Is a career in medicine too stifling?

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Goh

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I'm a 5th year undergrad facing a universal question: what career should I go into? For most of my undergraduate experience, the answer has been a career in medicine. I wanted to help people directly, I believed that health of the body necessarily precedes everything we do and therefore its improvement is a noble cause, and I appreciated and anticipated an intellectual challenge.

But as I've become more informed about medical school education and the practice of medicine, I've realized that the education is mostly memorization and regurgitation of facts, while the practice is mostly a narrow-minded intellectual exercise within the confines of bureaucracy and established knowledge, while treating patients for their symptoms but not the greater person or the greater society.

My questions to current medical students are: to your experience, is this true? How often do you find yourself questioning the practice of clinical science itself? How much time do you have to think about the greater ills of society? How much influence do you see yourself acquiring over social policy in the future?

I ask these because my college experience has made me question all of the structures of society. It has made favor abstract thinking over memorization. It has made me supremely idealistic, to the point that I now think a career in medicine will allow me to help too few people, in too narrow a fashion. Have any of you felt this way?
 
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I think your concerns are legitimate. Have you considered going into health policy? I have a couple classmates who are leaning towards doing something in politics or administration rather than clinical practice. You wouldn't necessarily need an MD for this, though it wouldn't hurt.
 
I think a lot of people go into this with a very romanticized idea about what medical practice is like. It's not like a TV show. It's a real job like any other. You will have coworkers and bosses that you hate, you will work long, long hours, and you will deal with endless paperwork and bureaucracy. You will also have real opportunity to help some of your patients, and for the most part your work will be rewarding to you both personally and financially.

As far as education goes, yes, there is a lot memorization, but this is necessary. Medicine is a subject in which you need a tremendous amount of background knowledge to be effective. Without memorization and assessment of your knowledge, how do you propose medical schools train you effectively? After the first two years you get to practice applying that knowledge and learn the problem solving part of the field.

It sounds like you are more interested in a public health type of role than the practice of medicine. If this is the case, don't waste your time and money getting your MD. Find a good master's program, or better yet, get involved right away with a job in the field next year.
 
“the education is mostly memorization and regurgitation of facts”

Absolutely true. If you are a person who gets really bothered by memorizing a lot of stuffs, for your own sanity don't go to medical school.

"practice is mostly a narrow-minded intellectual exercise"

The education of medicine can be summarized into three phases:

Phase 1 (1st & 2nd year): Knowing very little about a lot of diseases
Phase 2 (3rd & 4th year): Knowing much more about common diseases
Phase 3 (residency & beyond): Knowing a lot about much fewer diseases.

Some doctors I know are so specialized that it gets a bit ridiculously. Some surgeons are known to do only one type of operation, for 40 years. They are really good and make a good living. So your statement is absolutely true.

"How much influence do you see yourself acquiring over social policy in the future?"

You ask honest questions so I think you deserve honest answers from me. Perhaps I'm politically apathic, but the days when I worry about changing the healthcare system have gone a very long time ago. Two reasons: 1) you are not in the right shoes to do it - you are a physician 2) the task is so chanllenging that I begin to wonder if anyone is able to change it, including the President of the US. The inertia of status quo is unimagable.

"treating patients for their symptoms but not the greater person or the greater society"

That would definitely be a beautiful thing to do. However, it is 1000 times easier to say than to actually do it.

Imagine a hypothetical patient (who actually shows up in a real-life ER quite often):

Mr. Johnson (fake name) is a 28-year-old who came to the ER with loss of unconsciousness. He was found outside a night club by police officer on duty. His heart rate is 46. Blood pressure 80/50. Respiration rate 12. His pupils are constricted. Needle marks are observed on both arms.

So this guy most likely has heroin overdose. He is in respiratory depression. Am I going to save his life? Very likely. Stablize the vitals and shoot him with some naloxone may just do the trick. Am I going to help him quit medicine? I can try. Abstinence programs are always available, but don't always expect a "happy ending." Am I going to persuade him into living a healthy life and become a useful citizen to the society? Well, I have very limited resources and power over that.

You may come to medicine with great ambitions. To save the world and to transcend the society. Those are great ideas. However, the reality is simply cold and brutal. You will very quickly find yourself very defeated in pursuing this goal, that the idea of simply giving it up and doing whatever you can is irresistable.

"I now think a career in medicine will allow me to help too few people, in too narrow a fashion."

Try politics. Be honest and do good. I will vote for you 🙂
 
I'm 5th year undergrad facing a universal question: what career should I go into? For most of my undergraduate experience, the answer has been a career in medicine. I wanted to help people directly, I believed that health of the body necessarily precedes everything we do and therefore its improvement is a noble cause, and I appreciated and anticipated an intellectual challenge.

But as I've become more informed about medical school education and the practice of medicine, I've realized that the education is mostly memorization and regurgitation of facts, while the practice is mostly a narrow-minded intellectual exercise within the confines of bureaucracy and established knowledge, while treating patients for their symptoms but not the greater person or the greater society.

My questions to current medical students are: to your experience, is this true? How often do you find yourself questioning the practice of clinical science itself? How much time do you have to think about the greater ills of society? How much influence do you see yourself acquiring over social policy in the future?

I ask these because my college experience has made me question all of the structures of society. It has made favor abstract thinking over memorization. It has made me supremely idealistic, to the point that I now think a career in medicine will allow me to help too few people, in too narrow a fashion. Have any of you felt this way?
+2 to low IQ requirements of medicine. I asked the PI of a lab I did rotations in about this, and he said; you need the intellectual challenge- play chess or go into mathematics.
If you are interested in politics, macroeconomics, game theory, manipulation strategies, and a higher degree are essential things, I suppose. There are a lot of MDs that climb high in organizations and politics in countries all over the world, but then again, there are tons of health ministers that have never studied anything remotely connected to medicine.
I am gonna speculate a bit. Is helping people what you are looking for, or hitting the limelight as a big star helper? Doctors are doing scutwork when it comes to big picture changes of peoples lives, you help individuals. They eat, sleep, **** and die. If you are concerned with your legacy, or have issues of grandeur (which is OK, I am not slamming you), then you should consider another job- for your OWN sake.
Having said that, it is always good to have another leg to stand on when you are entering politics, ESPECIALLY if you are a US resident, like most on this board. And medicine offers a fair amount of cash, as a regular employee, or in private practice. Something worth considering, if you can put up with all the reading.
And if you are doing science as well, you are part of a movement that results in incremental changes that help people who would have been weeded out by the pure darwinism of nature. You might not get the nobel prize, but the "helping humanity" on- a- larger- scale- conscience should be covered.
 
...medical school education and the practice of medicine, I've realized that the education is mostly memorization and regurgitation of facts, while the practice is mostly a narrow-minded intellectual exercise within the confines of bureaucracy and established knowledge, while treating patients for their symptoms but not the greater person or the greater society...


There is no "greater person" or "greater society." It's mostly just a collection of out-of-shape old people wheezing and shaking their way to death.
 
...I ask these because my college experience has made me question all of the structures of society. It has made favor abstract thinking over memorization. It has made me supremely idealistic, to the point that I now think a career in medicine will allow me to help too few people, in too narrow a fashion. Have any of you felt this way?

You are a typical pompous college student who doesn't know jack about jack.

Supremely idealistic? That's a laugh.
 
...+2 to low IQ requirements of medicine. I asked the PI of a lab I did rotations in about this, and he said; you need the intellectual challenge- play chess or go into mathematics...

Totally ridiculous. Physicians have theoretical and, more importantly, practical intelligence far beyond that of some cheeto-smeared grad student monkeying around on his thesis.

"Low IQ requirements." How do you know? An IQ test is not required for entrance to any graduate or doctoral program that I know of.
 
Mr. Johnson (fake name) is a 28-year-old who came to the ER with loss of unconsciousness. He was found outside a night club by police officer on duty. His heart rate is 46. Blood pressure 80/50. Respiration rate 12. His pupils are constricted. Needle marks are observed on both arms.

So he's conscious?
 
...while treating patients for their symptoms but not the greater person or the greater society.

I always wonder what this means. A person comes to you with a problem. You identify it and eliminate it. How is this wrong?

If you mean someone with pancreatitis who can't lay off the booze repeatedly seeking treatment for abdominal pain, or someone going through drug withdrawals, or is double cheeseburgering themselves to death, that's something for the family practice, maybe internal medicine, or psych doctors to sort out. Depending on what your specialty is, it may not be something that you can reasonably expect to sort out.
 
WOW.., Just become a psychologist; then, you can be intellectual, understanding, and less "narrow-minded." As for me, I just want to fix people , take a two week cruise every summer, and relax in a mediterranean villa when I can.

Whatever you do though; remember, you get ~70 years of life. So, your already about 33% of the way through your lifetime. Stop thinking so harshly, make some money, and enjoy yourself.👍
 
What about an MD/ MPH? Would this allow someone to practice clinically or work in policy and community areas also?
 
Panda Bear just earned my respect!!

He has the ability to see through pure Bull ****...that's rare, and commendable. Kudos to you Panda Bear!
 
Panda Bear just earned my respect!!

He has the ability to see through pure Bull ****...that's rare, and commendable. Kudos to you Panda Bear!
And you just earned mine with the American Psycho avatar :laugh:👍
 
Panda Bear just earned my respect!!

He has the ability to see through pure Bull ****...that's rare, and commendable. Kudos to you Panda Bear!


Well look, the original poster has the typical pseudo-intellectual disdain for individuals, preferring instead to avoid getting his hands dirty by trying to help "the greater society."
 
Everyone, thanks for the thoughtful replies. Please keep in mind that this is a very personal reflection for me, and I don't wish to make value judgments on anyone's career or career aspirations. I will attempt to reply to every post that warrants one. Everyone else, thanks for the advice.

MrBurns10: Yes, I'm considering going into some form of public health at the moment. Having an MD would certainly help my influence and credibility, but I am currently debating whether such an intensive and draining training process is a good means to an end.

phatib: Similar to MrBurns10. I'm not sure an MD is the best way to get power/money.

Good Yeast: Thanks for the honest post. It's precisely what I was looking for. As for politics, much like medicine, its modern incarnation is not something that is very effective. It's become corrupted by too much partisanship and corporate influence. Right now, I'm not considering it.

antihero: I've never sought the "limelight." In fact, I'm averse to it. People should pay attention to ideas, not the person presenting them. A legacy, however, is different. Wouldn't we all love to have a lasting impact on this world before we died? Your other points are very valid. The science of disease is certainly a noble undertaking - I just find myself more intrigued with humans at the social level.

Panda Bear: I respect your experience and wisdom but not your cynical, mocking tone. I believe in the greater person and society because at this moment, there are people who are shaping policy that will determine the boundaries of your life and mine. Humans do not exist in a vacuum with respect to each other. Also, "supremely idealistic" was meant to signify that I am more idealistic than others, which is both good and bad. I struggle immensely because of my idealism, and it has made me question nearly everything, including myself. I may not have seen the things you have seen, but I refuse to accept what I've experienced of the world as the status quo.

ONYX4000GT: I'm afraid "just enjoying myself" is nearly impossible for me, in the long run.

copperfrog09: This is precisely what I wanted to do before I began to question the MD part of it. I'm afraid medical school/intership/residency will make me too cynical and exhausted, to the point that I will just want to relax in my off-time. Leisure time and free time are very different things.

Maybe there is a wider question here: Does one enter a demanding career and hope that he/she will trascend it, or does one spend unknown amounts of time looking for an "ideal" job?
 
Well look, the original poster has the typical pseudo-intellectual disdain for individuals, preferring instead to avoid getting his hands dirty by trying to help "the greater society."

This is your interpretation of a single post I made. I have great respect and love for individuals, and have worked for two years being a personal care attendant to two disabled people, in addition to volunteering in hospitals, being an occuptational therapist for an autistic child, and tutoring English. Keep in mind, I've wanted to be a doctor for a long time. It's just that I find myself being more intellectually drawn to social policy at this crucial moment. It's a personal preference, just as your career is a personal preference. I am not saying one is better than the other.
 
I'm 5th year undergrad facing a universal question: what career should I go into? For most of my undergraduate experience, the answer has been a career in medicine. I wanted to help people directly, I believed that health of the body necessarily precedes everything we do and therefore its improvement is a noble cause, and I appreciated and anticipated an intellectual challenge.

But as I've become more informed about medical school education and the practice of medicine, I've realized that the education is mostly memorization and regurgitation of facts, while the practice is mostly a narrow-minded intellectual exercise within the confines of bureaucracy and established knowledge, while treating patients for their symptoms but not the greater person or the greater society.

My questions to current medical students are: to your experience, is this true? How often do you find yourself questioning the practice of clinical science itself? How much time do you have to think about the greater ills of society? How much influence do you see yourself acquiring over social policy in the future?

I ask these because my college experience has made me question all of the structures of society. It has made favor abstract thinking over memorization. It has made me supremely idealistic, to the point that I now think a career in medicine will allow me to help too few people, in too narrow a fashion. Have any of you felt this way?

I agree with you. I don't have time to comment extensively, but I have had many of the same concerns previously. Specifically, I've always felt that going into scientific research would result in greater social benefit.

Being a physician is great, but if you really think about it, it IS just "scut work" as another poster mentioned. The same scut work nurses do, except on a "higher" level, requiring higher level knowledge/reasoning. That is to say, the typical physician is completely replaceable. The ER doc goes on his shift, and when he goes off it, someone else as knowledgeable (or slightly less or slightly more) goes on the shift. Sure, there are some individuals who are stellar in that they may be extra conscientious as people, and therefore more responsible as physicians. Over the course of their careers, they may save and impact far more lives than your less conscientious physician who just wants to get through his shift and go home.

But overall, at the end of the day, the average physician is interchangeable with any other physician.

This bothered me for a while, because I felt my creativity would be stifled if I were just a cog in the machine. I felt like I had more to offer and maybe my creativity would be put to better use in research, where having a novel idea might actually make a huge impact and certainly I don't think of research scientists as interchangeable. One might argue that scientific progress is inevitable, regardless of any one individual. But that's still more of a philosophical argument. In practice, and in reality, individuals more matter in the realm of science-- one person can speed up the progress of a new innovation by many years. So that excited me.

My parents wanted me to be a scientist, to be honest. My dad in particular, I felt, never held physicians in the same high esteem as scientists. It was just real interesting to me, because in this culture, physicians seem to get such respect, and saying "I want to be a doctor" in any ordinary crowd of people will inevitably draw "oohs" and plenty of admiration. I always got the feeling my dad simply thought of physicians as regurgitation machines... and it troubled me because I could see his point. At some point, I ended up adopting this mindset as well.

The pre-meds I met (no offense) in class (I was a bio major) were OBNOXIOUS as hell, for the most part. They were the ones in class who were always asking "is this going to be on the test??" And if the professor responded no, you could tell they would just tune out right away. Few of them seemed to display any kind of intrinsic curiosity to the subject matter. Whereas the kids who were into science in these classes would be the ones asking "tangential" questions that clearly probably wouldn't be tested, but were interesting nonetheless, and usually resulted in interesting responses that expanded my knowledge level. I related more to these kids, then the majority of the pre-meds, so I ended up with a sort of disdain towards pre-meds.

But this story is getting a little long, so I'll just skip all the drama and come to the end. Now, I am a pre-med 😀 , and I'm applying for med school for 2009.

The thing I neglected to notice about pre-meds is service. Once I started doing the "typical" pre-med activities (aka volunteering), that was a side of the entire pre-med experience I hadn't paid much attention to. And while my initial impression of pre-meds as unintellectual curious still, in my mind, holds true to some degree, I've come away with a different perspective. That is,
yes a lot of these kids maybe aren't the most intellectual (in the sense of being naturally curious about things)... but they're hard-working, and more importantly, they're motivated to help others. I've discovered more of an altruistic side in myself too through hours of volunteering.

And you know what? It feels good to make immediate, fundamental differences in the lives of others. Research is great and getting useful results is a wonderful feeling. The intellectual challenge is stimulating. But the flip side of it is, many researchers do not end up having a direct impact on people in the immediate future. Don't underestimate how good relieving someone's immediate pain can make you feel.

As for the part about medicine being repetitive/all about memorization... well, being a lowly pre-med, this is just my guess. But my specialty interest is neurology, and certainly I think specialty choice can impact how complex the diagnostic process can get. I like the fact that neurologic disorders are typically not readily apparent the way maybe skin conditions are for a dermatologist. Sure, every specialty has its repetitive handful of diseases... but I think working with stuff like Alzheimer's, Parkinsons, etc. would be very challenging and stimulating. So basically, those are the answers I've found for myself to address the questions of intellectual stimulation and societal contribution.

Your concerns seem more policy-oriented... and in some ways those concerns are easier to address: Go into healthcare policy. I used to work for a healthcare IT firm and one of the executives was a MD who consulted there part-time. If you want to make a difference policy-wise on a large scale, there are plenty of opportunities out there. NOT just in politics, but especially out in the business world. There's a company out there working to manufacture electronic exoskeletons for paralyzed consumers... originally started out as a military project to enhance the strength of soldiers. But I suppose someone sensed a business opportunity and how exciting is it that in the near future, paralyzed folks can buy this product and *walk* again?? The motivations of businesses ($$$) might not be noble, but they can certainly have noble large-scale impacts.

Also, one last thing. Another poster had brought up the example of a drug addict presenting at the ER. No, the one ER doctor can't save this guy's life and make him quit and be clean and get all better. If you want to be a doctor to try to "save" people's lives like that all by yourself, then yeah you're gonna get a cold slap on the face by the real world. BUT. It does take an inter-professional team. If that guy can get family support, maybe counseling from a psychologist, a social worker to check up on him, maybe even a ILS worker to help him readjust to society/find a job, etc. It takes a lot of people... and I think if you really wanted to make social changes on a large level, it really is at the level of policy--- someone has to coordinate the different types of care each patient receives. If a guy like that is getting discharged improperly, and with no follow-up, etc... then yeah, he's likely to fail.

Not everyone has what it takes to start up programs and mobilize other professionals to participate. If you are up to it, then go for it. But having that MD could only help you in the task, I think... not harm you.
 
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Not everyone has what it takes to start up programs and mobilize other professionals to participate. If you are up to it, then go for it. But having that MD could only help you in the task, I think... not harm you.

Thanks for the post, unsung. I appreciate you taking the time to detail how you've re-entered the pre-med path. Good luck! I certainly face more soul-searching and more research into how to realize my currently ambiguous goals. Personally, I don't know if I will be able to survive the rigors of medical school, knowing that I am not really interested in clinical practice. A friend of mine has dropped out of medical school for this very reason.
 
Panda Bear: I respect your experience and wisdom but not your cynical, mocking tone. I believe in the greater person and society because at this moment, there are people who are shaping policy that will determine the boundaries of your life and mine. Humans do not exist in a vacuum with respect to each other. Also, "supremely idealistic" was meant to signify that I am more idealistic than others, which is both good and bad. I struggle immensely because of my idealism, and it has made me question nearly everything, including myself. I may not have seen the things you have seen, but I refuse to accept what I've experienced of the world as the status quo.

"People shaping policy," for the most part, are screwing things up in the name of their ideological agenda. This is because not only are the people who make government policy the least qualified to do it but their overwhelming motivation is maintaining their privileges and perquisites, not doing the right thing. You will find, for example, that the great majority of American medicine is utter bull****, money that is completely wasted to the extent that flushing it down the crapper would have the same effect, and that while the correct government policy would be to insure fewer people, pay for less for more people, and get as much of the corrupting influence of public money out of the medical system, the political will is to do the exact opposite; giving to the mewling and terrified masses all the medical care they can choke on whether it does any good or not.

Believe me, I am at the cutting edge of this kind of thing.

And you are not more idealistic than others. You only think you are because you are young and naive. I bet you don't really question everything either but instead accept the whole liberal orthodoxy as received wisdom.
 
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I shudder at the thought of what an "extensive" response would look like...

:laugh: My bad. Why is it I can write long posts but not finish my secondaries? That is the question.
 
Thanks for the post, unsung. I appreciate you taking the time to detail how you've re-entered the pre-med path. Good luck! I certainly face more soul-searching and more research into how to realize my currently ambiguous goals. Personally, I don't know if I will be able to survive the rigors of medical school, knowing that I am not really interested in clinical practice. A friend of mine has dropped out of medical school for this very reason.

Thanks 🙂 Good luck to you too, whatever you decide.
 
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...Being a physician is great, but if you really think about it, it IS just "scut work" as another poster mentioned. The same scut work nurses do, except on a "higher" level, requiring higher level knowledge/reasoning. That is to say, the typical physician is completely replaceable. The ER doc goes on his shift, and when he goes off it, someone else as knowledgeable (or slightly less or slightly more) goes on the shift. Sure, there are some individuals who are stellar in that they may be extra conscientious as people, and therefore more responsible as physicians. Over the course of their careers, they may save and impact far more lives than your less conscientious physician who just wants to get through his shift and go home...

It is truly a sad day on SDN when your Uncle Panda, perhaps the SDN regular contributor who is the least enthusiastic for the medical profession, has to step in to defend medicine from the half-truths of the ignorant.

First of all, there is no similarity between the work of nurses and physicians. Nurses do their thing and physicians do theirs. Because I can start an IV and calculate drip rates and some nurses know the indications and contraindications for dopamine does not change the fact that nurses, broadly speaking, handle most of the mechanics of patient care while physicians assess, diagnose, determine treatment, and take care of the big, complicated procedures. That's no cut on nurses who are indispensable to patient care. I happen to work with only the best nurses (in the Emergency Department and the Intensive Care Unit) but I have never met one who wanted to do, or even tried to do, my job. (The ones who do go to medical school or try to slime in through the back door Nurse Practitioner route, itself a tacit admission that nursing skills alone are not the equivalent of medical practice.)

And I got news for you, everybody is replaceable. Sure, there are a few Ronald Reagans, Winston Churchills, and Albert Einsteins coming along every now and then but if you think you are going to be unique and special as a government policy wonk or medical bureaucrat you are going to be gravely disappointed. On the other hand, I may be interchangeable with any other Emergency Medicine physician but those other mother****ers aren't here, right now, resuscitating your drowned kid, exercising that practical intelligence, that assimilation of a deep understanding of medicine that is the real function of a doctor.

Additionally, wanting to get through your shift and go home does not make you a lesser doctor in any way, shape, or form. In fact, the best Emergency Physicians and the most conscientious are able to make decisions leading to timely and appropriate dispositions which results in a clean board and few "turnovers."
 
It is truly a sad day on SDN when your Uncle Panda, perhaps the SDN regular contributor who is the least enthusiastic for the medical profession, has to step in to defend medicine from the half-truths of the ignorant.

First of all, there is no similarity between the work of nurses and physicians. Nurses do their thing and physicians do theirs. Because I can start an IV and calculate drip rates and some nurses know the indications and contraindications for dopamine does not change the fact that nurses, broadly speaking, handle most of the mechanics of patient care while physicians assess, diagnose, determine treatment, and take care of the big, complicated procedures. That's no cut on nurses who are indispensable to patient care. I happen to work with only the best nurses (in the Emergency Department and the Intensive Care Unit) but I have never met one who wanted to do, or even tried to do, my job. (The ones who do go to medical school or try to slime in through the back door Nurse Practitioner route, itself a tacit admission that nursing skills alone are not the equivalent of medical practice.)

And I got news for you, everybody is replaceable. Sure, there are a few Ronald Reagans, Winston Churchills, and Albert Einsteins coming along every now and then but if you think you are going to be unique and special as a government policy wonk or medical bureaucrat you are going to be gravely disappointed. On the other hand, I may be interchangeable with any other Emergency Medicine physician but those other mother****ers aren't here, right now, resuscitating your drowned kid, exercising that practical intelligence, that assimilation of a deep understanding of medicine that is the real function of a doctor.

Additionally, wanting to get through your shift and go home does not make you a lesser doctor in any way, shape, or form. In fact, the best Emergency Physicians and the most conscientious are able to make decisions leading to timely and appropriate dispositions which results in a clean board and few "turnovers."

It's my own fault I guess that I wrote such a long ass post :laugh: No, pretty much I agree with you. The part you quoted is something I used to think, but what I also realize now is how fulfilling it is to make an immediate impact in someone's life. There's that rare brilliant scientist who really comes up with something to change people's lives forever... but there's a gazillion of post-docs out there who really aren't doing much to change anyone's life to a significant extent. Science just doesn't translate into practical benefit with 100% efficiency.

My comment about shift work just has to do with the idea that I would hope my job would be involving enough to the extent that I'm not eyeing the clock waiting to get home. I want my work to be my life, to some extent. Okay... so I'm a total idealist 😉 I'm not saying physicians who don't work from that worldview are lesser. Like you said, maybe they're more efficient at getting things done. There's certainly no correlation between one's ability to do a job and one's reasoning for wanting to do that job in the first place. Even in medicine which has a lot of routine, I feel like it should be possible to work out a career (a combination of practice, & other things) that doesn't leave me watching the clock every shift, waiting to go home. Maybe "creativity" in medicine has to do with how to maximize efficiency say in the ER, or as a manager, constantly finding better ways to streamline procedures to get faster care for the patient. There's a lot of room for these things to improve, so if I were given some responsibility or freedom to work on these things, I think it could become a consuming career, which is what I seek.
 
"People shaping policy," for the most part, are screwing things up in the name of their ideological agenda. This is because not only are the people who make government policy the least qualified to do it but their overwhelming motivation is maintaining their privileges and perquisites, not doing the right thing. You will find, for example, that the great majority of American medicine is utter bull****, money that is completely wasted to the extent that flushing it down the crapper would have the same effect, and that while the correct government policy would be to insure fewer people, pay for less for more people, and get as much of the corrupting influence of public money out of the medical system, the political will is to do the exact opposite; giving to the mewling and terrified masses all the medical care they can choke on whether it does any good or not.

Believe me, I am at the cutting edge of this kind of thing.

And you are not more idealistic than others. You only think you are because you are young and naive. I bet you don't really question everything either but instead accept the whole liberal orthodoxy as received wisdom.

Indeed, I "receive" more wisdom with a liberal slant than alternatives, but I do not accept it unquestioningly. In fact, I believe that the purpose of life is to think and question.

But let's move beyond my making general statements about myself. It's self-centered and obviously riles you up. Can you point me towards threads where you delve into the errors of the healthcare system? Threads where you propose solutions? Book/media recommendations? I'm interested in what someone on the cutting edge thinks. Surely, one of your purposes for posting in these forums is to educate pre-meds about health care, in the hope that the future will bring changes?
 
Indeed, I "receive" more wisdom with a liberal slant than alternatives, but I do not accept it unquestioningly. In fact, I believe that the purpose of life is to think and question.

But let's move beyond my making general statements about myself. It's self-centered and obviously riles you up. Can you point me towards threads where you delve into the errors of the healthcare system? Threads where you propose solutions? Book/media recommendations? I'm interested in what someone on the cutting edge thinks. Surely, one of your purposes for posting in these forums is to educate pre-meds about health care, in the hope that the future will bring changes?

PB appears to recently have passed the 9k post count. I'm sure if you look, you'll find something.

Goh, let's level. I get the impression that your post essentially asks whether or not medicine is going to hold you back from some kind of glorious triumph. The fact of the matter is, if you've got the "right stuff" then you'll do well in really any field. If not, just do your job and enjoy time with the family.

But don't seek your career (particularly as a late-stage undergrad) based on how heroic it allows you to be. Your potential will not be significantly limited by your day job.
 
PB appears to recently have passed the 9k post count. I'm sure if you look, you'll find something.

Goh, let's level. I get the impression that your post essentially asks whether or not medicine is going to hold you back from some kind of glorious triumph. The fact of the matter is, if you've got the "right stuff" then you'll do well in really any field. If not, just do your job and enjoy time with the family.

But don't seek your career (particularly as a late-stage undergrad) based on how heroic it allows you to be. Your potential will not be significantly limited by your day job.

Every pre-med student should take this to heart.
 
Indeed, I "receive" more wisdom with a liberal slant than alternatives, but I do not accept it unquestioningly. In fact, I believe that the purpose of life is to think and question.

But let's move beyond my making general statements about myself. It's self-centered and obviously riles you up. Can you point me towards threads where you delve into the errors of the healthcare system? Threads where you propose solutions? Book/media recommendations? I'm interested in what someone on the cutting edge thinks. Surely, one of your purposes for posting in these forums is to educate pre-meds about health care, in the hope that the future will bring changes?

Good Lord. Could someone who has it please email Goh my blog archives? (I know some of you used programs to download the whole thing en masse.) Alternately, SDN has promised to host the archives although that project seems to have stalled.

But in a nutshell, the fundamental error of American medical care is trying to pay for everything for everybody all the time regardless of cost, benefit, or ability to pay. Couple that with an out-of-control legal environment, the general bad health of the public, and the strict dictum that personal responsibility be shunned at every level and we have ourselves a recipe for financial meltdown.
 
With due respect, I think the OP's poor choice of words is what's irritating everyone. I wouldn't call a residency that requires 80 hours/week 'stifling' --> a lot of hard work, perhaps, but stifling? No. Sounds like medicine's cramping your style, man.

The second thing that's irritating people is the fact that you are attempting to devalue medicine by creating a "good" "better" "best" scenario whereby medicine's "narrow range of focus" only falls into "good" or "better" by your standards. The fact of the matter is that everyone contributes in a different way; if you didn't have postal workers you wouldn't receive mail, if you didn't have janitors cleaning toilets, you wouldn't have clean bathrooms, etc. etc. etc.

OP, what you value is totally and completely up to you and there's no reason that anyone here should either have to defend his/her position regarding being pre-med NOR are we in any position to evaluate what your priorities should be.

My $0.02 (can be exchanged for 30 seconds volunteering time on Saturday evenings only)
 
With due respect, I think the OP's poor choice of words is what's irritating everyone. I wouldn't call a residency that requires 80 hours/week 'stifling' --> a lot of hard work, perhaps, but stifling? No. Sounds like medicine's cramping your style, man.

The second thing that's irritating people is the fact that you are attempting to devalue medicine by creating a "good" "better" "best" scenario whereby medicine's "narrow range of focus" only falls into "good" or "better" by your standards. The fact of the matter is that everyone contributes in a different way; if you didn't have postal workers you wouldn't receive mail, if you didn't have janitors cleaning toilets, you wouldn't have clean bathrooms, etc. etc. etc.

OP, what you value is totally and completely up to you and there's no reason that anyone here should either have to defend his/her position regarding being pre-med NOR are we in any position to evaluate what your priorities should be.

My $0.02 (can be exchanged for 30 seconds volunteering time on Saturday evenings only)

Inhiding, I apologize for my poor choices of words, but my intention was to air some of my personal insecurities/grievances about medicine and to see what current medical students thought with my assessment. I originally posted this thread in the allopathic forum and it was moved here to the pre-allopathic forum. I have no intention of imposing my views upon pre-meds.

Can someone who has them email me Panda Bear's blog archives? Address is: [email protected]
 
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Actually, if someone does have Panda Bear's blog archives, then can you please PM me? Thanks...
 
Another reason for Ron Paul.

Naw. The problem is that he believes in the religion of medicine. It's his creed and his major focus. Better to elect an unbeliever, somebody who can see through the fog, so to speak.
 
Indeed, I "receive" more wisdom with a liberal slant than alternatives, but I do not accept it unquestioningly. In fact, I believe that the purpose of life is to think and question.

But let's move beyond my making general statements about myself. It's self-centered and obviously riles you up. Can you point me towards threads where you delve into the errors of the healthcare system? Threads where you propose solutions? Book/media recommendations? I'm interested in what someone on the cutting edge thinks. Surely, one of your purposes for posting in these forums is to educate pre-meds about health care, in the hope that the future will bring changes?

Oh, you just have no idea, do you? I really, really wish PB's blog was still up. That would make this whole process so much easier.
 
PandaBear, I was trying to find your blog and went to the URL but it's apparently missing. Any idea when they're going to get it up?
 
But in a nutshell, the fundamental error of American medical care is trying to pay for everything for everybody all the time regardless of cost, benefit, or ability to pay. Couple that with an out-of-control legal environment, the general bad health of the public, and the strict dictum that personal responsibility be shunned at every level and we have ourselves a recipe for financial meltdown.

PandaBear - I'm not about to argue with you about the finer details... since you know the details and I don't, but other countries(Spain, Canada, Great Britain) have a form of socialized medicine, and are capable of paying for most of these things, it seems, much better than the U.S. what's your take on this?

I agree, we, as a country, don't take care of ourselves at all... And I know from experience that countries like Canada can have long waiting lines for surgeries etc... I understand that you're demonstrating there is a problem, what, though, are you advocating as a solution?

I'm trying to be positive about this, please don't think I'm pandering or trying to be rhetorical, I'd like to hear someone with an honest opinion, and knowledge of the field.
 
PandaBear - I'm not about to argue with you about the finer details... since you know the details and I don't, but other countries(Spain, Canada, Great Britain) have a form of socialized medicine, and are capable of paying for most of these things, it seems, much better than the U.S. what's your take on this?

I agree, we, as a country, don't take care of ourselves at all... And I know from experience that countries like Canada can have long waiting lines for surgeries etc... I understand that you're demonstrating there is a problem, what, though, are you advocating as a solution?

I'm trying to be positive about this, please don't think I'm pandering or trying to be rhetorical, I'd like to hear someone with an honest opinion, and knowledge of the field.

No. European nations have the same problems paying for medical care as we do. In fact, the fundamental issue of the Western democracies is paying for lavish social welfare benefits on the backs of a shrinking productive class. If you think Spain and Great Britain can effortlessly and painlessly fund their respective government health insurance schemes you have not been following the news. The trend everywhere is to limit spending and scale back benefits.

As for American medical care, I am not exaggerating a bit when I say that half of all the money we spend on medical care is totally and completely wasted. Absolutely thrown away with no discernible effect on any health care statistic you care to mention. This includes the monumental sums spent on futile care, unnecessary testing, marginally effective therapies, and a level of bureaucracy that many of you cannot imagine.

As I said, I am at the cutting edge of this kind of thing. At least half of my patients on every shift are some variety of bull**** upon whom is lavished the treasure of the nation for no other reason than a) the fear of litigation has beaten the common sense out of medicine, and b) the public has hugely unreasonable expectations about medical care. The patients who have legitimate complaints, for their part, are subjected to one useless test after another and the panoply of interventions in our arsenal even if the benefit is negligible.

This is what I mean by the "Religion of Medicine," that is, the belief that despite the costs and inefficiencies, medical care is some kind of virtue and the more of it we dispense the better people we become and the happier we are as a society. This is the kind of zealotry that grips most of you but from whose seductive cult I have been liberated.

I could write a book on wasted money that would chill your bones.
 
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PandaBear, I grew up in Canada, and I have the same feeling of medical care, where Canadians have above 50% tax rates, ridiculously high. I just feel like if you gave a reasonable conclusion like you just gave, to an admissions committee, an honest response, that they would definitely reject you, lol.

I was just arguing to a friend about just this type of thing. I think it's sad when someone dies, but I don't believe we should spend 10 million dollars on someone who will only make 5 million dollars his entire life...

I just want to make sure that you know I'm not arguing with you though, and that my original question still stands: What can we do about the situation?
 
I think it's sad when someone dies, but I don't believe we should spend 10 million dollars on someone who will only make 5 million dollars his entire life...

I'm sorry, I can't help but play devil's advocate: We should now place monetary value on someone's life?

"Dear Mr. X, we are reasonably certain you will make no more than 5.45 million dollars in your lifetime (adjusted for inflation) and we're through providing you with medical care. Loves, The Hospital."

😕😕😕 That what you had in mind?
 
If you want to treat "the greater person" double board in psychiatry and family practice. Open your own practice where you treat the "whole person", both the symptoms of their current illness, and their overall problems that they are causing themselves.

If you get a decent office manager who can deal with all of the paperwork and bureaucracy, then you can concentrate on your patients.

Your appointments will need to be longer that that of a normal family practice doc, but since you could likely bill each visit as both a mental health visit and a family practice visit (depending on what you do with the patient) it won't cut into your income flow. (I'm basing this on the fact that I've done medical billing in the past, and I've seen how things can be billed)

If you want to fix society, become a politician or a political activist. Being a doctor won't help that at all.
 
I'm sorry, I can't help but play devil's advocate: We should now place monetary value on someone's life?

"Dear Mr. X, we are reasonably certain you will make no more than 5.45 million dollars in your lifetime (adjusted for inflation) and we're through providing you with medical care. Loves, The Hospital."

😕😕😕 That what you had in mind?

What about someone who is 80 years old, has no money, and is going to live for 6 more months if we can make this invasive and expensive surgery/treatment work? Is it okay then? After all, every life is sacred, we should probably go above and beyond to ensure that this old man lives those extra fruitful months, I'm sure that will be money well spent.

How about a kid, 2 years old, has a 99.999% chance of dying, but the treatment costs $500,000. It might be rare, but I'm sure there are going to be more and more of these types of diseases creeping up as we continue to get "better" at treating diseases with complete disregard for genetics and what they tell us.

I love how you can climb behind your little wall of "Everyone should be treated! No matter the cost to society!" little fun and games routine, when people like me actually think about these decisions, trying to weigh the consequences of a debt ridden society which never pays its dues. I guess you're right, maybe we should just treat everyone... Because, as Panda said, the measure of the goodness of our society is in how much we're willing to give up so that little Johny or Old Grandpa can live longer lives, instead of improving the lives of people currently living.

In the ethos that you propose, our world is better off with 50,000 extra people, living slightly longer lives, just for the sake of you feeling good at the end of the day because you feel that since it may only be an extra 10% off of your paycheck, that's insignificant. Guess what, to poor people, that extra 10% they're shouldering due to the rampant inflation you are causing due to these unpaid debts turns into an actual difference, which presents itself in the form of lost homes, unpaid mortgages, and much worse quality of life. Take a look at how Canada deals with their health system, how great the economics are over there, go ahead and try to find a job to work at, it's a LOT different than here in the U.S.


Like I said Pianola, I'm not saying that life isn't special, but I am saying that there comes a point in which you need to say "Enough is enough, we're sorry, this extra treatment comes at a price that is simply unaffordable." Oh yeah, and Pianola, watch your step outside, a small ant might have the evolutionary makings of the next sentient species in the universe, make sure you pay extra attention, every life MUST be saved... or you're going to hell.
 
:laugh: Whoa there...relax. I just wanted to make sure that I understood: You DO in fact want to put a monetary value on someone's life, if I understand correctly. Go for it - it's totally your right.

Sounds like a legal nightmare to me. :laugh:
 
Urology. We need more pecker checkers.
 
That's a really base way of thinking about it. He's trying to say that there are some cases in which treatment just plain isn't warranted and that pouring tons of resources into the patient is a complete waste.

Let's take a lesson from our good friend quantum physics. I imagine most of you have at least heard of the tunnel effect, but for a brief refresher, an interesting offshoot of it is that there is a chance a solid object can pass directly through another. That probability is unimaginably small, but it is finite and non-zero. Now, the fact that there is a non-zero chance I'll suddenly fall through my chair doesn't mean that I should just chill here for awhile and wait for it to happen. Similarly, there's not a whole lot of reason to throw a barrage of tests and treatments at a patient in hope of striking that low probability that you'll increase his lifespan by an unproductive and likely agonizing month that will set his treatment center back still more resources as they house him and try to control his life functions and pain.
 
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