International schools that are not AVMA accredited

[Trematode]

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I was doing some research on international veterinary schools when I came across a website that listed all of the veterinary schools around the world. I decided to look at some of the schools, just for the heck of it. I did a search on SDN for related threads and could not find much information. Members are really only interested in applying to AVMA-accredited schools (the Caribbean Schools used to be an exception).
To be more specific, the University of Pretoria caught my eye. I also found this thread on google: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-394736.html

I cannot apply to AVMA-accredited international schools because of the cost. I am in debt from undergrad, my parents are not well-off, and I only have access to student loans (which will not even give me enough to cover the cost of living for my local school) and bank loans. University of Pretoria is cheaper than my local school (if I did the math right).

I know I am going out on a limb here, but I want to explore all of my options. Right now, I am trying to decide between going further into debt to raise my average for vet school, move to another area for a year and gain residency to increase my chances, or giving up and moving on to something else (vet school will not count grad-level courses and my undergrad courses start to expire soon). Has anyone considered applying to an international school that is not AVMA-acredited?
Thank you. 🙂.

 

[orca2011]

I don't really know too much about the non accredited schools because I was not really interested in attending one. However, I have talked to several vets who have advised against it due to the cost of the test that you will need to take to practice in the US. It costs several thousand dollars in the end (at least that's what I think they told me) and the test tends to me more difficult and way more hands on. They said part of the exam is actually a practical. And then if you fail, you have to retake it and spend all the money again.

Just something to consider as well.

 

[Trematode]

Is that test required to practice in Canada? I have heard of that test and met someone who had failed the spay portion and went on a volunteer trip to pass that portion of her test so she could practice in the US. Sounds nerve-wracking. .
The University is accredited in the UK and Australia. Does that make it easier to gain a job in those areas, or would it still make it difficult because I am not from either of those countries?

I'm in a personal delima of sorts (can't you tell?). I know a lot of people who just give up and go to tech school because they do not have the money to apply internationally. I do not want to settle. So I am grasping as straws, trying to find some sort of loophole. I also bought a lottery ticket for the draw tonight. .

I sent an email to the university. It does not hurt to ask.

Thank you.

 

[breenie]

I only have access to student loans (which will not even give me enough to cover the cost of living for my local school) and bank loans. University of Pretoria is cheaper than my local school (if I did the math right).

Local school = in state veterinary school?

The loans given to you when you apply for them for veterinary school cover the "cost of attendance" which includes tuition and living expenses. This might imply having a roommate, though.

The consequences of the debt are another story, but you should be able to get enough money to attend school in the United States. Am I missing something?

 

[jmo1012]

i wasnt under the impression that not AVMA accredited meant cheaper, but in the Caribbean you have St. Matthews in Grand Caymen and AUA (American University of Antigua) in Antigua

 

[Coquette22]

The consequences of the debt are another story, but you should be able to get enough money to attend school in the United States. Am I missing something?

Student loans in Canada are not what they are in the USA. We have access to very little in the way of government loans. I'm getting the maximum - a little over $14,000 a year. To cover tuition, rent, food, etc. Beyond that, I'd need a student line of credit. I believe American students have access to both subsidized and unsubsized government loans? We don't. A small amount of government subsidized loans, and after that, it's line of credit or nothing.

Yes, Trematode, you do need to take that test to practice in Canada. We were told about it when they were briefing discussing the NAVLE (because Canadians get 2 tries to pass the NAVLE, and if you don't, you have to take the foreign vet route). The wait list is huge, and it costs something like $8000 to take.

ETA: Another thing to consider - you may end up using only line of credit for Pretoria. Government loans won't fund for everywhere, you'd have to look into that.

 

[lostbunny]

Hey- good on ya for looking at international schools!

I'm a Canadian in Australia, and first off I want to mention that it may take longer then 1 year to gain residency. I've been looking into residency (resident of the country for those of you who are thinking of 'resident' in medical terms) and it will take up to 3 years for me to become a permanent resident of Australia and thats only if everything gets approved in a timely fashion. I'm planning to stay in Australia (basically move here...) after my studies and I do want to study here in Australia.

Now, on the topic of AVMA accredited, I'm going that route simply because it opens more doors for where you can practice, and since I'm from North America and Canada is my only country of citizenship, then it makes sense for me to at least be able to practice in my own country, should anything change and I decide to go back, or for some reason can't stay in Oz. I guess I'm using it more as a safety net.

As long as you plan to stay in the places where your DVM is accredited (check to see what other countries Pretoria's DVM accredation goes with- is it JUST in S.Africa, can you also come to Australia, NZ, or other parts of Africa, or the Pacific Islands?) then there's nothing wrong with going non-AVMA accredited.

If you decide say to get your DVM at Pretoria, then you decide to come back to the USA, or Canada- then you'll have to write a bunch of tests that cost thousands of dollars and a few years to get everything completed. There's a thread in the vet forum about international non-recognized DVM degrees.

Good luck!! 🙂

 

[lostbunny]

Is that test required to practice in Canada?

I'm pretty sure as long as the school is AVMA accredited and you've written the NAVLE you can practice in Canada. If you went to a non-accredited school, you'd have to take the USMILE test to basically prove that what you've learned is up to par with what is taught at a Canadian vet school (all of which are AVMA accredited) .

The University is accredited in the UK and Australia. Does that make it easier to gain a job in those areas, or would it still make it difficult because I am not from either of those countries?

As long as you've got the skills, I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue finding work. Though I met a french vet and she said she was having alot of trouble finding work in the UK because there's not alot of work to go around. You'll need a special work visa to work as a vet here in Australia or in the UK, so keep that in mind, but cross that bridge when you get to it.

 

[jmo1012]

USMLE is a med school exam i think...

ECFEG is the main foreign licensing exam. it costs ~$8000 for the exam (not including travel and other expenses) and there is currently about a 1 year to a 1.5 year wait list.

 

[lostbunny]

USMLE is a med school exam i think...

****e... thanks! 🙂

 

[Trematode]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I knew there would be a catch to it, just based on the fact that people on this forum are only attending AVMA-accredited schools. 😛.

Now to address some of the comments/questions, according to the website, graduates of U. of Pretoria are recognized in Australia, New Zealand, UK, Tasmania and Malaysia (not very many options there).

U. of Pretoria is on the list of universities for student loans (have you seen the list? It is 74 pages long!)

To attend vet school here, tuition is ~$10 000/year. I was shocked to see that U. of Pretoria is LESS than that. Because all of the other institutions I have looked at is in the $25 000/year and up range, which I will likely never be able to afford. I was in contact with a vet student in Australia. I was told that majority of Canadians that attend are wealthy and/or are older have savings and spouses who work. Only a couple are living off of loans and not working. Most of them are intending to specialize or own their own practice because being a GP does not pay enough. That information was frightening. I wish I could just throw my hands up in the air and take out a massive loan, but the thought of not making enough to pay them off when I am out is frightening.

The thought of pursing a masters is equally as frightening though. .

 

[squeegee]

ECFEG is the main foreign licensing exam.

in case anyone out there needs the info, it's actually the ECFVG 🙂

http://www.avma.org/education/ecfvg/

 

[sunshinevet]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I knew there would be a catch to it, just based on the fact that people on this forum are only attending AVMA-accredited schools. 😛.

Now to address some of the comments/questions, according to the website, graduates of U. of Pretoria are recognized in Australia, New Zealand, UK, Tasmania and Malaysia (not very many options there).

U. of Pretoria is on the list of universities for student loans (have you seen the list? It is 74 pages long!)
.

Firstly I just wanted to say... Tasmania is part of Australia, not its own seperate entity for licensing purposes. Its just another state. 😛
Secondly University of Pretoria is a seriously awesome, quality university that produces awesome graduates. I suspect the only reason they're NOT AVMA accredited is because that takes a lot of time and money and bull**** and they're just not that way inclined at this point. Fully licensed in the UK and Aus though.

HOWEVER - No-one should take moving to south africa lightly just to save some money!!! (Not implying you are, but to move to south africa requires a LOT more forethought than moving to Aus or the UK).
I don't know how much news/info people in north america get, but being in perth, we tend to be the first stop for people fleeing south africa. No matter what picture the news likes to try and paint, its still pretty damn bad over there. And as a young, white, foriegn, (female?) you WILL be a prime target for all sorts of nasties. DO NOT MOVE unless university of pretoria can ASSURE your safety. And I mean that very, very, very seriously. Unless your staying on campus where there is armed security 24/7, i wouldn't do it.

As long as you've got the skills, I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue finding work. Though I met a french vet and she said she was having alot of trouble finding work in the UK because there's not alot of work to go around. You'll need a special work visa to work as a vet here in Australia or in the UK, so keep that in mind, but cross that bridge when you get to it.

Just wanted to add that the job market here in Australia is fairly tight for vets, and is probably going to get quite bad over the coming years, so keep that in mind if your thinking of coming here on a permanent basis. 🙂

 

[Trematode]

Firstly I just wanted to say... Tasmania is part of Australia, not its own seperate entity for licensing purposes. Its just another state. 😛

I think I knew that and was wondering why the site listed it separately. .

HOWEVER - No-one should take moving to south africa lightly just to save some money!!! (Not implying you are, but to move to south africa requires a LOT more forethought than moving to Aus or the UK).
I don't know how much news/info people in north america get, but being in perth, we tend to be the first stop for people fleeing south africa. No matter what picture the news likes to try and paint, its still pretty damn bad over there. And as a young, white, foriegn, (female?) you WILL be a prime target for all sorts of nasties. DO NOT MOVE unless university of pretoria can ASSURE your safety. And I mean that very, very, very seriously. Unless your staying on campus where there is armed security 24/7, i wouldn't do it.

You are right. I do not know a heck of a lot about living in South Africa. Really, only what I see in the movies and what I hear from people who visited different parts. I did not think about asking when posting this thread, but thank you for bringing it up. I have heard all sorts of things about attending SGU and Ross in the Caribbean on SDN, but did not stop to think that a large, modern institution that accepts internationals could be more dangerous than in the Caribbean. I am not even 0.001% committed on even applying. Like I said, I'm grasping at straws here because my financial situation will not allow me to go anywhere besides my local school. Also, my family is barely supportive of me spending $120 000 to attend school here, let alone somewhere halfway around the world. I got them and myself used to the idea of SGU, but once I realized I could not get loans to cover the costs, I pretty much left the idea of applying behind.

Another thread that popped up on Google: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-546802.html

 

[jmo1012]

in case anyone out there needs the info, it's actually the ECFVG 🙂

http://www.avma.org/education/ecfvg/

wow....i feel like an idiot.

 

[Braki]

Have you considered another Canadian school? WCVM's tuition and school fees together are $8000 this year. Not as cheap as Pretoria, but a bit cheaper than AVC. Moving to Saskatchewan is probably also quite a bit easier than moving to South Africa.

 

[lostbunny]

HOWEVER - No-one should take moving to south africa lightly just to save some money!!! (Not implying you are, but to move to south africa requires a LOT more forethought than moving to Aus or the UK).
I don't know how much news/info people in north america get, but being in perth, we tend to be the first stop for people fleeing south africa. No matter what picture the news likes to try and paint, its still pretty damn bad over there. And as a young, white, foriegn, (female?) you WILL be a prime target for all sorts of nasties. DO NOT MOVE unless university of pretoria can ASSURE your safety. And I mean that very, very, very seriously. Unless your staying on campus where there is armed security 24/7, i wouldn't do it.

Good point!! Definately didn't even think about that- I've got a friend who grew up in S.A and after the stories she told me, it seems like a really scary place to live unless you've grown up there!

I think I knew that and was wondering why the site listed it separately. .
I have heard all sorts of things about attending SGU and Ross in the Caribbean on SDN, but did not stop to think that a large, modern institution that accepts internationals could be more dangerous than in the Caribbean.

I don't even think I'd class the Caribbean in the same 'dangerous-ness' as South Africa. But then again- people travel and backpack all over the world. But definately a good point to think about seriously as Sunshinevet said.

 

[lostbunny]

Have you considered another Canadian school? WCVM's tuition and school fees together are $8000 this year. Not as cheap as Pretoria, but a bit cheaper than AVC. Moving to Saskatchewan is probably also quite a bit easier than moving to South Africa.

Just wanted to point out that not all Canadian schools will accept Canadians unless you're a resident of that area. For example I'm from Ontario so I can only apply to OVC- I CANNOT apply to UPEI (for example) because the way the government funding works, they don't support students not from the maritimes. You're not allowed to apply as an international student either.

The only way would be to become a resident of that part of the country (PEI, Sask, etc) which involves living there for 12 months without studies- if you weren't born there, or lived there previously.

This is is what I learned a few years ago when I was looking into applying to other schools- may have changed since then, but I doubt it.

 

[Trematode]

Just wanted to point out that not all Canadian schools will accept Canadians unless you're a resident of that area. For example I'm from Ontario so I can only apply to OVC- I CANNOT apply to UPEI (for example) because the way the government funding works, they don't support students not from the maritimes. You're not allowed to apply as an international student either.

The only way would be to become a resident of that part of the country (PEI, Sask, etc) which involves living there for 12 months without studies- if you weren't born there, or lived there previously.

It has not changed. I am toying with the idea of moving to gain residency to my local school, but the only way I will do it is if I find some responsible people to live with. I doubt I could get a good paying job with just a Bachelors degree. I had to keep an apartment for two summers while working a minimum wage job and I could barely afford to keep it. I do not want to put myself in that situation for entire year. Also, not many people are moving to gain residency. They are either staying in the province to upgrade or settling for the vet tech program. It makes me think that gaining residency is not as easy as it seems. I am still considering it and I have plenty of time to make that decision. At this point, by the time I gain residency, all of my first year courses will have expired and I will have to re-take them, so that is something I have to think about. It might be beneficial in the end, because the two courses responsible for lowering my average will have expired and I get to retake them. .

Believe it or not, my family were more thrilled to have me go to the Caribbean than to Manitoba (which I heard was the easiest province to get into WCVM from). Apparently the crime and drugs are very bad out there? I don't know. Never been there... and I do know know anybody who has been there.

There is somewhat of a loophole. If I were a part-time student, I could gain residency. But part-time = no student loan, and AVC will not count part-time courses anyway.

Right now, I am all over the place. I am trying to realistically figure out what my options are and weigh the pros and cons before making a decision.

 

[Braki]

Yes, you do need to gain residency, but Saskatoon and Regina have the lowest unemployment rates in the country. It may be easier to find a job here than in other areas. Saskatchewan and Manitoba have the fewest number of applicants applying for their spots, so going to either of those provinces would be your best bet. The crime rate is higher, but speaking for Saskatoon, the crime happens on one half of the city, and it's pretty safe if you're on the other side.

 

[yann]

Vet I work with today mentioned about his friend who's a second year in a vet school in Budapest...so just as a possibility to you and others that may want to consider a cheaper option in a much safe environment, here it is!
I'm going to research this school my self. Budapest is an AMAZING city. And low cost of living!

http://www.studyhungary.hu/index.php?mid=20&show=men

Only drawback is that 1. not AVMA accredited and 2. it's 5 and a half years.

They accept applications until February so there's still time for anyone who wants to apply!

 

[breenie]

Vet I work with today mentioned about his friend who's a second year in a vet school in Budapest...so just as a possibility to you and others that may want to consider a cheaper option in a much safe environment, here it is!
I'm going to research this school my self. Budapest is an AMAZING city. And low cost of living!

http://www.studyhungary.hu/index.php?mid=20&show=men

Only drawback is that 1. not AVMA accredited and 2. it's 5 and a half years.

They accept applications until February so there's still time for anyone who wants to apply!

Is it taught in Hungarian? That's potentially a problem...

 

[Trematode]

According to the site, they have over 1000 veterinary students. The course is taught in 3 languages, English being one of them.

 

[breenie]

According to the site, they have over 1000 veterinary students. The course is taught in 3 languages, English being one of them.

Go there! Dang. From what I've heard, Hungary is pretty cool.

 

[Trematode]

Breenie, you just made me lol 🙂
From what I read, you have to write an English exam... that is not offered in Canada. It is offered in the U.S. I would have to fly to the US to take a basic biology/chemistry exam? Gross 😛

 

[orca2011]

Go there! Dang. From what I've heard, Hungary is pretty cool.

Agreed! I visited Budapest while abroad and it's a really neat city. Although the Metro Police people are pretty intense. We had a minor run in with them...but some of the metro cars make up for it. They're from the cold war/WWII time period so it's kind of cool. And then you have all the Hungarian baths you can relax in.

 

[yann]

Pretty cool right??
I might even apply, if I get rejected to all the schools i applied to this cycle.

And noticing the first yar curriculum includes courses a lot of us has already taken, I wonder if we can skip those classes and go on to other stuff. I don't want to take org chem again...lol

 

[Trematode]

I do not want to have to take it again either!
I wonder what your stats should be if to be considered competitive.

 

[theunraveler]

University of Queensland is not AVMA accredited yet but soon will be.

 

[Trematode]

I wish I could afford to go there! 🙁.

 

[LdT]

Hi,
I am from South Africa, and I did my undergrad and PhD at the University of Pretoria... unfortunately NOT at the vet school 🙁 A few things to keep in mind...
1. The DVM program at the UofP is longer than in North America. They now take students directly out of high school, so it's 6 or 7 years compared to 4 years.
2. Yes, the crime rate is horrible and the vet campus is situated in a rural area on the outskirts of Pretoria, which I consider to be even more dangerous than living in a city. I am now living in Canada only due to the horrendous crime rate and the violent nature of the crimes. Otherwise I would have gone back to do my DVM there!!!
3. But, you will probably be living on campus, so you will be mostly insulated from all that.
4. It is a great school, and you will have a fabulous time!
Good luck 🙂

 

[Trematode]

Hi LdT. Thank you for that information. I appreciate it. 🙂.
I did some number crunching and getting into my local school might be possible if I keep working as hard as I have been working.
Just a curiosity: if you have a 4 year science degree for instance, would you have to do all 5-7 years of these international programs? Seems like a waste to do a science degree if you have to to it all over again.

 

[sunshinevet]

University of Queensland is not AVMA accredited yet but soon will be.

ive just gotta say... how soon is "soon" lol. UQ has been getting AVMA accred "soon" since *I* was applying for vet school - over 4 years ago now!!!

Hi LdT. Thank you for that information. I appreciate it. 🙂.
I did some number crunching and getting into my local school might be possible if I keep working as hard as I have been working.
Just a curiosity: if you have a 4 year science degree for instance, would you have to do all 5-7 years of these international programs? Seems like a waste to do a science degree if you have to to it all over again.

You will probably be able to get exemption for a few classes, but surprisingly few. If there is an "introductory" year (like the 1st year of 6 at murdoch) you would be able to skip that. Once the actual vet course has started though, not so much. A few people in my class got exempt from biochem, maybe 2 from nutrition and a few from micro. Thats pretty much it, just because their classes would just miss some of the things we were going through. And because all the classes are mixed together (ie, you take biochem same time you take anatomy) you can't skip ahead years, you just take one less class.

 

[PetPony]

You will probably be able to get exemption for a few classes, but surprisingly few. If there is an "introductory" year (like the 1st year of 6 at murdoch) you would be able to skip that. Once the actual vet course has started though, not so much. A few people in my class got exempt from biochem, maybe 2 from nutrition and a few from micro. Thats pretty much it, just because their classes would just miss some of the things we were going through. And because all the classes are mixed together (ie, you take biochem same time you take anatomy) you can't skip ahead years, you just take one less class.

So with some classes, if you've taken them in your UG, you can get out of them in vet school?

 

[breenie]

So with some classes, if you've taken them in your UG, you can get out of them in vet school?

She's referring to longer programs, like the ones in Australia, that take students right out of high school.

This isn't super common in the US, though at Mizzou there is one class a bunch of kids don't have to take first semester if they came here for undergrad.

 

[orca2011]

She's referring to longer programs, like the ones in Australia, that take students right out of high school.

This isn't super common in the US, though at Mizzou there is one class a bunch of kids don't have to take first semester if they came here for undergrad.

Penn also has a few classes you can be exempt from. Histology (although you will still have to do the lab portion of the class), Animal Nutrition and Developmental Bio are all courses they will consider exempting you from if you do well enough in the class in undergrad. I'm not sure how often this actually happens though, but they mentioned this to me when I was reviewing my application with them in July.

 

[sunnex3]

if i remember correctly, doesn't Penn also allow you to be exempt from Biochem if you did well in undergrad as well? like if you got an A?

 

[pooter]

if i remember correctly, doesn't Penn also allow you to be exempt from Biochem if you did well in undergrad as well? like if you got an A?

Nope, but they will exempt you from biochem if you already have a PhD in biochem or if you can pass a three hour oral exam taken in front of all 8 or so of the professors. They tell us it's "a very friendly exam," but somehow, most people opt to take the class. 😉 Biochem is nearly as big a deal here as Gross Anatomy; it has about twice as many lecture hours as dev bio and histo.

 

[sunnex3]

oops, yeah got my info mixed up then - i do remember that penn exempts you from nutrition though, which is nice because i took it a long time ago and did really well 🙂

 

[orca2011]

oops, yeah got my info mixed up then - i do remember that penn exempts you from nutrition though, which is nice because i took it a long time ago and did really well 🙂

Yeah, I'm taking it now just for the hell of it really, so hopefully I'll be exempt from it. It'll be nice to either not take a class or take an elective in place of it.

 

[sunnex3]

i actually enjoyed animal nutrition very much though 🙂 it was fun learning about how the different types of animals digest different nutrients. i took it during a 3 week period of time though during a summer program at cornell though, so i might not have an accurate view about it.