Interesting Article on Suicide

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http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/21/health/raison-suicide-tony-scott/

Written by a practicing psychiatrist in the wake of Tony Scott's (apparent) suicide. I found it a great read because it discusses suicide in practical terms and caters to both sides of the story. Pretty short too, which is a plus. I'd be curious to hear everyone's take on it. I'm admittedly neither the most educated nor biggest supporter of psychiatry but this definitely made me pause to reconsider some of the aspects of this small segment of the field.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/21/health/raison-suicide-tony-scott/

Written by a practicing psychiatrist in the wake of Tony Scott's (apparent) suicide. I found it a great read because it discusses suicide in practical terms and caters to both sides of the story. Pretty short too, which is a plus. I'd be curious to hear everyone's take on it. I'm admittedly neither the most educated nor biggest supporter of psychiatry but this definitely made me pause to reconsider some of the aspects of this small segment of the field.

I'm curious as to how the field of psychiatry formally treats potential suicides. Say if a patient discloses the intent to commit suicide, how do psychiatrists handle it?

 

[alerk323]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/21/health/raison-suicide-tony-scott/

Written by a practicing psychiatrist in the wake of Tony Scott's (apparent) suicide. I found it a great read because it discusses suicide in practical terms and caters to both sides of the story. Pretty short too, which is a plus. I'd be curious to hear everyone's take on it. I'm admittedly neither the most educated nor biggest supporter of psychiatry but this definitely made me pause to reconsider some of the aspects of this small segment of the field.

Good to be open minded, this isn't a response to the article just something about psychiatry in general. My dad was talking to some people (he's a primary care physician) and someone mentioned a psychiatrists who usually is part of the group. My dad made a joke about psychiatry, nothing mean spirited just kinda making fun. People laughed but one guy looked up, and without any malice or anything just said "he actually helped me a lot when my son died last year".

Anyway not the most relevant but made me think and appreciate psychiatry more, carry on

 

[MaenadsDance]

I'm curious as to how the field of psychiatry formally treats potential suicides. Say if a patient discloses the intent to commit suicide, how do psychiatrists handle it?

I believe that if mental health professionals have substantive reason to believe that a patient they are seeing intends to commit suicide (and if a patient discloses such a thing, that's substantive enough reason) the mental health professional has a duty to hospitalize that patient. Psychiatric hospitals, and hospitals with psych units, have 72 hour holds for just that purpose - mandatory holds on patients who may or may not want to be there, but have been deemed a serious risk to themselves (or, less frequently, others) by a mental health person

As for skepticism of psychiatry -- there's a lot I don't like about the field, but I have no patience for people who believe that psychiatric ailments aren't as serious as (or as deserving of compassion as) more widely accepted physical ailments. Psychiatric illness needs treatment; the treatment available isn't great, but it's a lot better than it was thirty years ago, and infinitely better than it was sixty years ago.

 

[Freesia88]

What I find interesting is the fact that in the comments section, the people seem to be a lot more tolerant of the idea of suicide in the face of terminal disease than I anticipated... Take this quote for example by Bocabill :

Here's a thought that I had on the subject not too long ago.
I recently had to euthanize one of my dogs.
He had a long, good, healthy and happy life, and it just was time.
But as I look back on it, I wondered. Here we are, human beings capable of loving others, of caring for them, of being in tune with them, of wanting to help them. We are capable of bringing in individuals of a completely different species to our lives, taking responsibility for them, making sure that they are healthy, happy, well-fed and well cared for. They can't even speak, they can't tell us or communicate if they feel ill, they can't tell us if and when they are in pain. But we are so caring and on the lookout for their well being that we do our best to notice signs that they are sick or when they are in discomfort and we do all that we can in order to heal them, relieve their pain, and if their condition is causing them ongoing suffering or when their quality of life goes below a particular level, we care enough to even relieve them of the pain of continuing existence.
How is is possible that so many of us are capable of this level of involvement, attentiveness and awareness of the pain/health of our pets and yet we are unaware, unconcerned or turn a blind eye/ear to other human beings who are clearly exhibiting signs and actually TELLING us that they are in pain, not well, or that they are suffering?
How can we treat our pets better than most of us treat people who we profess to care about or even love?
Has anyone else contemplated this little idiosyncrasy of our species?

This general sentiment is echoed by many in the discussion. Makes me wonder if things are gonna be changing as far as euthanasia is concerned, especially in the face of rising cost of living as a whole and healthcare costs in particular.

 

[LizzyM]

I believe that if mental health professionals have substantive reason to believe that a patient they are seeing intends to commit suicide (and if a patient discloses such a thing, that's substantive enough reason) the mental health professional has a duty to hospitalize that patient. Psychiatric hospitals, and hospitals with psych units, have 72 hour holds for just that purpose - mandatory holds on patients who may or may not want to be there, but have been deemed a serious risk to themselves (or, less frequently, others) by a mental health person

As for skepticism of psychiatry -- there's a lot I don't like about the field, but I have no patience for people who believe that psychiatric ailments aren't as serious as (or as deserving of compassion as) more widely accepted physical ailments. Psychiatric illness needs treatment; the treatment available isn't great, but it's a lot better than it was thirty years ago, and infinitely better than it was sixty years ago.

^ This. A medical professional issues a "paper" that is transmitted to the police who are authorized to pick up the individual and transport them to a mental health facility for inpatient treatment even if it is against their will.

A portion of the sad story out of Aurora, Colorado is whether the guy with the guns tipped his hand to someone who could have had him picked up by police before anyone got hurt.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

What I find interesting is the fact that in the comments section, the people seem to be a lot more tolerant of the idea of suicide in the face of terminal disease than I anticipated... Take this quote for example by Bocabill :

Here's a thought that I had on the subject not too long ago.
I recently had to euthanize one of my dogs.
He had a long, good, healthy and happy life, and it just was time.
But as I look back on it, I wondered. Here we are, human beings capable of loving others, of caring for them, of being in tune with them, of wanting to help them. We are capable of bringing in individuals of a completely different species to our lives, taking responsibility for them, making sure that they are healthy, happy, well-fed and well cared for. They can't even speak, they can't tell us or communicate if they feel ill, they can't tell us if and when they are in pain. But we are so caring and on the lookout for their well being that we do our best to notice signs that they are sick or when they are in discomfort and we do all that we can in order to heal them, relieve their pain, and if their condition is causing them ongoing suffering or when their quality of life goes below a particular level, we care enough to even relieve them of the pain of continuing existence.
How is is possible that so many of us are capable of this level of involvement, attentiveness and awareness of the pain/health of our pets and yet we are unaware, unconcerned or turn a blind eye/ear to other human beings who are clearly exhibiting signs and actually TELLING us that they are in pain, not well, or that they are suffering?
How can we treat our pets better than most of us treat people who we profess to care about or even love?
Has anyone else contemplated this little idiosyncrasy of our species?

This general sentiment is echoed by many in the discussion. Makes me wonder if things are gonna be changing as far as euthanasia is concerned, especially in the face of rising cost of living as a whole and healthcare costs in particular.

Perhaps this is cultural residue from the heritage of western religion.

 

[Freesia88]

Perhaps this is cultural residue from the heritage of western religion.

😕 I don't get it... I mean, literally, I do not understand the point you are making. Could you please explain further? 🙂

 

[MaenadsDance]

Perhaps this is cultural residue from the heritage of western religion.

I expect that's exactly what it is. In my family, we're all a pack of atheists and big fans of euthanasia, heh. My grandmother, rest her soul, donated pretty heavily to Kevorkian's legal defense team back in the day.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

😕 I don't get it... I mean, literally, I do not understand the point you are making. Could you please explain further? 🙂

Sure thing. Basically, historically, western religion marked suicide out to be a mortal sin. Although we do not necessarily profess this to be our current belief, there is a residual effect from the fact that it was once taken as FACT. The social stigma against it was so strong that although the specific logical reason for its existing in the first place has dissipated, the stigma still resides in our culture.

 

[MaenadsDance]

Sure thing. Basically, historically, western religion marked suicide out to be a mortal sin. Although we do not necessarily profess this to be our current belief, there is a residual effect from the fact that it was once taken as FACT. The social stigma against it was so strong that although the specific logical reason for its existing in the first place has dissipated, the stigma still resides in our culture.

As an example, people who committed suicide would be denied a "Christian burial" in a church cemetery, and were presumed to be going to hell. The idea is, if you kill yourself you're a murderer AND you're denying the blessing of creation and spitting in God's face, so you're doubly damned. There's a whole long passage in Dante's Inferno where he's walking through the wood of suicides.

It's really interesting how quickly the Western world transitioned from antiquity, where suicide with honor was a big deal (Brutus falls on his sword rather than surrender to Marc Antony, Cato the Younger cut his guts open, was discovered by his relatives and patched up, and then TORE HIS INTESTINES OUT WITH HIS BARE HANDS again rather than live in a world where he'd be ruled by Caesar) to a world where suicide was considered an unforgivable sin.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

As an example, people who committed suicide would be denied a "Christian burial" in a church cemetery, and were presumed to be going to hell. The idea is, if you kill yourself you're a murderer AND you're denying the blessing of creation and spitting in God's face, so you're doubly damned. There's a whole long passage in Dante's Inferno where he's walking through the wood of suicides.

It's really interesting how quickly the Western world transitioned from antiquity, where suicide with honor was a big deal (Brutus falls on his sword rather than surrender to Marc Antony, Cato the Younger cut his guts open, was discovered by his relatives and patched up, and then TORE HIS INTESTINES OUT WITH HIS BARE HANDS again rather than live in a world where he'd be ruled by Caesar) to a world where suicide was considered an unforgivable sin.

MaenadsDance, from this and other posts, I find you to be quite the fellow literary/historical/philosophical spirit. What was your major, if I may ask?

 

[MaenadsDance]

MaenadsDance, from this and other posts, I find you to be quite the fellow literary/historical/philosophical spirit. What was your major, if I may ask?

Well, I'm on the "nine year plan", so I don't really have one. I spent three years at a great books school out east studying classics, philosophy, history, etc, and now I'm getting a degree in biology, because the school I'm at now (a third-rate Cal State program) doesn't believe that "history of science" is a course that should actually transfer or count for any prereqs. Ah well.

And you?

 

[punkedoutriffs]

Well, I'm on the "nine year plan", so I don't really have one. I spent three years at a great books school out east studying classics, philosophy, history, etc, and now I'm getting a degree in biology, because the school I'm at now (a third-rate Cal State program) doesn't believe that "history of science" is a course that should actually transfer or count for any prereqs. Ah well.

And you?

I majored in English. Man, I wish I could attend a "great books school." I'm in my gap year now trying to read as many "great books" as I can before the Medicine train arrives.

 

[MaenadsDance]

I majored in English. Man, I wish I could attend a "great books school." I'm in my gap year now trying to read as many "great books" as I can before the Medicine train arrives.

The wonderful thing about the Great Books education is that you can still read 'em even if you're not enrolled in an official college program. I finished Anna Karenina this summer (after years of trying and failing to get through it - it was super worthwhile!) and am re-reading The Sun Also Rises right now before my semester starts and I no longer have time for pleasure reading. I will miss summer breaks when I'm finally in the world of Real Super Adult Work rather than minimum wage sandwich shop jobs.

 

[Freesia88]

Sure thing. Basically, historically, western religion marked suicide out to be a mortal sin. Although we do not necessarily profess this to be our current belief, there is a residual effect from the fact that it was once taken as FACT. The social stigma against it was so strong that although the specific logical reason for its existing in the first place has dissipated, the stigma still resides in our culture.

As an example, people who committed suicide would be denied a "Christian burial" in a church cemetery, and were presumed to be going to hell. The idea is, if you kill yourself you're a murderer AND you're denying the blessing of creation and spitting in God's face, so you're doubly damned. There's a whole long passage in Dante's Inferno where he's walking through the wood of suicides.

It's really interesting how quickly the Western world transitioned from antiquity, where suicide with honor was a big deal (Brutus falls on his sword rather than surrender to Marc Antony, Cato the Younger cut his guts open, was discovered by his relatives and patched up, and then TORE HIS INTESTINES OUT WITH HIS BARE HANDS again rather than live in a world where he'd be ruled by Caesar) to a world where suicide was considered an unforgivable sin.

I see what you mean. History is cyclical so perhaps we are returning to the era when ending ones own life, would once again be considered the honorable thing to do in order spare one's family and loved ones extended periods of anxiety, pain and expenditure...

 

[punkedoutriffs]

The wonderful thing about the Great Books education is that you can still read 'em even if you're not enrolled in an official college program. I finished Anna Karenina this summer (after years of trying and failing to get through it - it was super worthwhile!) and am re-reading The Sun Also Rises right now before my semester starts and I no longer have time for pleasure reading. I will miss summer breaks when I'm finally in the world of Real Super Adult Work rather than minimum wage sandwich shop jobs.

Loved both of those. Anna Karenina the movie is coming out w/ Kiera Knightley and Jude Law, dunno if you heard. Also, Great Gatsby w/ Leo Dicaprio and Carey Mulligan.

 

[McPhee]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/21/health/raison-suicide-tony-scott/

Written by a practicing psychiatrist in the wake of Tony Scott's (apparent) suicide. I found it a great read because it discusses suicide in practical terms and caters to both sides of the story. Pretty short too, which is a plus. I'd be curious to hear everyone's take on it. I'm admittedly neither the most educated nor biggest supporter of psychiatry but this definitely made me pause to reconsider some of the aspects of this small segment of the field.

Interesting read, particularly now with the sucide epidemic plaguing returned U.S. soldiers.

 

[ridethecliche]

The wonderful thing about the Great Books education is that you can still read 'em even if you're not enrolled in an official college program. I finished Anna Karenina this summer (after years of trying and failing to get through it - it was super worthwhile!) and am re-reading The Sun Also Rises right now before my semester starts and I no longer have time for pleasure reading. I will miss summer breaks when I'm finally in the world of Real Super Adult Work rather than minimum wage sandwich shop jobs.

God damn I love hemingway.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

God damn I love hemingway.

Have you seen Woody Allen's "Midnight in Paris?" It's just how I imagine he'd be.

 

[Bangersandmash]

That is a fascinating article and to be honest, I think the "fear" revolving around suicide goes much deeper. People are afraid of death itself and can't bear to think of not living. Think of sensationalized media battles over people in comas. I recall a fact from a study that some astronomical % of lifetime health care for the average person is spent in the last month alive. Terminally ill euthanasia is outlawed, yet the alternative is suffering for a few months without real treatment.

I ask why. I don't even believe in an after life to sit here and say "Embrace heaven" or something like that, but people are just way too scared to let go. People who want to cry that suicide is selfish are selfish themselves. People who can't accept that they may die tomorrow haven't lived their life the way they wanted.

I may be a little radical in my thinking, but I think from certain philosophical/classical viewpoints, death shouldn't be as taboo as it is. Modern medicine is great, but it has really created a soft generation.