Interesting news from Seattle

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pseudoknot

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I know I would never even get a second look from UW but that would be the dream job for me!! My husband and I have been looking for "a reason" to move to the Seattle area.
 
Interesting. Note that it said that he's not totally retiring - just going to 60% time. With that in mind, its going to take time to change the culture at Harborview. UWMC is better, and what will probably happen is that both locations will combine to host one program.

I think some of the letters to the editor on the link from the blog post say it best. There are many in Seattle that STILL don't understand why Harborview needs an EM program - they say if they do just fine with consulting everything to specialists and having new grad IM docs as attendings, then why change? Of course, this is blatantly incorrect reasoning. I've had conversations with other residents at UWMC about what I do in the ED, and their comment is that "that's not how we do it at Harborview". That "Harborview way" is SO entrenched that it will probably be a hurdle for some time after Copass is 100% retired.

Will UW/Harborview eventually have an EM program? Probably. With the culture the way it is, though, its going to be years, IMO.
 
EM in Washington state? I'd be there in a heartbeat.

I will go on the record and say that if they had an EM residency program TOMORROW I wouldn't hire any of their grads for my group for at LEAST 5 years.

Most of the time when people are hesitant about "new programs" it's really just misplaced scepticism.

In this case, I would advise staying away until at LEAST the RRC put a place like this on permanent approval.
 
I will go on the record and say that if they had an EM residency program TOMORROW I wouldn't hire any of their grads for my group for at LEAST 5 years.

Most of the time when people are hesitant about "new programs" it's really just misplaced scepticism.

In this case, I would advise staying away until at LEAST the RRC put a place like this on permanent approval.

That's a pretty strong statement, but I have heard some very concerning things about EM in Seattle. Although all those things were 3rd hand info at best, they may warrant your hesitation. So are you speaking about all new programs, or just the ones that start at notoriously anti-EM hospitals?
 
That's a pretty strong statement, but I have heard some very concerning things about EM in Seattle. Although all those things were 3rd hand info at best, they may warrant your hesitation. So are you speaking about all new programs, or just the ones that start at notoriously anti-EM hospitals?

Oh! I'm just speaking about this new program in particular. Most of the time, people get nervous and new programs and shouldn't -- I can think of some recent great examples of 'new' programs which have really blossomed over the past 5-8 years.

But this PARTICULAR place would make me queasy. Too much institutional bias for it to be good right away. You would get bad ER experience (attendings not used to giving ER residents enough autonomy) AND bad experience on off service where the attendings think of you as an accidental specialty.

Uh-huh. Stay away the first 5-10 years if this place ever get a residency program in EM. And it's not just me that feels that way.... ask other attendings, academics, and even on the CORD web-serv this gets bantered about.
 
EM in Washington state? I'd be there in a heartbeat.

Don't hold your breath. It's YEARS out -- at LEAST three. And there will still be turf battles for who does airway, reductions, and on and on and on. Even the person HIRED to start the EM residency has to get credentialed FROM ANESTHESIA before she can do an intubation. . .it is an uphill battle, and I'd wait until things shake out before I got too excited. BUT, with that being said, we are all in GREAT positions to be taking faculty jobs by the time it gets going, because residency and/or fellowships will be completed by then.
 
I'm training at Cinci now with hopes of going back to Seattle to take Copass' job with Medic One direction, Airlift NW, and Harborview ED director! Just playing, but it would be a sweet spot to have. I think the real problem is that it is a culture that Copass has created and while he is the top dog there are a lot of people under him with similar views. You have to remember that the majority of attendings at harborview are IM trained (they have a couple EM trained new grads from a few years back) and they are going to fight hard. If they lose their position there is nowhere in the country where an IM attending can walk into a level I trauma center and be an attending (for damn good reasons--how much ob/gyn do IM attendings know, how many shoulder reductions have IM attendings done, what about supervising the chest tube insertion in the trauma patient before the trauma attending arrives from home call, even better what about paging anesthesia stat to the ED overhead multiple times and waiting for the anesthesia team to arrive while your trauma patient aspirates blood because what do IM attendings know about trauma ariways?). I could go on forever! It is the craziest system you could imagine. Not to mention that about 1/2 of their attendings are new grads just putting in some hours before they do their endocrinology or gi fellowhips! just what I want, a new IM grad taking care of trauma patients in a level I trauma center. How many surgery months do you think IM residents get in training? Thankfully they shelter the new docs from the more acute resus bays. Most IM residents only do 1 or 2 months in the ED, so they should be well versed in the initial w/u of emergent patients. Yes they know medicine, but EM is much different otherwise we would just do an IM residency! UW does have a hospital on the actual UW campus that does have EM attendings that have trained at good programs. And at UW they are allowed to work as real EM docs, but their volume is low (~35k) and they see minimal trauma and no peds because children's is up the road. I'd love to come back to UW, but I'm not about to work at HMC where I have to consult out everything, can't do airways, and can't touch an ultrasound (yeah--when I rotated there 3 years ago they were doing DPLs on everyone and no FAST exams!!!!!!). It is amazing to me that one of the best med schools and hospitals in the country has a trauma center that functions in the 1960s. Ok, off my soap box for now. I can only hope that in a few years when I'm done it will be ready for change. Seattle would be an awesome city for a residency and it has some unique opportunities (I'm not sure there is another level I trauma center in the US that serves as much area as Harborview does---alaska, washington, idaho, western montana).
 
I'm training at Cinci now with hopes of going back to Seattle to take Copass' job with Medic One direction, Airlift NW, and Harborview ED director! Just playing, but it would be a sweet spot to have. I think the real problem is that it is a culture that Copass has created and while he is the top dog there are a lot of people under him with similar views. You have to remember that the majority of attendings at harborview are IM trained (they have a couple EM trained new grads from a few years back) and they are going to fight hard. If they lose their position there is nowhere in the country where an IM attending can walk into a level I trauma center and be an attending (for damn good reasons--how much ob/gyn do IM attendings know, how many shoulder reductions have IM attendings done, what about supervising the chest tube insertion in the trauma patient before the trauma attending arrives from home call, even better what about paging anesthesia stat to the ED overhead multiple times and waiting for the anesthesia team to arrive while your trauma patient aspirates blood because what do IM attendings know about trauma ariways?). I could go on forever! It is the craziest system you could imagine. Not to mention that about 1/2 of their attendings are new grads just putting in some hours before they do their endocrinology or gi fellowhips! just what I want, a new IM grad taking care of trauma patients in a level I trauma center. How many surgery months do you think IM residents get in training? Thankfully they shelter the new docs from the more acute resus bays. Most IM residents only do 1 or 2 months in the ED, so they should be well versed in the initial w/u of emergent patients. Yes they know medicine, but EM is much different otherwise we would just do an IM residency! UW does have a hospital on the actual UW campus that does have EM attendings that have trained at good programs. And at UW they are allowed to work as real EM docs, but their volume is low (~35k) and they see minimal trauma and no peds because children's is up the road. I'd love to come back to UW, but I'm not about to work at HMC where I have to consult out everything, can't do airways, and can't touch an ultrasound (yeah--when I rotated there 3 years ago they were doing DPLs on everyone and no FAST exams!!!!!!). It is amazing to me that one of the best med schools and hospitals in the country has a trauma center that functions in the 1960s. Ok, off my soap box for now. I can only hope that in a few years when I'm done it will be ready for change. Seattle would be an awesome city for a residency and it has some unique opportunities (I'm not sure there is another level I trauma center in the US that serves as much area as Harborview does---alaska, washington, idaho, western montana).


Dude...don't get me started! Seriously...

I know for a fact that they JUST hired a new "EM" doc, straight out of IM residency. TOTAL b.s.
 
Wow, I never knew this about Seattle. I travel down there once in awhile (2 hour drive) and love the city.

It is a great city. And unfortunately, that is the ONLY reason one would have for wanting to train in EM there if they ever got a residency. Hopefully over time, though, the hospital will be shamed into changing.
 
It is a great city. And unfortunately, that is the ONLY reason one would have for wanting to train in EM there if they ever got a residency. Hopefully over time, though, the hospital will be shamed into changing.
I will be very careful not to get sick/injured while in Washington state, lest I want to be cared for by a PGY-1 in internal medicine! :idea:
 
I will be very careful not to get sick/injured while in Washington state, lest I want to be cared for by a PGY-1 in internal medicine! :idea:

BUT, in all fairness to Copass, the pre-hospital care is arguably the best in the country. So the medics will take great care of you!!!
 
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