Intra-program Dating

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The Angriest Bird

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Just trying to gather some opinions regarding this topic. I guess it's not regarded too much of a "taboo" since it does happen quite a lot. Considering the following factors:

- High stress/minimal free time [for dating] specialities: Ortho, Gen Surg, Neurosurgery
- "Trans-class" dating: i.e. PGY-2 dating PGY-1. I know it's not sexual harassment, but is it abuse of status?
- Two ENT interns married: how do you ever have kids in the next 5 years...
 
Just trying to gather some opinions regarding this topic. I guess it's not regarded too much of a "taboo" since it does happen quite a lot. Considering the following factors:

- High stress/minimal free time [for dating] specialities: Ortho, Gen Surg, Neurosurgery
- "Trans-class" dating: i.e. PGY-2 dating PGY-1. I know it's not sexual harassment, but is it abuse of status?
- Two ENT interns married: how do you ever have kids in the next 5 years...

It's kind of a "badish" idea, especially if it doesn't end very well. I mean the heart wants what the heart wants, but so far, in my experience and that I've seen in others, it hasn't really worked out well (yes, I went for the cookies in the cookie jar once myself). Which doesn't mean that it can't work, or won't work, but if you can find another dating pool, it's probably for the best. Just my $0.02.
 
The heart wants what it wants.

It is something that is out of your control. But if sparks are there, you need to very seriously think about it, and talk it over with people.

IMO, if you are a person who is low drama, and they are a person who is low drama, then even if it doesn't work, the damage wouldn't be so bad. Of course, bad relationships bring out the bad in people.

There are advantages, too. Like not being lonely. And if it does work, then you actually get to date someone you actually see from time to time. And they'd understand exactly what you are going through.

Good question about interyear dating. WOULD it be an abuse of power? Would that excuse be a weapon? How would you even go about talking about it, since you evaluate each other?
 
We had several interclass couples in my program over the years. One pair (one year apart) has been married for almost 5 years now, but had originally started dating when one was an intern and one was a student. Another pair got married after they met in residency (also a year apart), but one ended up switching specialties the following year, so they didn't remain in the same program after the first year they were together.

The 2 others were intern-chief pairings that were...um...short-lived bad ideas; however, they were never on service together during or after they were together and were generally on services in different hospitals. But they still got a lot of crap from other residents about that.
 
Why everybody asks about "after dating" ? Do you have to make a relationship after you date ?!
 
Why everybody asks about "after dating" ? Do you have to make a relationship after you date ?!

You continue to work with these people even after a break-up. You have split a lot of hard work with someone that you may find or may find you socially awkward now. Also, in the case of dating a chief, these are the people responsible for your calls and vacations amoung other things. The AFTER is an important consideration given that since most of the people any of us will ever date will not make it to a life-long committment. It's just a dose of reality.
 
The heart wants what it wants.

It is something that is out of your control.
But if sparks are there, you need to very seriously think about it, and talk it over with people.

IMO, if you are a person who is low drama, and they are a person who is low drama, then even if it doesn't work, the damage wouldn't be so bad. Of course, bad relationships bring out the bad in people.

There are advantages, too. Like not being lonely. And if it does work, then you actually get to date someone you actually see from time to time. And they'd understand exactly what you are going through.

Good question about interyear dating. WOULD it be an abuse of power? Would that excuse be a weapon? How would you even go about talking about it, since you evaluate each other?

Are you really a med student? You can't be clinical yet, then, because medicine is FULL of people that let little, if anything, out of control, if they can help it at all. There are TONS of people in medicine that still adhere to the job over anything else (I could tell you about when I was a resident at "Big Name Teaching Hospital" with people who would be, if it was legal, "married to the job").

The heart may want what it wants, but medicine is a jealous mistress - and, to that end, two words - Fatal Attraction.
 
Are you really a med student? You can't be clinical yet, then, because medicine is FULL of people that let little, if anything, out of control, if they can help it at all. There are TONS of people in medicine that still adhere to the job over anything else (I could tell you about when I was a resident at "Big Name Teaching Hospital" with people who would be, if it was legal, "married to the job").

The heart may want what it wants, but medicine is a jealous mistress - and, to that end, two words - Fatal Attraction.

Yeah, I am. I'm almost done with my Clerkship Year, actually. You?

There are also tons of residents who love their families more than their job. Or love the prospect of starting a family. Still great doctors. It all depends on specialty and personality.

Haven't you ever been in love? It isn't something you can consciously control. Doesn't matter what you are doing in life.
 
I've seen it go ok but when these relationships go bed it seems to go really bad. I had a classmate who had to go get someone else to call all of her consults to that one service because, well you know.
 
I can't tell you how many people in my med school class have dated over the years, some still together, some not. I'm engaged to a classmate I met in med school, and we'll be on different services in the same hospital for residency next year. (I imagine I'll have an easy time getting curbside consults from THAT service.) Plenty of other people in my class and others have had similar situations.

Obviously I hope you'd have the sense to not date a drama queen that you think will be blatantly unprofessional in the case of a break-up. There are people out there who would make your life hell if there was a bad break-up, but they're the same people who are melodramatic before you start dating them. If everyone's an adult about it, it shouldn't be that bad. And since your coworkers are the people you spend the most time with and have the most in common with, it's naturally going to happen.
 
I can't tell you how many people in my med school class have dated over the years, some still together, some not. I'm engaged to a classmate I met in med school, and we'll be on different services in the same hospital for residency next year. (I imagine I'll have an easy time getting curbside consults from THAT service.) Plenty of other people in my class and others have had similar situations.

Obviously I hope you'd have the sense to not date a drama queen that you think will be blatantly unprofessional in the case of a break-up. There are people out there who would make your life hell if there was a bad break-up, but they're the same people who are melodramatic before you start dating them. If everyone's an adult about it, it shouldn't be that bad. And since your coworkers are the people you spend the most time with and have the most in common with, it's naturally going to happen.

says the girl who hasn't started residency yet . . .
 
avoid dating people you work with. avoid it like the plague. when it goes south (like most do) it will be bad. people talking about you etc. you do not want that at your job.

your job is your job and your personal life being separate is what you want exactly.
 
A fellow intern/PGY-2 classmate pulled it off with a senior resident. Very successfully from what the both of them have been saying (friends with both of them.) They have been an item for 5 years now.

For me, and knowing my current luck with dating, intra-program dating to me is like Russian Roulette with an automatic weapon: Sure-fire way to disaster.
 
A fellow intern/PGY-2 classmate pulled it off with a senior resident. Very successfully from what the both of them have been saying (friends with both of them.) They have been an item for 5 years now.

For me, and knowing my current luck with dating, intra-program dating to me is like Russian Roulette with an automatic weapon: Sure-fire way to disaster.

hey ronin, how is everything going? i recall some months back you ran into some issues. is everything better?
 
a dirty bird ****s in it's own nest

I saw one relationship in MS1 go completely nuclear, although one half of that pair did have major issues. I have another friend that just got engaged to someone in the same year [PM&R and PCP Peds], which they do well b/c they're low key. I dated a guy a year ahead of me and it didn't work out but we're still friends.

I think the best advice is that you need to have very open communication and make an agreement at the beginning that if either one feels it's not working out they can bring it up and both can work through it or you can have an amicable split... to me letting personal issues interfere with patient care is the height of unprofessionalism, but not everyone sees it that way unfortunately.
 
I met my husband when I was the CT intern. He was the second year cards fellow on heart failure. I could tell you the dorky way we met -- it involved a misdiagnosed arrhythmia on my heart and his desire to ensure the overwhelmed surgical intern didn't kill any of the post transplant patients. Our first date was the last day of the month when we were both rotating off the services. We would have had minimal contact if the relationship had gone bad. Now we've got a kid and a mortgage, so it worked out 😍

I've seen it go bad, but I think part of it is how big the programs are. Where I trained there were 1300 residents and fellows. That's bigger than some small towns. Don't be stupid, but don't turn down a good thing, either.

Oh! And in the Neurosurg program, there are 3 couples that are both neurosurg residents. All are engaged/married.
 
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I can't resist the urge to respond to this topic, though I'm only a med student and my perspective isn't from coming a resident stand-point! Therefore, please forgive me for responding outside of the pond I normally would be swimming in! 🙂

With that said, I think it's slightly dangerous and ultra risky to date within specialties -- athough, on the other hand, anytime you get your heart involved with someone else you do somewhat take a risk! It is just 10 times harder to extract yourself from an uncomfortable situation when problems DO arise. Things always seem so good in the beginning -- you're flying high and so excited about things, but are potentially blind to the possibility that the **** could hit the fan.

Ok, while this doesn't exactly address your scenario about *residents* intra-specialty dating, I know a girl at another med school whose is now an MS4. Since she was a young girl, and from day one of med school, she knew she wanted to do ortho and therefore spent hours shadowing, volunteering, doing summer research and basically networking with all the people from the ortho department. Although she was only a med student, she seemed to "fit" and everyone from the department seemed to really like her around. Low and behold, during one of her volunteer experiences, she met a 4th year ortho resident, felt immediate chemistry, and they started a whirlwind romance. Apparently, while she was somewhat skeptical of dating him at first, but he pursued her aggressively. They both agreed that the situation was complex and they should proceed with caution...so they agreed to "go slow" and not be careless. She became really smitten and even though she knew the risks, she ignored her senses about he potential fall out that could occur. But she fell for him hard. He treated her so well and a future with him seemed incredibly promising, as they has shared very similar (unique) life experiences that were something they really bonded over. I guess I was sort-of her "ear" during this time. As she shared all the exciting details with me, I was trying to be a good friend by offering her a more realistic perspective on the situation. I didn't want to delude her into thinking this was destined to be a fairy-tale romance ending. But what do I know?

But then I became deluded too, because when I met the guy I realized he *was* indeed amazing! He was uber-smart, well-respected, successful, charming, and good-looking. But it made her and I nervous that he was so well-connected with the "higher-ups," and to complicate things further, was also part of resident selection committee (RED flag!) Even though she saw these things -- she wanted to believe what they had was real and would trancend the potential professional dilemma she was facing. She claimed she would be with him whether he was a garbage man, or the president. Ugh, she had it so bad!

Fast forward about six months...he starts doing the very common guy "pull-back" thing. While this is to be expected from a lot of men when the newness of a relationship wears off -- it drove her to insanity. There was something a little more peculiar about it than normal. To make a long story short, this guy had had been deceiving her the entire time. He had a friggin WIFE (!), whom he claimed he was getting a divorce from, but he failed to mention some pertinent details about this from very the beginning. He also had the easy excuse of being on-call and "busy" all the time -- and given the understandable demands of his residency training, who've would questioned that for one second!? Well, he broke up with my friend -- but not in a very direct, or mature way that gave her any sense of closure, rather it was a loooong drawn out hurtful process of silent treatment and her being forced to realize that these six months were a complete sham. Interestingly, the guy got his share of "karma" in the end because he was let go from the residency program. In a way, I do feel kinda bad for him, because he was clearly suffering from some very personal issues that no one could quite understand. Even without his presence around, she said she felt a strange "vibe" around the ortho people from then on...and whether that's paranoia or not, she said she wasn't in any position to confide in anyone in the department on a personal level or ask around to see if people knew about this or were talking about it behind her back. I feel really bad for her...because she is such a great girl and really had it all going for her. She's doing ok now... just matched into general surgery and is happy. Hopefully she can end up wherever she wants to go...

But that whole experience literally devastated her and it was like a part-time job for me to help her pick up the pieces. She turned into a completely different person than I knew and it shattered her self-esteem and had her questioning herself and her passion for ortho. I think she had a little PTSD over the whole thing. She couldn't even step foot in the ortho building for a good few months and she was actually contemplating dropping out of med school. I tried to beat it into her that this guy wasn't who she thought he was. He was poison, and his actions shouldn't even come close to impact decisions about her entire future. But it's easy to say that from the outside, I guess.

In a year's time, she came to her senses -- but not without investing a ton of time exhausing herself emotionally. And she even commented that she felt the whole thing had affected her capacity to perform at her fullest potential during MS3.

Anyway, I'm not attempting to generalize her situation by saying that something like this could happen to you or that you'd make the same choices that she did. I think most people would have RAN as fast as they could from that situation...much, much sooner than she did (although in her defense, she thought she had found true love). I'm just pointing out that when things go sour, especially if you have an intra-specialty romance, it can get REALLY, REALLY UGLY! And it could then take its toll on your performance, career prospects, or ability to focus.

I've had two short-term relationships during med school myself, and while they weren't serious -- they did deplete some time and energy out of me. I'm now taking a stand-point that I'm not going to date for the next few years -- maybe until I'm finished with intern year.

I think back to all both the good times and the pain I went through with seemingly great relationships that ended up failing and I wish I could have all that time back, because clearly none of them were good investments. Haha...I realize I'm coming from a slightly bitter place, so please excuse me for my attitude on the subject. It's just that dating and a career in medicine do not seem to balance well with each other!

Please...Could someone just come up with a medication that would help us think rationally about our choices in love and inhibit those deluded thoughts we get when we fall for someone?
 
I can't resist the urge to respond to this topic, though I'm only a med student and my perspective isn't from coming a resident stand-point! Therefore, please forgive me for responding outside of the pond I normally would be swimming in! 🙂

With that said, I think it's slightly dangerous and ultra risky to date within specialties -- athough, on the other hand, anytime you get your heart involved with someone else you do somewhat take a risk! It is just 10 times harder to extract yourself from an uncomfortable situation when problems DO arise. Things always seem so good in the beginning -- you're flying high and so excited about things, but are potentially blind to the possibility that the **** could hit the fan.

Ok, while this doesn't exactly address your scenario about *residents* intra-specialty dating, I know a girl at another med school whose is now an MS4. Since she was a young girl, and from day one of med school, she knew she wanted to do ortho and therefore spent hours shadowing, volunteering, doing summer research and basically networking with all the people from the ortho department. Although she was only a med student, she seemed to "fit" and everyone from the department seemed to really like her around. Low and behold, during one of her volunteer experiences, she met a 4th year ortho resident, felt immediate chemistry, and they started a whirlwind romance. Apparently, while she was somewhat skeptical of dating him at first, but he pursued her aggressively. They both agreed that the situation was complex and they should proceed with caution...so they agreed to "go slow" and not be careless. She became really smitten and even though she knew the risks, she ignored her senses about he potential fall out that could occur. But she fell for him hard. He treated her so well and a future with him seemed incredibly promising, as they has shared very similar (unique) life experiences that were something they really bonded over. I guess I was sort-of her "ear" during this time. As she shared all the exciting details with me, I was trying to be a good friend by offering her a more realistic perspective on the situation. I didn't want to delude her into thinking this was destined to be a fairy-tale romance ending. But what do I know?

But then I became deluded too, because when I met the guy I realized he *was* indeed amazing! He was uber-smart, well-respected, successful, charming, and good-looking. But it made her and I nervous that he was so well-connected with the "higher-ups," and to complicate things further, was also part of resident selection committee (RED flag!) Even though she saw these things -- she wanted to believe what they had was real and would trancend the potential professional dilemma she was facing. She claimed she would be with him whether he was a garbage man, or the president. Ugh, she had it so bad!

Fast forward about six months...he starts doing the very common guy "pull-back" thing. While this is to be expected from a lot of men when the newness of a relationship wears off -- it drove her to insanity. There was something a little more peculiar about it than normal. To make a long story short, this guy had had been deceiving her the entire time. He had a friggin WIFE (!), whom he claimed he was getting a divorce from, but he failed to mention some pertinent details about this from very the beginning. He also had the easy excuse of being on-call and "busy" all the time -- and given the understandable demands of his residency training, who've would questioned that for one second!? Well, he broke up with my friend -- but not in a very direct, or mature way that gave her any sense of closure, rather it was a loooong drawn out hurtful process of silent treatment and her being forced to realize that these six months were a complete sham. Interestingly, the guy got his share of "karma" in the end because he was let go from the residency program. In a way, I do feel kinda bad for him, because he was clearly suffering from some very personal issues that no one could quite understand. Even without his presence around, she said she felt a strange "vibe" around the ortho people from then on...and whether that's paranoia or not, she said she wasn't in any position to confide in anyone in the department on a personal level or ask around to see if people knew about this or were talking about it behind her back. I feel really bad for her...because she is such a great girl and really had it all going for her. She's doing ok now... just matched into general surgery and is happy. Hopefully she can end up wherever she wants to go...

But that whole experience literally devastated her and it was like a part-time job for me to help her pick up the pieces. She turned into a completely different person than I knew and it shattered her self-esteem and had her questioning herself and her passion for ortho. I think she had a little PTSD over the whole thing. She couldn't even step foot in the ortho building for a good few months and she was actually contemplating dropping out of med school. I tried to beat it into her that this guy wasn't who she thought he was. He was poison, and his actions shouldn't even come close to impact decisions about her entire future. But it's easy to say that from the outside, I guess.

In a year's time, she came to her senses -- but not without investing a ton of time exhausing herself emotionally. And she even commented that she felt the whole thing had affected her capacity to perform at her fullest potential during MS3.

Anyway, I'm not attempting to generalize her situation by saying that something like this could happen to you or that you'd make the same choices that she did. I think most people would have RAN as fast as they could from that situation...much, much sooner than she did (although in her defense, she thought she had found true love). I'm just pointing out that when things go sour, especially if you have an intra-specialty romance, it can get REALLY, REALLY UGLY! And it could then take its toll on your performance, career prospects, or ability to focus.

I've had two short-term relationships during med school myself, and while they weren't serious -- they did deplete some time and energy out of me. I'm now taking a stand-point that I'm not going to date for the next few years -- maybe until I'm finished with intern year.

I think back to all both the good times and the pain I went through with seemingly great relationships that ended up failing and I wish I could have all that time back, because clearly none of them were good investments. Haha...I realize I'm coming from a slightly bitter place, so please excuse me for my attitude on the subject. It's just that dating and a career in medicine do not seem to balance well with each other!

Please...Could someone just come up with a medication that would help us think rationally about our choices in love and inhibit those deluded thoughts we get when we fall for someone?

great post. i want to highlight something here. MOST relationships end. think about it, finding the right person for you is not easy and takes years. so if you are getting into a relationship at work, you can place your money on it not working out. with that said, you must consider the issues that will arise when it does not work out.

avoid dating those you work with!!!! avoid dating people in the hospital!!!! it will 100% bite you. think about it, a lot of people talk about people they dated. they usually say negative things. even if those are not true, do you want the negative "perceptions" from one person tainting your name there? it will happen.
 
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