- Joined
- Dec 17, 2003
- Messages
- 5,886
- Reaction score
- 22
latest issue...looking at predictors of who passes the ABA certification examination.
the results did not surprise me.
the results did not surprise me.
interesting study in Anesthesiology
- Thread starter militarymd
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2005
- Messages
- 2,538
- Reaction score
- 8
I would have thought it was the CA-2/3 ITE, not the CA-1 ITE scores.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 7,247
- Reaction score
- 3,087
I am pretty sure that what attracted MMD's attention to this study was that they mentioned that a combination of:
Exam performance, residency program length of certification, gender, and country of medical school were the most reliable predictors of who will be board certified in a shorter period of time.
This is where this thread is heading.
Exam performance, residency program length of certification, gender, and country of medical school were the most reliable predictors of who will be board certified in a shorter period of time.
This is where this thread is heading.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,176
- Reaction score
- 33
Seems that I was an exception or better said a false negative....
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,176
- Reaction score
- 33
I think he means the "other" factors. I'm not suprised either.
Men did better on Part 1. Women did better on Part 2.
Wonder why?
Anyway, you can read it here...
http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiology/pages/currenttoc.aspx
hey Dream - I was looking fore more pictures...👍
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2003
- Messages
- 5,886
- Reaction score
- 22
I was censored by the ALL mighty moderators here for expressing what they deemed to be non-PC opinion.......which I know to be simple FACT.
So this time...I'm just referencing an article published in OUR journal....with DATA supporting my OPINION.
So this time...I'm just referencing an article published in OUR journal....with DATA supporting my OPINION.
Just remember the years the study is pertinent for.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 7,247
- Reaction score
- 3,087
🙄
Really?
Those bastards censored you?
Shame on them!
Did they steal your lunch money too?
Really?
Those bastards censored you?
Shame on them!
Did they steal your lunch money too?
One could probably say that this study validates common sense: once a good student (from a decent medical school), always a good student....?
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 7,247
- Reaction score
- 3,087
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,176
- Reaction score
- 33
In the broad name "FMG" I would make a difference between immigrants that they graduated in other country and Americans that they weren't accepted in a US based school. Exception here is the Americans that chose to study to a well renowned school outside of the US school. And also there are students that they studied in Caraibe and become excellent physicians.
Just google some big names as Racz or Mervyn Maze...
They are FMG-s or are they the exception that makes the rule stronger?
Regarding the women in anaesthesia - as I say to my wife - they are smarter than men...I appreciate their sacrifice of professional career for the family.
Regarding the Arabs in anesthesia - big names all over - graduates in Syria, Egypt, Iran and so on.
It is a matter of passion, patience, willingness to take a lot of sh*&*it and hard work.
P.S. : I do agree that is frustrating for an American to have as competition a foreigner most of the time with 0 debt...It is an exploitation of the system - I will react the same in my original country to have other physicians coming from abroad. I agree that is not fair...It is dilution ( as we say in stock market)...
- Joined
- May 10, 2009
- Messages
- 1,255
- Reaction score
- 4
.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2007
- Messages
- 696
- Reaction score
- 6
I agree with 2win, especially on the highlighted sentence. I did a lot of studying, and worked hard. I had passion because my dad wanted me to go into business, rather than medicine. He finally caved during my second year of med. school. I didn't get into med. school so I went to St. George's. Most of my residency classes (internship in prelim medicine and anesthesiology residency) were FMGs -- some IMGs. Both places I was told by the program director that our classes were excellent. My vice-chair for anesthesiology is pro-U.S. grad but even he was relatively disappointed with his hand-picked U.S. grads, and preferred working with my class.
I am not saying FMGs are better, but they tend to be harder working/have more passion because they were willing to go outside the system to reach their goals.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 7,247
- Reaction score
- 3,087
Well, you as a foreigner did not take any jobs from Americans and the only reason you were allowed to get into a residency program was because they could not find an American to fill your spot.
They needed the cheap labor and you were the only option.
You worked harder than them, learned a new language, and passed the same exams they are required to pass.
So, don't feel sorry and don't apologize, you are a success story and this country is built on success stories like yours.
They needed the cheap labor and you were the only option.
You worked harder than them, learned a new language, and passed the same exams they are required to pass.
So, don't feel sorry and don't apologize, you are a success story and this country is built on success stories like yours.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,176
- Reaction score
- 33
Thank you Plank - It wasn't an apology - I just said that I understand.
I am the capitalist with a CAPITAL C. I don't know how hard I worked - at that time it was a challenge and I enjoyed what I was doing. And believe me - when I see the American residents I believe that they work harder than me.
And YES - I was cheap labor - "exploit the system"...but I am not frustrated - I had to pay for the chance to work here. This was valid a while ago - now they make the same money in Eastern Europe ( the good ones...). I have to say that I remember the days when I was delivering pizza and a 2$ tip brought a smile on my face...Now with 150$/hour ( at least) sometimes I get upset
.... USA is (and I hope to remain) much better than Europe.2win
No, there is simply less foreigners and the general level of the applicants is higher due to increased interest in the field.
BTW there is nothing politically incorrect in stating that it is harder for a foreigner to pass an oral exam, simply because it is in a foreign language( for most of them), which might be more difficult under stress.
As for the women part - I do not know, really, the difference is not statistically significant, so what are you, guys talking about? 😀
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2005
- Messages
- 8,022
- Reaction score
- 2,816
Dude, you ned to f*cking chill.
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2003
- Messages
- 5,886
- Reaction score
- 22
DATA is DATA.
You can call it names.....make excuses for it.....or whatever....
It's still DATA.....
You can call it names.....make excuses for it.....or whatever....
It's still DATA.....
😀
You didn't read about the parachute study, or did you?
It is obvious, this data they are providing. That's why it is ridiculous.
I would suspect that high ITE scores during your CB year ( actually at it's beginning) would have even more predictive value for the successful passing of written part )))))
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 7,247
- Reaction score
- 3,087
I don't think that every thread should be based on racism, and I don't think that if a moderator once told a guy to slow down on being a racist should be considered censorship.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,519
- Reaction score
- 3,173
It is logical, as well, that the residency program accreditation cycle length is positively correlated with board pass rate since board pass rate is one of the major determinants of length of accreditation cycle for the program.
As stated above, this is not earth shattering news, but it is nice to actually see some of the data.
As expected, programs that have long accreditation cycles are usually considered stronger programs. Therefore, they attract interest from the strongest and smartest candidates with the highest USMLE scores (a standardized exam just like the written ABA exam). These programs generally get many of their top choices in the match and thus the cycle continues ( a few get complacent and treat residents poorly trying to live off of reputation only and that occasionally causes well known programs to "surprisingly" go unfilled in the match). The rich get richer. With the high amount of interest in our field, there has been plenty of top notch candidates to spread over many of the good programs across the country. It won't always be that way.
As stated above, this is not earth shattering news, but it is nice to actually see some of the data.
As expected, programs that have long accreditation cycles are usually considered stronger programs. Therefore, they attract interest from the strongest and smartest candidates with the highest USMLE scores (a standardized exam just like the written ABA exam). These programs generally get many of their top choices in the match and thus the cycle continues ( a few get complacent and treat residents poorly trying to live off of reputation only and that occasionally causes well known programs to "surprisingly" go unfilled in the match). The rich get richer. With the high amount of interest in our field, there has been plenty of top notch candidates to spread over many of the good programs across the country. It won't always be that way.
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 6,749
- Reaction score
- 6,262
I'm so on your team right now. Hell, I've always been on your team. I like you. I completely agree about the racism coming from certain people on this board. Call them out!!
😍 😍
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,176
- Reaction score
- 33
choco - don't make me a racist if I'll tell you that blacks score less than whites in school. The message is not that blacks are less intelligent than whites ,as you know - the surrounding and the schools are worst than the one for whites. Going also with the family environment. The prisons are full of black people - and a lot of them have kids - tell me that they have the same chances to get great scores compared with a "normal" family.
Exceptions exists and sometimes a challenge in life makes a kid stronger.
And let's not continue this subject - we are smart people that already know this shi t.
And if you're so no racist I want to see you when you take a job in the hood.
call me then.
there are not blacks or whites - there is MONEY
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2003
- Messages
- 5,886
- Reaction score
- 22
I guess DATA...all by itself can be racist....
I guess....Anesthesiology....is a racist journal.....
I guess we should ignore everything we are taught in medical school...and only pay attention to the exceptions....
I guess all pretty blonds in their 30's, with no previious medical history have proximal LAD stents...and all old geezer retired Navy Captains with htn, COPD, etc...don't have CAD.
OK....Now that I got it all straight from the know-it-alls.....carry on.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 7,247
- Reaction score
- 3,087
Actually none of the things you mentioned is racist or intended to be racist by the authors, but your use of the article and the data is what is obviously racist.
This is a study with very little significance and many weaknesses and the only reason you are interested in it is because you imagined that it could support your racist, sexist and ******ed delusions.
This is a study with very little significance and many weaknesses and the only reason you are interested in it is because you imagined that it could support your racist, sexist and ******ed delusions.
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2009
- Messages
- 1,209
- Reaction score
- 1
Pardon me, (green and all) but I read the article thoroughly and reviewed the regression plots and I failed to appreciate any racist or misogynist elements in it.
I gleaned what I could from it and the take home message going forward for me was basically don't blow off the ITE as a CA-1 and assume that the early complacency will not be cumulative eventually.
I'm grateful that the study sheds some light on factors that affect ABA Part1/2 performance- that serves as a great heads up for me and my peers.
And I also don't see how posting this article here belies a malicious/prejudicial intent.
Just my objective view. Not intended to offend anyone or take sides.
I gleaned what I could from it and the take home message going forward for me was basically don't blow off the ITE as a CA-1 and assume that the early complacency will not be cumulative eventually.
I'm grateful that the study sheds some light on factors that affect ABA Part1/2 performance- that serves as a great heads up for me and my peers.
And I also don't see how posting this article here belies a malicious/prejudicial intent.
Just my objective view. Not intended to offend anyone or take sides.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,519
- Reaction score
- 3,173
I don't see anybody trying to make this racist except the ones who are calling it so.
The article simply points out what any good program director already knows:
Individuals who have a track record of success on measurable metrics such as grades and standardized tests in medical school will most likely continue to have success in those same categories as they advance through their training. For example, if you aced the USMLE, you probably have the ability to do well on the ITE AND the written portion of the exam. Those who have the baseline medical knowledge and drive to succeed and do well on the written exam will most likely be driven to succeed on the oral portion as well. If they attend a residency program with a track record for success, that is probably one of the factors that attracted them to that program. They are in an environment that fosters success and where success is expected and demanded. Programs such as that are usually competitive to get into and the people who select the residents most likely rarely take academically risky candidates (ie failed or borderline USMLE scores or poor grades and evaluations) because they have a choice. Programs that go further down their rank list don't have those same choices to accept only the academic "sure things," therefore, their pass rate for the boards may not be as high. The art of it is to learn to avoid the academic sure things that are sociopaths. We all know they are there. Look at your med school classmates and you can probably point out several.
There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but most people who struggle with the MCAT and the USMLE will also struggle with the written exam. Likewise, those who aced these exams will most likely do well on the ITE and writtens unless they just get uncharacteristically lazy during their residency. I have seen a lot of scores and have been in this environment for a while. These concepts I have listed almost always hold up. Most can predict on match day which of their residents will struggle with the ITE over the next 4 years. This has been my experience over the last 10-12 years.
LIke I said earlier, nothing earth shattering in the article, but nothing racist either. Whether black or white or IMG, if they struggle with exams, they will probably struggle with the written exam. If they are from a program with a long accreditation cycle, it is probably a self fulfilling prophecy. The program selected the top candidates (high grades and scores on USMLE) because they could (ie didn't have to go far down their rank order list).
The article simply points out what any good program director already knows:
Individuals who have a track record of success on measurable metrics such as grades and standardized tests in medical school will most likely continue to have success in those same categories as they advance through their training. For example, if you aced the USMLE, you probably have the ability to do well on the ITE AND the written portion of the exam. Those who have the baseline medical knowledge and drive to succeed and do well on the written exam will most likely be driven to succeed on the oral portion as well. If they attend a residency program with a track record for success, that is probably one of the factors that attracted them to that program. They are in an environment that fosters success and where success is expected and demanded. Programs such as that are usually competitive to get into and the people who select the residents most likely rarely take academically risky candidates (ie failed or borderline USMLE scores or poor grades and evaluations) because they have a choice. Programs that go further down their rank list don't have those same choices to accept only the academic "sure things," therefore, their pass rate for the boards may not be as high. The art of it is to learn to avoid the academic sure things that are sociopaths. We all know they are there. Look at your med school classmates and you can probably point out several.
There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but most people who struggle with the MCAT and the USMLE will also struggle with the written exam. Likewise, those who aced these exams will most likely do well on the ITE and writtens unless they just get uncharacteristically lazy during their residency. I have seen a lot of scores and have been in this environment for a while. These concepts I have listed almost always hold up. Most can predict on match day which of their residents will struggle with the ITE over the next 4 years. This has been my experience over the last 10-12 years.
LIke I said earlier, nothing earth shattering in the article, but nothing racist either. Whether black or white or IMG, if they struggle with exams, they will probably struggle with the written exam. If they are from a program with a long accreditation cycle, it is probably a self fulfilling prophecy. The program selected the top candidates (high grades and scores on USMLE) because they could (ie didn't have to go far down their rank order list).
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2008
- Messages
- 1,050
- Reaction score
- 6
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2003
- Messages
- 5,886
- Reaction score
- 22
you mean........... be like you and go to nudie bars and pay for women to talk to me?
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 6,749
- Reaction score
- 6,262
Almost in complete agreement here. Except no job in the hood for me. A little too rough, not my kinda scene. How does that make me a racist?
Seriously though most of us know what mil was inferring to as he is always very open and blatant about it. Someone so highly educated but still so darn ignorant.
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2009
- Messages
- 1,209
- Reaction score
- 1
dude, have you seen this movie? I hear it's really good. Even Glenn Beck gives it 4 thumbs up
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2003
- Messages
- 1,735
- Reaction score
- 1,167
I know one Black who scored better than 97% of everyone else. I do see the logic in this statment 2 win. It would be better to state that people who come from a high socioeconomic background score better then people whom are less privaledged. I love hearing from guys like you whom expect a black resident to screw up, it has motivated me all my life. I came from an institution riddled with racist epitaths( Dr Prince I do not think your 230 would make my rank list), one of the reasons I ranked them dead last.
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2008
- Messages
- 1,050
- Reaction score
- 6
you need a hobby.. or something my friend. And every guy pays for it somehow. Your paying for it.. You are just too closed minded to realize it. It doesnt have to be as obvious as you think. Stop paying the mortgage at your house and stop paying for your wifes lifestyle and see how quick she closes the store down, if she hasnt already.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,176
- Reaction score
- 33
"I love hearing from guys like you whom expect a black resident to screw up"
Here you are wrong. I expect a black resident who got in the program without a political intervention do do BETTER than the rest. Reason - he is smart and motivated to overcome adversities. He worked hard to get here.
GOOD LORD!
Guys, you all need to chill out - how could the study, the results of which are just stating that IMGs score worse on the oral part of the exam ( which is freaking obvious - they have to take an exam in a foreign language - a stressful exam) makes somebody gloating on the results racist? The IMGs are all different colors, patterns and shapes - why the heck everyone here has immediately one race vs the others in mind?!?
Guys, you all need to chill out - how could the study, the results of which are just stating that IMGs score worse on the oral part of the exam ( which is freaking obvious - they have to take an exam in a foreign language - a stressful exam) makes somebody gloating on the results racist? The IMGs are all different colors, patterns and shapes - why the heck everyone here has immediately one race vs the others in mind?!?
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 6,749
- Reaction score
- 6,262
You are new here I think. So maybe you should look up some of militarymds previous posts and see why we think the way we think about him. His opinions about minorities and affirmative action and how we don't measure up are quite blantant. So therefore when HE posted about this topic, most of us knew what he was inferring to in regards to the study. That's just how he rolls and he's proud of it. At least behind a computer anyway
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2003
- Messages
- 5,886
- Reaction score
- 22
You are new here I think. So maybe you should look up some of militarymds previous posts and see why we think the way we think about him. His opinions about minorities and affirmative action and how we don't measure up are quite blantant. So therefore when HE posted about this topic, most of us knew what he was inferring to in regards to the study. That's just how he rolls and he's proud of it. At least behind a computer anyway
my....aren't we sensitive....I wonder why?
go ahead....look up my posts...
I've always stated that my OPINIONS are simply based on FACTS on MY PERSONAL observations....experience.
As we are taught to do in medicine.
You guys just want to go against what we are taught...just because it is not PC.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 7,247
- Reaction score
- 3,087
The only reason why he posted this study here is to start another thread about xenophobia, and bigotry.
It's very interesting when you see a a guy who is a member of a minority himself, an immigrant who feels so strongly against other minorities!
This feeling of disgrace towards his background in my opinion is parallel to his feelings of inferiority about his anesthesia and critical care training that he expressed openly on the nurses forum.
It's very interesting when you see a a guy who is a member of a minority himself, an immigrant who feels so strongly against other minorities!
This feeling of disgrace towards his background in my opinion is parallel to his feelings of inferiority about his anesthesia and critical care training that he expressed openly on the nurses forum.
D
deleted50478
On the one hand, you shouldn't expect people to ignore systematic discrimination just because it favors certain protected minorities who would prefer to view preferences as a right and to define those favoring equal treatment as racist (the 'logic' of that is beyond me).
On the other hand, it is beyond question that some minorities get preferential treatment based on skin color and nothing else, so there is little to discuss about it.
Bottom line- people care about the effects of policies on them, not right and wrong. No amount of argument is going to convince anyone when they really just don't care about data or ethics.
Some people have a hard time seeing wrongs without trying to point them out. My guess is that Mil is one of these people and linking this article is his way of fighting injustice in some small, ineffective, but hard to resist way.
On the other hand, it is beyond question that some minorities get preferential treatment based on skin color and nothing else, so there is little to discuss about it.
Bottom line- people care about the effects of policies on them, not right and wrong. No amount of argument is going to convince anyone when they really just don't care about data or ethics.
Some people have a hard time seeing wrongs without trying to point them out. My guess is that Mil is one of these people and linking this article is his way of fighting injustice in some small, ineffective, but hard to resist way.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 7,247
- Reaction score
- 3,087
What injustice?
He is a foreigner! he benefited from this country's "political correctness" that he is now criticizing!
There is no other country in the world where a Chinese immigrant could achieve what someone like MMD has achieved, and the only reason why he could do that is because he was given the opportunity to do it, where is the injustice in that?
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2009
- Messages
- 1,209
- Reaction score
- 1
So true! My Ex got a full ride/gov's minority scholarship from middle school that guaranted acceptance to and fully paid for college and med school. All he had to do was make >18total on the MCAT. I hated him
But how could I resist those beautiful blue eyes, his honey-blonde hair and that 6'4" meaty German frame?😉
- Joined
- May 10, 2009
- Messages
- 1,255
- Reaction score
- 4
.
Last edited:
But he wasn't given this possibility because he is Asian.
Last edited:
You are new here I think. So maybe you should look up some of militarymds previous posts and see why we think the way we think about him. His opinions about minorities and affirmative action and how we don't measure up are quite blantant. So therefore when HE posted about this topic, most of us knew what he was inferring to in regards to the study. That's just how he rolls and he's proud of it. At least behind a computer anyway
No, I am not new. I am simply amazed how could the results of this study be so double-twisted to fit the racism paradigm 😕
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 7,247
- Reaction score
- 3,087
He was not denied that opportunity despite being a foreigner which means he actually benefited from that political correctness.
This is not what happens in many other countries as you know.
If some other minority is getting more benefits it's OK for him to demand more, but he should not condemn the other groups who happen to be more politically vocal than his minority.
After all he was never a slave, he was never denied access to public places based on his appearance, and his grandparents could sit anywhere they wanted on the bus, so he might have less bargaining power than other minorities.
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2007
- Messages
- 3,084
- Reaction score
- 19
Plankton:
You demonstrate yet another concept you do not understand: underrepresented minority.
-copro
You demonstrate yet another concept you do not understand: underrepresented minority.
-copro
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2009
- Messages
- 1,209
- Reaction score
- 1
Good question and my point exactly.
no fantasies.
Hubby is the most mature and most secure man there is. Period. And I am honored to be his wife. I love him, I look up to him and I respect and obey him.
And he knows that.
He has no need to be insecure.
I think he, and others, were able to get the opportunity to be a physician in this country not because of political correctness, but because this country has severe shortage of physicians - pure and simple.
I do not want to get into the racism debate because, forgive me, I have seen neither the differences of the outcomes for the ABA part 2 exam based on race, nor could I decipher why Mil is gloating on these results, since he is an IMG himself.
Being and IMG neither equals being a minority, nor is it a sign of the underprivileged social background for the vast majority of them - quite the opposite most of the time.
Therefore I do not feel that the racist accusations fit in here - because we are talking about an absolutely different social group - definitely not the ones you've had in mind.
p.s. Talking about IMGs I mean the ones like Mil himself, like 2win or myself - people, who became physicians in their home countries, or somewhere else, and who then came to this country, not Americans, educated in foreign medical schools.
- Joined
- May 10, 2009
- Messages
- 1,255
- Reaction score
- 4
.
Last edited:
Similar threads
