Is med school worth it

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saintbern45

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I am a (barely) non-trad student and I would like to specialize in psychiatry as of now. I have a 4.0 from a state school...meh. Have not taken the MCAT yet because I am not sure what route to go. I would like to hear from those who have gone though med school and psych residencies to say it it is worth it, or if they would have rather gone with a different route such as a PA. I could see myself being a psychiatrist or a psychologist doing DBT. I could also see myself going into oncology/hemetology or gyn/abortion. Is it worth the hell of med school and residency? Or is a mid level sufficient?
 
As in if you could do it over again would you? Is it worth dealing with the rest of the medical fields: surg etc to be a psychoatrist or would it be better to do a PA and go into psych? Obviously you wouldn't be an "expert" in the field but is that sufficient? Or do you have to be an MD to feel fulfilled?
 
I took the nontraditional route, and had a couple of careers and worked under a Physician for a time before I went to med school.
I've been watching playoff football all night and I like sports analogies, so here's one: Do you want the ball when the game is on the line, or do you want to be the back up? Are you willing to do the work and make the sacrifices needed to be the starting quarterback? Not everyone needs to be a doctor, and PAs and NPs are valuable, but I like to call the plays and dislike watching someone else do it when I can do it just as well or better. So aside from all the complaints, bumps in the road, and pain, I think it is worth it. I would be dissatisfied with a lesser role. I really like having that little bit extra knowledge, responsibility, and ability to help my patients.
 
I am a (barely) non-trad student and I would like to specialize in psychiatry as of now. I have a 4.0 from a state school...meh. Have not taken the MCAT yet because I am not sure what route to go. I would like to hear from those who have gone though med school and psych residencies to say it it is worth it, or if they would have rather gone with a different route such as a PA. I could see myself being a psychiatrist or a psychologist doing DBT. I could also see myself going into oncology/hemetology or gyn/abortion. Is it worth the hell of med school and residency? Or is a mid level sufficient?

4 years of med school followed by 4 years of OB/GYN residency will be tough, but once you match that 2 year abortion fellowship it will all be worth it!
 
I'd be a librarian.

No, I wouldn't do medicine again. And I wouldn't be a midlevel or a psychologist either.

Which isn't to say you shouldn't. Or that I'm all bitter or anything. I'm not. I just wouldn't do it again.

Give some thought about the debt you're going to take on and what kind of jobs are out there. Recognize that by taking on this debt, you've severely limited your career options going forward. If you don't like medicine, there are still things you can do, but it won't be the library sciences.

Learn about RVUs, patient satisfaction, MOC, prior authorizations, and the high levels of physician burnout and dissatisfaction. Understand that you are entering the profession with the highest (though often undocumented and not talked about) suicide rate. Accept that the national organizations that represent you are more interested in making money off of you than they are in being your advocate.

Talk with people who are doing what you'd like to be doing and have a plan for avoiding or accepting the pitfalls.

Recognize that in 8 years when you're done your plan may have been made obsolete by changing regulations.


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"Sufficient enough" for your ego? Bank account? Net worth? Status?

My one piece of advice: do not go to a med school that will leave you $300k in debt. That is a choice, not an unavoidable financial burden. You may have to move to another state, but it is possible to end medical school with a low 5 figure debt, if not zero debt.

The path to financial ruin begins with choices made in high school - similarly do not got to any college that will leave you with a 6 figure debt. Find the lowest cost alternative for college. There are folks who enter residency with combined student loan debt of $500k...YMMV, but no career is worth that, IMO.
 
Meh. I went to med school to become a pediatrician. I'd talked to pediatricians and volunteered at a well regarded children's hospital. I loved it (it was largely helping with well child checks). Ran the peds interest group my second year of med school. Did my third year peds rotation and HATED it. Went home most days and cried because I couldn't stand to see kids in that much pain. Not to mention that I got wicked sick myself. So between the respiratory bug I caught and all the crying I was doing after hours, it wasn't pretty.

I matched into internal medicine and now I'm a psychiatrist.

Worry about specialty later. Decide whether you want to be a physician first.


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Only an intern, but I think medschool is worth it. I would say just intentionally make choices that disturb your life as little as possible. Go to medschool/residency near friends and family, choose places your significant other likes, choose specialty and residency program wisely with lifestyle in mind/etc.

Medschool itself really is not so terrible, really just a more strenuous version of college without weekday partying, but the weekends were still generally a ton of fun. Altogether medschool probably has about 8 total terrible months. The week before each test in preclinical years, the month before step I, then surgery/OBGYN/IM 3rd year clerkships. Besides that medschool really isnt too bad

Internship, can really suck at times, but also your learning more than you ever thought you would and your actually getting paid which is nice for a change. Also psych interns get to do more of their actual target specialty during internship than most interns do. (For example wanting to do optho and having go through a year of hardcore IM or surgery seems like hell).
 
Bailed after intern year. Entered psych as a PGY-2.

(Please no more PMs asking me how to do that. It was ten years ago now. Plus it's been talked about. Search the forums. Not directed at anyone in particular. Just whenever I mention having done this, it's a guarantee that I'm going to be flooded with PMs from lurkers wanting advice. I stopped answering those years ago. Maybe I should just write a stock answer and paste it every time that happens. Nutshell version: be honest and transparent with your current PD. You will need their recommendation. Good PDs understand that this happens and will want to help you be happy. And reach out to the psych program at your home institution. They may not have a spot (mine didn't), but they're a good resource.)


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Damn, Shikima. That's not a bad deal. Maybe we should still do that now.


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Same stress level. Can earn more if you go to the higher traffic airports. Unfortunately for you and I, it's day late and a dollar short.
 
Bailed after intern year. Entered psych as a PGY-2.

(Please no more PMs asking me how to do that. It was ten years ago now. Plus it's been talked about. Search the forums. Not directed at anyone in particular. Just whenever I mention having done this, it's a guarantee that I'm going to be flooded with PMs from lurkers wanting advice. I stopped answering those years ago. Maybe I should just write a stock answer and paste it every time that happens. Nutshell version: be honest and transparent with your current PD. You will need their recommendation. Good PDs understand that this happens and will want to help you be happy. And reach out to the psych program at your home institution. They may not have a spot (mine didn't), but they're a good resource.)


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I bailed after internship too to a PGY-2 spot also.
 
So you want to be either a psychiatrist, an oncologist, or an abortion clinic doctor...or a PA?
One of the positives about the PA route is the possibility of changing your "specialty". As a doc you would have to do as sunlioness did and bail out early, or completely redo a different residency after the fact and I'm assuming that is not easy to do. I could also see myself doing research in the field of psych. Too many goddamn options.
 
It's not easy to do. For a myriad of reasons. Funding is an issue. And then there's the issue of living a resident's lifestyle after having been out of it for a while. It's a MASSIVE pay cut and a likely increase in hours. It's just not worth it. Not for me anyway. Kudos to those who do it.
 
One of the positives about the PA route is the possibility of changing your "specialty". As a doc you would have to do as sunlioness did and bail out early, or completely redo a different residency after the fact and I'm assuming that is not easy to do. I could also see myself doing research in the field of psych. Too many goddamn options.
Totally agree with this. Though I've met very few psychiatric PAs. I believe this is because the 26 month programs do not emphasize psych and the PAs I've talked to are somewhat afraid of psych meds/patients because of such little exposure. I do know a PA that created his own surgery practice and would somehow partner with local surgeons, find the patients himself, schedule the procedures, then be first assist in the surgery. He used to do that, now works as a cardiology PA in the hospital. So switching specialties is not a problem as a PA.
 
Yeah, I know a PA who switched from primary care to derm and back again. And who is now thinking of opening his own derm practice. I'm not entirely sure how that works, but he's thinking about it.

Their training kinda makes me nervous. I have much more faith in NPs with years of RN experience behind them. (But I don't want to start that whole debate again. Heh.)
 
Totally agree with this. Though I've met very few psychiatric PAs. I believe this is because the 26 month programs do not emphasize psych and the PAs I've talked to are somewhat afraid of psych meds/patients because of such little exposure. I do know a PA that created his own surgery practice and would somehow partner with local surgeons, find the patients himself, schedule the procedures, then be first assist in the surgery. He used to do that, now works as a cardiology PA in the hospital. So switching specialties is not a problem as a PA.

It's not like there is a lot of exposure during med school either which is a damn shame.
 
"Sufficient enough" for your ego? Bank account? Net worth? Status?

My one piece of advice: do not go to a med school that will leave you $300k in debt. That is a choice, not an unavoidable financial burden. You may have to move to another state, but it is possible to end medical school with a low 5 figure debt, if not zero debt.

The path to financial ruin begins with choices made in high school - similarly do not got to any college that will leave you with a 6 figure debt. Find the lowest cost alternative for college. There are folks who enter residency with combined student loan debt of $500k...YMMV, but no career is worth that, IMO.
This is pretty much how I feel. Medical school was pretty miserable for me, but my lifestyle is so much better than it would be otherwise that the 4 years were worth it. I was pretty fortunate to attend one of the five cheapest medical schools in the country. However, it would absolutely not be worth it if I were paying off loans for 20+ years, and if I didn't match into a specialty I find tolerable. I don't really enjoy going to work every day, but there's nothing I'd rather be doing. If I were in primary care, OB/GYN, or peds, I think I'd rather work at Starbucks.

If you go to a Caribbean school, you are going to have a difficult time matching to a lucrative, low-stress specialty. This definitely isn't worth it any more.

And don't go to medical school unless you have enough clinical experience to know you can be a type of physician who enjoys their work. Things have worked out well for me despite that I disliked most of my third year rotations, but I've been pretty fortunate.
 
This man is a bigot.

He has a very concrete view of gender roles.

He is a spokesman for a for-profit college.

He subscribes to religious views I do not share.


And yet he seems happy. His advice that follows is possibly destructive yet compelling and at least temporarily inspiring:

 
I was a nontrad and have a lot of debt, but overall I think it's worth it. I didn't hate medical school; I generally like what I do, and I think even with my debt, I'm still financially ahead of where I'd be with a lot of other professions. I don't think I would rather be a PA, NP or psychologist than a physician. Psychologists definitely come out behind financially unless you get into a funded Ph.D. program, which is really hard (harder than getting into medical school). Probably also a gross generalization, but from working with both psychologists and psychiatrists, I fit more with psychiatrists. Maybe that's because of my training, but I don't know. PAs don't often do psychiatry, and NPs really get significantly less training (and honestly know less) which would bug me. I can't answer for anyone else, but I don't regret going the medical school route.
 
I'd be a librarian.

No, I wouldn't do medicine again. And I wouldn't be a midlevel or a psychologist either.

OK, maybe I'd be a librarian, too. I know someone who is a librarian -- no debt, and she has tenure at our local public university. Makes maybe $70k/year.

Paths that I'm probably glad I didn't do --
history Ph.D. -- no jobs, no flexibility. Could be really awesome but would probably suck.
law -- started that path, hated it and like medicine so much more. Would have been financially ahead had I pushed through and gotten a big firm job.

Paths that maybe I should have considered more --
engineering/technology -- lots of boom and bust but a good field right now. My spouse is a software developer. He thinks for a living. Sounds kind of nice. I think some but nowhere near as much as he thinks. Salaries for most people top around low 100s, though.

Sad things about me where medicine works -- it's structured, and you know what the steps are. There is a hidden curriculum, but I'd argue that it's much smaller than what you find in most other professions. Guaranteed employment with guaranteed good income, which helps with my anxieties.
 
I'm very happy, have no regrets. But I'm me. How can I know what's right for you?
 
I'd be a librarian.

No, I wouldn't do medicine again. And I wouldn't be a midlevel or a psychologist either.

Which isn't to say you shouldn't. Or that I'm all bitter or anything. I'm not. I just wouldn't do it again.

Give some thought about the debt you're going to take on and what kind of jobs are out there. Recognize that by taking on this debt, you've severely limited your career options going forward. If you don't like medicine, there are still things you can do, but it won't be the library sciences.

Learn about RVUs, patient satisfaction, MOC, prior authorizations, and the high levels of physician burnout and dissatisfaction. Understand that you are entering the profession with the highest (though often undocumented and not talked about) suicide rate. Accept that the national organizations that represent you are more interested in making money off of you than they are in being your advocate.

Talk with people who are doing what you'd like to be doing and have a plan for avoiding or accepting the pitfalls.

Recognize that in 8 years when you're done your plan may have been made obsolete by changing regulations.


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This is a nice and cold hard dose of reality.
 
No, not if you can think of another profession you can enjoy, have a realistic shot at, and make a decent amount of money to live doing. If you're going back and forth on what to do, don't take the plunge. Do something else.
 
Fortunately, I'm feeling a lot better about medicine and life in general than I was in January.


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Like I said:
1-5 years out "no"
5-10 years out "maybe"
> 10 "yes!"
The process sucks, but the results are nice and time heals all. There are easier ways to make money so don't do it for financial reasons. The rewards have to be more internal. Glad to hear Sunliones turned the corner.
 
Figure out if you want to be a physician first. If you do, then you can find the right specialty. Some folks who attend medical school with dreams of being a psychiatrist end up happy, but you'll also see a subset of folks that really wanted to be therapists with a scrip pad and are unhappy with the fact that many frustrations of being a psychiatrist are the frustrations of being a physician.
If you're going back and forth on what to do, don't take the plunge. Do something else.
This is good advice. There's absolutely nothing wrong with changing careers, and people do it all the time. But with the cost of medical school, once you take the plunge, you are committed for many years afterwards due to the debt burden. This forces folks to stay in a career that shouldn't and you see these unhappy folks wandering the halls at any hospital. <shudder>
 
Like I said:
1-5 years out "no"
5-10 years out "maybe"
> 10 "yes!"
The process sucks, but the results are nice and time heals all. There are easier ways to make money so don't do it for financial reasons. The rewards have to be more internal. Glad to hear Sunliones turned the corner.

Thanks for this. I've wondered how it would be.
 
I love what I do, so yes it has been worth it for me.
 
For people going into medicine for the money, here's the deal. Government keeps cutting reimbursements across specialties, each year a different victim is targeted. Spending 8 years in training to make $200K is pathetic. If you're smart enough to be a doctor, you're smart enough to join, say, an investment firm or consulting agency like McKinsey, work just as hard for 2 years, come out making more than $200K, then pivot into business school, and leverage that to start as an executive somewhere making much much more. After 8 years of this $200K would be the tip you left for the waitress.
 
Spending 8 years in training to make $200K is pathetic. If you're smart enough to be a doctor, you're smart enough to join, say, an investment firm or consulting agency like McKinsey, work just as hard for 2 years, come out making more than $200K, then pivot into business school, and leverage that to start as an executive somewhere making much much more. After 8 years of this $200K would be the tip you left for the waitress.
I agree with this, but with a caveat:

There are easier and shorter career choices than medicine if you want a stable and predictable pathway to earn in the top 2% of this country. But I can't think of any that is one that involves public service.

If you find helping other people meaningful (and I mean directly helping people, not convincing yourself that the Apple Watch app you make helps people), I can't think of any careers like medicine in which you will be paid this kind of money and with this kind of job security.

If money is your big motivation, don't choose medicine. If helping people is your big motivation + stable/sizable income is your motivation, medicine is a good choice.
 
For people going into medicine for the money, here's the deal. Government keeps cutting reimbursements across specialties, each year a different victim is targeted. Spending 8 years in training to make $200K is pathetic. If you're smart enough to be a doctor, you're smart enough to join, say, an investment firm or consulting agency like McKinsey, work just as hard for 2 years, come out making more than $200K, then pivot into business school, and leverage that to start as an executive somewhere making much much more. After 8 years of this $200K would be the tip you left for the waitress.
I've worked in business and it is a completely different animal than healthcare. There are plenty of smart people who don't make squat. I know, I was one of them. :arghh: I currently make more than four times my highest wage ever in various businesses and it is because of the combination of business experience and professional abilities. Psychiatrist make much more than that. Sure some can hit the business jackpot, but it's much more of a gamble than psychiatry, that's for sure.
 
I agree with this, but with a caveat:

There are easier and shorter career choices than medicine if you want a stable and predictable pathway to earn in the top 2% of this country.
Can you name a few that you were thinking of?
 
Can you name a few that you were thinking of?
Leo's example of working for the consulting companies is one. I had the unpleasant experience of doing consulting with the boys of Toilette & Douche... sorry, typo, meant Deloitte & Touche. You work hard, but if you're willing to delay gratification and make sacrifices, you can make top dollar pretty quickly. But you really are selling your soul with those folks. You buff your ego telling yourself you're an expert in this or that, but if you want to make money, a big part of your time is doing sales of one form or another. It's ugly.

That said, like smalltownpsych mentioned, most things that pay big money require more than smarts and pluck and luck is a huge element. For me, transitioning to medicine late, the thing that I'm always surprised by isn't the salaries involved, but the predictability and job security compared to almost any other field that earns at this level.
 
Hard to say because who's at question is not me but you.

Just a very generalized statement-it's unfair to expect people at age 18 to 21 to pick something they'll have to do for the rest of their lives. Most people choose to be pre-med not really knowing what it's about or for that matter what anything is about for any job.
 
Hard to say because who's at question is not me but you.

Just a very generalized statement-it's unfair to expect people at age 18 to 21 to pick something they'll have to do for the rest of their lives. Most people choose to be pre-med not really knowing what it's about or for that matter what anything is about for any job.

So this. I worked for the feds, for a law firm, and did the non-clinical PhD thing before committing to medicine, and I'm glad I did. I developed a very strong sense of a) what I had zero interest in doing and b) which of the crappy aspects of medicine are found in almost any professional career.
 
For people going into medicine for the money, here's the deal. Government keeps cutting reimbursements across specialties, each year a different victim is targeted. Spending 8 years in training to make $200K is pathetic. If you're smart enough to be a doctor, you're smart enough to join, say, an investment firm or consulting agency like McKinsey, work just as hard for 2 years, come out making more than $200K, then pivot into business school, and leverage that to start as an executive somewhere making much much more. After 8 years of this $200K would be the tip you left for the waitress.
I know you're just given McKinsey as an example but an associate at McKinsey is not making >200k during their first 2 years, more like low mid 100s with potential for bonuses. McKinsey likes people with brand name educations. If you went to HMS or Stanford or Yale you'll basically automatically get a case interview, they may even interview you at your school if you're a student. if you go to east virginia or east carolina or some other backwater you'd be lucky to even get an interview at all. And while the case interview is not exactly rocket science I know a fair few physicians who did not even make it through that. If you do happen to get a job with them, they will work you to the bone, much harder than your average psych resident works (but the same as a resident doing "real" medicine), and they spit people out quite a bit so there's no guarantee you won't get fired within those 2 years. You wouldn't need to even do an MBA, they have their "mini MBA", people use it as a platform to get into VC etc. Given alot of people who apply for psychiatry are the dregs, I think a sizeable proportion would never make it. Also lots of physicians have no business acumen at all and would be completely unsuited to this kind of work. It's not just about being smart, and quite frankly I have met plenty of doctors who weren't terribly bright.

Physicians are basically serfs albeit highly respected and well-paid ones. You can't expect to bring in the big bucks by seeing patients alone, especially in a non-procedural specialty. But there are too many fields that offer you stable employment commanding what most people would regard as a high salary. If you want to make lots of money it's more risky as there are no guarantees at all. some ways psychiatrists have increased they revenue:
1) having a business employing multiple psychiatrists or nurse practitioners,
2) having a disability company doing independent medical examinations/disability evaluations (and independently contracting a good number of physicians to do these evaluations), 3) 3) providing consultation/medication to fortune 1000 (organizational psychiatrists and psychoanalysts in particular do this),
4) launching a start up (mental health has entered the tech market place as evidenced by Tom Insel's recent departure of the NIMH for Google/Alphabet),
5) becoming a shill for the pharmaceutical companies (of course it's all public now but one can triple or quadruple their basic income by whoring oneself out to the drug companies -- the golden era is over as psychopharmaceutical research is dying but there's still money to be made),
6) having a psychopharmacogenomic testing lab
7) having a lab for autoimmune panels etc,
8) forensic work (only a few rise to the top but senior forensic psychiatrists in NYC charge $900/hr for forensic consultation)
9) having your own line of neutraceuticals or other nutritional products
10) writing self-help books (which are amongst the biggest selling particularly in related to weight loss, smoking, fitness, and sleep),
11) having your own locum tenens company,
12) having a pseudoscience practice that has some sort of gimmick (like Dr. Amen's SPECT practice, or having a chain of ketamine clinics --- TMS is not a good bet for earning money as the overhead costs are quite high and few people are going to cough up $15k upfront for treatment)
13) developing a new form of psychotherapy
14) developing a new psychometric tool or psychiatric rating scale
15) having an educational business focusing on psychiatric CME products

the practice of medicine is largely protected from the whims and fancies of the free market, thus guaranteeing a fair salary for all. but these other potential revenue streams are at the whim of the free market with its attendant risks - you could potentially clean up or fall flat on your face...
 
You should go into investment banking or the tech industry. For the life of me I don't even know why you are posting this question. Med school is 4 years of overpriced rote memorization which will be outdated one minute after you graduate. Psychiatry was, is, and always will be awash in pseudoscience. Why do you want to go into it? If you are smart, and if you really care about people's mental problems, then you will do better to invent an app that will solve them with the push of a button. If you want to help humanity then go do something about climate change. Look at the future: do you really think it hinges on SSRIs and atypicals? Obviously not!

Hem/onc might be different. I hear they actually cure some forms of cancer nowadays. You still gotta deal with med school though.
 
Like I said:
1-5 years out "no"
5-10 years out "maybe"
> 10 "yes!"
The process sucks, but the results are nice and time heals all. There are easier ways to make money so don't do it for financial reasons. The rewards have to be more internal. Glad to hear Sunliones turned the corner.

Does resident knock out four years of the 1-5? Or is this post residency? 🙂
 
What has changed since January?

Don't get me wrong. I'd still much rather win the PowerBall. Then I'd quit my job and hire an elite male escort and take a cruise around the world. Wait . . . Did I just say that?

At least I've stopped trying to win the PowerBall. In Jan/Feb, I was buying tickets fairly regularly.

So what changed . . . I did some soul searching. I'm embarrassed to admit this, but discovering the enneagram actually helped. I'm solidly Type 4, which allowed me to recognize a pattern of never being satisfied with what was in front of me. A feeling of something being missing, that if I only had it, everything would be okay. And well, that's just me. Recognizing that helped me put things in better context.

I also realized that I'm damned good at what I do. Part of why I wanted to leave medicine was because I had a very healthy case of imposter syndrome. I thought I was a crappy psychiatrist just muddling through and that patients deserved better than me. This crappy job has helped me realize that I am actually quite good at this and do actually give a crap. I just can't hack the low paid CMHC scene.

I don't know what else I'd do. I'm not passionate about anything else and I realized it would be too exhausting and take forever to figure it out.

I quit my current job and am moving back to my old one. $50k higher salary, lower cost of living, and 30 minute follow ups with patients I actually know. Amazing!!!

Now I just gotta make it through to June without losing my crap. Seriously people, the urban northeast is highly highly overrated. Don't work there.
 
I know you're just given McKinsey as an example but an associate at McKinsey is not making >200k during their first 2 years, more like low mid 100s with potential for bonuses.
I would consider the early associate years of a consulting firm the equivalent of residency: long hours, constantly auditioning, with actual payoff to come. Someone could easily complete their BA, MBA, and do their first year or two at a consulting firm by the time one of us has finished residency.

There are also jobs in finance and tech that can have pretty predictably high payouts. Everyone dreams of their IPO making them rich, but this is extremely rare and lucky. But a motivated person with a BA alone at a tech company can rise from "coordinator" to "manager" in a few years and be earning $150K without too much problem. A few years later, a director title and $200K is quite possible. That's mostly attrition. VP and above takes actual talent, and luck.

Hard to beat medicine for predictable high income, though. But if your heart isn't in it, I would think it would make for a pretty ugly career.
 
I'm 35, I work like a junior partner at a law firm (80 hours a week), but I spend my days helping autistic children and kids with developmental delays. I make about the same money as a mid level McKinsey exec (500k) and I love me job (most days). That being said, the only reason to be a doctor is that you can't stand the idea of doing anything else. Otherwise the hoops of the mcat, usmle, Med school, and residency will eat you alive.


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