of or causing damage to property of any type..."

I'm a junior and applying in the summer. 3.74 gpa, 511 MCAT (September exam), typical EC's, 2 years research (3rd author on one paper). Before this IA I was a typical applicant but now I've morphed into pre-medical backwater. I am in complete shock, I know this sounds bizarre but I don't think I've experienced this type of nihilism since my uncle passed four years ago.

Can I please get advice regarding the following matters:

1) How big of bullet did I lodge into my foot? i.e., say I had a 70-80% chance of matriculating somewhere based on the snapshot stats I gave above, how much is that chance at now? (give a best guesstimate if you can)

2) What steps should I take from now to remediate my image?

3) What, if any, medical schools value personal redemption? (this is my only red flag AFAIK).

Thanks
 
1. I don't think the bullet is in your foot, I think it's in your femoral artery. You are less than 10% for the next cycle probably
2. You may have to postpone applying for a while, this is an ethical concern and most schools will just blacklist applicants who have been caught making morally wrong decisions so recently.

I hope @Goro has better news for you.
 
Sorry to say, but I think you are dead in the water for a long time. It's on your record that you are a thief, and medical schools are going to have a huge problem with that. I mean, why would they risk taking you when they have other applicants with higher stats and no IAs?
 
This is a hard one to process. First, I want to know why the instructor would accuse you of theft. How would he know that the headphones weren't yours? Was there a procedure you're supposed to follow?

To tell the truth, I've salvaged a number of things from the lost and found can at my daughter's school. You'd be surprised what kids lose or throw away, including a $300 flute, a violin and some really nice jackets.

So I personally ding you too hard for something I would have done, but I can't advise well on how others might react.

Your best bet is to A) fight it tooth and nail and B), if you lose that fight, explain it fully in the appropriate box in apps, and hope screeners see this as, well , kind of a ludicrous charge.

I also have the nagging doubt that there's more to the story than OP is letting on.
 
1) you seem to already know the answer to this. I agree with Dr.Death. In fact, he's being optimistic by giving you a 10% outlook.
Some schools will automatically pre-screen and filter you out, shamelessly taking your application money without showing mercy.
Others will put you into a pile to be looked at as a "special case". Only the benign alcohol violations, etc. will survive this.

Your best bet is to apply to your in-state school. There are some that guarantee an interview to in-state applicant that meet some criteria, so maybe you can at least get an interview and a chance to explain yourself.

2) time and positions of responsibilities... also, apply every single cycle so schools can see your maturity. Let's say you interview at the same school two years in a row, they may see that you did indeed grow and will look past the IA to give you a chance.
 
Goro said:
This is a hard one to process. First, I want to know why the instructor would accuse you of theft. How would he know that the headphones weren't yours? Was there a procedure you're supposed to follow?
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply.

During a group activity I took them from the box then went back to my seat and had a laugh about it with my friends. The instructor presumably saw (and heard) everything.
According to the student handbook, which I obviously never read until I got charged, items may not be removed from a lost-and-found box for the entirety of the semester unless owned by the student and at the end of the semester applicable items are donated to proper avenues. This is the policy that the Dean told me I broke.
 
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OK, own it and learn from it. It might, on paper, appear trivial enough that someone might cut you some slack.

Sometimes you have to apply with the app you have, warts and all.

It will be prudent to have Plan B, just in case.



Jared.mock said:
During a group activity I took them from the box then went back to my seat and had a laugh about it with my friends. The instructor presumably saw everything.

According to the student handbook, which I obviously never read until I got charged, items may not be removed from a lost-and-found box for the entirety of the semester unless owned by the student and at the end of the semester applicable items are donated to proper avenues. This is the policy that the Dean told me I broke.
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
OK, own it and learn from it. It might, on paper, appear trivial enough that someone might cut you some slack.

Sometimes you have to apply with the app you have, warts and all.

It will be prudent to have Plan B, just in case.
Click to expand...

Thanks Goro. Plan B was pharmacy, but pharmcas also asks about IAs. Time to think about what I can do with a psychology degree. Yikes.
 
Cotterpin said:
Is a psych degree really a "yikes" situation? Clinical psych is my top plan B because at least then I would spend my days seeing patients.
Click to expand...

Yeah, clinical psych is a viable option. I just never saw this coming.
 
Wow, that's... insane. With IA posts, I usually am not sympathetic, but in this case, I really think your professor and dean are taking this too far. Have you tried appealing to their sympathy by explaining that you are an applicant and that this could ruin your future??
 
Just apply broadly, I think you will get in.
 
Ok, you screwed up. I don't think you're necessarily out of the race, but you will be if you don't apply. Apply. Own up. See what happens. It's less than ideal, but I don't think it's the end of the world... And take the advice of SDNers with a grain of salt...
 
If you're going to steal something you don't open your mouth, you don't take incriminating evidence and you certainly don't openly admit to it.

Hope this helps,
TBV
 
Jared.mock said:
Thanks for your reply.

During a group activity I took them from the box then went back to my seat and had a laugh about it with my friends. The instructor presumably saw (and heard) everything.
According to the student handbook, which I obviously never read until I got charged, items may not be removed from a lost-and-found box for the entirety of the semester unless owned by the student and at the end of the semester applicable items are donated to proper avenues. This is the policy that the Dean told me I broke.
Click to expand...

LOL!!! This is a grade-A example of karma. I have a friend with a simple alcohol violation and she only heard from 2 schools despite having a 75 LizzyM. So you are toast.
 
mock94 said:
"Joined: Yesterday"

Lmao, get a life troll. OP, don't listen to this poster.
Click to expand...

Are we really judging people's potential to contribute by their join dates? In that case, SDN has been around since 1997 and that is 18*365.25 = 6574 days. If I am a 6573*100/6574 = 99.98% troll , then (using your join date of August 2nd, 2014 which is 503 days ago), you are a (6574-503)*100/6574 = 92.35% troll. Q.E.D.
 
Kelly1993 said:
Are we really judging people's potential to contribute by their join dates? In that case, SDN has been around since 1997 and that is 18*365.25 = 6574 days. If I am a 6573*100/6574 = 99.98% troll , then (using your join date of August 2nd, 2014 which is 503 days ago), you are a (6574-503)*100/6574 = 92.35% troll. Q.E.D.
Click to expand...

It's really more about the unnecessarily mean comment (despite being brand new to the site) that suggest you might be a troll.
 
How do med schools find out about IAs? Do they really check every institution you've been to and ask? IAs aren't on your transcript.
 
Jared.mock said:
Thanks for your reply.

During a group activity I took them from the box then went back to my seat and had a laugh about it with my friends. The instructor presumably saw (and heard) everything.
According to the student handbook, which I obviously never read until I got charged, items may not be removed from a lost-and-found box for the entirety of the semester unless owned by the student and at the end of the semester applicable items are donated to proper avenues. This is the policy that the Dean told me I broke.
Click to expand...

Own it. Report the IA in your own words. You are in control of the story. It might go something like this: " I took a pair of headphones from the lost and found box after they'd been in there for a month. I was unaware that school policy dictated that unclaimed items were to be donated to charity (or whatever). An instructor saw me take them and reported me to the Dean who charged me with a violation of the school policy and I was placed on probation for one term."

If it is written this way, it seems rather benign. I would put your chances of interview at 50-50 and after that it all depends on how you deport yourself in the interview.
 
Should also be noted that the way @LizzyM says to write it will likely make adcoms be like, "Really? They put this kid on probation for this?" which helps your case.
 
Jared.mock said:
Well, danggit. What an awesome way to end my semester.

I got an IA (probation) for an incident that happened two weeks ago. I took a pair of headphones from a lost-and-found box in one of my classes. The headphones were in there for over a month so I took them. Not trying to excuse my actions, but to me it seemed like a victimless act.
Click to expand...

Well, who knows. Maybe at the end of the year the school sells the items and donates the money to starving children in Africa.

If you really wanted to be slick with this, though, you could have just told the prof, "Hey, I lost some headphones about a month ago, and I'm just asking all my profs if they might have seen them around. Did you see any here, perchance?"
"Why yes, my good man, we have a pair right here in the lost and found."
"Oh joyous, happy days! I have recovered my lost property. I am so happy."
"Mmmm yes. Quite. Run along now. To learn, and to grow."

This is how it would have happened if you had any talent as a thief. But you have no talent as a thief. And now your talent as a student will be overshadowed by the fact you are a thieving, dirty criminal.

Jared.mock said:
Nevertheless the instructor saw what I did and emailed me after class saying that I will get reported to the Dean of Student Conduct.
Click to expand...

He didn't just call you out in person on it? He has to passive aggressively wait until you walk away with it and then report you? I would have just verbally reprimanded you and told you to put it back -- end of story. Seriously, this guy sounds like kind of a puss mixed with a sadist.

Still, what you did was unethical and wrong. You did it knowing full well the consequences of the act, so you deserve the punishment.

Jared.mock said:
Before this IA I was a typical applicant but now I've morphed into pre-medical backwater. I am in complete shock, I know this sounds bizarre but I don't think I've experienced this type of nihilism since my uncle passed four years ago.
Click to expand...

Weren't you already a nihilist? I mean, bro, you went out of your way to pillage the lost and found for a ****ing $50 pair of headphones. Like, come on man.


Jared.mock said:
1) How big of bullet did I lodge into my foot? i.e., say I had a 70-80% chance of matriculating somewhere based on the snapshot stats I gave above, how much is that chance at now? (give a best guesstimate if you can)
Click to expand...

Probably not too bad. But you'll always be carrying around the stigma that you can't be trusted. That's going to be a bit of a weight to carry, but it can be overshadowed by a reasonable explanation in secondaries/interviews behind which you have your strong pre-med credentials.

Jared.mock said:
2) What steps should I take from now to remediate my image?
Click to expand...

Get involved in charitable stuff. Show you're a giver, when you're not being a taker. So it's like oh, this guy's got a bad side, but really he's just misunderstood. A robin hood of sorts.

Jared.mock said:
3) What, if any, medical schools value personal redemption? (this is my only red flag AFAIK).
Click to expand...

Dunno. Maybe osteos, in general, would be better about it.

And there's always the Carib!!!
(bracing for flame war impact)
 
utmn said:
Honestly I think they read the explanation pretty carefully. I have 3 II at my top 3 schools with one acceptance. Average stats and an IA. it's all in how you explain it!
Click to expand...

If you don't mind me asking.. what was your IA?
 
lol

It's sad to see that so many people on here are complete sticklers. It's no surprise that all the negative comments saying OP has no chance are premeds while the adcoms are offering real advice. He stole a pair of headphones and he can easily make it sound like an honest mistake, it's laughable that some of you actually fooled yourselves into believing that such a minor infraction presents you as a criminal that can't be trusted. If OP applies broadly and explains his situation in the interview, he has good chances of getting accepted somewhere and there's absolutely nothing any of you can do about it.
 
What was your relationship like with the professor prior to the incident? I have a hard time believing that a professor would be that much of a hard-ass about it unless you had prior negative history with them.
 
There are students in med schools right now with real criminal records -- heck I personally know a guy admitted that was convicted of statutory rape.

It's an uphill battle for sure, but an IA for something so innocuous is hardly a death sentence.
 
Azete said:
There are students in med schools right now with real criminal records -- heck I personally know a guy admitted that was convicted of statutory rape.

It's an uphill battle for sure, but an IA for something so innocuous is hardly a death sentence.
Click to expand...

And he's the best pediatric gynecologist in the state!
 
It feels like there's something your not telling us.

However this seems to be one of those things that adcoms will want you to admit your wrongdoing and show that this is not who you really are.

It's a rather stupid IA but it's still an IA and is gonna have to be explained
 
it sucks but if sounds like you screwed yourself over
 
Honestly if I were an adcom I may still give you a chance if your application is fantastic and have demonstrated how you've grown from the experience. I just don't think what you did is severe enough make you an unethical doctor. But I'm just a lowly pre-med, so what do I know?
 
thatwouldbeanarchy said:
Does it seem a bit odd to anyone else that a school would actually have a policy written in the student conduct code about the lost and found bin...? 😕
Click to expand...
Not really.. If it wasn't "against the rules" students would go shopping daily.
 
lalex said:
Not really.. If it wasn't "against the rules" students would go shopping daily.
Click to expand...
Lol. My point is that it seems like an odd thing to codify in writing. I'm pretty familiar with my own UG's conduct code and it mostly covers things like cheating, sexual assault, discrimination, etc. In comparison, the lost and found seems rather trivial...
 
thatwouldbeanarchy said:
Lol. My point is that it seems like an odd thing to codify in writing. I'm pretty familiar with my own UG's conduct code and it mostly covers things like cheating, sexual assault, discrimination, etc. In comparison, the lost and found seems rather trivial...
Click to expand...
I just checked and stealing is definitely on mine, but no mention of a lost/found but it is so broad it can be applied to any stealing.
 
Jared.mock said:
Thanks for your reply.

During a group activity I took them from the box then went back to my seat and had a laugh about it with my friends. The instructor presumably saw (and heard) everything.
According to the student handbook, which I obviously never read until I got charged, items may not be removed from a lost-and-found box for the entirety of the semester unless owned by the student and at the end of the semester applicable items are donated to proper avenues. This is the policy that the Dean told me I broke.
Click to expand...

I hope you read all handbooks, contracts, etc from now on before you get in trouble.
 
LOL @ pre-meds somehow predicting a 10% chance. :sendoff: No wonder SDN has a certain reputation.

Own up to it, explain it well, and show what you learned. The way you described it, if that's what happened, it's a blemish on your already strong app but it's not an app-killer. I've seen worse. Your chances are no longer 70-80% but they're way, way higher than 10% assuming you handle it well.
 
Ismet said:
LOL @ pre-meds somehow predicting a 10% chance. :sendoff: No wonder SDN has a certain reputation.
Click to expand...

I'm curious how they ended up with that specific fraction. Surely there's a methodology behind it

Dr. Death said:
1. I don't think the bullet is in your foot, I think it's in your femoral artery. You are less than 10% for the next cycle probably
Click to expand...
mock94 said:
1) you seem to already know the answer to this. I agree with Dr.Death. In fact, he's being optimistic by giving you a 10% outlook.
Click to expand...
piii said:
You started with a 60% chance https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstablea24-4.pdf

Probably below 10%.
Click to expand...

How did you end up with below 10%?
 
Krumpus said:
what kinda headphones? beats? bose?
Click to expand...

ya if its like 200$ piece of headphones that you just took cuz noone claimed it then I dont feel bad for you... if we are talking about 2 dollar headphones then the instructor is being a stickler (since the person likely doesnt care he lost it)
 
TheGameMed said:
ya if its like 200$ piece of headphones that you just took cuz noone claimed it then I dont feel bad for you... if we are talking about 2 dollar headphones then the instructor is being a stickler (since the person likely doesnt care he lost it)
Click to expand...

ya that would be inexcusable
 
Womb Raider said:
How do med schools find out about IAs? Do they really check every institution you've been to and ask? IAs aren't on your transcript.
Click to expand...

They ask you on AMCAS. If you don't divulge there, there are multiple different ways that they can find out:

1) Pre-Med Committee letter. Many schools require a committee letter which is drafted by your school's pre-med committee after an interview with them. They will include things like disciplinary sanctions, etc. (they have access to that stuff).

2) Other letters of recommendations from someone who knew about your incident

3) Asking for a Dean's Certificate -- only a few schools ask for this. A Dean's Certificate only serves the purpose of stating whether or not you've violated a conduct code during your time at that institution. Unlike a committee LOR, the main purpose of this certificate is to see if you've dun screwed up or not.

4) Asking your school. They may not do this routinely, but the threat is always there of this happening. And you are not protected by FERPA for this. One of the few instances in which a school may release your disciplinary record is if it's released to an institution that you seek admittance into.

I know of one person in medical school who decided to not disclose his IA (for vandalism... painting a tree). He is hanging on such a loose thread right now. All it would take for his career to be over is me (or anyone else) sending an email to his Dean of Admissions, and wham he's done.

If you asked this question thinking about lying about your IA, then reconsider. It might work, it might not work. But if does not work don't blame anyone but yourself.
 
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