Internship Hours

[JumpHigherLivie]

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Hey everyone -- I was talking to a friend of mine, a recent grad, who was telling me about her internship hours -- she's logging in over 100 hours a week working at the clinic. I was sort of floored by this because I know that (human) surgical interns are capped at 70 hours per week, we are taught in surgery class that after only gettting x amount (I forget the exact numbers, but certainly it was more than what she is getting) of sleep it's equivalent to performing surgery legally intoxicated (which I think is what spurred the 70 hour cap in human medicine). I haven't been able to find an AVMA position on this (the number of hours we could be capped at working per week in the clinic).

Is this a typical internship experience in vet med and what are people's thoughts on the apparent lack of AVMA input (or if there is input on it and I just haven't found it).

Thanks! 🙂

 

[elefante7]

Hey everyone -- I was talking to a friend of mine, a recent grad, who was telling me about her internship hours -- she's logging in over 100 hours a week working at the clinic. I was sort of floored by this because I know that (human) surgical interns are capped at 70 hours per week, we are taught in surgery class that after only gettting x amount (I forget the exact numbers, but certainly it was more than what she is getting) of sleep it's equivalent to performing surgery legally intoxicated (which I think is what spurred the 70 hour cap in human medicine). I haven't been able to find an AVMA position on this (the number of hours we could be capped at working per week in the clinic).

Is this a typical internship experience in vet med and what are people's thoughts on the apparent lack of AVMA input (or if there is input on it and I just haven't found it).

Thanks! 🙂

I can't answer your question about internships but I know that SAVMA is working nationally to set standards about how many hours a 4th year student can work per week. So those kinds of guidelines are in place but I think they are usually just suggestions and not hard and fast rules.

 

[Bill59]

I was sort of floored by this because I know that (human) surgical interns are capped at 70 hours

Actually it's 80 hr, averaged over a 4 week period (up to 88 hr in some cases) per ACGME guidelines, which are voluntary. Some states also have regulations.

But no, there is no similar oversight of veterinary internships regarding duty hours or anything else. Each program can pretty much do what they want. I don't think the AVMA has a position on this and it wouldn't really matter if they did, because they have no authority over internships.

I would guess 80 hours/week is about average but there are certainly places where interns routinely exceed this because of overnight call.

 

[alliecat44]

I just started my internship and am on one of the more demanding rotations. I get there at 6am and leave anywhere from 8pm to 11pm.....six days a week. That's over 80 hours that you're actually scheduled for and significantly more when you have to stay late which is almost every day.

Other rotations (dermatology) aren't as demanding and are more like 60 hours/week, but then you also throw in a shift or two of day ER on the weekends with the easier rotations, so........a good week seems like it'll be 70 hours/week.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

II know that SAVMA is working nationally to set standards about how many hours a 4th year student can work per week.

I hope so. On some rotations in fourth year, I was easily getting 80+ hours a week, and once had to pull off 48 hours straight because of emergency and overnight call. And when you're exhausted all the time, you can't learn.

Thank goodness I'm in more of a 50-60 (at the busiest) hour a week residency. It allows me to have a life. I feel terrible for the surgery interns and residents, for example....I am sure they pass a 70 hour cap, by far.

 

[Angelo84]

My internship is very reasonable in terms of scheduled hours. We have 1.5 to 2 days off a week--totally off not on call so our weeks are generally 5 days a week of 11 hour shifts. On GP we have two 14 hours shifts. On overnights there are also two 14 hour shifts. Of course the above number is what we are scheduled for. If you have a bunch of inpatients getting in at 7am for 8am rounds isn't going to work and you don't always (or often) leave exactly at your scheduled time. Overall though I really enjoy my internship so far and think they do a good job of balancing learning and case coverage with being functional human beings!

 

[JumpHigherLivie]

Thanks for all of the replies and clarifications guys! I really appreciate it! Do you think that regulating these types of things (either in clinics or as an internship and residency) is something that veterinary medicine should be moving towards, and if so who would be the regulating body?

I realize that nothing here will change veterinarian medicine as we know it but I just think it's interesting to learn about what others think about the current process and how it could be better in the future.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[dvmsara]

Did she mean that she was on duty for 100 hours? This seems impossible. However, I can see how she may be putting in that much time during some weeks, when you count in time spent doing paperwork when she is technically not "on the clock." I know medical records are often an enormous time-suck, at least where I went to school.

 

[Bill59]

7am to 9 pm, 7 days a week gets you close to 100 hr. Throw in an overnight or 2 and it's even easier.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

7am to 9 pm, 7 days a week gets you close to 100 hr. Throw in an overnight or 2 and it's even easier.

Sounds like your average surgery internship

Ok, not average, but definitely within the realm of possibility. I would consider ~80hrs a week average for surgery or internal medicine interns, which are usually the biggest time-consumers. I have a feeling the AVMA is going to start looking into capping hours like they have done in human medicine. Of course, hospitals and attendings always find ways around that rule, but I think it would at least provide a starting point.

 

[Bill59]

The AVMA has no authority to regulate intern hours or anything else having to do with internships. And they have shown absolutely no interest in starting.

The various specialty boards regulate residencies and could limit hours, although I'm not aware of any that do so yet. Right now most of the regulations concern minimums, such as so many weeks of hospital duty, so many surgeries and so on.