Is it really worthy of all this effort?

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If you are going to work for the VA, a CMHC, or similar type job which pays $ 50 – 75 thousand / year, I don’t think it is worth it (at least financially). Your job could be intrinsically rewarding, but that doesn’t pay the bills. If you decide you are going to continue to work hard and be in the top 5% after graduate school, then it is worth it. I don’t see any reason why a psychologist who is self employed cannot make $100 – 175 / year. Even with crappy reimbursement, the salary potential is available. Unfortunately, far too many psychologists feel like they have paid their dues in school, and have strong feelings of entitlement. They find themselves underemployed, underpaid, and unhappy. Misery loves miserable company. Consequently, psychologists join together in subgroups and complain to no end about the toxic system they find themselves in. I think some of it has to do with psychologists wanting to be treated like doctors, but often times do not want to work like doctors (when I say work like doctors I am not referring to 40 hour a week physicians like radiologists, psychiatrists, etc, I am thinking more along the lines of the full throttle OB/GYN seeing 50 patients / day, on call, and working long hours).

Listed below is something I read in the optometry forum. I couldn’t agree more with this guy, and think it is very relevant and similar to the current state of psychology.


my rant on the current state of optometry...
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After attending a meeting/dinner last evening honoring the many achievements of our school nurses and their efforts to help elementary school children in our county I quite accidentally stumbled upon this forum. After reading several threads and posting a few responses I thought long and hard about many of my colleagues from last evenings dinner and the state of the profession. I must say I was quite disappointed with the profession I have chosen.

Let me start by saying, I have been in practice for a little more than six years since finishing my residency. I worked as an associate in a very successful multi-doctor/multi office practice for 2 years and then bought out the senior partner 3.5 years ago. I have a partner and we have two full time Ods wokring for us and ophthalmology that leases space in one of our offices 1.5 days a week. Optometry has been very good to me.

I could have sold out to corporate optometry to spin dials, have no control over my career, and also leave myself little upward mobility. However, I knew I wanted to call my own shots, I believed there were great opportunities, and I refused to settle for less. I worked my ass off my first year out of school, learned how to run a business from a wise man, and was able to make about $87,000 that year. I knew I had to work much smarter if I ever really wanted to make any money. I wrote a major grant proposal to our county to secure funding for preschool children. It wasnt much(about $80,000 over three years) but it was a great opportunity to do a good service, network, and get a little income while I was out of the office building my practice. I joined the serive clubs, volunteered for everything and met every MD, DC, DDS, etc. It wasnt long before I had a significant volume of patients to really start building a practice. I waited for a few years for the new cars and big house and I sought ownership in our office buildings. I marketed heavily from within, and heavily embraced the medical model. I always made sure(and still do) patients know what I can do, I am on call on the weekends for emergencies, and have developed a wonderful relationship with several local opthamologists. I would mark out an occasional morning to go see patients with a local retina guy, glaucoma specialist, or corneal specialist. I proved to them I was competent and made it very clear that I expected each of my patients back after their surgeries, etc.

I have always made sure I looked professional(not dockers with a wrinkled collared shirt) even when I couldnt afford nice clothes. I always iron my shirts, comb my hair, try to look successful, and I am sure to hire good staff. Patients notice and appreciate this. They do not want to see a doctor that looks like he/she pushes a shopping cart around town after hours. I have embraced technology; we bought an OCT, 8 Mega pixel digital cameras for our offices, fancy phoropters, etc and I am sure to take every opportunity to explain as much as I can to each patient. And you know what? Patients come back again and again and they send everyone they know to me!

The point to all of this is not to pat myself on the back, but to try and let everyone out there know that it is possible to be successful in optometry. Listen to patients, and refuse to be average. Stop whining there is no money in optometry.. I believe there is plenty of money but very few MONEY MAKERS in optometry. Never feel inferior to OMDs...there are as many if not more bad surgeons out there. You are capable of treating 95% of every eye patient that exists.

I say all these things as I prepare to catch a flight tomorrow to Las Vegas. I will see many colleagues who will blame everyone but themselves for thier failure to earn a good living in optometry. Thankfully, I will also see a few colleagues that believe as I do- that there is a good career to be had in optometry.
 
Yes, yes...the sky is falling. I hear this all the time. If you want some facts, check out the APA's latest doctoral employment survey:
http://research.apa.org/des03.html#status

"Sixty-four percent of the new doctorates were employed full time, about 8% were employed part time, 22% were working on postdoctorates, and just over 5% were unemployed—half of whom were seeking employment, while half were not seeking employment."

According to these numbers, approximately 2.5% of new doctorates are looking for employment and unable to find it. That is hardly a large number. According to the latest salary survey on the APA website, the mean income of a doctoral psychologist is $75k. That number seems more like 80-90K when you look at private practice. While we might not be rolling in it, we are hardly starving. If you have 100+k in loans, that might be a different story.

As for getting a master's degree, I used to work with a psychologist, psychiatrist and an MSW as an undergrad. I spoke to all about my career path. The psychologist and the psychiatrist both warned me about the master's level practitioners and decreasing pay. However, the MSW pointed out that he and the psychologist did the same job, but she made more. He was having trouble putting food on the table for his family with 30k. The psychologist might not have been jetsetting, but she was comfortable. As a psychologist, you can also shift your time to other sources that make more if you are suffering financially (i.e testing, psych evals for surgery,etc.). Master's level providers can't really do this.
 
I've seen many people refer to testing as a relatively lucrative area. To what kinds of tests are they referring?
 
Hain Adam - I agree with everything that you posted. I am halfway through a clinical program and have known all along that I will have an uphill battle to secure a job, to wipe out my student loan, and to find some stability. I think the only way of 'making it' is by doing the kinds of things that PsychevalIII is pointing to. Even so, I believe that many graduates DO work quite hard to secure their futures after school. It is not as if we are competing with people that just want a job handed to them... by their very nature, these are intelligent, perfectionistic, and tireless servants of psychology. That means I may have to work even HARDER than I am now, in the throws of graduate school. Honestly, I don't know if my body can take these long hours anymore, but I plan to make things easier on myself when I get out by taking at least one business course.

Is it worth it? Well, I guess that depends on how bad you want it and what you're willing to go through. It looks like you have the right perspective going in.
 
I will only throw out that while you can make some descent money through neuropsyc testing, it is extremely tiring both physically and psychologically. I don't know of many people who are able to do it full time.

In terms of quoting APA... they do have a biased perspective and an agenda to push - keep that in mind while assessing validity.
 
Logic Prevails said:
Hain Adam - I agree with everything that you posted. I am halfway through a clinical program and have known all along that I will have an uphill battle to secure a job, to wipe out my student loan, and to find some stability. I think the only way of 'making it' is by doing the kinds of things that PsychevalIII is pointing to. Even so, I believe that many graduates DO work quite hard to secure their futures after school. It is not as if we are competing with people that just want a job handed to them... by their very nature, these are intelligent, perfectionistic, and tireless servants of psychology. That means I may have to work even HARDER than I am now, in the throws of graduate school. Honestly, I don't know if my body can take these long hours anymore, but I plan to make things easier on myself when I get out by taking at least one business course.

Is it worth it? Well, I guess that depends on how bad you want it and what you're willing to go through. It looks like you have the right perspective going in.
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Why do such intelligent, perfectionistic, and tireless individuals make such low incomes?
 
Jon Snow said:
Nearly any career worth anything is competitive and challenging (at least depending on one's skillset).

I like that the bar for entry is high. I wish it was higher.

I am also not particularly daunted by the outstanding nature of our colleagues as an impediment to future success. Psychology has soft edges that allow gobs of the intellectually disinclined to achieve doctorates and practice. Don't be intimidated. This field is comparatively a breeze in terms of competition.
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If it's not too revealing, what are the component pieces (e.g., private practice, teaching, consultation, etc.) of your career in psychology and what percentage of each makes up your salary? Oh, and what the hell . . . How much do you earn?
 
Jon Snow said:
That hasn't been my experience.
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Of course it hasn't. So what has been your experience, since you've just clarified that you don't do full time assessment work yourself?

Every psychologist that I have talked to expressed that they generally did full time assessment work after grad school to pay the bills but burnt out after a year or so. Most suggest that if you're doing assessment work, you need to mix it up with something else (research, therapy etc.), otherwise it will test your long term sanity.

Man, there is so much cognitive dissonance on these forums I can barely stand it. People can't even agree on the earning potential for new Psychologists. Some people say it is dire, others imply that it is the most prosperous and lucrative field an individual could hope to be in. If you are going to say either, please for the love of god, back it up with some substance to support your opinion or at least state where your thoughts are coming from.
 
Jon Snow said:
The mean income overall in a field full of large numbers of professional school grads is 75K. That's a huge section of the field that aren't particularly competitive. Further, the average income in some specialties is far above 75k. If you go to graduate school in a way that is supported, you won't have any debt. If you play your cards well, you'll have at least a 6 figure income. What's the problem?
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I will provide some empirical evidence for Jon's position:
I am 2 years out of post doc; I make 6 figures (I am a neuropsych, but also do some therapy), my grad school debt was less than 10K (all paid up as of 6 months ago); and I am quite satisfied and comfortable with my career.
 
I think if you're committed and learn a little bit about the business of psychotherapy (or assessment, if that's your boat), either on their own or through joining a group practice or the like, you can make a decent income in this area.

But with the increase in competition in the past decade, I'd definitely say most new therapists are going to find it trying at times. The key is to be persistent, be very clear on what your career goals are as soon as you can, and work hard to achieve those goals, preferably with other colleagues.

I've seen a lot of burnout from lone therapists trying to do it all on their own. I think new therapists have a slightly easier time, in general, if they do it with other colleagues, at least to get started.

John
 
Jon Snow said:
The mean income overall in a field full of large numbers of professional school grads is 75K. That's a huge section of the field that aren't particularly competitive.
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For the love of god Jon, where are you getting this number? From what I've seen, both in biased APA surveys and from looking at salaries of different job postings, the new graduate is likely to expect around 50-60K.

http://research.apa.org/01salary/table5.pdf

Dr.JT - I am glad that you've had an excellent experience, but I don't think you can use inductive reasoning to guess the state of the field. The majority of graduates will not have graduated from a fully funded "boulder-type" program and the majority of graduates will not have a neuropsyc specialty, which would arguably put you in a much better position.

I don't disagree that you can make money and eventually succeed. I just don't want "would be applicants" thinking the road is goind to be all sugarplums and fairies when they get out.
 
I find myself both comforted and scared after reading this thread. Glad my interest is in Neuropsych though. Sounds like the bottom line is that is you work hard, you can make a good living. Not too original I know, but I am not entering this field b/c I want to own a yatch. No sugarplums, got it! What's wrong with around 75k any way? If want want to make really big bucks learn to hit a fast ball.:laugh:
 
Logic Prevails said:
Dr.JT - I am glad that you've had an excellent experience, but I don't think you can use inductive reasoning to guess the state of the field. The majority of graduates will not have graduated from a fully funded "boulder-type" program and the majority of graduates will not have a neuropsyc specialty, which would arguably put you in a much better position.

I don't disagree that you can make money and eventually succeed. I just don't want "would be applicants" thinking the road is goind to be all sugarplums and fairies when they get out.
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This is exactly why Jon, as well as myself, regularly warns people of the non boulder path. Unfortunately those warnings are often met with hostility.

Also, many of my colleagues in health psych and rehab psych also make comparable income to myself. This is why I always tell students to develop specialized skills, both research and clinical, and if you only want to be a therapist, become a social worker.
 
Dr.JT said:
This is why I always tell students to develop specialized skills, both research and clinical, and if you only want to be a therapist, become a social worker.
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This is the best advice I've heard in awhile 😀
 
I think the days of hanging a shingle and having that be your sole income are gone. Life-long jobs in academia I think are much the same....you can still do it, but it isn't the norm. The world of psychology seems to be much more about applying your skills in multiple arenas.

My path isn't necessarily 'traditional', but I figured I'd post it and expand the possible options. I am going to do corp consulting and corporate mediation, which is a growing area for clinical docs who want to do something outside of the box. It isn't the easiest field to get in, but it is a great place to make biz $$ (I have a standing offer, which makes my jump much more palatable) This will allow me to build and carry a small patient caseload, without having to worry about paying the bills solely through private practice.

Teaching is an option (i'm only going to look for adjunct, because academia is a TOUGH place to break into from what I've seen), as is research (hit and miss funding-wise) and writing (you might need to shop stuff around).

There are a TON of things you can do with your education, but it is what you make of it. I am going back into business, which isn't for everyone, but if you can function in that arena, you can make a very nice living, and still have time for life. Consider branching out into business, it pays a hell of a lot better than a lot of the traditional routes of clinical psychologists. In an ideal world, i'd do a bit of everything (consulting a few days a month, teach a class or two a semester, write a book, and carry a few patients), but rarely do things work out quite that well. 😆

-t
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Teaching is an option (i'm only going to look for adjunct, because academia is a TOUGH place to break into from what I've seen), as is research (hit and miss funding-wise) and writing (you might need to shop stuff around).
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What do you mean by academia being tough place to break into?
 
Dr.JT said:
This is exactly why Jon, as well as myself, regularly warns people of the non boulder path. Unfortunately those warnings are often met with hostility.

Also, many of my colleagues in health psych and rehab psych also make comparable income to myself. This is why I always tell students to develop specialized skills, both research and clinical, and if you only want to be a therapist, become a social worker.
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But won't you also be limiting your job opportunities if you specialize in a single area?
 
Hain Adam said:
But won't you also be limiting your job opportunities if you specialize in a single area?
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No. These specializations are within clinical psychology. I can do anything a generalist clinical psychologist can do, and several things they are not qualified to do. How would i be limited? Maybe I am not as competitive for a 40K a year job in a community mental health center. Believe me, I am not losing sleep over it.
 
Dr.JT said:
No. These specializations are within clinical psychology. I can do anything a generalist clinical psychologist can do, and several things they are not qualified to do. How would i be limited? Maybe I am not as competitive for a 40K a year job in a community mental health center. Believe me, I am not losing sleep over it.
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can you tell more about those specializations?
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
There are a TON of things you can do with your education, but it is what you make of it. I am going back into business, which isn't for everyone, but if you can function in that arena, you can make a very nice living, and still have time for life. Consider branching out into business, it pays a hell of a lot better than a lot of the traditional routes of clinical psychologists. In an ideal world, i'd do a bit of everything (consulting a few days a month, teach a class or two a semester, write a book, and carry a few patients), but rarely do things work out quite that well. 😆

-t
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That's exactly what I would like to do, ideally. I'm not sure how I would do with the business stuff, although I understand that it's a good way to make a good living. But I definitely want to do some teaching, write a book (or more), carry a small caseload, etc. A bit of consulting could be good too, and some assessment - I find assessment interesting. I think any one thing would get old fast if it were all that I did. Maybe there will be seasons for each, with some overlap.

$75,000 sounds pretty nice to me. I've worked full-time with my bachelor's degree at various jobs, sometimes multiple part-time jobs that add up to overtime but don't get paid as such, of course. I've been a social services director for a nursing home, I've been a CNA, I've worked in residential treatment, and preschools, and I've done speech therapy (as an aide) in the public schools. My latest social security statement shows my highest annual income never quite reaching $8000. I'm still paying $200/month on undergrad student loans (consolidated with my husband's, so not eligible for deferment, etc.). Fortunately he does a little better with a master's degree as a rehab counselor (combined income went over $40,000 last year - both of us working full-time +).

Funded graduate programs unfortunately aren't a possibility for everyone. I wish it were. Even with sky high tuition for my master's program (I'll finish up as an LPC), it's got to be an improvement, right? I want to go on from there, hopefully with funding. And hopefully with enough time left over to use my master's degree and work on the side - would be great if that could count as practicum too. But I'm getting ahead of myself. I hope it will be worth it, and I hope I can get all my student loans paid off some day before I die. I'm a little behind on all this though, since I was out of school for 13 years in between. It's got to be an improvement from where I've been. But I'm sure that anyone whose true goal is to make money would have chosen another field than this one.
 
Hain Adam said:
can you tell more about those specializations?
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they pretty much fall under the heading of behavioral medicine; working with individuals with disabilities and medical conditions.
 
Just wondering, but do people go into consulting because they like it, or because it's lucrative? I met with a few consulting companies today at a job fair, and it all just seemed a little scary to me.
 
Hain Adam said:
What do you mean by academia being tough place to break into?
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It seems like many places aren't offering a tenure track, instead it is mostly associate and adjunct work. I'm not averse to that (for what i'm looking for), but for someone who wants to use that as a primary source of income....it doesn't seem to offer the kind of stability i'd want in something I invested a lot of time and effort.
 
Jon Snow said:
No. Say you go to an unfunded program. . . , a professional school. . . average debt is 68K. Let's say it is all federal, which means a 6.8% interest rate. . . On a 30 year payback plan, that's about $500.00 a month (which means your actual outlay btw for the 68K loan is 160K or so). Throw on the $200 a month you are already paying and that's $700 bucks a month. Let's then say, after all that school (which is lost income, btw) you make the average salary for a clinical psychologist (60K). After paying monthly loans, your effective annual salary is 46K. That's only $2400 a month take home after taxes ($28,000 a year). You are much better off doing something else.
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Jon, I seriously wish you would do a nationwide university tour to visit with 4th year undergrads. Unfortunately, many people (including myself) don't figure this out until they are 2nd or 3rd year in. You work so hard with all of those applications that you're just happy to get accepted to a school with a good reputation. They fully fund you for the first year, neglecting to tell you that from here on in, you're pretty much on your own.
 
Rapunzel said:
That's exactly what I would like to do, ideally. I'm not sure how I would do with the business stuff, although I understand that it's a good way to make a good living. But I definitely want to do some teaching, write a book (or more), carry a small caseload, etc. A bit of consulting could be good too, and some assessment - I find assessment interesting. I think any one thing would get old fast if it were all that I did. Maybe there will be seasons for each, with some overlap.

$75,000 sounds pretty nice to me.
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Consulting is a very generic term that can apply to a bunch of different areas; it all depends what you want to do. The specific type of consulting I want to do touches in a few different areas. The nice thing is that when you network, you can gain access to high-level people and have work land in your lap without even looking for it. These are purely my opinions, so make sure to do your own regional research.

Corp Mediation:There is a growing need for people to step in and mediate between an employee and the company. There has been a recent push to get an accredidation for something like this, and there are a few things out there....and it has come down to attorneys (who would otherwise get the work) and mostly doctoral level clinicians. There is no degree requirement, but it just looks better. Now that they are trying to do an accredidation process, it is another hoop to jump through. I know someone doing it now, and they are on a purely referal basis. It is a nice way to get chunks of change, and make some great biz contacts. This is actually my main reason for wanting to do it. I am planning on some synergy between my biz endeavors, and gaining exposure in larger companies, and being able to offer them additional consulting services.

Biz Consulting I have found a need in a few sub-sectors of some of the industries i use to work in, and I'll be going back and offering expanded consulting services. This is more based on my biz and I/O background, but my training plays a part. This is much more a la carte type work (for me), but I am going to try to package it into a full-service firm, if I can recruit the right kind of people who have the clinical and biz experience to be successful in this arena.

As you can see, i'm not going to be the traditional clinician, but I'd like to work smarter instead of longer.

Rapunzel said:
$75,000 sounds pretty nice to me.
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The nice thing about the biz world is that you can charge biz world prices. Making 6 figures isn't that hard, but it definately involves working smarter AND harder. I'm planning on low 6 figures when I get out, and once I get my network back up and running, there will be built in residual income and retainers. I wouldn't call that typical, but if you are a non-traditional student and/or you have biz contacts...you can get a jump start on the consulting, and really put yourself in a nice position if you can build onto an existing network of contacts. Previous clients and client referalls can eventually be the majority of a consulting practice....you just need to do the work up front, continue to provide quality service, and then hire competent people who maintain that same quality. Easy, right?

As for consulting for enjoyment or money......I do it for both. I like what my degree will add to my present skill set, it is challenging, flexible, ...AND it pays. It is a nice change from traditional work, and you can get some excellent perks if you work it right. (Golf outtings, access to C-level people....who actually value your input, etc)

-t
 
Forget the money, man, this is a great gig. I mean maybe it is first year optimism, but I'm a few months in and completely thrilled that a) I actually got into a program and b) I'm doing what I love. Personally, I've always only wanted to go into a profession where I felt like I was making a difference in someone's life, and so far, I do actually feel that reward. So, sure, we could all be C.E.O's and give ourselves massive bonuses but is that what would drive us to do all the hard work, etc...?

Eternal optimist out.
 
Hain Adam said:
It seems like there is still more work to do such as a post doc work. More hard work and more hard work....Once you are done with that another big challenge starts.
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Ah, it seems you have discovered the nature of life....
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
It seems like many places aren't offering a tenure track, instead it is mostly associate and adjunct work. I'm not averse to that (for what i'm looking for), but for someone who wants to use that as a primary source of income....it doesn't seem to offer the kind of stability i'd want in something I invested a lot of time and effort.
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That's true but after you teach at a school for several years they are more likely to offer you a tenure position.
 
Alright, first things first...I quoted the salary figure...It is the overall income for clinical psychologists providing direct services as of 2003 (the most recent).
http://research.apa.org/03salary/homepage.html#dhs_clinical

Second, I don't believe that beating out all of your clinical colleagues is the key to success. The may hold true for neuropsych post-docs, but most subfields are open to individuals who want the training and are competent without fierce competition. I agree with John and Snow about funding and not getting a doctorate to work in a CMHC or counseling center. If you examine the APA figures, you will see huge disparities in salary based on the setting in which you work. Most of the private practice settings seem to make 80-100k over the career. The VA's seem to stay in the 70-80k range and the counseling centers and CMHC's stay in the 40-60k range.

I would also like to point out the difference between working smart and working hard. From everything I have heard, it is how you spend your time in grad school that matters. I'm not kiling myself to get a 4.0 in classes every semester. Where I do puch myself is in the research and clinical areas. I have decided that I enjoy neuropsych and health psych and am going about in any way possible to have a well rounded exposure to the fields as much as possible. To date, I have attended practica that have allowed me to administer full batteries of neuropsych tests, I am learning biofeedback in a research setting and will hopfefully find a clinical placement to use it for pain management. Thus by internship, I will have research and clinical experience in this part of the field to gain a placement. You can go through grad school on a generalist track, but then you have no way of differentiating yourself on the market. I know too many people who simply get caught up in the academic learning and fail to realize that you are also building a career. These skills are what employers are looking for and what I am trying to gain, acing classes and learning generalist therapy really qualifies me for very little, especially if I later on want to break into the lucrative specialty market. Also learn the ins and outs of procedure, many internship sites require a masters degree for billing purposes, so go to a program that allows you to obtain one. The field is not dying, it is changing. The era of freud and hanging out a therapy shingle are gone. Working in areas connected with neuroscience, rehab, education, etc are up and coming. Where you want to be will dictate your opinion of the field. This is the same difference in opinion you might get about medicine from doctors in different specialties.

Another factor, psychologists tend to work less hours than physicians. If we all averaged 50-60 hrs, that would push average private practice incomes in the same arena as most general physicans.
 
Jon Snow said:
No. Say you go to an unfunded program. . . , a professional school. . . average debt is 68K. Let's say it is all federal, which means a 6.8% interest rate. . . On a 30 year payback plan, that's about $500.00 a month (which means your actual outlay btw for the 68K loan is 160K or so). Throw on the $200 a month you are already paying and that's $700 bucks a month. Let's then say, after all that school (which is lost income, btw) you make the average salary for a clinical psychologist (60K). After paying monthly loans, your effective annual salary is 46K. That's only $2400 a month take home after taxes ($28,000 a year). You are much better off doing something else.
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Ask any financial analyst and they will tell you the same thing -- taking on debt for a wise investment -- such as one's education -- is not a bad thing, as long a you understand what it is you're getting for your money. The problem isn't taking on $X in debt, it's taking it on without understanding its repurcussions.

Unfortunately, the reality is that some people -- I'd hazard to guess, most people -- actually have to pay for their own education.

$5k/month before taxes, $3.5k/month after taxes is plenty for most people, with or without $500 or $700 in student loans. In most areas of the country, this is a good starting salary. And just because one has $500 or $700 in student loans doesn't reduce the overall future earning potential of the professional (they aren't going to be making $60k forever).

Professional programs are popular because the demand is there and the supply of the other type of program refuses to keep up with changing times. What was relevant 50 years ago may be less so today.

John
 
Yes, I doubt few professionals get into psychology for the money or financial reward. It's a way to make a living, but I suspect most practitioners get into it for a very simple reason -- to help others.

We all pay for education, whether it's done through taxation or more directly, the cost remains fixed. Most people value their education as being more than the simple sum of its parts, so yes, if you're looking at this as X + Y = Z, I'm sure you've done well. For many people, however, it's a little more complicated than, "Oh, I got a free ride through school, that's the way to go!"

I'm happy scholarships were available to you and you received them. However, it doesn't make the value proposition of paying for one's education and receiving $X salary any less valid or less valuable for those who choose that road. In fact, working in a job to pay it back may be more meaningful to some (for instance, it's a reminder every month of the things I have to be grateful for in my life).

And yes, sorry, for better or worse, in a democracy such as ours, if a lot of people want to do something, they do it. If one solution is reduce the number of psychologists, that will do nothing but give the clinical practice work to other professional fields (who have already made significant inroads into clinical practice in most states).

John
 
I disagree, Jon. The more professionals there are available to help others, the more it increases supply and lowers demand. For the consumer seeking mental health assistance, it generally means they get a greater selection of professionals (variety) at a lower cost. That's a good thing, right?

If the goal is to help people, then the profession is helping people better by making different types of education programs available to people in different stages of their life, career and education. Just as after-hours MBA programs help some businesspeople advance in their careers.

Once the door is opened, there's no turning back.

Thank goodness.

There's a lot of opportunity out there for professionals pursuing a degree in psychology. My main advice is to do so with your eyes wide opened and acknowledge your skills and deficits. Know that the profession has changed a great deal in the past 10-15 years, and will likely continue to undergo significant change in the years to come.

John
 
If there were a few large clinical studies that showed a particular type of degree or training resulted in better client/patient outcomes, I'd be onboard with limiting supply. But since few such studies exist or show such a relationship, it's an open question. And until it's answered, the free market provides an answer -- more supply, and more varied supply.

I don't see any strong movement to "adjust the situation." Most people seem happy with the increased choice. I see no problem with professional schools and after 35+ years, neither does the field (nor, for that matter, consumers).

The only issue is that a potential practitioner of the psychological arts should be aware of these concerns going into it, and aware of the debt they are incurring and how that may effect their future situation. Knowledge is power, and I hope by reading postings such as this, it helps inform some people's future choices.

John
 
John and Jon,
I realy don't know why this has to be an either/or discussion. Boarding, unfortunately, is irrelevant. I know that is hard to hear (for me too since I hold two). But, let's face it, with 90,000 licensed psychologist and 2700 ABPP members, if we relied on boarding, there would be no profession.

Professional schools, do put out more poorly trained clinicians, they don't however, put out less well-trained clinicians on a program by program basis. I think there could be some increased steps to limit growth in these times of limited internship and post-doctoral spots. I have seen some of the plans from the CoA and I think this could happen soon. I do not want to get rid of this model though.

I think in times where the APA is considering eliminating post-doc requirements, there need to be even more vigilance to training at the doctoral level.
 
I have a feeling that one way to make money is to prescribe medications. Last month I went to a medical psychologist's office (i.e., a prescribing psychologist) because I wanted to see how this prescribing thing worked. The doctor had 5 support staff (a nurse, a receptionist, a transcriptionist, and two psychometricians). In addition, he had 11 patients in his waiting room (he is not in a group practice) and a two month waiting list. In addition, he does AM rotations at a local hospital with inpatients. Prescribing has turned private practice, once moribund, into a vital profession in LA. It is also allowing psychology to re-gain a foothold in the hospitals. Recently, a bill passed allowing psychologists to prescribe in state facilities. It is also increasing funding to the LPA so it can further protect the profession (i.e., a restricted testing rule prohibitng LCSWs, M.D.s, etc. from using psychological tests). If all of you were wise, you would be active in passing a prescribing bill in your state!

BTW, Jon Snow is one of the most eloquent and cogent writers that I have ever seen. He really makes me proud to be a psychologist in training.
 
edieb said:
BTW, Jon Snow is one of the most eloquent and cogent writers that I have ever seen.
Click to expand...

Haha... 😍

only from time to time and when he actually puts forth the effort to give supporting evidence to his opinions.
 
Logic Prevails said:
Haha... 😍

only from time to time and when he actually puts forth the effort to give supporting evidence to his opinions.
Click to expand...

I am the person referred to earlier in this post from the optometry forum. The bottom line is: DONT BE AVERAGE. Leave that for everyone else. If you are looking for someone to roll out the red carpet for you, you better get used to Ramen noodles for dinner. It doesnt matter what profession you refer to, none of them guarantee you a certain salary or lifestyle. I know very skilled surgeons that struggle with monthly bills, and I know very wealthy construction workers.

Posner
 
One case from Vault.com:

Psychologist I, UCLA Hospital System, Westwood, CA (July 29, 2005)

Employee Workplace: "At UCLA the environment is one that values a medical degree above all others, including Ph.D.'s..."

Interview & Recruiting: I began as a predoctoral intern in clinical psychology and was matched with the UCLA child program..."

Salary & Compensation: "$54,200. This required difficult bargaining. I also receive 4 weeks of vacation time, typical in a..."

Business Outlook: "There is no business outlook. There is no sense that the clinical programs should be redesigned..."

Thus, I'm not so sure that the case is all rosy for medical psychologists who practice in hospitals (perhaps excluding LA/NM).

I think psychologists need to prevent others from encroaching on their territory, rather than encroaching on psychiatrist's territory (stop professional schools from churning out Psy.Ds in order to get rich off tuition with no concern with flooding the market, encourage mainstream research universities to have Psy.D. programs, and ban MSWs and LCSWs from doing therapy).
 
positivepsych said:
......ban MSWs and LCSWs from doing therapy).
Click to expand...

If it was only that easy. 😉

Unfortunately the MS level people are erroding traditional areas where doctorate level people would practice. I think the shift into business for the doctoral level person is adventagous, but many clinicials are averse to doing it. I am embracing it, because i'm not going to battle it out a for full-time practice at a fraction of what it use to be....between MS level people, decreasing reimbursement rate, etc....it's just not worth it to me.

-t
 
posner said:
I am the person referred to earlier in this post from the optometry forum. The bottom line is: DONT BE AVERAGE. Leave that for everyone else. If you are looking for someone to roll out the red carpet for you, you better get used to Ramen noodles for dinner. It doesnt matter what profession you refer to, none of them guarantee you a certain salary or lifestyle. I know very skilled surgeons that struggle with monthly bills, and I know very wealthy construction workers.

Posner
Click to expand...

Great advice.
 
Originally Posted by posner
I am the person referred to earlier in this post from the optometry forum. The bottom line is: DONT BE AVERAGE. Leave that for everyone else. If you are looking for someone to roll out the red carpet for you, you better get used to Ramen noodles for dinner. It doesnt matter what profession you refer to, none of them guarantee you a certain salary or lifestyle. I know very skilled surgeons that struggle with monthly bills, and I know very wealthy construction workers.

Posner
Click to expand...

This is a ridiculous statement because you're just pointing out extremes. Yes, there are actresses like Jennifer Anniston that make $20 million a film, and there are CEOs like that of Costco that make only $300,000 a year. We can talk about freak exceptions all we want. The reality is that most actresses are waitressing to make ends meet and the average CEO makes millions in stock options.

Yes, the individual does make a difference. If you're socially inept, you'll probably make a poor therapist. However, all things being equal, an MD psychiatrist will almost always outearn a PhD/PsyD psychologist. And there are certain professions that gaurantee a certain salary lifestyle as long as you get the training. If you can't find them, you're not looking hard enough.
 
positivepsych said:
This is a ridiculous statement because you're just pointing out extremes. Yes, there are actresses like Jennifer Anniston that make $20 million a film, and there are CEOs like that of Costco that make only $300,000 a year. We can talk about freak exceptions all we want. The reality is that most actresses are waitressing to make ends meet and the average CEO makes millions in stock options.

Yes, the individual does make a difference. If you're socially inept, you'll probably make a poor therapist. However, all things being equal, an MD psychiatrist will almost always outearn a PhD/PsyD psychologist. And there are certain professions that gaurantee a certain salary lifestyle as long as you get the training. If you can't find them, you're not looking hard enough.
Click to expand...

i agree
 
posner said:
I am the person referred to earlier in this post from the optometry forum. The bottom line is: DONT BE AVERAGE. Leave that for everyone else. If you are looking for someone to roll out the red carpet for you, you better get used to Ramen noodles for dinner. It doesnt matter what profession you refer to, none of them guarantee you a certain salary or lifestyle. I know very skilled surgeons that struggle with monthly bills, and I know very wealthy construction workers.

Posner
Click to expand...

This is the STUPIDEST post I've ever read. Maybe wealthy construction business OWNERS, but workers??? I live in an area with a many construction companies so I see them as patients and work comp ... starting salary $17/hr, max about $25/hr. Hardly wealthy.
For a surgeon (average salary $275k +) to struggle with monthly bills is simply a reflection of poor budgeting or excessive spending, not a failure of the profession.
Just curious, why would "very skilled surgeons" come out and tell you they're struggling to pay monthly bills. Being in the business, I cannot recall a time one of my many fellow physician friends confide he's having financial problems much less tell me what he makes. To simplify for you, I'm calling your post B.S.
 
Talk about overfocusing on the minutia...The point of the post is do not be average, do not base your life on what the 50th percentile can do, excell! Are you married to a construction worker or something?
 
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