Is General Surgery "competitive?"

[singularity2012]

I've searched for this topic on SDN and have been getting results from like 2 years ago. The general consensus is that it is a relatively easy residency to match into if you're not that picky...different from several years ago when it was considered highly competitive.

But in reviewing recent match statistics from the NRMP, General Surgery has about the same non-match rate as Neurosurgery (~15%), which is clearly near the top of the list in terms of competitiveness...

Any med students or M.D.s have thoughts about this?

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[Pinkertinkle]

the non match rate is a pretty crummy measure of competitiveness for several reasons, in particular self selection. I'm sure others will chime in with more. Average step 1 score is used as a reasonable proxy for competitiveness though that has its flaws as well. Given that general surgery has an average around the national step 1 average I would say it is middle of the pack in terms of competitiveness.

 

[runrunrudolph1]

Surgery in general is pretty competitive. Granted if you are going general surgery it will be more competitive than other less "strenuous" and it will be harder than the shorter residencies, but it will be less competitive than the specialized surgery residencies (ex. cardiothoracics, ortho, neuro)

 

[VoiceofReason]

Surgery in general is pretty competitive. Granted if you are going general surgery it will be more competitive than other less "strenuous" and it will be harder than the shorter residencies, but it will be less competitive than the specialized surgery residencies (ex. cardiothoracics, ortho, neuro)

just nitpicking but cardiothoracic is a fellowship after general slavery. There are direct pathways in CT but I was under the impression that they are few and far between.

to answer the op's question general surgery is pretty much middle of the pack competitive.

 

[pntgrd]

Surgery in general is pretty competitive. Granted if you are going general surgery it will be more competitive than other less "strenuous" and it will be harder than the shorter residencies, but it will be less competitive than the specialized surgery residencies (ex. cardiothoracics, ortho, neuro)

Actually, gen surgery is not competitive relatively. It is about average.

 

[runrunrudolph1]

just nitpicking but cardiothoracic is a fellowship after general slavery. There are direct pathways in CT but I was under the impression that they are few and far between.

to answer the op's question general surgery is pretty much middle of the pack competitive.

At the med school I'm applying to cardiothoracics is a combined specialized degree residency that lasts 6 years. No general surgery. But than again, every hospital is different I guess

 

[BlueElmo]

I actually heard somewhere GS is starting to get more competitve.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Surgery in general is pretty competitive. Granted if you are going general surgery it will be more competitive than other less "strenuous" and it will be harder than the shorter residencies, but it will be less competitive than the specialized surgery residencies (ex. cardiothoracics, ortho, neuro)

i dont really understand your post, are u sure u know what you're talking about?

 

[runrunrudolph1]

i dont really understand your post, are u sure u know what you're talking about?

harder than residencies that are 3-4 years (int. med etc)

easier than specialty surgery residencies (ortho, neuro etc)

 

[Richzz89]

Found a really cool website from Wash U in St. Louis about the different residencies

http://residency.wustl.edu/medadmin/resweb.nsf/

It includes length of residencies

http://residency.wustl.edu/medadmin...3edd4e91945f8a2b86256f850071ae49?OpenDocument

and also information about the different specialties such as the competitiveness, median salary, and different fellowships with subspecialities.

http://residency.wustl.edu/medadmin/resweb.nsf/WV/62353A93C5C35CB186256F850071BD86?OpenDocument

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I think it also matters where you want to match. I feel like matching at a top general surgery residency would be just as competitive as some of the highly competitive specialties. Can any med student/resident/attending verify whether my view is accurate?

 

[MrBurns10]

harder than residencies that are 3-4 years (int. med etc)

easier than specialty surgery residencies (ortho, neuro etc)

That's an incorrect generalization. While gen surg is more competitive than internal medicine, it has nothing to do with length of residency. Look no further than derm (4 years) and ophtho (4 years) to see that the shorter residencies do not necessarily mean less competitive.

You are right in that it's less competitive than the surg subspecialties.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

harder than residencies that are 3-4 years (int. med etc)

easier than specialty surgery residencies (ortho, neuro etc)

just use my wonderful chart to determine approximate relative competitiveness. As noted length of residency does not correlate well with competitiveness.

 

[babydragon]

how do you interpret this chart?

 

[Pinkertinkle]

how do you interpret this chart?

The further left, the more competitive

 

[Instatewaiter]

A few things:

General surgery has become somewhat out of vogue for med students. So nowm generally it is pretty easy to match into as seen by its board scores.

The match rate is 90%. That is brought down by the fact that many people use it as a back up. So they apply to say plastics and then a few general surgery as back ups. If they match plastics they dont match into general surgery.

Many of the cool surgeries have been cherry picked by specialties. GS often gets left with whatever is left over like Cholecystectomies and appendectomies and herniorrhaphies (hernia repairs). After you have seen 2 of these surgeries they completely lose their appeal. If I ever have to see another lap chole, someone is going to get hurt.

The residency is generally brutal.

Life as an attending doesn't change a whole heck of a lot.

 

[BlueElmo]

A few things:

General surgery has become somewhat out of vogue for med students. So nowm generally it is pretty easy to match into as seen by its board scores.

The match rate is 90%. That is brought down by the fact that many people use it as a back up. So they apply to say plastics and then a few general surgery as back ups. If they match plastics they dont match into general surgery.

Many of the cool surgeries have been cherry picked by specialties. GS often gets left with whatever is left over like Cholecystectomies and appendectomies and herniorrhaphies (hernia repairs). After you have seen 2 of these surgeries they completely lose their appeal. If I ever have to see another lap chole, someone is going to get hurt.

The residency is generally brutal.

Life as an attending doesn't change a whole heck of a lot.

Thanks, instatewaiter! This is a really clear post. 👍

So I heard the hours are really bad for general surgeons. Do you know what the hours are usually like for them?

 

[smash]

Thanks, instatewaiter! This is a really clear post. 👍

So I heard the hours are really bad for general surgeons. Do you know what the hours are usually like for them?

I can't say that this is the truth everywhere, but at the hospital where I currently work (in the OR) the general surgeons seem to take a ton of call and unlike the attendings for the other surgical specialties the EGS and trauma attendings have to take their call in the hospital, rather than from home.

 

[tkim]

General surgery is middle of the road in terms of competitiveness - near anesthesia, EM, OB/GYN. Reasons why it's neither higher or lower are varied, but length of residency is one, stricter (lower than past years) residency hours are another, lifestyle after residency is yet another.

Honestly, if you discover that you love surgery (or any other specialty, for that matter), will any of these things matter as much?

 

[Nanon]

I can't say that this is the truth everywhere, but at the hospital where I currently work (in the OR) the general surgeons seem to take a ton of call and unlike the attendings for the other surgical specialties the EGS and trauma attendings have to take their call in the hospital, rather than from home.

I worked in the surgery dept. of a major county trauma hospital, and yes, this pretty much describes the working conditions of the surgeons. Also, this was an academic institution, so there was an added research burden (publish or perish), and they had residents and medical students to teach as well. They asked me often if I intended to do surgery. I would always tell them "Heck no. I'm too lazy, and you guys work too hard!"

Btw, the residency really is brutal, no joke about that. The people who enjoyed their residency at all really loved surgery more than anything (or anyone) else.

 

[MegaProjectile]

A few things:

General surgery has become somewhat out of vogue for med students. So nowm generally it is pretty easy to match into as seen by its board scores.

The match rate is 90%. That is brought down by the fact that many people use it as a back up. So they apply to say plastics and then a few general surgery as back ups. If they match plastics they dont match into general surgery.

Many of the cool surgeries have been cherry picked by specialties. GS often gets left with whatever is left over like Cholecystectomies and appendectomies and herniorrhaphies (hernia repairs). After you have seen 2 of these surgeries they completely lose their appeal. If I ever have to see another lap chole, someone is going to get hurt.

The residency is generally brutal.

Life as an attending doesn't change a whole heck of a lot.

While GS is non-competitive, it's still the gate-way to many other subspecialities like vascular, breast oncology, CT, trauma ..etc. True general surgeons are becoming extinct as most specialize further while also taking bread-and-butter cases like appy, whipple, and chols.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

As someone about to apply to general surgery, it's competitive enough to be a bit nervous about the whole process. General surgery is on an upswing in terms of competitiveness, not a downswing. It's not at the level of ortho/ent/etc but it has gotten harder.

And, like just about any field, there is a big difference between the overall level of difficulty in matching, and the difficulty matching at one of the "top" programs. The stats of the residents at Hopkins, MGH, UCSF, and the like are through the roof.