Internhsip/GPR as a back up for OMFS

[GenGts]

What are your thoughts on this. How do you arrange applying for internships and GPRs at the same time as OMFS? Don't they let you know about OMFS last and in that case is it ok to cancel your acceptance? Anyone been in this position? I could use dome help organizing all this, THANKS.

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[OMFSCardsFan]

What are your thoughts on this. How do you arrange applying for internships and GPRs at the same time as OMFS? Don't they let you know about OMFS last and in that case is it ok to cancel your acceptance? Anyone been in this position? I could use dome help organizing all this, THANKS.

Are you saying that you are going to apply primarily for a GPR, and only apply to OMFS as a back-up? Most OMFS internship spots aren't filled until after the match. Usually, those that don't match try to line up a solid internship to improve their attractiveness for the next year's Match. If you want to do OMFS and don't get in the first time around, don't waste your time in a GPR. Find an OMFS internship.

 

[setdoc7]

Are you saying that you are going to apply primarily for a GPR, and only apply to OMFS as a back-up? Most OMFS internship spots aren't filled until after the match. Usually, those that don't match try to line up a solid internship to improve their attractiveness for the next year's Match. If you want to do OMFS and don't get in the first time around, don't waste your time in a GPR. Find an OMFS internship.

I disagree. The OMFS internship is a non accredited position and is never a guarantee of acceptance into an OMFS program. Although the experience is heavy on outpatient dentoalveolar surgery, there is no automatic increase in PGY year after finishing, and the certificate is not acceptable for licensure in NY at least. I would do a GPR. If for nothing else, an increased knowledge of restorative will only add to surgical prowess in preprosthetics and implants.

 

[scalpel2008]

What are your thoughts on this. How do you arrange applying for internships and GPRs at the same time as OMFS? Don't they let you know about OMFS last and in that case is it ok to cancel your acceptance? Anyone been in this position? I could use dome help organizing all this, THANKS.

to maximize your chances at matching OMS, do an OMS internship.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

If you want to do OMFS and don't get in the first time around, don't waste your time in a GPR. Find an OMFS internship.

If you don't want to do OMFS, but want some further training in dentoalveolar surgery, there are plenty of GPRs which will provide that.

...there is no automatic increase in PGY year after finishing, and the certificate is not acceptable for licensure in NY at least. I would do a GPR. If for nothing else, an increased knowledge of restorative will only add to surgical prowess in preprosthetics and implants.

There's definitely no automatic increase in your chances of being accepted into OMFS if you spend another year doing general dentistry. The increased knowledge of restorative won't help your surgical prowess if you don't ever Match. Doing a GPR, deservedly or not, says that you are uncertain about OMFS. If you're serious about OMFS, you'll do an intern year and get the most exposure you can.

 

[setdoc7]

If you don't want to do OMFS, but want some further training in dentoalveolar surgery, there are plenty of GPRs which will provide that.



There's definitely no automatic increase in your chances of being accepted into OMFS if you spend another year doing general dentistry. The increased knowledge of restorative won't help your surgical prowess if you don't ever Match. Doing a GPR, deservedly or not, says that you are uncertain about OMFS. If you're serious about OMFS, you'll do an intern year and get the most exposure you can.

Did not think that a GPR means you are uncertain, but rather it gives you exposure to hospital dentistry, OR, OMFS, sedation, as well as restorative and other GP requirements. I did a GPR and went on to an OMFS program, and found both very rewarding. The extra year of doing restorative was worth it, as I still view all surgery with an eye toward the eventual restoration of the mouth. My friend did a GPR and then an intern year and finally got into a program. The point is there is no clear answer here and a lot depends on grades, board scores, and the applicant pool you are competing against. Some years are tougher than others. Two factors are static. Good luck.

 

[brycethefatty]

Do internships really give interns a chance to do anything or do you just hold suction for the residents all day?
Do you get to shuck teeth or do you just watch? Does it depend on the program?
I know you're pretty much everyone's b****, but in an internship do you actually get to DO, rather than watch?

 

[esclavo]

Did not think that a GPR means you are uncertain, but rather it gives you exposure to hospital dentistry, OR, OMFS, sedation, as well as restorative and other GP requirements. I did a GPR and went on to an OMFS program, and found both very rewarding. The extra year of doing restorative was worth it, as I still view all surgery with an eye toward the eventual restoration of the mouth. My friend did a GPR and then an intern year and finally got into a program. The point is there is no clear answer here and a lot depends on grades, board scores, and the applicant pool you are competing against. Some years are tougher than others. Two factors are static. Good luck.

With all do respect to setdoc, I couldn't disagree more. I think he must be a bright individual with great numbers. But giving general advise to all those really trying to pursue OMFS, if you want a SURE experience that will be viewed MORE WIDELY as a strong indicator of your career orientation, then the internship is the way to go. There are very few GPR's that will even remotely prepare you to be an excellent OMFS resident/surgeon compared to even an average OMFS internship. It takes just that much longer to beat the dentist out of an incoming resident when they come from an AEGD/GPR. The only time I would say do a GPR over an internship is if you aren't sure you want to do OMFS yet and you have great numbers that can equalize you with someone coming straight out of school with great numbers or someone who has just less than great numbers with an internship. Since this is how many programs think when they evaluate applications and interview, if you go to a GPR that is strong in OMFS (ie. you take a ton of call with OMFS or even primary OMFS call with hospital management of sick patients and multiple co morbidities) stress the OMFS part of your experience and say nothing of any other part of dentistry. Truthfully very few OMFS attendings/directors view it highly.

 

[setdoc7]

With all do respect to setdoc, I couldn't disagree more. I think he must be a bright individual with great numbers. But giving general advise to all those really trying to pursue OMFS, if you want a SURE experience that will be viewed MORE WIDELY as a strong indicator of your career orientation, then the internship is the way to go. There are very few GPR's that will even remotely prepare you to be an excellent OMFS resident/surgeon compared to even an average OMFS internship. It takes just that much longer to beat the dentist out of an incoming resident when they come from an AEGD/GPR. The only time I would say do a GPR over an internship is if you aren't sure you want to do OMFS yet and you have great numbers that can equalize you with someone coming straight out of school with great numbers or someone who has just less than great numbers with an internship. Since this is how many programs think when they evaluate applications and interview, if you go to a GPR that is strong in OMFS (ie. you take a ton of call with OMFS or even primary OMFS call with hospital management of sick patients and multiple co morbidities) stress the OMFS part of your experience and say nothing of any other part of dentistry. Truthfully very few OMFS attendings/directors view it highly.

The only qualm I have is the statement you have made about how omfs directors and attendings view things. Are you a director or attending? I am a program director (GPR) and have many friends who are OMFS directors, as well as other specialty directors, and I am not sure where you are getting your information.
Here is the way I see it. If you do an internship at a program (because you did not get into a program in the first place) you are putting all of your effort into getting into that program. If that program does not take you, after getting to know you and your work so well, why would anyone else want you? Further, with a good hospital based GPR you will get exposure to trauma, call, etc. and really know if the big comitmant to OMFS is really for you. You cannot "live the life" doing a 3 week externship, but a year of in house call will certainly give you some exposure. I have seen plenty of interns go from one year to the next without matching. Why not do a GPR year at a program that has OMFS. You can star there and get picked up, or then go on for the internship. Also, in NY you must do an accredited PG year to get a license, the internship is not accredited.

 

[NWOMS]

If your only goal is to become an oral and maxillofacial surgeon do the internship and not the GPR. Our interns function as 1st year residents except for going off service in the spring. They have a better understanding of pt evaluation and management than any GPR in the country. Also, our interns do a lot of wisdom teeth with sedation, FME, biopsies, the token implant case and scrub in on the OR cases. Most of our intern spots are filled before match. As Esclavo has said many times before, an internship won't erase poor academic performance.

 

[toofache32]

Do internships really give interns a chance to do anything or do you just hold suction for the residents all day?
Do you get to shuck teeth or do you just watch? Does it depend on the program?
I know you're pretty much everyone's b****, but in an internship do you actually get to DO, rather than watch?

I'm sure it varies, but in general the intern is another first-year resident. The interns at my program take primary call and go to the OR with the chief on any case that comes in on call....just like the other residents. Any case they find in clinic they can take to the OR as well....usually rhinoplasties but also an occasional fmx.

 

[toofache32]

The only qualm I have is the statement you have made about how omfs directors and attendings view things. Are you a director or attending? I am a program director (GPR) and have many friends who are OMFS directors, as well as other specialty directors, and I am not sure where you are getting your information.
Here is the way I see it. If you do an internship at a program (because you did not get into a program in the first place) you are putting all of your effort into getting into that program. If that program does not take you, after getting to know you and your work so well, why would anyone else want you? Further, with a good hospital based GPR you will get exposure to trauma, call, etc. and really know if the big comitmant to OMFS is really for you. You cannot "live the life" doing a 3 week externship, but a year of in house call will certainly give you some exposure. I have seen plenty of interns go from one year to the next without matching. Why not do a GPR year at a program that has OMFS. You can star there and get picked up, or then go on for the internship. Also, in NY you must do an accredited PG year to get a license, the internship is not accredited.

I'm not a PD, but an OMFS resident......still on the receiving end of what you guys send us. My program interviews very few GPR applicants, most have done an OMFS internship instead. Probably some self-selection there though.

An internship is NOT so you can get into that program. In fact, my program lets interns know at the beginning they will NOT be interviewed (because all our interns have NBDE<90 and >90 is required for this residency). The intership is to get more experience and a good letter of recommendation. I would be wary of those places which tend to take the interns. Galveston, TX used to do this and it simply made a 5-year program out of a 4-year program which is not a good thing.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

I am a program director (GPR) and have many friends who are OMFS directors, as well as other specialty directors, and I am not sure where you are getting your information.

I'm not a program director either. I have, however, gotten my information straight from the mouth of my program director. At my program, all the residents have an equal vote in how we rank our applicants, so I can also tell you that my fellow residents and I look at someone who has done an internship much more favorably than one who has done a GPR.

I hope you don't feel as though I'm criticizing GPRs. I'm not. I'm also not saying that you're wrong -- we're each entitled to our opinion. I don't feel that a GPR will prepare a person for an OMFS residency as well as an internship. Therefore, for someone who wants to be an OMFS resident, an internship would be a better use of that year. The two are not viewed equally from our end. Certainly those applying can listen to both of our opinions and make a determination of what they find to be better for them.

Do internships really give interns a chance to do anything or do you just hold suction for the residents all day?
Do you get to shuck teeth or do you just watch? Does it depend on the program?
I know you're pretty much everyone's b****, but in an internship do you actually get to DO, rather than watch?

In our program, the red-shirt interns have the exact same responsibilities as our matched interns. There is absolutely no difference.

 

[Drill2Fill]

I'm not a PD, but an OMFS resident......still on the receiving end of what you guys send us. My program interviews very few GPR applicants, most have done an OMFS internship instead. Probably some self-selection there though.

An internship is NOT so you can get into that program. In fact, my program lets interns know at the beginning they will NOT be interviewed (because all our interns have NBDE<90 and >90 is required for this residency). The intership is to get more experience and a good letter of recommendation. I would be wary of those places which tend to take the interns. Galveston, TX used to do this and it simply made a 5-year program out of a 4-year program which is not a good thing.

Why is that not a good thing?

 

[toofache32]

Why is that not a good thing?

Dental school applicants apply to these residencies but don't realize they are really applying for the internship. Why would you waste your money going to interview somewhere that historically takes their own interns instead of you? This is a feeder program. This lowers the amount of interest in that program from "regular" applicants. This is one of the reasons my PD doesn't take his own interns. And they know this from the beginning.

In theory, I could argue that such a program may be taking only the "weaker" applicants that didn't match anywhere and are now doing their internship. Now that program is made up of residents that couldn't get in anywhere else.

 

[GenGts]

Do you guys know which programs have internships that accept people after the match process? Also, which internships are the better ones? What are the chances of getting into OMFS straight after dental school?

 

[toofache32]

Do you guys know which programs have internships that accept people after the match process? Also, which internships are the better ones? What are the chances of getting into OMFS straight after dental school?

Go here to look for internships:

http://www.healthecareers.com/site_templates/AAOMS/index.asp?aff=AAOMS&SPLD=AAOMS

I think the majority of applicants are accepted straight out of dental school.

 

[Drill2Fill]

Is there any good out of doing an internship if you never make it into a program? Would it set you back since you haven't done regular GP stuff in awhile?

 

[S Files]

Is there any good out of doing an internship if you never make it into a program? Would it set you back since you haven't done regular GP stuff in awhile?

can't have your cake and eat it too 🙂 imo when gunning for the competitive specialties gotta go all out.

 

[esclavo]

I am not a program director but many programs (mine included) have the residents play a huge role in who gets invited for interviews and then give input on how the final rank list looks. While not being a program director, I have never encountered in all my OMFS experience (hustling OMFS stuff in dental school, externships, interviews, conversations/interviews with multiple program directors-one on one where they give frank/blunt advise, many conversations with many residents from coast to coast, 4 straight years of interviewing candidates from all over the country, and from reading the National Inquirer- when I go back and read this, I sound like an old reminiscing geeezer oh wait, I am....) I've never heard anyone breath a breath that says that a GPR or AEGD is on level ground with an internship..... a true internship though, not one of these "internships" that are more like supervising dental students and running an exodontia clinic with no call. A true internship, as described above, is where you are treated and expected to perform like a 1st year resident. I also have an aquaintence who did a GPR and it has been very, very painful first year in residency. This person did it at a noteworthy hospital in Chicago and let me tell you if you asked this person how much their GPR helped them, they'll tell you it got them through the first minute of residency. They tell me that they should have taken my sage advise and now they are paying to the ultimate farthing for their naive assumption 🙂 (sounds like Shakespeare) This person has said time and time again that if they could do it over they would have spent that year preparing for the radical change of becoming a resident by doing an internship. When interns from other programs come for interviews it is obvious they are a clear step above everyone else. The experience our intern gets will clearly give them a monster jump anywhere else. Pounded for a year- it is the steepest learning curve imaginable, but at the end of the year they are a total different health care provider. Not even the same person. I'd put our intern at the end of the year against any GPR grad in the country and they'd eat them alive, period. But the intership can't make up for mediocre part one board scores.... an internship can help out a person in the 86-89 range but even then, it isn't a sure thing.....

 

[GenGts]

I am not a program director but many programs (mine included) have the residents play a huge role in who gets invited for interviews and then give input on how the final rank list looks. While not being a program director, I have never encountered in all my OMFS experience (hustling OMFS stuff in dental school, externships, interviews, conversations/interviews with multiple program directors-one on one where they give frank/blunt advise, many conversations with many residents from coast to coast, 4 straight years of interviewing candidates from all over the country, and from reading the National Inquirer- when I go back and read this, I sound like an old reminiscing geeezer oh wait, I am....) I've never heard anyone breath a breath that says that a GPR or AEGD is on level ground with an internship..... a true internship though, not one of these "internships" that are more like supervising dental students and running an exodontia clinic with no call. A true internship, as described above, is where you are treated and expected to perform like a 1st year resident. I also have an aquaintence who did a GPR and it has been very, very painful first year in residency. This person did it at a noteworthy hospital in Chicago and let me tell you if you asked this person how much their GPR helped them, they'll tell you it got them through the first minute of residency. They tell me that they should have taken my sage advise and now they are paying to the ultimate farthing for their naive assumption 🙂 (sounds like Shakespeare) This person has said time and time again that if they could do it over they would have spent that year preparing for the radical change of becoming a resident by doing an internship. When interns from other programs come for interviews it is obvious they are a clear step above everyone else. The experience our intern gets will clearly give them a monster jump anywhere else. Pounded for a year- it is the steepest learning curve imaginable, but at the end of the year they are a total different health care provider. Not even the same person. I'd put our intern at the end of the year against any GPR grad in the country and they'd eat them alive, period. But the intership can't make up for mediocre part one board scores.... an internship can help out a person in the 86-89 range but even then, it isn't a sure thing.....

Are you done already just working in the hospital? Which program are you at? What kind of score is competitive for Boards part 1? and Does it make a difference if you're a Canadian student?

 

[dentH]

applications for internships are due after the match date?? where can i find more info regarding the names of hospitals and number of spots that are available?! Thanks! gettin really nervous about applyin this summer

 

[psiyung]

Is there any good out of doing an internship if you never make it into a program? Would it set you back since you haven't done regular GP stuff in awhile?

Dude, it looks like you havent even taken the DAT yet. Worry about specializing in OMFS once you get to know the field a little bit better

 

[Drill2Fill]

Dude, it looks like you havent even taken the DAT yet. Worry about specializing in OMFS once you get to know the field a little bit better

Dude, I don't even plan to specialize. Just reading the forums, and had a question. I make post like this in the Pods and Opts sections, that doesn't mean that I want to apply to them.

 

[psiyung]

This just in. The new program at Einstein may want to have their students go to medical school for the entire 4 years! This according a good friend of mine at LSU, so take this info with a grain of salt.

 

[DiaperDandy]

Go here to look for internships:

http://www.healthecareers.com/site_templates/AAOMS/index.asp?aff=AAOMS&SPLD=AAOMS

I think the majority of applicants are accepted straight out of dental school.

Looks like a lot of internships don't get posted here. Is that right? There are only about ten posted, but as far as I know there is at least one internship spot at most programs.

Are a lot of internship spots just offered to un-matched and un-ranked interviewees?

 

[setdoc7]

This just in. The new program at Einstein may want to have their students go to medical school for the entire 4 years! This according a good friend of mine at LSU, so take this info with a grain of salt.

Bad, wrong info. Period.

 

[setdoc7]

so, OMFS CArds Fan and Esclavo, how many of your interns, both current and previous actually got into OMFS programs? I would be interested in this info. I do agree that this may be a boost for someone with ok boards and grades, but it often attracts those with slim chances to begin with who might be better served in another venue. Again, I will point out that this is not an accredited year, and not good for the required post doc year to get a NYS license. If you do the internship and don't match in OMFS, you're in limbo.

 

[toofache32]

so, OMFS CArds Fan and Esclavo, how many of your interns, both current and previous actually got into OMFS programs? I would be interested in this info. I do agree that this may be a boost for someone with ok boards and grades, but it often attracts those with slim chances to begin with who might be better served in another venue. Again, I will point out that this is not an accredited year, and not good for the required post doc year to get a NYS license. If you do the internship and don't match in OMFS, you're in limbo.

Both the interns at my program matched into their first choice. Last year's intern matched into his 2nd choice. The ones before then all matched in the 5 years I've been here, although I don't know to which ranking. I think the NYS license thing is a separate issue and shouldn't be a factor in the decision unless you really want to work in NY.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

so, OMFS CArds Fan and Esclavo, how many of your interns, both current and previous actually got into OMFS programs? I would be interested in this info. I do agree that this may be a boost for someone with ok boards and grades, but it often attracts those with slim chances to begin with who might be better served in another venue. Again, I will point out that this is not an accredited year, and not good for the required post doc year to get a NYS license. If you do the internship and don't match in OMFS, you're in limbo.

This year, one decided not to enter a Match list. He decided against continuing in oral surgery and pursue general dentistry instead. He hadn't applied during dental school because he hadn't totally committed to OMFS. Although you may look at his situation as an unfortunate waste of a year, he looks at it as confirmation of his decision. Our second intern was also applying for the first time this year. I know that he hadn't matched, and our program director was trying to help him get a post-match spot. I haven't been around recently, and I don't know where that went.

The year prior, we had no red-shirt interns. The interns from three years ago both matched (not with our program) after being here for a year. Further than that, I'm not sure.

 

[esclavo]

so, OMFS CArds Fan and Esclavo, how many of your interns, both current and previous actually got into OMFS programs? I would be interested in this info. I do agree that this may be a boost for someone with ok boards and grades, but it often attracts those with slim chances to begin with who might be better served in another venue. Again, I will point out that this is not an accredited year, and not good for the required post doc year to get a NYS license. If you do the internship and don't match in OMFS, you're in limbo.

Our intern this year decided not to enter the match. I was ticked because I have pumped 7 months of my life into making her shine like a diamond. She went to 6 interviews and was invited to interview at every place she applied except 1. In the end she just didn't want to commit to OMFS for 4-6 more years. She is kind of a free spirit. She had a 92 on part one boards and she is sharper than a razor blade. She did a GPR for a year before she came here. She said she learned more in 3 weeks here than she did in 1 year of running around in a hospital as a "5th year dental student" as she called it. She actually is blowing our first year resident away right now. If I had it my way, I'd send our first year packing and get her to stay. But our first year is another "GPR" grad who still struggles to think critically like a surgeon. She desperately could have used a year as an intern instead of that GPR. She wouldn't be in the fix she is in.... completely behind the 8 ball! I find it incredibly challenging to work the dentist out of these newbies and get them to think like a surgeon....a lot of deer in the headlight looks coming my way. Dental school makes you think 90% about the procedure and 10% about the rest of the patient. In OMFS, I find myself thinking 65% about the patient health/comorbidities/meds/physiology and about 35% about the actual procedure. Dentistry develops great technical and procedural skills but in residency, my critical thinking skills have been those which have grown the most....

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

Dental school makes you think 90% about the procedure and 10% about the rest of the patient. In OMFS, I find myself thinking 65% about the patient health/comorbidities/meds/physiology and about 35% about the actual procedure. Dentistry develops great technical and procedural skills but in residency, my critical thinking skills have been those which have grown the most....

Well put...