interesting scenario in haiti what would you do

[bravofleet4]

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http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/16/haiti.abandoned.patients/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

With reports of violence breaking out over the growing desperation unfolding in Haiti, these doctors left behind critically wounded patients after the UN informed them that their security was at risk. What would you do? You can say you were ordered to do so but as the CNN correspondent proves some people would argue that principles should override orders.

I realize, though, that this situation probably runs through the minds of anybody thinking of going through medical school with a scholarship from the military. I just think it's interesting b/c we're dealing with civilian doctors & nurses. Obeying the chain of command is one thing...

 

[murfettie]

I'd leave.
If the UN or the US Government issued evacuation order, I would leave.
But uhm.. why isn't UN projecting these doctors so they don't need to leave?

 

[JaneAustenFan]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/16/haiti.abandoned.patients/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

With reports of violence breaking out over the growing desperation unfolding in Haiti, these doctors left behind critically wounded patients after the UN informed them that their security was at risk. What would you do? You can say you were ordered to do so but as the CNN correspondent proves some people would argue that principles should override orders.

I realize, though, that this situation probably runs through the minds of anybody thinking of going through medical school with a scholarship from the military. I just think it's interesting b/c we're dealing with civilian doctors & nurses. Obeying the chain of command is one thing...

This would be a difficult decision. I would have stayed though.

 

[pdeco1]

You cannot help anyone if your dead. If your life is in danger you should leave until its safe to return.

 

[skiddoc]

I would have armed each of the doctors and stayed behind.

 

[ChiDO]

You cannot help anyone if your dead. If your life is in danger you should leave until its safe to return.

What do you do when the airplane loses cabin pressure. You put YOUR mask on first and THEN help people around you. You only have about 30 secs to put your mask on befoer you pass out.

Like Pdeco said, with so many injured individuals, you are vitally important in helping thousands since the demand >>>>>> supply. You are no good if you are dead.

As much as we are doctors to help others, you still need to look out for yourself and your family first and foremost, at least I would.

 

[NickNaylor]

A bit off topic, but while I laud Sanjay Gupta for doing this work there, some of his tweets and reporting are just ridiculous. He seems to be constantly tooting his own horn and describing a movie rather than a tragic situation. I'm hoping this is just because he's trying to make the news more "engaging."

 

[jvesco22]

I'd love to see any sane person stay around after knowing over 4,000 inmates escaped from the nearby prisons that got destroyed. The orders were issued for a reason

What's good about being possibly brutally murdered or raped, all in the name of your patients?

Please...live to see another day

 

[Bernoull]

A bit off topic, but while I laud Sanjay Gupta for doing this work there, some of his tweets and reporting are just ridiculous. He seems to be constantly tooting his own horn and describing a movie rather than a tragic situation. I'm hoping this is just because he's trying to make the news more "engaging."

I haven't seen the tweets, but I salute him for staying back to help and report. It's really honorable what he's doing..👍👍👍

 

[ILikeDrugs]

I'd get the hell out of there and go back to my family if I saw machetes coming my way. Eff that. You can't save the world.

 

[blaithnaid]

Gupta stayed for the publicity.

The Canadians and Belgians, etc, have to do what their ranking officer in-country tells them. End of story.

 

[DrBowtie]

Not difficult at all. You GTFO!

I wouldn't be there in the first place though.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Haiti is turning out to be worse then a war zone.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

I'm still waiting for the ultra pre-med to come in here and say "I would fight them all off!!! I would also be performing surgery and hugging Haitian orphaned babies at the same time!!!!"

 

[bannie22]

Depends. Patient condition, reasons for evacuation, sense of threat, other patients that require treatment... not an easy decision to make in front of a computer screen, but much easier on location.

 

[bannie22]

Also like to add that it was not the UN that called for withdrawals.

I dislike their position in these situations. They were not willing to offer peacekeeper support to the doctors working under such dangerous conditions. And they go on to protect their own ass by saying that they never requested any medical persona to cease work.

If I was the country supplying aid, I would definitely pull my doctors out of such a situation until the UN provides my men with a safe working environment, or at least safe enough that security does not deem it a risk. My countrymen's safety is of the utmost priority. Unnecessary risks that might lead to injury or loss of life will only cause unhappiness to the people back home.

 

[zeppelinpage4]

You cannot help anyone if your dead. If your life is in danger you should leave until its safe to return.

Agreed.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

The U.S. just sent over the USNS Comfort. It's a hospital ship and from the looks of the inside you would think that you were in a regular hospital. If I was a doctor I would do surgery from inside there and not in some makeshift hospital that gangs could overrun. It won't get there till the end of next week.

 

[FloatOn]

I'd love to see any sane person stay around after knowing over 4,000 inmates escaped from the nearby prisons that got destroyed. The orders were issued for a reason

What's good about being possibly brutally murdered or raped, all in the name of your patients?

Please...live to see another day

I'd get the hell out of there and go back to my family if I saw machetes coming my way. Eff that. You can't save the world.

Exactly. Trying to be the hero can get you killed, and your family and children back home will be spouseless and parentless.

A bit off topic, but while I laud Sanjay Gupta for doing this work there, some of his tweets and reporting are just ridiculous. He seems to be constantly tooting his own horn and describing a movie rather than a tragic situation. I'm hoping this is just because he's trying to make the news more "engaging."

My question was never answered on another thread...so is he even still working as a neurosurgeon in GA? Because he's on tv on awful lot...

 

[red10]

I'm still waiting for the ultra pre-med to come in here and say "I would fight them all off!!! I would also be performing surgery and hugging Haitian orphaned babies at the same time!!!!"

And instead of PSs about DABs they'll be writing about the DHBs? too soon😳? haha sorry

 

[JaneAustenFan]

In this scenario I still would have stayed. You can't help anyone either if they are all dead by the time you come back because you leave every time someone "thinks" there is some type of danger. It is important to keep an eye out for danger, but the whole damn place is dangerous. Why would someone even volunteer for relief effort if they weren't comfortable with putting his/her life at risk to help? I wouldn't be able to walk away from people begging me to stay and help. I put my trust in God, and I do not fear death. If people need help and I can help I will help. If anything happens to me, I know where I am going and I will do what is right not what is easy. Everyone is different. That's just me, and I respect the fact that some people wouldn't want to stay, but I would have stayed. Period.

 

[essaywhuman]

In this scenario I still would have stayed. You can't help anyone either if they are all dead by the time you come back because you leave every time someone "thinks" there is some type of danger. It is important to keep an eye out for danger, but the whole damn place is dangerous. Why would someone even volunteer for relief effort if they weren't comfortable with putting his/her life at risk to help? I wouldn't be able to walk away from people begging me to stay and help. I put my trust in God, and I do not fear death. If people need help and I can help I will help. If anything happens to me, I know where I am going and I will do what is right not what is easy. Everyone is different. That's just me, and I respect the fact that some people wouldn't want to stay, but I would have stayed. Period.

I respect where your heart is at, but that's a rather myopic viewpoint in a real-world situation. Day two or three of EMT-Basic class we learned all about scene safety...your worse than no good if your adding yourself to the victim list. I could agree with you and maybe stay if I thought the threat was overestimated, but it doesn't sound like your leaving much room for rationality or options...staying regardless of the situation is dumb. You can't save everyone, and you'll have a short frustrating career and a short life if you think like that. Edited to reflect that this is my biased pre-hospital em opinion...

 

[blaithnaid]

Edited to reflect that this is my biased pre-hospital em opinion...

Still entirely accurate.

Trusting to g-d to save you from lions usually gets you eaten.

 

[jvesco22]

Trusting to g-d to save you from lions usually gets you eaten.

 

[Burk]

I would have armed each of the doctors and stayed behind.

physicians with guns, that's ironic

 

[Gallix23]

I would have armed each of the doctors and stayed behind.

You can't just toss a physician an M-16 and wish them good luck, even if they only armed them with pistols (which would still be tough to use without proper training) they would easily get swarmed by the enemy and killed.

I would have followed orders, as someone said earlier, you can't help anyone if you're dead yourself.

 

[MB333999]

My decision to go or stay would be dictated by the apparant level of threat. If its too dangerous, yes its heroic of you to stay but your risking not only your life but also the lives of any future patients of yours. Like someone else said before, if I believed the level of threat was overestimated I would probably stay. But in this specific case I would have probably left, you have to trust that your security personnel who are part of your team are doing their job. I would most certainly give the UN and even my own country hell to send in military personnel to provide security so we can continue to treat the patients.

 

[2nite]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/16/haiti.abandoned.patients/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

With reports of violence breaking out over the growing desperation unfolding in Haiti, these doctors left behind critically wounded patients after the UN informed them that their security was at risk. What would you do? You can say you were ordered to do so but as the CNN correspondent proves some people would argue that principles should override orders.

I realize, though, that this situation probably runs through the minds of anybody thinking of going through medical school with a scholarship from the military. I just think it's interesting b/c we're dealing with civilian doctors & nurses. Obeying the chain of command is one thing...

I would have left, because I assume that the orders weren't given with the intention of hurting Haiti's people... and therefore had legitimate reasons behind them.

Regarding military-ness, I bet (but have no real reason to back this up... just a hunch) that even if they are civilians many are probably either retired military or part of organizations with definite chains of command.

Now, if I had a relative or something there, that would be a whole different story (unless, of course, I were in the military).


Boy, I just can't wait for my ethics course this semester!

 

[JaneAustenFan]

I respect where your heart is at, but that's a rather myopic viewpoint in a real-world situation. Day two or three of EMT-Basic class we learned all about scene safety...your worse than no good if your adding yourself to the victim list. I could agree with you and maybe stay if I thought the threat was overestimated, but it doesn't sound like your leaving much room for rationality or options...staying regardless of the situation is dumb. You can't save everyone, and you'll have a short frustrating career and a short life if you think like that. Edited to reflect that this is my biased pre-hospital em opinion...

I would have stayed. Like I said, that's just what I would have done in this situation. I would have assessed the situation and if there was no direct threat to my life I would have stayed regardless of orders given by the UN. If there was danger I would have to make a decision then and there what I would do. I can't say 100% that I would leave without trying to protect the people there. I want to live too, but whatever I did it would be my choice. There was no mention of any direct threat to the doctors, just a lot of rumors and fear. All I could do is do my best. I thought this thread asked people their opinions and I don't see why there is all this back and forth about a topic that really is a personal choice. I also don't understand why people like to throw around words like stupid or assume that people are trying to go above and beyond their job description just because someone wouldn't react the same way they would. As a human being, I would find it difficult to leave people who are in need because someone ordered me to leave based on uncertainty and fear. I don't think it is stupid to do a job you volunteered to do. I would have stayed in this circumstance.

 

[DrBowtie]

I would have stayed. Like I said, that's just what I would have done in this situation. I would have assessed the situation and if there was no direct threat to my life I would have stayed regardless of orders given by the UN. If there was danger I would have to make a decision then and there what I would do. I can't say 100% that I would leave without trying to protect the people there. I want to live too, but whatever I did it would be my choice. There was no mention of any direct threat to the doctors, just a lot of rumors and fear. All I could do is do my best. I thought this thread asked people their opinions and I don't see why there is all this back and forth about a topic that really is a personal choice. I also don't understand why people like to throw around words like stupid or assume that people are trying to go above and beyond their job description just because someone wouldn't react the same way they would. As a human being, I would find it difficult to leave people who are in need because someone ordered me to leave based on uncertainty and fear. I don't think it is stupid to do a job you volunteered to do. I would have stayed in this circumstance.

You're a doctor...not a martyr.

 

[Bacchus]

I would have followed orders. If there was/is threat there are a lot more factors to think about... such as your family and patients stateside.

 

[da8s0859q]

Obvious answer here. But about this comment:

physicians with guns, that's ironic

I wouldn't say so. I'm biased, but many pro-gun people are such because their intent is to protect life, not take it. It's just a matter of perspective.

For me, my interest in preserving life and well-being in no way clashes with my acceptance of the fact that there are people in this world who think nothing of harming the innocent and are to be defended against.

Besides... I mean, hey, nothing like accessorizing a pair of scrubs with an M-16 and a nice sidearm.

 

[teenmachinery1]

I'd love to see any sane person stay around after knowing over 4,000 inmates escaped from the nearby prisons that got destroyed. The orders were issued for a reason

What's good about being possibly brutally murdered or raped, all in the name of your patients?

Please...live to see another day

You risk sounding as stupid as your avatar suggests, when you think the danger from inmates during a prison break begins to approach similarity with the situation in Haiti.

Brutally murdered or raped in the name of patients? Seriously. What the eff are you talking about.

 

[red10]

You risk sounding as stupid as your avatar suggests, when you think the danger from inmates during a prison break begins to approach similarity with the situation in Haiti.

Brutally murdered or raped in the name of patients? Seriously. What the eff are you talking about.

The prison break was IN HAITI, genius.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2010/01/13/lawrence.security.haiti.quake.cnn?iref=allsearch

 

[2nite]

The prison break was IN HAITI, genius.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2010/01/13/lawrence.security.haiti.quake.cnn?iref=allsearch

 

[essaywhuman]

I would have stayed. Like I said, that's just what I would have done in this situation. I would have assessed the situation and if there was no direct threat to my life I would have stayed regardless of orders given by the UN. If there was danger I would have to make a decision then and there what I would do. I can't say 100% that I would leave without trying to protect the people there. I want to live too, but whatever I did it would be my choice. There was no mention of any direct threat to the doctors, just a lot of rumors and fear. All I could do is do my best. I thought this thread asked people their opinions and I don't see why there is all this back and forth about a topic that really is a personal choice. I also don't understand why people like to throw around words like stupid or assume that people are trying to go above and beyond their job description just because someone wouldn't react the same way they would. As a human being, I would find it difficult to leave people who are in need because someone ordered me to leave based on uncertainty and fear. I don't think it is stupid to do a job you volunteered to do. I would have stayed in this circumstance.

I know where you're coming from, but it kind of makes me think of someone getting mugged and deciding they will "stand up for whats right, fight the good fight, and be a scion of justice," and getting shot. No one is going to give you a medal. Is it easy to leave? No of course not! But is it going to help a single soul if you get killed? Also; NO! There are some unsavory decisions that must be made in emergency medicine and one has to be able to step back, think critically, and make them.
I'm not saying you're wrong per-say, but I don't think you really have an appreciation for the other side of this argument.

 

[jvesco22]

You risk sounding as stupid as your avatar suggests, when you think the danger from inmates during a prison break begins to approach similarity with the situation in Haiti.

Brutally murdered or raped in the name of patients? Seriously. What the eff are you talking about.

you must be ******ed or unaware. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Please read the post below yours and then talk, thanks. And if you don't want to post again, I understand...

 

[Poliscidoc]

I'm running as fast as I can and pushing the slow people down. Signed up to save lives not give mine.

 

[JaneAustenFan]

You're a doctor...not a martyr.

No, I am not a doctor yet. See this is the difference, I don't have some false sense of reality like some people on here who aren't doctors, but act like they are already. In the short time I have been on this site, there have been some really nice people on here, but there are some really neurotic and abnormal behaviors displayed by some members on here. As cute as it may seem to be obsessed with being a doctor, some people just take it to a whole new level. My whole identity does not revolve around the job description of a doctor. How the hell am I a martyr for choosing to sometimes stand my ground and not run when there is no obvious danger and people need help? That is like me calling people who wouldn't stay cowards. It is not my place to decide for someone else how much risk they should take. Martyr? I am not going to stand somewhere and let someone kill me either. Always the two extremes, never the middle. When someone volunteers to help he/she is supposed to go in organized and levelheaded. If you jump, or run or react to every rumor then what is really the point of being there? You feed into the fear and you don't end up helping anyone. There is either evidence that there is a direct threat or there is not.

 

[JaneAustenFan]

I know where you're coming from, but it kind of makes me think of someone getting mugged and deciding they will "stand up for whats right, fight the good fight, and be a scion of justice," and getting shot. No one is going to give you a medal. Is it easy to leave? No of course not! But is it going to help a single soul if you get killed? Also; NO! There are some unsavory decisions that must be made in emergency medicine and one has to be able to step back, think critically, and make them.
I'm not saying you're wrong per-say, but I don't think you really have an appreciation for the other side of this argument.

Thank God the world doesn't revolve around what you think or what I think for that matter. In this specific scenario I would have stayed. I don't think there is really anyone who signs up to do a job saying to themselves "I want to die." There are jobs that come with huge risks (firemen, policemen, military). And while they may not be seeking death, they realize that there is a possibility that they could die helping someone else. While doctors probably don't top that list in normal everyday work environment (some may), people volunteering for disaster relief (regardless of what capacity they are helping in) hopefully have considered that they are going into a dangerous situation to help and their lives are at risk.

Everyone has a limit of how much they will risk depending on the circumstances. Just because someone would risk beyond what someone else would does not make them a martyr. My brother basically said he would not crawl into a partially collapsed building made of concrete (unless it was to save someone like my mom or other family member or friend) to pull someone out, because he felt that with the amount of aftershocks it was way too risky. But there are images of ordinary people (civilians) climbing in and rescuing complete strangers. So just because my brother wouldn't do it (understandably) does that make the people who would martyrs? Does it make their actions stupid? Everyone has different levels of risk they are willing to take for their own reasons and it doesn't always involve ego or some medal. There are moments when split second decisions are made, and I would have stayed.

 

[JaneAustenFan]

I'm running as fast as I can and pushing the slow people down. Signed up to save lives not give mine.

Good for you. Stick to your convictions;I would never try and convince you otherwise. In this scenario, where there was no evidence of any direct threat, if you would rather run like hell still, run like hell just leave some of your medical supplies please.

 

[FloatOn]

My question was never answered on another thread...so is he even still working as a neurosurgeon in GA? Because he's on tv on awful lot...

So it turns out he still does put his training to use now and then:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100118/en_afp/haitiquakeusmilitarymedia

 

[thamsenman]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/16/haiti.abandoned.patients/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

With reports of violence breaking out over the growing desperation unfolding in Haiti, these doctors left behind critically wounded patients after the UN informed them that their security was at risk. What would you do? You can say you were ordered to do so but as the CNN correspondent proves some people would argue that principles should override orders.

I realize, though, that this situation probably runs through the minds of anybody thinking of going through medical school with a scholarship from the military. I just think it's interesting b/c we're dealing with civilian doctors & nurses. Obeying the chain of command is one thing...

Society provides an educational investment in physicians that enables them to aid and assist the health of other people over the course of their lifetimes. It's a responsibility and a gift.

I think if the physician is endangered, he/she ought to leave because if he is seriously damaged or killed, he is unable to give others advice, treatment, or help that could potentially save many more lives.

The greater good would demand that the physician leave.