Is disinterest in OMM/OMT enough reason to not want to go DO?

[ChaiMeow]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Those do sound like VERY serious design problems. I've been looking at some papers as well and it seems like many are 1) not controlled well and 2) have very small sample sizes. It really defeats the point of doing a study if you don't set it up properly.

Thank you to the above poster that kindly educated me about the nomenclature issue. I appreciate that information.

 

[sylvanthus]

The sad thing is that all of the studies I have looked at thus far have been like this, save for the lymph flow articles someone mentioned above. But, it stands to reason that it doesnt take cutting open dogs and placing catheters in their lymphatics to realize that if you push on their abdomen that flow would increase. After all, it is well know that lymph flow increases with muscular contraction and movement. Was it really necessary to kill dogs to show this? Also, this shows nothing about long term implications, or whether or not it actually improves the immune system functioning. If just increasing flow really had that much of an impact they could recommend we all go jogging when we have a cold.

But, the more disturbing thing on a personal level is that when I look at this stuff I see nothing that is legit. No technique that has been proven to work and even if, and when I do see a legit study, I am going to assume it is flawed because so many other studies before have been flawed. When all you see around you is poorly designed studies that draw inappropriate conclusions, you start to think everything related to OMT is crap, even the good stuff.

Schools should really narrow down OMT to those things that have been proven to be effective instead of teaching stuff like cranial, which just makes most students cringe and end up disregarding everything. I would rather have a couple real good techniques with good data to back them up so that I am not embarassed when discussing OMT with MDs, than a whole plethora of unfounded techniques that make us look like quacks.

 

[Bisbee]

It does seem quacky. But then, to me, so does chiropractic and acupuncture. I also anticipate that I will feel resentful taking a class (spending precious time) "learning" about something that is questionable (like I felt as a teenager going to church). On the other hand, we still get to learn all the other "real" things, too, like anatomy, physiology, histology, etc. Maybe those of us who are skeptics at heart will just have to buck up and put on a poker face and get through the OMM classes.

 

[willen101383]

The sad thing is that all of the studies I have looked at thus far have been like this, save for the lymph flow articles someone mentioned above. But, it stands to reason that it doesnt take cutting open dogs and placing catheters in their lymphatics to realize that if you push on their abdomen that flow would increase. After all, it is well know that lymph flow increases with muscular contraction and movement. Was it really necessary to kill dogs to show this? Also, this shows nothing about long term implications, or whether or not it actually improves the immune system functioning. If just increasing flow really had that much of an impact they could recommend we all go jogging when we have a cold.

But, the more disturbing thing on a personal level is that when I look at this stuff I see nothing that is legit. No technique that has been proven to work and even if, and when I do see a legit study, I am going to assume it is flawed because so many other studies before have been flawed. When all you see around you is poorly designed studies that draw inappropriate conclusions, you start to think everything related to OMT is crap, even the good stuff.

Schools should really narrow down OMT to those things that have been proven to be effective instead of teaching stuff like cranial, which just makes most students cringe and end up disregarding everything. I would rather have a couple real good techniques with good data to back them up so that I am not embarassed when discussing OMT with MDs, than a whole plethora of unfounded techniques that make us look like quacks.

👍

 

[TallScrubs]

The sad thing is that all of the studies I have looked at thus far have been like this, save for the lymph flow articles someone mentioned above. But, it stands to reason that it doesnt take cutting open dogs and placing catheters in their lymphatics to realize that if you push on their abdomen that flow would increase. After all, it is well know that lymph flow increases with muscular contraction and movement. Was it really necessary to kill dogs to show this? Also, this shows nothing about long term implications, or whether or not it actually improves the immune system functioning. If just increasing flow really had that much of an impact they could recommend we all go jogging when we have a cold.

But, the more disturbing thing on a personal level is that when I look at this stuff I see nothing that is legit. No technique that has been proven to work and even if, and when I do see a legit study, I am going to assume it is flawed because so many other studies before have been flawed. When all you see around you is poorly designed studies that draw inappropriate conclusions, you start to think everything related to OMT is crap, even the good stuff.

Schools should really narrow down OMT to those things that have been proven to be effective instead of teaching stuff like cranial, which just makes most students cringe and end up disregarding everything. I would rather have a couple real good techniques with good data to back them up so that I am not embarassed when discussing OMT with MDs, than a whole plethora of unfounded techniques that make us look like quacks.

You're so angry, I can feel your CSF flowing from here......

 

[Tizoc]

Quick, someone CV4 him before he explodes...

We're actually having a Complementary and Alternative Medicine lecture and lab for OMM class today. We'll be learning about chakras, thermal diagnosis, and energy medicine. So if I can't throw a Hadouken after class today, I'll be pissed.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Quick, someone CV4 him before he explodes...

We're actually having a Complementary and Alternative Medicine lecture and lab for OMM class today. We'll be learning about chakras, thermal diagnosis, and energy medicine. So if I can't throw a Hadouken after class today, I'll be pissed.

My desire to apply to DO schools just went don't a few notches... excuse me while I apply to 50 MD schools now...

 

[willen101383]

My desire to apply to DO schools just went don't a few notches... excuse me while I apply to 50 MD schools now...

I am sitting here studying for, ya know, step one...trying to figure out how I am going to pass OMM this year. Its a ****ty feeling to have especially if u consistently smoked your "real" classes. I envy the MD students who dont have to worry about this useless crap.

 

[SLC]

My desire to apply to DO schools just went don't a few notches... excuse me while I apply to 50 MD schools now...

Careful, the biggest complimentary/alternative medicine advocate at my DO school is in fact, an MD.

That being said, it's a little hard to take when I know these things are being discussed with students at OMM club, but it is what it is. I took a group of interviewees on a tour the other night and walked in on the OMM club meeting with their advisor (an OMM specialist) and they were talking about manipulation of Chi. I had to give a huge disclaimer to the applicants, and some of them seemed very uncomfortable from that point on.

Still, at the end of the day, I'm getting a good basic and clinical science education, as well as a strong foundation in physical diagnosis. I don't participate in OMM club and our OMM course is structured in a way that you'd have to try very hard not to pass. I think you'd have to put more concerted effort into not doing a thing, than you would in just barely getting by.

At the end of the day, I'll be a physician just like any of the other docs out there. And I don't foresee myself ever having the time or desire to use OMM on anyone but my family and friends (they really like the thoracic HVLA).

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

MD schools don't make you sit through and learn about CAM though.

 

[SLC]

MD schools don't make you sit through and learn about CAM though.

Neither do DO schools, at least not mine. That is, unless you consider OMM to be CAM. There are a few in my class who really eat CAM up, and a few faculty who believe in it. They tend to seek each other out and start up clubs and such, but I'm in no way required to be exposed to it. The story I just related (after my previous post edit) is the closest I've been to it all year long.

 

[somekindof]

MD schools don't make you sit through and learn about CAM though.

Not all DO school teach that stuff. Mine doesn't.

 

[fiznat]

No technique that has been proven to work and even if, and when I do see a legit study, I am going to assume it is flawed because so many other studies before have been flawed. When all you see around you is poorly designed studies that draw inappropriate conclusions, you start to think everything related to OMT is crap, even the good stuff.

EXACTLY. I've been thinking this very same thing recently. I've gotten to the point that it is very difficult for me to even listen to an OPP lecture, because I tend to dismiss each part outright regardless of it's potential individual merit. Fruit of the poisonous tree, as they say.

It really is too bad, because I think there must be some real value in at least a portion of this discipline, but I'm just so turned off that I don't think I'll recognize it when it passes by.

 

[DocEspana]

my favorite phrase "this is a very well designed study, despite only utilizing one patient"

Actually heard that this morning on JAOA journal club. For the record, study was actually well designed, but that was because it was a well designed *case* study. AKA an anecdote, nothing more. It was on utilizing OMT on atypical chest pain once cardiac enzymes and EKG are negative.

but good lord. Why did I have to spend even 10 minutes covering the "significance" (quoted for mockery) of a 1 person case study on a remarkably common diagnosis. Its not like they dont have 4 people each and every day walk into our ER with the same presenting symptoms and early lab results. Yet they could only muster one person for this case study?

 

[crmellon]

my favorite phrase "this is a very well designed study, despite only utilizing one patient"

Actually heard that this morning on JAOA journal club. For the record, study was actually well designed, but that was because it was a well designed *case* study. AKA an anecdote, nothing more. It was on utilizing OMT on atypical chest pain once cardiac enzymes and EKG are negative.

but good lord. Why did I have to spend even 10 minutes covering the "significance" (quoted for mockery) of a 1 person case study on a remarkably common diagnosis. Its not like they dont have 4 people each and every day walk into our ER with the same presenting symptoms and early lab results. Yet they could only muster one person for this case study?

I kid you not, that very same story was thrown at me during a DO tour of their OMM clinic.

 

[willen101383]

EXACTLY. I've been thinking this very same thing recently. I've gotten to the point that it is very difficult for me to even listen to an OPP lecture, because I tend to dismiss each part outright regardless of it's potential individual merit. Fruit of the poisonous tree, as they say.

It really is too bad, because I think there must be some real value in at least a portion of this discipline, but I'm just so turned off that I don't think I'll recognize it when it passes by.

+1.

Another thing that adds to that is cranial. How the hell do you expect me to believe anything you have to say when you are teaching a technique that has been proven to be BS by study after study? Its like being forced to study at hogworts....except only 4 people in your class actually believe in/can do the spells.

 

[Wolverines83]

+1.

Another thing that adds to that is cranial. How the hell do you expect me to believe anything you have to say when you are teaching a technique that has been proven to be BS by study after study? Its like being forced to study at hogworts....except only 4 people in your class actually believe in/can do the spells.

I think you underestimate how cool it would be to study at Hogworts....

But yeah...back pain, that's about all it's useful for!

 

[donkeykong1]

CAM therapies are not as fringe based as you guys are making them out to be. I'm willing to bet that a few CAM lectures might be offered at allopathic schools as well. there are mainstream institutions out there that offer these therapies in conjunction with "normative" treatments.

See Harvard's BWH which houses the Osher Clinical Center For Complementary and Integrative Medical Therapies: (they even offer cranial sacral therapy)

http://www.brighamandwomens.org/Departments_and_Services/medicine/Services/oshercenter/services.aspx

also NYU Medical center gives a good description of CAM below which includes OMT in the grouping:

http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=24042

 

[donkeykong1]

Apparently according to a close friend there's a senior elective rotation in CAM at NYMC. See below:

Family and Community Medicine at:
NEW YORK MEDICAL COLLEGE
Family and Community Medicine at:
NEW YORK MEDICAL COLLEGE
NAME OF ELECTIVE: Complementary and Alternative Therapies with a Special Focus on
Homeopathy
DEPARTMENT: Family and Community Medicine
LOCATION: School of Health Sciences & Practices
ELECTIVE CODE: FMED 5102 - 999
GME SPECIALTY CODE:
PROGRAM DIRECTOR: Ronald D. Whitmont, M.D.
Tel: (845) 876-6323 E-Mail: [email protected]
Fax: (845) 876-2627
CONTACT PERSON: Dawn
ELECTIVE TIME: Four weeks
PREFFERED DATES: March 2012
EDUCATIONAL GOEALS OF THE ELECTIVES:
1- Introduction to Commonly used Complementary and Alternative Therapies
2- Direct clinical observation of Commonly used CAM Therapies
3- Direct clinical experience of Commonly used CAM Therapies
4- Special focus on Homeopathic Medicine as a form of CAM
EDUCATIONAL OBJECTIVES OF THE ELECTIVES:
1- Introduction to the Medical Science behind Commonly used CAM Therapies
2- Develop a model in which to evaluate the need for CAM Therapies
3- Develop a model in which to evaluate the basis for referral for CAM Therapies
4- Directly experience the effects of several Commonly used CAM Therapies
DESCRIPTION OF STUDENT SCHEDULE AND RESPONSIBILITIES:
Students will attend weekly lectures and discussion groups.
Students will visit several physician offices and clinics weekly for clinical observation.
METHODS OF EVALUATING STUDENT:
Attendance
Participation in Group Discussion 26
ELECTIVE MATERIALS (textbooks, syllabi, references)
1-Complementary and Integrative Medicine in Pain Management. Weintraub MI, Mamtani R, Micozzi MS,
Springer, NY, 2008.
2-Healing with Homeopathy. Jonas WB, Jacobs J. Warner Books, NY, 19

Sure its not like sitting through OMM lab plus doing a required FM/OMM rotation. But these instructions are being offered at Allopathic schools.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Apparently according to a close friend there's a senior elective rotation in CAM at NYMC. See below:

Family and Community Medicine at:
NEW YORK MEDICAL COLLEGE
Family and Community Medicine at:
NEW YORK MEDICAL COLLEGE
NAME OF ELECTIVE: Complementary and Alternative Therapies with a Special Focus on
Homeopathy
DEPARTMENT: Family and Community Medicine
LOCATION: School of Health Sciences & Practices
ELECTIVE CODE: FMED 5102 - 999
GME SPECIALTY CODE:
PROGRAM DIRECTOR: Ronald D. Whitmont, M.D.
Tel: (845) 876-6323 E-Mail: [email protected]
Fax: (845) 876-2627
CONTACT PERSON: Dawn
ELECTIVE TIME: Four weeks
PREFFERED DATES: March 2012
EDUCATIONAL GOEALS OF THE ELECTIVES:
1- Introduction to Commonly used Complementary and Alternative Therapies
2- Direct clinical observation of Commonly used CAM Therapies
3- Direct clinical experience of Commonly used CAM Therapies
4- Special focus on Homeopathic Medicine as a form of CAM
EDUCATIONAL OBJECTIVES OF THE ELECTIVES:
1- Introduction to the Medical Science behind Commonly used CAM Therapies
2- Develop a model in which to evaluate the need for CAM Therapies
3- Develop a model in which to evaluate the basis for referral for CAM Therapies
4- Directly experience the effects of several Commonly used CAM Therapies
DESCRIPTION OF STUDENT SCHEDULE AND RESPONSIBILITIES:
Students will attend weekly lectures and discussion groups.
Students will visit several physician offices and clinics weekly for clinical observation.
METHODS OF EVALUATING STUDENT:
Attendance
Participation in Group Discussion 26
ELECTIVE MATERIALS (textbooks, syllabi, references)
1-Complementary and Integrative Medicine in Pain Management. Weintraub MI, Mamtani R, Micozzi MS,
Springer, NY, 2008.
2-Healing with Homeopathy. Jonas WB, Jacobs J. Warner Books, NY, 19

Sure its not like sitting through OMM lab plus doing a required FM/OMM rotation. But these instructions are being offered at Allopathic schools.

.

 

[lacrosse87]

Apparently according to a close friend there's a senior elective rotation in CAM at NYMC. See below:

Family and Community Medicine at:
NEW YORK MEDICAL COLLEGE
Family and Community Medicine at:
NEW YORK MEDICAL COLLEGE
NAME OF ELECTIVE: Complementary and Alternative Therapies with a Special Focus on
Homeopathy
DEPARTMENT: Family and Community Medicine
LOCATION: School of Health Sciences & Practices
ELECTIVE CODE: FMED 5102 - 999
GME SPECIALTY CODE:
PROGRAM DIRECTOR: Ronald D. Whitmont, M.D.
Tel: (845) 876-6323 E-Mail: [email protected]
Fax: (845) 876-2627
CONTACT PERSON: Dawn
ELECTIVE TIME: Four weeks
PREFFERED DATES: March 2012
EDUCATIONAL GOEALS OF THE ELECTIVES:
1- Introduction to Commonly used Complementary and Alternative Therapies
2- Direct clinical observation of Commonly used CAM Therapies
3- Direct clinical experience of Commonly used CAM Therapies
4- Special focus on Homeopathic Medicine as a form of CAM
EDUCATIONAL OBJECTIVES OF THE ELECTIVES:
1- Introduction to the Medical Science behind Commonly used CAM Therapies
2- Develop a model in which to evaluate the need for CAM Therapies
3- Develop a model in which to evaluate the basis for referral for CAM Therapies
4- Directly experience the effects of several Commonly used CAM Therapies
DESCRIPTION OF STUDENT SCHEDULE AND RESPONSIBILITIES:
Students will attend weekly lectures and discussion groups.
Students will visit several physician offices and clinics weekly for clinical observation.
METHODS OF EVALUATING STUDENT:
Attendance
Participation in Group Discussion 26
ELECTIVE MATERIALS (textbooks, syllabi, references)
1-Complementary and Integrative Medicine in Pain Management. Weintraub MI, Mamtani R, Micozzi MS,
Springer, NY, 2008.
2-Healing with Homeopathy. Jonas WB, Jacobs J. Warner Books, NY, 19

Sure its not like sitting through OMM lab plus doing a required FM/OMM rotation. But these instructions are being offered at Allopathic schools.

What I expect that elective would teach you:

"By diluting your OMT treatment, i.e exerting as little pressure as possible until you're statistically probably not even touching them, you will maximize OMT's efficaciousness." - A.T. Hahnemann





Jk, I think OMT will be cool to learn

 

[donkeykong1]

What I expect that elective would teach you:

"By diluting your OMT treatment, i.e exerting as little pressure as possible until you're statistically probably not even touching them, you will maximize OMT's efficaciousness." - A.T. Hahnemann


Jk, I think OMT will be cool to learn

hmm very cute 😉

@serenade i emphasized your bold shtick in my last 2 sentences btw

But seriously, believe it or not learning these alternative therapies like OMT, emphasizing a holistic approach... feeds into what makes the D.O philosophy unique. I know this sounds like old guard AOA mantra. But it is what it is. This is why OMM is required and is not an elective like CAM is at NYMC, or a CME OMM course at Harvard.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

hmm very cute 😉

@serenade i emphasized your bold shtick in my last 2 sentences btw

But seriously, believe it or not learning these alternative therapies like OMT, emphasizing a holistic approach... feeds into what makes the D.O philosophy unique. I know this sounds like old guard AOA mantra. But it is what it is. This is why OMM is required and is not an elective like CAM is at NYMC, or a CME OMM course at Harvard.

Hmm... There's nothing holistic about cranial sacral therapy and irrelevant relics. The other parts of OMM that are useful and have an application in the medical world are fine and can remain.

 

[donkeykong1]

Hmm... There's nothing holistic about cranial sacral therapy and irrelevant relics. The other parts of OMM that are useful and have an application in the medical world are fine and can remain.

I would argue that CS therapy defintely involves a holistic approach. Sure theres some quackery involved--personally i'm not so enthused about cranial, but it's still a therapy that is used in some mainstream hospitals see my previous post. All of this shouldn't however undermine OMM in general though.

HMS's Consumer Health info says it best:

"It has been proposed that craniosacral therapy may enhance the effects of drugs used for
diabetes, epilepsy or psychiatric disorders, although this has not been tested in scientific
studies. Craniosacral therapy should not be relied on as the sole treatment (instead of
more proven approaches) for potentially severe conditions, and it should not delay
consultation with an appropriate health care provider about a symptom or condition."

and

"Craniosacral therapy has been suggested for many conditions. There are numerous
anecdotes about successful treatment with craniosacral therapy, although effectiveness
and safety have not been thoroughly tested scientifically. Speak with your health care
provider if you are considering treatment with craniosacral therapy."


http://www.icsb.ch/en/med/pdf/Harvard_Craniosacral_Therapy.pdf

 

[willen101383]

I think you underestimate how cool it would be to study at Hogworts....

But yeah...back pain, that's about all it's useful for!

Oh it definitely would be awesome. In fact my first spell would be:

"Willenum transfericum institutionari allopathicum!" Poof!

 

[CXCR4]

Oh it definitely would be awesome. In fact my first spell would be:

"Willenum transfericum institutionari allopathicum!" Poof!

Swish and flick. It's all in the wrist.

 

[DocEspana]

Oh it definitely would be awesome. In fact my first spell would be:

"Willenum transfericum institutionari allopathicum!" Poof!

Thought that said Willenium. Stopped right there and began singing songs from Big Willy Style.

 

[toxicwombat]

I was perhaps not clear enough the first time with my
Don't counteract skepticism and any critiques by declaring "then you're not allowed in our tree fort! Go climb a caribbean coconut tree. Build a fort there". No one appreciates OMM before they go into school. Almost no one appreciates it after graduation. The few people who do appreciate it before enrollment are the kind of people I avoid. People go into DO schools because they want to be physicians. Done deal. Case closed. Don't try to act like the forum is the exclusive club and you're the bouncer. Be more along the lines of this forum is a BJ's wholesale club or a Costco and you're the 82 year old lady with a toaster oven giving out samples. Warm. Friendly. Slightly Senile. Loved by everyone.

Great post, especially the bold.

This really should have ended the thread.... but no, we're mid-way through page 3 already.

 

[toxicwombat]

CAM therapies are not as fringe based as you guys are making them out to be. I'm willing to bet that a few CAM lectures might be offered at allopathic schools as well. there are mainstream institutions out there that offer these therapies in conjunction with "normative" treatments.

See Harvard's BWH which houses the Osher Clinical Center For Complementary and Integrative Medical Therapies: (they even offer cranial sacral therapy)

also NYU Medical center gives a good description of CAM below which includes OMT in the grouping:

Yes, and your tax payer dollars sponsor CAM research, and even highly respected journals like NEJM publish articles on the stuff. I mean, hell, even probiotic* supplements were advertised on the back cover of a recent issue of NEJM

But that does NOT legitimize any of it. You need more Dr. Mark Crislip in your life, sir. Or just start reading ciencebasedmedicine.org (seriously wish that site was required reading for all health students) This would be a good post to start with.

But, whatever you do, please do not be so naive as to assume that just because something is taught at Harvard, it is HAS to have validity. The world doesn't work like that (sadly).



*Yes, I know probiotics have been proven to be quite effective for treatment of antibiotic-induced diarrhea and possibly colic, but that's not the point -- I'm referring to its more commonly advertised use as a supplement for "gut health".

 

[donkeykong1]

Yes, and your tax payer dollars sponsor CAM research, and even highly respected journals like NEJM publish articles on the stuff. I mean, hell, even probiotic* supplements were advertised on the back cover of a recent issue of NEJM

But that does NOT legitimize any of it. You need more Dr. Mark Crislip in your life, sir. Or just start reading ciencebasedmedicine.org (seriously wish that site was required reading for all health students) This would be a good post to start with.

But, whatever you do, please do not be so naive as to assume that just because something is taught at Harvard, it is HAS to have validity. The world doesn't work like that (sadly).



*Yes, I know probiotics have been proven to be quite effective for treatment of antibiotic-induced diarrhea and possibly colic, but that's not the point -- I'm referring to its more commonly advertised use as a supplement for "gut health".

chillax man you didn't read my post correctly. i agree with your sentiment...didn't say much about validity, simply stated that they are not as fringe based as most people assume they are since they have infiltrated the mainstream i.e harvard, nejm....

 

[gustave7787]

When I interviewed, I was unsure about OMM and using it but after hearing the OMM fellows talk to us about it, I was really excited for it. Even if you don't think OMM is for you, Iearning it does enhance your education simply by the fact that your palpation skills will be 100 times better than an allopath's. To be honest, it takes up 2.5 hours of my week and it's actually a nice break from the hard sciences.

 

[thepoopologist]

 

[Bacchus]

When I interviewed, I was unsure about OMM and using it but after hearing the OMM fellows talk to us about it, I was really excited for it. Even if you don't think OMM is for you, Iearning it does enhance your education simply by the fact that your palpation skills will be 100 times better than an allopath's. To be honest, it takes up 2.5 hours of my week and it's actually a nice break from the hard sciences.

The fellows are being brainwashed 😉.

 

[TriagePreMed]

I don't see why people make a big deal about this. It's not a lot of time that's spent on this. Sure, some of it may be BS, but so what? A lot of stuff you'll learn in med school will be useless in the future, and honestly, I rather know this stuff because with the sound effects of cracking and stuff I can put my hands on a hot lady pretending it'll do something for her, or when I'm married, I can do some placebo thing that'll make my wife feel better when I know her problem is in her head. Don't waste so much time thinking about OMM. It's not a big deal, and if you're interested only in stuff that's science based, well, it sucks that you have to do this but at least the lower back stuff isn't pseudoscience.

 

[willen101383]

I don't see why people make a big deal about this. It's not a lot of time that's spent on this. Sure, some of it may be BS, but so what? A lot of stuff you'll learn in med school will be useless in the future, and honestly, I rather know this stuff because with the sound effects of cracking and stuff I can put my hands on a hot lady pretending it'll do something for her, or when I'm married, I can do some placebo thing that'll make my wife feel better when I know her problem is in her head. Don't waste so much time thinking about OMM. It's not a big deal, and if you're interested only in stuff that's science based, well, it sucks that you have to do this but at least the lower back stuff isn't pseudoscience.

Sure its not a big deal on the surface. If the OMM depts (ive heard they are this way at most schools) were reasonable, werent operating with chips on their shoulders, etc it wouldnt be a big deal. But when you throw in the fact that our dept is completely negligent, feels like they run the school, refuse to cooperate with other depts, schedule exams/practicals at extremely inconvenient times it makes for a horrible time. They have turned people who liked OMM at the beginning into OMM haters. And if you start out as an OMM hater its becomes absolute hell for you. Take me for example. I was easily above the means on every exam of M1/M2 for all my regular courses. The OMM dept LOVED to put our omm written exams the day before a final for another class. AKA you need to pick your battles....and my battle is always going to be doing well on my REAL coursework. As a result I am now in danger of failing OMM for the year because halfway through last year the OMM dept decided we needed to have 70+ grades on EVERY component of the course separately. So even though I have 90s on every practical except for 2 I am still in danger. You think thats the kind of **** I want to be worrying about right now during my step 1 prep time? That I might get pulled off rotations because of fcking OMM? Its miserable. So again, on the surface OMM may not be a huge deal...but when you throw in the malignant operation of most OMM depts...it becomes a disproportionate pain in the *****...and if you go in hating OMM its a recipe for absolute misery.


Oh...and every time i try to do any OMM on my wife it invariably makes X worse lol

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

I don't see why people make a big deal about this. It's not a lot of time that's spent on this. Sure, some of it may be BS, but so what? A lot of stuff you'll learn in med school will be useless in the future, and honestly, I rather know this stuff because with the sound effects of cracking and stuff I can put my hands on a hot lady pretending it'll do something for her, or when I'm married, I can do some placebo thing that'll make my wife feel better when I know her problem is in her head. Don't waste so much time thinking about OMM. It's not a big deal, and if you're interested only in stuff that's science based, well, it sucks that you have to do this but at least the lower back stuff isn't pseudoscience.

I'm just struck by how contentious this thread is.

It's not so much that I care 'only' about science stuff. For instance I've worked in mental health and addictions for 2+ years and despite being an unabashed atheist I see lots of people take to religion/spirituality and I find that if it helps them fill a hole in their life or make positive changes I actually encourage people to explore it further.

My gripe is that I have a genuine disinterest in OMM. Not 'hatred' just disinterest and disbelief in its utility.

Even though an osteopathic school maybe the best, perhaps even the only, chance I have at training to become a physician in North America I have no interest in going somewhere to simply disrespect a school and its philosophy even if it meant that I would be a physician at the end of it. That's why I started this thread, to get feedback (and of course I'm going to base ALL of my medical education decisions simply upon what people say on the interwebs 🙄). What's confusing is that most, not just a few renegades but most, of the people who do go DO and become practicing physicians don't even bother with OMM once they leave. This suggests to me that either some schools don't take OMM very seriously or many people go to DO schools and simply inure OMM in order to become physicians and maybe I shouldn't be so worried about going to an osteopathic school.

If I could go through an osteopathic program, become a physician and practice in the US or Canada you bet your bottom dollar I'd jump all over it in a heartbeat. Even if it meant all I had to do was inure one class I disliked and considered silly.

 

[LSU Alex]

You could always do this for the 2 hours a week that they detain you and force you to learn OMT...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqymcJRSbxI

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

You could always do this for the 2 hours a week that they detain you and force you to learn OMT...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqymcJRSbxI

 

[Werthers]

You could always do this for the 2 hours a week that they detain you and force you to learn OMT...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqymcJRSbxI

or admire all the nice looking boys/girls in the omm lab... its not a big deal at all i don't care for omm but i don't let it bother me...just like any other class: "cooperate and graduate".... another thing is its an activity course.. very hard to fall asleep in the omm lab lol

 

[ruiner]

Hey guys,

If you don't know my background, I'm a non-trad suffering from a mediocre (well, normal people mediocre, 3.1) GPA and trying pretty smelly bad to winde up in a med school in 2-3 years time. I've recently been researching into DO schools and realize that that is probably the best shot I have at practicing medicine within the immediate future. Trust me, I'm extremely grateful to anyone who would teach me the craft of medicine and allow me to practice and I don't really care if the last letters after my name are MD, DO, MBBS or even LOL.

My dilemma comes from the DO practice of OMT and OMM. I don't have a problem with treating a person holistically and understanding their psychosocial background (you are talking to a social worker for heaven's sake) but I do have a problem with the actual manipulation techniques taught at these schools. The research I've gathered from their efficacy seems to suggest their only effective at ameliorating lower back pain and don't have any significant value outside of that. I know it's only one aspect of DO school and you still learn all of the clinically relevant sciences like MD schools but I fear that learning OMT would be a real grind for me. The AOA seems quite adamant that it stay in accredited school curriculum and I fear that if I do go to a DO school and present with the sort of attitude that 'lol OMT are for teh qwacks, ritardz and sientiphically lazee 😀' that I will get a sort of >8[ response from faculty which could surely affect my class standing and career prospects (a bit arrogant on my part, maybe but the many DOs who don't even bother with OMT when they leave school can't all be wrong).

Jejune candor aside, is it foolish of me to not want to go to a DO school on the basis of disliking OMT alone? I bet there are plenty of people who go to a DO school with the mindset 'OMT is bull****' but I don't like the idea of going to a school where you would, pardon the crassness, piss all over the school's philosophy (even though I think medicine is really the biggest component of that philosophy which I absolutely 😍)

I do counter myself with the fact that I am currently working 30 hour weeks while taking a full science course load riddled with weeders and manning a bunch of other ECs just to be able to get into med school anywhere. So maybe I should be able to grin and bear giving up several hundred hours of my life to something I consider pseudoscientific bull**** to be able to practice medicine or no?

there are many dos who have no interest in using OMM. don't let anyone tell you otherwise. thousands of students graduate every year with no interest of ever putting that part of their education to use. yes there are some gung ho do docs who are all about it and are going to the school to learn it, yes it has its uses, but for most (most may be overstating, should have wrote many) its just a ways to an end, so i would say go for it.

 

[Limvostov]

Heh I feel ya man, Im on a required OMM rotation right now. Every patient gets a cranial evaluation. God help me.

You gotta treat the whole patient otherwise how will they tend toward healing? I prefer to face Kirksville when I practice in class so that our lord and savior A.T. Still can work through me and guide my treatments.

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

You gotta treat the whole patient otherwise how will they tend toward healing? I prefer to face Kirksville when I practice in class so that our lord and savior A.T. Still can work through me and guide my treatments.

5 times daily?

 

[crmellon]

You gotta treat the whole patient otherwise how will they tend toward healing? I prefer to face Kirksville when I practice in class so that our lord and savior A.T. Still can work through me and guide my treatments.

Have you made your pilgrimage yet?

 

[willen101383]

You gotta treat the whole patient otherwise how will they tend toward healing? I prefer to face Kirksville when I practice in class so that our lord and savior A.T. Still can work through me and guide my treatments.

Bravo! I am going to steal ur funny sometime when I am making fun of OMM