Is it hopeless for me? Prospective PsyD student

[Psycholog]

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This isn't really a "will I get into a program" thread, as I'm only a sophomore in college as of now.

Basically, I have wanted to pursue a career in psychology since the age of 10. Knowing this, I have tried to gain as much experience as possible (and am interested in psych, of course). I'm not interested in research AT ALL, so I think I want to go on the path of a PsyD. (Unless PHD pays significantly more??)

My experience includes:

- Working for a summer in a rehabilitation center for schizophrenics
- Working in 3 different research labs, each for a semester (got credit for one of them). Right now I'm working under a professor who is prominent in the field of psych and can hopefully eventually get a letter of rec for him.
- (This is one of the best things on my resume, I think): Working for an organization that promotes trauma informed care around the country. We go to various forensic hospitals and prisons around the country, teaching the staff how to stop using seclusion and restraint. I got to fly all over the country and go to these hospitals/prisons, taking notes on our conferences with wardens/direct care staff. I learned a huge amount about psych from it and am doing it again this summer.
- Working for my school's crisis hotline, being trained to answer phones and deal with situations from light stress to immediate suicides.

So, as you guys can see I'm really into psych and am continually trying to gain experience both clinically and research wise.

Unfortunately, my GPA is at 3.45 right now (I'll be retaking a class soon that will boost it to about 3.6). I'm not sure if I'll be able to keep it above a 3.5

I feel my unique advantage is that I know what I want to do and have been trying to build myself up for awhile. I'm just really worried - this is the biggest goal I've ever had in life, and after reading these forums I've been pretty discouraged haha.

So am I hopeless? How much does my experience help me in my eventual application process?

Also, I'm having a huge amount of trouble finding good PsyD rankings and stuff. How do I figure all that out? Google isn't being too helpful. And even though I'm not interested in research, could a counseling-based PhD be good for me?

Thanks guys!!

 

[Veit]

I have a similar level of experience, and my undergraduate overall GPA was a 3.38, with similar psych grades. I don't know if I'm going to get into any of them, but I just today got my third invitation to interview for admission to a clinical PsyD program, and have yet to be rejected anywhere. So if I have a chance, you have a chance! For reference, though, I believe my GRE scores are quite competitive (Quant 85%, Verbal 99%, Writing 99%, Psych 93%), and I'm not sure how greatly that influenced the decision to invite me to interviews. Bust your ass for the GREs, I'm saying.

What I've been told to check out when looking at a program is their internship match rate, licensure rate, and class size. What you want to be looking for is a match rate at least above 85%, and a class size in the twenties at absolute maximum. Theoretical orientation is something that should influence your decision personally, I assume. It also helps to look at schools that are associated with universities, rather than professional or for-profit schools. Maybe someone less clueless than I could direct you more in that regard. You can also find lists of schools based on student EPPP scores, like this one: http://psydprograms.net/schools-ranked/

 

[jruth0rj]

Hi,

I'm currently applying to PsyD programs and one PhD program for combined school/clinical psych (JMU). I understand your feelings about research - it's not necessarily my favorite aspect in psychology, but understand its importance and have actually found some areas that I really do enjoy partaking in.

I wouldn't worry about the GPA if you are going the PsyD route. A 3.4 is pretty average among applicants - if it's a 3.5, then you're going to appear as a really strong applicant. One thing to think about is the GRE. Everyone hates it, but it's a necessary evil. Most PsyD programs have lower cut-offs for GRE scores, so that's to your advantage. I would say that if you have a 1200 (which is what I had), you'll meet the average score for most admitted applicants. However, if you do change and decide to go the PhD route, you would absolutely want to bump that up at least another 100 points (I don't know what the new scoring system is now...I took mine about 2 years ago).

The big thing with PsyD programs is experience, which I really appreciate. I'm 26 and graduated from a public instate university in 2007. Afterwards, I went to a really good school for a Masters in Psychology. I decided I wanted to take some time afterwards and work, and found jobs in a group home, doing outreach, and now I direct a dual diagnosis group residence. During my last interview, the faculty member was impressed with the risk and clinical issues I had encountered. I was just accepted there today, as a matter of fact.

I would say that if you are only interested in PsyD programs, think about cost. It is WICKED expensive. If you're truly interested in helping people, you can get a MSW from a good public in-state school and get that experience to become independently licensed...you'll be respected and have less financial worries in the future. However, if your heart is set on the "Dr" aspect, the schools that I have heard that are highly regarded are Rutgers, Loyola Maryland, Pepperdine (Masters required), Hartford, Denver, Virginia Consortium, etc...

Some people take issue with the idea of Professional schools, but I trust you'll form your own opinion when the time comes. I interviewed at MSPP recently, mainly due to the fact that I'm a Boston resident, and I was really impressed with the faculty-student dynamic and training opportunities.

Hope this helps!

 

[Psycholog]

Thanks guys!! Also, is a PsyD the best route for me if I don't enjoy research? Or would considering a counseling PHD be wise?

 

[Tesseract18]

Thanks guys!! Also, is a PsyD the best route for me if I don't enjoy research? Or would considering a counseling PHD be wise?

Nope. Counseling doctoral programs are as research intensive as clinical programs. Not going to be a good fit unless the research and training in such programs suit your interests (but with what you mentioned, it seems you might be better suited in clinical). Do a bit more digging on the forum and elsewhere about the differences between Clinical and Counseling Ph.D. versus the Psy.D.

 

[vivaloca]

Also, I'm having a huge amount of trouble finding good PsyD rankings and stuff. How do I figure all that out? Google isn't being too helpful. And even though I'm not interested in research, could a counseling-based PhD be good for me?

Thanks guys!!

In general, while PsyD programs have less of a focus on research, it is still a fairly important component of doctoral training (as a knowledgeable psychologist needs to, at minimum, be able to read and understand current literature regarding treatment and assessment. At minimum, you would be completing an empirically-based doctoral dissertation, and likely some type of master's thesis, as well as a number of research methods and stats classes.

As far as GPA and all your other stats go, it's great to keep that in mind, but if you're only a sophomore in college then you have a few years. Keep trying out research labs, and volunteering/working with clinically-based programs, and perhaps try to figure out what type of disorders or populations you may like to treat, as any grad school will want to know more about your interest than "I like psychology."

As the other posters said, cost, location, match rates, etc are important factors to consider. Additionally, pursuing a doctorate is more than training in therapy, but includes research, assessment, and the ability to communicate clearly in a scientific and accurate manner. If these facets don't interest you, you may also want to consider and MSW or MA in Mental Health Counseling (something that can lead to licensing).

Feel free to PM me if you have other questions...I hope this was helpful and not too much detail 🙄

 

[Psycholog]

In general, while PsyD programs have less of a focus on research, it is still a fairly important component of doctoral training (as a knowledgeable psychologist needs to, at minimum, be able to read and understand current literature regarding treatment and assessment. At minimum, you would be completing an empirically-based doctoral dissertation, and likely some type of master's thesis, as well as a number of research methods and stats classes.

As far as GPA and all your other stats go, it's great to keep that in mind, but if you're only a sophomore in college then you have a few years. Keep trying out research labs, and volunteering/working with clinically-based programs, and perhaps try to figure out what type of disorders or populations you may like to treat, as any grad school will want to know more about your interest than "I like psychology."

As the other posters said, cost, location, match rates, etc are important factors to consider. Additionally, pursuing a doctorate is more than training in therapy, but includes research, assessment, and the ability to communicate clearly in a scientific and accurate manner. If these facets don't interest you, you may also want to consider and MSW or MA in Mental Health Counseling (something that can lead to licensing).

Feel free to PM me if you have other questions...I hope this was helpful and not too much detail 🙄

Interesting - yeah, I'm not too interested in the scientific aspects that you mentioned. I wonder, however, about the eventual pay? I would totally get a PHD if it ends up paying significantly more than PsyD...and the reason I don't really want to go the MSW route is because it pays almost nothing (right?). It's a pretty big concern. I'm not too concerned about the cost of the PsyD program as I think I have the money to pay for it (not sure about this though, I'll look into it).

But yeah, MSW seems to be very little pay in the end.

 

[Pragma]

Interesting - yeah, I'm not too interested in the scientific aspects that you mentioned. I wonder, however, about the eventual pay? I would totally get a PHD if it ends up paying significantly more than PsyD...and the reason I don't really want to go the MSW route is because it pays almost nothing (right?). It's a pretty big concern. I'm not too concerned about the cost of the PsyD program as I think I have the money to pay for it (not sure about this though, I'll look into it).

But yeah, MSW seems to be very little pay in the end.

You've got like 100K lying around somewhere?

If that's the case and you are concerned about long term earnings, you might be able to make some wiser investments than getting into the mental health field. It does not pay as well as you would hope.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

You've got like 100K lying around somewhere?

If that's the case and you are concerned about long term earnings, you might be able to make some wiser investments than getting into the mental health field. It does not pay as well as you would hope.

Agreed. Unfunded Psy.D. programs can be very expensive (e.g., as Pragma pointed out, $100k+ for tuition alone). MSW programs are also going to cost some money, as they (I believe) are often unfunded as well, although I'd imagine the average debt is probably close to $100k less vs. an unfunded Psy.D. The difference in pay may or may not be large enough to justify the additional expense.

Perhaps even more importantly, though, are the happiness and job satisfaction components. If you aren't at all interested in the "scientific aspects," as you mention, that I personally would strongly suggest against a doctoral degree. A big part of what we do, how we're trained, and what we uniquely bring to the table as doctoral-level providers relates to our scientific/research training, whether it pertains directly to service delivery, administration, program development and monitoring, supervision, consultation, etc.

To answer your other questions:

1) No, a ~3.45 GPA will not in and of itself render your application hopeless at many/most programs, whether they be Psy.D. or Ph.D.

2) You're having trouble finding good rankings because, when it comes to doctoral psych programs, they don't exist; there are numerous quantitative (e.g., number of faculty, cohort size, aid types and availability, average numbers publications of faculty and students, internship match rates, EPPP pass rates) and qualitative (fit with the program and your potential mentor, research/clinical opportunities, placement types of previous students, compatibility with the city you'll be living in) that factor into deciding which site(s) will be a good match for. No existing ranking system takes all (or even most) of these areas into account, in large part because many will differ from person to person.

 

[Psycholog]

Agreed. Unfunded Psy.D. programs can be very expensive (e.g., as Pragma pointed out, $100k+ for tuition alone). MSW programs are also going to cost some money, as they (I believe) are often unfunded as well, although I'd imagine the average debt is probably close to $100k less vs. an unfunded Psy.D. The difference in pay may or may not be large enough to justify the additional expense.

Perhaps even more importantly, though, are the happiness and job satisfaction components. If you aren't at all interested in the "scientific aspects," as you mention, that I personally would strongly suggest against a doctoral degree. A big part of what we do, how we're trained, and what we uniquely bring to the table as doctoral-level providers relates to our scientific/research training, whether it pertains directly to service delivery, administration, program development and monitoring, supervision, consultation, etc.

To answer your other questions:

1) No, a ~3.45 GPA will not in and of itself render your application hopeless at many/most programs, whether they be Psy.D. or Ph.D.

2) You're having trouble finding good rankings because, when it comes to doctoral psych programs, they don't exist; there are numerous quantitative (e.g., number of faculty, cohort size, aid types and availability, average numbers publications of faculty and students, internship match rates, EPPP pass rates) and qualitative (fit with the program and your potential mentor, research/clinical opportunities, placement types of previous students, compatibility with the city you'll be living in) that factor into deciding which site(s) will be a good match for. No existing ranking system takes all (or even most) of these areas into account, in large part because many will differ from person to person.

Hmm maybe I could teach myself to like PHD? It seems like the most respected/most paying job. I'm willing to go through the research aspects of the school (and not have to pay for it) in order to eventually become a psychologist...but I know so many people with 4.0's who can't get in! And it seems like the clinical experience I've had would do nothing to help me get in.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Hmm maybe I could teach myself to like PHD? It seems like the most respected/most paying job. I'm willing to go through the research aspects of the school (and not have to pay for it) in order to eventually become a psychologist...but I know so many people with 4.0's who can't get in! And it seems like the clinical experience I've had would do nothing to help me get in.

I don't know that it's something you can teach yourself to like, although it's very possible that it would simply take the right topic, client population, advisor, etc. to pique your interest.

Also, keep in mind that there are no differences in the positions filled by/offered to a Ph.D. vs. Psy.D.-holding provider; they're equivalent degrees as far as the job market is concerned. The largest area of existing favortism would probably be traditional academia, which still widely prefers the Ph.D.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Hmm maybe I could teach myself to like PHD? It seems like the most respected/most paying job. I'm willing to go through the research aspects of the school (and not have to pay for it) in order to eventually become a psychologist...but I know so many people with 4.0's who can't get in! And it seems like the clinical experience I've had would do nothing to help me get in.

You have the wrong mindset, as so many do. Of course, everyone would LOVE to get into a PhD program because of the funding! But if you abhore research, it will either show distinctly in your application (with no real experience) or you will be taking the spot away from someone who really, truly loves research, although it is unlikely that you will be able to pretend as much as you need to to get in.

I'm assuming you are very young--around 20? Correct me if I'm wrong. If you are not excelling in academia and don't like research, you need to do yourself a favor and take at least a few years and explore this field. Those who are getting into programs must prove themselves to be mature and committed to the field. There's nothing wrong with having a dream, but don't drink the kool-aid of thinking you must achieve your dreams or else life will be meaningless. Dreams and goals change throughout life. Slow down and live a little.

 

[Psycholog]

You have the wrong mindset, as so many do. Of course, everyone would LOVE to get into a PhD program because of the funding! But if you abhore research, it will either show distinctly in your application (with no real experience) or you will be taking the spot away from someone who really, truly loves research, although it is unlikely that you will be able to pretend as much as you need to to get in.

I'm assuming you are very young--around 20? Correct me if I'm wrong. If you are not excelling in academia and don't like research, you need to do yourself a favor and take at least a few years and explore this field. Those who are getting into programs must prove themselves to be mature and committed to the field. There's nothing wrong with having a dream, but don't drink the kool-aid of thinking you must achieve your dreams or else life will be meaningless. Dreams and goals change throughout life. Slow down and live a little.

I don't like the process of doing research - this doesn't mean, however, that I don't enjoy the results. I will have had quite a bit of research experience when I apply to PhD programs, although I'm not sure if it will be enough. You're correct - I'm 20 - but I'm more mature than most people my age. Also, I'm not suggesting that I need to "drink the koolaid" - that implies I am not thinking of my future goal.

Rather than drinking kool aid, I think of doing a PhD as a slight inconvenience that would lead to a better future. If there are counseling PhD programs out there that will train me as well as a PsyD but allow me to excel more in the field of psychology, I feel I should do it. I can't make decisions in life based upon what opportunities I may be taking from others - if that was the case, I wouldn't be working in the lab I'm currently working in.

On the other hand, I have no intrest in pursuing academia (as of now at least), so maybe a PhD wouldn't be good. I appreciate your advice, though!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

You have the wrong mindset, as so many do. Of course, everyone would LOVE to get into a PhD program because of the funding! But if you abhore research, it will either show distinctly in your application (with no real experience) or you will be taking the spot away from someone who really, truly loves research, although it is unlikely that you will be able to pretend as much as you need to to get in.

I'm assuming you are very young--around 20? Correct me if I'm wrong. If you are not excelling in academia and don't like research, you need to do yourself a favor and take at least a few years and explore this field. Those who are getting into programs must prove themselves to be mature and committed to the field. There's nothing wrong with having a dream, but don't drink the kool-aid of thinking you must achieve your dreams or else life will be meaningless. Dreams and goals change throughout life. Slow down and live a little.

👍

In the process of slowing down and re-evaluating, you might even make a realization similar to one I had about a decade back--the dream you've been chasing for the majority of your life may be sticking around for no other reason than simple force of habit.

If, after exploring the field a bit more, you still want to go for a doctoral degree in clinical psych, awesome. But if not, that's ok, too.

 

[Psycholog]

👍

In the process of slowing down and re-evaluating, you might even make a realization similar to one I had about a decade back--the dream you've been chasing for the majority of your life may be sticking around for no other reason than simple force of habit.

If, after exploring the field a bit more, you still want to go for a doctoral degree in clinical psych, awesome. But if not, that's ok, too.

The dream is there and strong - I want to eventually have a private practice, along with some sort of consulting on the side.

The only thing that's a huge variable in this is the method by which I achieve this goal. That's the issue, and that's where I'm kind of freaking out. I want to make sure I am doing everything I can to be able to achieve my dream, since I know what it is so early on in my college career.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

The dream is there and strong - I want to eventually have a private practice, along with some sort of consulting on the side.

The only thing that's a huge variable in this is the method by which I achieve this goal. That's the issue, and that's where I'm kind of freaking out. I want to make sure I am doing everything I can to be able to achieve my dream, since I know what it is so early on in my college career.

Well, it sounds like you're taking steps in the right direction. Definitely get involved with research so that you can begin narrowing your clinical and research interests (and secure supervisors who will be able to write strong and well-informed letters of recommendation). Study for and do well on the GRE and possibly the subject test, if required. Raise your GPA as much as possible. Present research posters at national conferences. Speak with undergrad faculty mentors about which programs might present a good match for you (while taking the advice with a grain of salt, depending upon how informed the mentor is).

 

[Psycholog]

Well, it sounds like you're taking steps in the right direction. Definitely get involved with research so that you can begin narrowing your clinical and research interests (and secure supervisors who will be able to write strong and well-informed letters of recommendation). Study for and do well on the GRE and possibly the subject test, if required. Raise your GPA as much as possible. Present research posters at national conferences. Speak with undergrad faculty mentors about which programs might present a good match for you (while taking the advice with a grain of salt, depending upon how informed the mentor is).

Thanks! Trying to do all that - although how do I go about this whole poster thing? It's something new that I haven't heard of, and yet I see people talking about them all the time on these forums.

 

[Psycholog]

consider this:

what you're doing in your research lab is most likely grunt work. . . running subjects, scoring things, data entry, rudimentary stats. the fun part of research, to me, is ideas. . . understanding how things work, coming up with hypotheses, and testing hypotheses. in therapy or assessment, as a clinician, you are testing hypotheses and trying to understand how things work. To say you don't like research is to say you don't like psychology, in my opinion.

You're right - the theoretical aspects of both are similar. What research requires, however, is more systematic than what therapy or assessment requires. You need to write long technical papers, get approval from the IRB, use all of the correct formatting, ect. Also, it deals less with people and more with ideas. What I mean is that therapy allows you to interact with people in a more free way, applying ideas that have been developed through research. Research, on the other hand, is less person-oriented and more data/results focused. The only interaction you get is with your fellow researchers and the process of running participants.

So although they're similar theoretically, the process of actually doing each is quite different.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

What research requires, however, is more systematic than what therapy or assessment requires. You need to write long technical papers, get approval from the IRB, use all of the correct formatting, ect. Also, it deals less with people and more with ideas. What I mean is that therapy allows you to interact with people in a more free way, applying ideas that have been developed through research. Research, on the other hand, is less person-oriented and more data/results focused. The only interaction you get is with your fellow researchers and the process of running participants.

So although they're similar theoretically, the process of actually doing each is quite different.

You need to interview a therapist, stat. Especially one who works in a community mental health center or other agency. That'll give you an idea of what a therapist does--you'll be surprised how voluminious amounts of paperwork, agency pressure to produce, and client resistance/illness/attendance/etc. prevents your average therapist from "interacting with people in a free way." I love how so many people think therapy is just sitting and talking to people all day (or actually making big changes in their lives)--if it were, we wouldn't have the enormous burnout that we have in this field. Not that it can't have its up side, but the dichotomy between people and writing/grunt work is not as far as you would think.

 

[erg923]

You're right - the theoretical aspects of both are similar. What research requires, however, is more systematic than what therapy or assessment requires. You need to write long technical papers, get approval from the IRB, use all of the correct formatting, ect. Also, it deals less with people and more with ideas. What I mean is that therapy allows you to interact with people in a more free way, applying ideas that have been developed through research. Research, on the other hand, is less person-oriented and more data/results focused. The only interaction you get is with your fellow researchers and the process of running participants.

So although they're similar theoretically, the process of actually doing each is quite different.

In addition to interviewing a therapist (or a psychologist with a 100% clinical position) as suggested above, you also might want to talk to a clinical ph.d outside whatever university you attend, as you have a pretty distorted view of research, and of what the modal psychologist who is active in reserach actually does. Think "scientist-practitioner", not scientist only. The vast majority of ph.ds who do research, do it in the context of their clinical work. I think you are only thinking of what a psychology professor at "State U" does. This is not the average ph.d psycholgist. That represents about 10% of the country's clincial ph.ds.

 

[NYRangers1]

What aspect of "psychology" are you most passionate about? If I'm understanding what you've said so far, it sounds like you are most interested in therapeutic side than research. That is great, and it's great that you are passionate about it, and are reaching out and using resources such as this to narrow your focus. From what I've read about your interests, you don't need a Phd or PsyD to do what you want (private practice and consulting). A masters in social work, counseling, mental health counseling, etc would allow you to do exactly what you want as well as pursue a license. What's great is that you can get as master's practice for a few years and if you feel like you'd like to go back to school for a doctorate, you can.

Forget about what "pays more" because that is not what should drive your decision in this field. Follow up with erg923 and Psychadelic2012 advice. Speak to professionals in the field and get a feel for it.

 

[psybee]

The dream is there and strong - I want to eventually have a private practice, along with some sort of consulting on the side.

The only thing that's a huge variable in this is the method by which I achieve this goal. That's the issue, and that's where I'm kind of freaking out. I want to make sure I am doing everything I can to be able to achieve my dream, since I know what it is so early on in my college career.

You can have your dream via a MSW, MFT, PhD (in clinical or counseling) or PsyD. I strongly encourage you to try to separate the very seductive lure of becoming a Dr. from how to best achieve your goals. If private practice is your main thing, how lucrative that practice is is up to you in many ways. it's true masters level clinicians get reimbursed from insurance companies at lower levels than doctoral level clinicians, but i you take insurance, how much insurance funded pts make up your practice, how many you see, if yo want to do therapy or assessment (that is a Dr. thing), and how you will develop your business are all very variable, and there are master's level clinicians that make just as good a living and Dr.s, depending. Private practice is different than working in a setting like a hospital, VA, or community mental; health clinic, and reimbursement and opportunities for administrative leadership can vary depending on your training. Also, Counseling PhD's are PhDs--all the ones I know are no-joke researchers. It is an amazing field but don't conflate the word counseling with somehow being more talk-therapy oriented than Clinical PhDs.

I think that some of us are asking you to challenge the dream because you sort of have to believe "i can do it, i can do anything!" to want to work in mental health and to apply to doctoral programs. and i'm sure you can but if you do not like research will you want to at year 2, 3, 4. it is not a minor thing to force yourself to do research when you do not want to. you will likely be working on your PI's study, and they want you to be as passionate about research as they are, because they love it and it means a lot to their career. your colleagues who are research oriented will not love working with someone who couldn't care less about research, because your productivity impacts them and the tenor of the lab. and it will be torture for you.

this is a serious issue--if you are unhappy at a job you can quit. even if you are unhappy at a college you can switch majors or schools. but once you are in making changes is very tough, and the financial investment can be so huge, you really want to be a critical as you can now about your choices.

also, when applying for internships, broadly, there are somewhat different expectations for phd vs psyd applicants. while there are psyd applicants that definitely have publications and presentations, it's not that common and not expected. you are more expected to have rich and thoughtful clinical and assessment training and be able to communicate about your research and ebt's you practice in a knowledgeable way. it is a practitioner-scholar oriented degree and real psyd's have an interest and appreciation for science, even if they are not as interested in producing it (although many do in a clinical context).

but a phd that applies to internship with little or no research productivity does not look amazing, and with the state of internship right now (please please read up on the internship crisis before applying anywhere), it's something to bear in mind. to you, getting into these uber competitive doctoral programs may seem like the holy grail, but applying to internship is even more stressful, you need internship to get a doctorate, and you are not setting yourself up that well w/o any pubs coming from a phd program. but once again, if you want to practice privately and don't want to do research or assessment, you may really want to think 2x about a MSW.

 

[NYRangers1]

You can have your dream via a MSW, MFT, PhD (in clinical or counseling) or PsyD. I strongly encourage you to try to separate the very seductive lure of becoming a Dr. from how to best achieve your goals. If private practice is your main thing, how lucrative that practice is is up to you in many ways. it's true masters level clinicians get reimbursed from insurance companies at lower levels than doctoral level clinicians, but i you take insurance, how much insurance funded pts make up your practice, how many you see, if yo want to do therapy or assessment (that is a Dr. thing), and how you will develop your business are all very variable, and there are master's level clinicians that make just as good a living and Dr.s, depending. Private practice is different than working in a setting like a hospital, VA, or community mental; health clinic, and reimbursement and opportunities for administrative leadership can vary depending on your training. Also, Counseling PhD's are PhDs--all the ones I know are no-joke researchers. It is an amazing field but don't conflate the word counseling with somehow being more talk-therapy oriented than Clinical PhDs.

I think that some of us are asking you to challenge the dream because you sort of have to believe "i can do it, i can do anything!" to want to work in mental health and to apply to doctoral programs. and i'm sure you can but if you do not like research will you want to at year 2, 3, 4. it is not a minor thing to force yourself to do research when you do not want to. you will likely be working on your PI's study, and they want you to be as passionate about research as they are, because they love it and it means a lot to their career. your colleagues who are research oriented will not love working with someone who couldn't care less about research, because your productivity impacts them and the tenor of the lab. and it will be torture for you.

this is a serious issue--if you are unhappy at a job you can quit. even if you are unhappy at a college you can switch majors or schools. but once you are in making changes is very tough, and the financial investment can be so huge, you really want to be a critical as you can now about your choices.

also, when applying for internships, broadly, there are somewhat different expectations for phd vs psyd applicants. while there are psyd applicants that definitely have publications and presentations, it's not that common and not expected. you are more expected to have rich and thoughtful clinical and assessment training and be able to communicate about your research and ebt's you practice in a knowledgeable way. it is a practitioner-scholar oriented degree and real psyd's have an interest and appreciation for science, even if they are not as interested in producing it (although many do in a clinical context).

but a phd that applies to internship with little or no research productivity does not look amazing, and with the state of internship right now (please please read up on the internship crisis before applying anywhere), it's something to bear in mind. to you, getting into these uber competitive doctoral programs may seem like the holy grail, but applying to internship is even more stressful, you need internship to get a doctorate, and you are not setting yourself up that well w/o any pubs coming from a phd program. but once again, if you want to practice privately and don't want to do research or assessment, you may really want to think 2x about a MSW.

well said.

 

[ClinicalABA]

, I think of doing a PhD as a slight inconvenience that would lead to a better future.

I think a lot of people on this forum (particularly those currently applying for internship) would argue that doing the Ph.D. (or a Psy.D., for that matter) is much more than a "slight inconvenience." It can take 6-10 years until licensure, during which time you will have be focusing much of your physical and mental energy on just getting stuff done. If things don't change on the supply side of the equation, completing your training (e.g. internship) and getting one of the high paying jobs will take some good luck as well as hard work. In the meantime, it is likely that a lot of other things in your life (starting a family, settling into an area you want to live, buying a house, starting saving for retirement) will be put on hold. It all can be hugely inconvenient, even if you love what your doing. You will have to spend a great deal of time, particularly in the first few years, slogging through stats and research design classes, with a lot homework and memorization type studying (I enjoyed stats, did well, and took more classes as electives, but still found the work involved to be a major, inconvenient, pain in the butt!). You'll be calculating your first SEM way before you see your first client! It all worked out in the end for me and most of my cohort, but there are people who struggle mightily and don't make it. Seriously- it's way more than a "little inconvenience."

 

[AcronymAllergy]

In addition to interviewing a therapist (or a psychologist with a 100% clinical position) as suggested above, you also might want to talk to a clinical ph.d outside whatever university you attend, as you have a pretty distorted view of research, and of what the modal psychologist who is active in reserach actually does. Think "scientist-practitioner", not scientist only. The vast majority of ph.ds who do research, do it in the context of their clinical work. I think you are only thinking of what a psychology professor at "State U" does. This is not the average ph.d psycholgist. That represents about 10% of the country's clincial ph.ds.

This and what Psychadelic mentioned are very, very true. Research and clinical work are much more similar than it seems you think them to be. And, as Psychadelic mentioned, even in clinical work, you'll likely spend nearly as much time completing client-related administrative duties (e.g., charting notes/reports, billing, reviewing treatment materials and relevant research) as you do in session and face-to-face with the clients themselves. Plus, like erg pointed out, much research (perhaps the majority) occurs in the course of clinical work (think "two birds with one stone"). Even if you aren't publishing this data, you need to be using these principles to chart the progress of your clients and the effectiveness/accuracy of your conceptualizations.

In my opinion, quite honestly, if you aren't approaching assessment and therapy with clients with a "research-oriented" mindset firmly based in theory and hypothesis generation/testing (as JonSnow mentioned), you're very possibly doing it wrong. At the very least, doing so as a doctoral-level practitioner is essentially eschewing one of the unique strengths we can bring to the process.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Some people in private practice can actively avoid participating in current research (read, creating, etc), though they really should still have a foundation in research...especially if they are practicing at the doctoral level. Research is a cornerstone of doctoral-level practice, so if that isnt' something that interests you, then a more therapy-focused masters is probably the better choice.

 

[eudaimonPsyD]

I think what everyone else has said on here has been spot on so far. If you are not interested in serious time and energy being put into research, then perhaps a doctoral program is not the route to go at this time. Regardless if the program is PhD or PsyD, you will have to complete a dissertation, and that dissertation will most likely be empirically-based and original (or a continuation of previous research, but with your own contribution to that particular area). If you are looking into a PsyD program that doesn't require a dissertation or research (like completing a "doctoral project") it's probably best to steer very far away from those schools anyways.