Is It Worth It? Pursuing A Ph.D in Clinical Psychology?

[FallenMind]

I'm assuming most of you have experienced, or are experiencing, my current dilemma 😀 So I'd appreciate any honest feedback!

I am 23 years old and I'm currently finishing my M.S. in Clinical Mental Health Counseling (I graduate in December). I currently work as a Psychosocial Rehab Specialist and I have lots of opportunity to expand as a therapist and obtain my licensure after a year and a half internship. I've primarily worked with children and adults who have been diagnosed with mental health disorders. I've also worked as an addictions counselor for over a year.

My dilemma is that now that I'm finishing my Master's Degree, I've been really thinking about pursuing my Ph.D in Clinical Psychology. I'm really interested in nueropsychology and treatment of Schizophrenia. My question is: Is it worth it? I'm primarily concerned with taking out more loans for doctorate studies and also the invested time. Were any of you satisfied with the outcome after finishing your doctoral studies? Like I said, any feedback would be helpful 🙂

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[JeyRo]

It was worth it for me, but if I was to do it over again, I would studiously avoid the debt aspect, particularly since all of the things that make debt bad (e.g., rates, dischargeability, etc) have gotten worse since I graduated.

If you have to get into (on the high end) any more than, say, 60K of total debt to get through grad school, then I wouldn't say it's worth it, given that starting salaries for psychologists won't be much higher than that figure. If you go to a funded program you'll be OK, unfunded is a different matter.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

It was worth it for me, but if I was to do it over again, I would studiously avoid the debt aspect, particularly since all of the things that make debt bad (e.g., rates, dischargeability, etc) have gotten worse since I graduated.

If you have to get into (on the high end) any more than, say, 60K of total debt to get through grad school, then I wouldn't say it's worth it, given that starting salaries for psychologists won't be much higher than that figure. If you go to a funded program you'll be OK, unfunded is a different matter.

I'd second pretty much everything JeyRo said. I took on some debt myself despite attending a fully-funded program, and if I had it to do again, I'd prefer to have made it through with none. But beyond that, I have no regrets, and I very much enjoy what I do...the caveat being that I'm still on fellowship, so I haven't yet had to test out the waters in the job market.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

There was a recent-ish post called something like "would you do it again?" that is definitely worth looking up.

I would not do it again because I am mostly working as a therapist. Grad school was long and felt like torture. I could have been a therapist without going through that. I wasted essentially my entire 20's in school being unhappy. Of course, one thing that made it harder for me to make a good decision about whether to pursue a PhD was that going into grad school I was set on an academic career. However, once I got about halfway through I realized that I didn't want that life because our professors were miserable, angry people. I did not have a licensable master's so my options were limited. I completed the program and now work in PP. I like the day to day work, if not the financial situation.

Wait, reread your post and it look like you'd consider paying for your degree? I would say that isn't worth it at all. I graduated from a funded program 4 yrs ago and money is tight w/o debt.

Good luck,
Dr. E

Good luck,
Dr. E

 

[FallenMind]

It was worth it for me, but if I was to do it over again, I would studiously avoid the debt aspect, particularly since all of the things that make debt bad (e.g., rates, dischargeability, etc) have gotten worse since I graduated.

If you have to get into (on the high end) any more than, say, 60K of total debt to get through grad school, then I wouldn't say it's worth it, given that starting salaries for psychologists won't be much higher than that figure. If you go to a funded program you'll be OK, unfunded is a different matter.

I'm probably looking at another 35K in loans for the doctoral program here. I'm not sure if it's worth it because I still have loans for my Bachelor's and Master's. If I did go through with doctoral studies, I would be in about 85K in student loan debt (that's for everything, Bachelors, Masters and PhD). You provided great feedback though! I just still have no clue as to what I should do. I really want to get my PhD, it's really the loans that are holding me back from doing it.

 

[PHD12]

It's hard to recommend this field in general because salaries are incredibly varied and will depend on location, specialty area, business skills etc. Most people go to graduate school with the hope that they will at least live comfortably. There are many psychologists working multiple jobs and living paycheck to paycheck (more likely for those working in college counseling, group practices, and CMH centers). This is especially the case for those that are 1-5 years out of PhD programs. Others are living comfortably and have a nice income (VA psychologists, AMC psychologists). Board certified neuropsychologists seem to be doing well (based on salary surveys), but that is a very lengthy road.

Is it worth it if you want a generalist career or a psychotherapy career? No. If you land a fully funded program, are geographically flexible, get into an APA internship/postdoc and specialize, then I think you are more likely to do well in this field.

I probably won't be able to say answer whether it was worth it for a few years. 5 years post-degree I will have a better sense of my salary potential and opportunities. I graduated without debt (funded program) plus my partner has helped with extra living expenses so I have had it easier than most in that regard. Even with all that support, I've questioned whether it's been worth it many times. Like Dr. Eliza was saying, I've spent almost a decade of my life in training and felt like I gave up on many things to get this degree.

 

[PHD12]

I'm probably looking at another 35K in loans for the doctoral program here. .

How did you get to this calculation? This would only be possible in a fully funded program. I believe even in a fully funded program you are going to take out 20-30K if you don't have ANY family help.

 

[FallenMind]

How did you get to this calculation? This would only be possible in a fully funded program. I believe even in a fully funded program you are going to take out 20-30K if you don't have ANY family help.

This is just an estimate. I looked up at the entire course schedule (5 years) and the price per graduate credit. School is pretty cheap here compared to when I lived in the East Coast. This figure doesn't really include textbooks and gas going to the university, but again, it's just an estimate 🙂

EDIT: The program I'm looking at is 96 credits an d $217 per graduate credit, which comes out to $20,832. Doesn't include books for each semester.

 

[JeyRo]

I'm probably looking at another 35K in loans for the doctoral program here. I'm not sure if it's worth it because I still have loans for my Bachelor's and Master's. If I did go through with doctoral studies, I would be in about 85K in student loan debt (that's for everything, Bachelors, Masters and PhD). You provided great feedback though! I just still have no clue as to what I should do. I really want to get my PhD, it's really the loans that are holding me back from doing it.

85K sounds like a lot. Keep in mind that rates are much, much higher than they were for loans now than they were 10 years ago. No more deferring repayments until graduation. Nondischargeable. Et cetera. VA jobs are hard to get. We don't earn like psychiatrists. PP can be lucrative, but it's probably lucrative for only for a vanishingly small percentage of us, and you have to really understand how to operate like a businessperson in order to succeed in it (read Dr. Eliza and Psychiavilli's posts for two contrasting perspectives).

 

[FallenMind]

No more deferring repayments until graduation.

This sparked a question I forgot to ask: So if I went into a PhD program, I can't defer payments until after I finish my doctoral studies? I would essentially have to make student loan payments while doing my PhD?

EDIT: All my loans are federal by the way. No private loans.

 

[JeyRo]

This sparked a question I forgot to ask: So if I went into a PhD program, I can't defer payments until after I finish my doctoral studies? I would essentially have to make student loan payments while doing my PhD?

EDIT: All my loans are federal by the way. No private loans.

I *think* that's right. Anyways, basic message is lots of things have changed over the last 10 years. 35K of student loan debt amassed today is probably in most respects way more costly than 35K of student loan debt 10 years ago. Which is ironic because the dollar is worth so much less.

 

[edieb]

I'm assuming most of you have experienced, or are experiencing, my current dilemma 😀 So I'd appreciate any honest feedback!

I am 23 years old and I'm currently finishing my M.S. in Clinical Mental Health Counseling (I graduate in December). I currently work as a Psychosocial Rehab Specialist and I have lots of opportunity to expand as a therapist and obtain my licensure after a year and a half internship. I've primarily worked with children and adults who have been diagnosed with mental health disorders. I've also worked as an addictions counselor for over a year.

My dilemma is that now that I'm finishing my Master's Degree, I've been really thinking about pursuing my Ph.D in Clinical Psychology. I'm really interested in nueropsychology and treatment of Schizophrenia. My question is: Is it worth it? I'm primarily concerned with taking out more loans for doctorate studies and also the invested time. Were any of you satisfied with the outcome after finishing your doctoral studies? Like I said, any feedback would be helpful 🙂

You will do very little treatment of schizophrenia with a PhD in clinical psychology. There is cbt for schizophrenia but it's not widely done

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You will do very little treatment of schizophrenia with a PhD in clinical psychology. There is cbt for schizophrenia but it's not widely done

The same w. neuropsychology + schizophrenia....very rare in day to day practice.

 

[Goobernut]

I *think* that's right. Anyways, basic message is lots of things have changed over the last 10 years. 35K of student loan debt amassed today is probably in most respects way more costly than 35K of student loan debt 10 years ago. Which is ironic because the dollar is worth so much less.

Just to clarify, you can currently defer federal loan payments until graduation, they even allow a small grace period after graduation. For UG and graduate. I have one loan that is unsubsidized, so I chose to make interest only payments while in school. That was my choice though. I just set up the paperwork on the one tiny UG loan I have to defer payments while I'm in grad school. If latter years of the PhD are somehow not classified as "full time" then I guess your loan could go into repayment. I'd go to this site to double check your own situation though.

And because I always have to double check my anecdotal evidence 🙂 I read the rest of the website and found the below:
"You don’t have to begin repaying most federal student loans until after you leave college or drop below half-time enrollment. However, PLUS loans enter repayment once your loan is fully disbursed (paid out)."

So some loans you do have to pay back immediately and some you don't. I personally did not receive loans I was required to pay back before graduation.

 

[PHD12]

This is just an estimate. I looked up at the entire course schedule (5 years) and the price per graduate credit. School is pretty cheap here compared to when I lived in the East Coast. This figure doesn't really include textbooks and gas going to the university, but again, it's just an estimate 🙂

EDIT: The program I'm looking at is 96 credits an d $217 per graduate credit, which comes out to $20,832. Doesn't include books for each semester.

What about living expenses for 5 years? Most people are not going to be able to work while taking a full load of classes, research and unpaid clinical practicum. It is also very possible that it will take 6 years to graduate. You would have to factor in living expenses, books, cost of applying for internship (average of 3K), health insurance, visiting family while you are away etc. All of that is not going to come out to 35K with tuition. You are underestimating.

 

[edieb]

I'm assuming most of you have experienced, or are experiencing, my current dilemma 😀 So I'd appreciate any honest feedback!

I am 23 years old and I'm currently finishing my M.S. in Clinical Mental Health Counseling (I graduate in December). I currently work as a Psychosocial Rehab Specialist and I have lots of opportunity to expand as a therapist and obtain my licensure after a year and a half internship. I've primarily worked with children and adults who have been diagnosed with mental health disorders. I've also worked as an addictions counselor for over a year.

My dilemma is that now that I'm finishing my Master's Degree, I've been really thinking about pursuing my Ph.D in Clinical Psychology. I'm really interested in nueropsychology and treatment of Schizophrenia. My question is: Is it worth it? I'm primarily concerned with taking out more loans for doctorate studies and also the invested time. Were any of you satisfied with the outcome after finishing your doctoral studies? Like I said, any feedback would be helpful 🙂

When I was in grad school, I think i was a lot like you: I read about all these cognitive impairments in all these different disorders that could be elicited via psychometric testing and thought my day-to-day work would be to do this kind of thing. However, once you get beyond academia, you will see that the 99.999% of diagnostics is done with a quick interview. Furthermore, psychiatrists and other staff dont care about an exact diagnosis (anything with a hallucination is schizophrenia) because meds are so broad spectrum now. From my experience, a lot of other professions don't care what we have to offer. I remember when I was at the DoD and a nurse practitioner, who had an online degree, said I was "worthless" because I could not prescribe. I think it would be a good idea for you to get out in the real world and see if you really want the PhD. The workplace is much different than grad school

 

[FallenMind]

What about living expenses for 5 years? Most people are not going to be able to work while taking a full load of classes, research and unpaid clinical practicum. It is also very possible that it will take 6 years to graduate. You would have to factor in living expenses, books, cost of applying for internship (average of 3K), health insurance, visiting family while you are away etc. All of that is not going to come out to 35K with tuition. You are underestimating.

I'm actually fortunate enough to set my own schedule at work (I'm an independent contractor). I have my own caseload of clients that I see for sessions on a weekly basis. Working 16 hours a week is all I really need to get by with bills and living expenses (including health insurance). I just finished a 900 hour internship with full-time course work for my Master's, so I think it's completely possible. Also, I'm not going away anywhere. The university is 25 minutes away 🙂 So in my situation, I think the 30K is perfectly plausible. 🙂

EDIT: I know that just applying to one school isn't the smartest move. If I don't get in, I'm going to focus on my counseling license and apply for doctoral studies in the future.

 

[FallenMind]

When I was in grad school, I think i was a lot like you: I read about all these cognitive impairments in all these different disorders that could be elicited via psychometric testing and thought my day-to-day work would be to do this kind of thing. However, once you get beyond academia, you will see that the 99.999% of diagnostics is done with a quick interview. Furthermore, psychiatrists and other staff dont care about an exact diagnosis (anything with a hallucination is schizophrenia) because meds are so broad spectrum now. From my experience, a lot of other professions don't care what we have to offer. I remember when I was at the DoD and a nurse practitioner, who had an online degree, said I was "worthless" because I could not prescribe. I think it would be a good idea for you to get out in the real world and see if you really want the PhD. The workplace is much different than grad school

I completely agree!

Just for the record, I don't want people thinking I'm this young naive student who wishes to pursue a PhD in Clinical Psychology thinking that I'll ultimately be working in my dream field of nueropsychology. I know it doesn't work like that. 😎 And I do have experience in the clinical setting. I've worked in counseling for about three years. I've had to deal with diagnosis, assessment, individual therapy, billing procedures etc. I've worked under psychologists and have worked with a psychiatrist. I've seen what's beyond the text books.

My PhD question really lies in fulfillment in completing a doctorate program, if it came with a salary increase and more opportunities, and if you felt like the time invested was worth it? 😀

 

[PHD12]

My PhD question really lies in fulfillment in completing a doctorate program, if it came with a salary increase and more opportunities, and if you felt like the time invested was worth it? 😀

Good question, but impossible to answer because it's going to depend on specialty area, outcomes of program, location, and work setting. For example, if you want to do PP, you will likely not get your money's worth by completing a PhD since you already have an MA-level licensure. Psychologists are often reimbursed around the same as other MA level providers so the extra 7 years of training is not going to make much sense.

Whether it's worth it financially will also depend on the program. What are the APA match rates? Licensure outcomes? EPPP pass rates? If you want to go into neuropsychology, you will need to land an APA internship + 2 year neuropsych post-doc. If your program has poor APA match rates, then it will be tough for you to land a neuropsych position. I would personally only consider programs that have 80% and above apa match rates for the past few years and have fairly high EPPP pass rates (I limited my search to 90% or above). There are many PhD/PsyD grads (generally professional school grads) who spent 7 years in training and then cannot get licensed because they fail the test multiple times.

 

[FallenMind]

Good question, but impossible to answer because it's going to depend on specialty area, outcomes of program, location, and work setting. For example, if you want to do PP, you will likely not get your money's worth by completing a PhD since you already have an MA-level licensure. Psychologists are often reimbursed around the same as other MA level providers so the extra 7 years of training is not going to make much sense.

Whether it's worth it financially will also depend on the program. What are the APA match rates? Licensure outcomes? EPPP pass rates? If you want to go into neuropsychology, you will need to land an APA internship + 2 year neuropsych post-doc. If your program has poor APA match rates, then it will be tough for you to land a neuropsych position. I would personally only consider programs that have 80% and above apa match rates for the past few years and have fairly high EPPP pass rates (I limited my search to 90% or above). There are many PhD/PsyD grads (generally professional school grads) who spent 7 years in training and then cannot get licensed because they fail the test multiple times.

Great feedback and lots to think about 😀. Whenever you have time, here's some of the statistics you were discussing. Just curious as to what your thoughts are (It's kind of hard to tell because this program is relatively new and was APA accredited in 2005).

http://psychology.unlv.edu/performance.htm

 

[PHD12]

Great feedback and lots to think about 😀. Whenever you have time, here's some of the statistics you were discussing. Just curious as to what your thoughts are (It's kind of hard to tell because this program is relatively new and was APA accredited in 2005).

http://psychology.unlv.edu/performance.htm

I don't know anything personally about the program, but the statistics look very promising. They have a small class size, low acceptance rate, high apa internship rates (nearly 100% most years), very low attrition (only 1 student left the program last few years) and high licensure rate. Looks good overall in terms of these factors. There was one year where they technically had a 50% match rate, but it was only because 1 student threw it off. Research fit though is a key factor to consider as well. Good Luck!

 

[clinpsych]

Keep in mind that you will most likely need to supplement your existing experience (which generally means taking unpaid or low paying positions - factor in that cost as well). I haven't seen anything about research experience, which is critically important to getting into a Clinical Psych Ph.D. program. Also, to get into a neuropsych slot you'll need neuropsych or closely related experience.

 

[paramour]

And because I always have to double check my anecdotal evidence 🙂 I read the rest of the website and found the below:
"You don’t have to begin repaying most federal student loans until after you leave college or drop below half-time enrollment. However, PLUS loans enter repayment once your loan is fully disbursed (paid out)."

So some loans you do have to pay back immediately and some you don't. I personally did not receive loans I was required to pay back before graduation.

Er, I actually always see conflicting information posted on various sites about PLUS loans. I have a few from the past year or two and I most definitely am not repaying them at the present time. They were deferred like my others in the past (although they're certainly continuing to accrue interest).

 

[Goobernut]

Er, I actually always see conflicting information posted on various sites about PLUS loans. I have a few from the past year or two and I most definitely am not repaying them at the present time. They were deferred like my others in the past (although they're certainly continuing to accrue interest).

That's good to know, I hadn't ever heard of anyone having to pay while still in school, and JeyRo mentioning it might have changed scared me a little haha. I got my earlier quote directly from the studentaid.ed.gov site.

But I wouldn't doubt that the government doesn't have its act together and is publishing conflicting info. I went back to the site and found this exception (not on the same page I originally got the above quote from of course).

"However, if you are a graduate or professional student, your loan will be placed into deferment while you are enrolled at least half-time and for an additional six months after you cease to be enrolled at least half-time."

So maybe that clears things up?

 

[FallenMind]

Keep in mind that you will most likely need to supplement your existing experience (which generally means taking unpaid or low paying positions - factor in that cost as well). I haven't seen anything about research experience, which is critically important to getting into a Clinical Psych Ph.D. program. Also, to get into a neuropsych slot you'll need neuropsych or closely related experience.

My research interests lie in neuropsychology and also qualitative research on the benefits of individual therapy. I'm planning on enrolling in a Nueropsyh lab for Summer and Fall. I submitted my application for review. I have some experience in research, but not much. I conducted research with a professor for my Masters, but it was just qualitative data collection and analyzing some quantitative data. I feel like working in the neuropsych lab would help my application if I did decide to pursue doctoral studies.

I'm really still up in the air about it though. I want to apply to see if I'm accepted. I'd rather try and fail than look back and regret never have tried at all.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm currently a post-doc in neuropsych. It may be a bit early, but I think it was definitely worth it. I love what I do so far. I spent a year off in between UG and grad school, worked two jobs in that time (one was managing a research lab). Between the money I saved there, the graduate stipend, and some extra cash on the side I made as an assessment tech on a research project, I got through grad school with zero debt.

I enjoyed grad school. It was hard and you put in some long hours, but I had a great advisor and met a lot of awesome people who will hopefully be lifelong friends and colleagues. It all boils down to it being something that you really want to do. If it is, the years in school are worth it. Not being in debt helps though. Go for the funded Ph.D. programs.

 

[FallenMind]

Let me ask this question (I apologize if this has been asked already)

Since I am finishing my M.S. in CMHC, what's considered to be more important for doctoral admissions: Undergraduate GPA, Psychology GPA, or my Graduate GPA?

My graduate GPA thus far is 3.92. My Psychology GPA is 3.65. My undergraduate GPA is 3.52.

I'm assuming they would take everything into account?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You should ask in the WAMC thread at the top of the forum, as it is pretty off topic in this thread.