Is My Career Over (License Issues)

[needadvicebadly]

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I am due to start residency in June. The medical board requires documents pertaining to a past arrest (very minor isolated incident ~12 years ago). In no way do I expect this incident to prevent my from getting a license. The issue is, the board wants documentation from courts, police, etc. Some of these bodies are unwilling to send documents without a subpoena and the entire process, even after hiring a lawyer could take a very long time. It's possible the documents don't get to the board in time for them to grant me a license. I plan on writing the board and letting them know I will give them everything I can, but some of it may be impossible.

Is my career essentially over because of some administrative red tape? Is it possible to begin residency without a license, maybe on a vacation month, or something else? Currently stressed to the max over this...Do medical boards ever show leniency with matters like this?

 

[DisorderedDoc417]

I am due to start residency in June. The medical board requires documents pertaining to a past arrest (very minor isolated incident ~12 years ago). In no way do I expect this incident to prevent my from getting a license. The issue is, the board wants documentation from courts, police, etc. Some of these bodies are unwilling to send documents without a subpoena and the entire process, even after hiring a lawyer could take a very long time. It's possible the documents don't get to the board in time for them to grant me a license. I plan on writing the board and letting them know I will give them everything I can, but some of it may be impossible.

Is my career essentially over because of some administrative red tape? Is it possible to begin residency without a license, maybe on a vacation month, or something else? Currently stressed to the max over this...Do medical boards ever show leniency with matters like this?

I don’t know which state board you’re dealing with, but you should look into giving them a call and speaking with someone over the phone. They will be of more help in your unique situation.

 

[moto_za]

Was the arrest dropped/dismissed or did you end up getting charged for it? Sometimes showing documentation that it was dropped can take care of things. Are you they requiring this because it is showing up on your background check? I had a friend who was in a similar spot and he didn't have to do anything because it was dropped and the state that he was in didn't show it happening on background checks.

 

[needadvicebadly]

I was charged, but charges were eventually dropped. Case dismissed without a conviction. Additionally the case was sealed, which makes it almost impossible to find for most anyone (and impossible to find via background check).

 

[LadyHalcyon]

I was charged, but charges were eventually dropped. Case dismissed without a conviction. Additionally the case was sealed, which makes it almost impossible to find for most anyone (and impossible to find via background check).

I would suggest you hire an attorney to write a letter explaining the situation and why you are unable to procure records. Find everything you can and send it along with the letter from your attorney. Also, call your state board.

 

[needadvicebadly]

I've been told by a couple posters its possible, but has anyone else heard of anyone starting residency late because of issues with a license or other valid reason?

 

[Anasazi23]

From what I've seen in my forensic work, police departments are obligated to provide case material upon request.

I see this ALL the time in a contractual government agency that requires police and arrest records for fitness work I do.

If they're stonewalling you stating that a 'subpoena' is required, may want to get an attorney's request on letterhead to help grease the wheels. At this point, I believe these are just public records requests. If no records are available, try to get them to write a brief letter stating as such. Or, just inform the board that the records are not available, since the case has been expunged. I've seen that as good enough for high-level government agencies, so should be good for medical boards.

Been a long time........................maybe I've got no more wisdom to give... ; )

 

[needadvicebadly]

From what I've seen in my forensic work, police departments are obligated to provide case material upon request.

I see this ALL the time in a contractual government agency that requires police and arrest records for fitness work I do.

If they're stonewalling you stating that a 'subpoena' is required, may want to get an attorney's request on letterhead to help grease the wheels. At this point, I believe these are just public records requests. If no records are available, try to get them to write a brief letter stating as such. Or, just inform the board that the records are not available, since the case has been expunged. I've seen that as good enough for high-level government agencies, so should be good for medical boards.

Been a long time........................maybe I've got no more wisdom to give... ; )

I'm talking to lawyers in the state of my program tomorrow. We'll see what they say. For reference my case was sealed, not expunged because I was never convicted of anything. Not sure how this affects things. It was dismissed after a pre-trial diversion program.

 

[Monocles]

Late starts happen all the time. VISA issues, family issues, documentation issues, etc etc.

Every year there are tons of people starting as late as sept/oct due to licensing. Worst case scenario you have to make up the rotations later and graduate in 4.3 years instead of 4

 

[notdeadyet]

They key it’s getting your program involved early. If you disclose this stuff appropriately and appropriately early, your program will likely back you. If you wait to let them know until after it’s too late for them to accommodate you or lend their support, you’re less likely to get it.

 

[whopper]

Despite my forensic work I don't have much to offer in this area cause I've never got records for this reason nor seen this situation happen. I have, however, seen incidents where someone was supposed to provide paperwork, didn't and it really screwed up the resident. Another issue is when a party has to provide documents, and doesn't, it's not like that person being difficult is going to get in trouble, so often times they don't take the requests seriously.

 

[needadvicebadly]

Despite my forensic work I don't have much to offer in this area cause I've never got records for this reason nor seen this situation happen. I have, however, seen incidents where someone was supposed to provide paperwork, didn't and it really screwed up the resident.

ughh...like screws them up so bad they are no longer a resident...?

 

[whopper]

When I was a first year someone in a key position didn't mail my documents. I called the place repeatedly for 3 days cause my residency forced me to stop working until it was fixed. It forced me to use vacation days.

They were less then cooperative. A threat that I would sue if they didn't send the documents all of a sudden got gears moving. While I don't like it in general when a legal challenge is given, I called that office literally over 15 times and each time they blew me off, and the only thing they had to do was make sure my freaking ECFMG document was faxed and mailed. That's it.

I didn't hire a lawyer but I said that was the next step and anyone who received my call, I'd take their name and if results didn't happen shortly, all of those names would be included in the lawsuit. I also mentioned that if this caused repercussions on my career those damages would be added up and put into the lawsuit with the person on the other line held responsible. All of a sudden within 15 minutes all of the things needed were done.

Freaking ridiculous.

I called back 15 minutes later, after the lawsuit was threatened, and the person went from blowing me off to calling me sir, faxing me a receipt that it was sent, and seriously, I could hear her crying. This same person was a total a-hole to me before when I tried to do it the nice way. This only confirmed my suspicion that this literally could've been fixed within minutes if the other person just gave a damn and did their job. They wasted more time with them blowing me off for 3 days vs actually getting the real job done, but then again such is the way in bureaucracies where people aren't rewarded for doing their work and not punished for not doing their work.

I get the same thing often these days in the form of medical records departments at hospitals telling the patient and I they'll send over the records but half the time don't, even when the patient, my assistant and I called them dozens of times with each time with them telling me they'll send it.

 

[Merely]

When I was a first year someone in a key position didn't mail my documents. I called the place repeatedly for 3 days cause my residency forced me to stop working until it was fixed. It forced me to use vacation days.

They were less then cooperative. A threat that I would sue if they didn't send the documents all of a sudden got gears moving. While I don't like it in general when a legal challenge is given, I called that office literally over 15 times and each time they blew me off, and the only thing they had to do was make sure my freaking ECFMG document was faxed and mailed. That's it.

I didn't hire a lawyer but I said that was the next step and anyone who received my call, I'd take their name and if results didn't happen shortly, all of those names would be included in the lawsuit. I also mentioned that if this caused repercussions on my career those damages would be added up and put into the lawsuit with the person on the other line held responsible. All of a sudden within 15 minutes all of the things needed were done.

Freaking ridiculous.

I called back 15 minutes later, after the lawsuit was threatened, and the person went from blowing me off to calling me sir, faxing me a receipt that it was sent, and seriously, I could hear her crying. This same person was a total a-hole to me before when I tried to do it the nice way. This only confirmed my suspicion that this literally could've been fixed within minutes if the other person just gave a damn and did their job. They wasted more time with them blowing me off for 3 days vs actually getting the real job done, but then again such is the way in bureaucracies where people aren't rewarded for doing their work and not punished for not doing their work.

I get the same thing often these days in the form of medical records departments at hospitals telling the patient and I they'll send over the records but half the time don't, even when the patient, my assistant and I called them dozens of times with each time with them telling me they'll send it.

You’re img?

 

[whopper]

Yep.

 

[Old&InTheWay]

I strongly suspect that the board will accept your response that you are working on getting them what they are asking for. I mean, you disclosed a past arrest (non-conviction) that is sealed and which would not have turned up on a background check; you have already demonstrated your honesty. But I would also, and it sounds like you are already planning to, solicit some legal advice from a lawyer who specializes in health care law and professional licensure in the state in which you are applying for a license. They'll know what the board wants to hear and how to say it. And they may be able to help grease the wheels and get the records they want.

As an aside, I think medical schools should address this particular issue with students to whom it applies before they graduate. There has to be quite a few of us who have had brushes with the law at some point or other. If OP had known they may ask for records, they could have started the process of obtaining them years ago.

 

[Monocles]

I called back 15 minutes later, after the lawsuit was threatened, and the person went from blowing me off to calling me sir, faxing me a receipt that it was sent, and seriously, I could hear her crying. This same person was a total a-hole to me before when I tried to do it the nice way. This only confirmed my suspicion that this literally could've been fixed within minutes if the other person just gave a damn and did their job.

Awful but hilarious (not for you).

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I strongly suspect that the board will accept your response that you are working on getting them what they are asking for. I mean, you disclosed a past arrest (non-conviction) that is sealed and which would not have turned up on a background check; you have already demonstrated your honesty. But I would also, and it sounds like you are already planning to, solicit some legal advice from a lawyer who specializes in health care law and professional licensure in the state in which you are applying for a license. They'll know what the board wants to hear and how to say it. And they may be able to help grease the wheels and get the records they want.

As an aside, I think medical schools should address this particular issue with students to whom it applies before they graduate. There has to be quite a few of us who have had brushes with the law at some point or other. If OP had known they may ask for records, they could have started the process of obtaining them years ago.

I agree with you, and..., this is before he/she graduates. As much as medical schools might try, the medical students would have to come forward and that is more difficult than you might think.

 

[Old&InTheWay]

I agree with you, and..., this is before he/she graduates. As much as medical schools might try, the medical students would have to come forward and that is more difficult than you might think.

I just wonder if every medical student even realizes that boards will ask about any arrests, ever, regardless of whether they resulted in a conviction. That practice itself is absurd (particularly in the way it disproportionately affects people of color as they are targeted for unlawful arrest at a much higher rate than white people) and I would understand if a med student was caught off guard by it. You can't expect people to come forward if they have no idea it's a potential issue.

 

[whopper]

Agree.

Just the fact there there's not a conviction to some is equivalent to guilty which is unfair. It might've just been better (though not legal) to just say the problem never happened when BS like this happens.

I strongly suspect that the board will accept your response that you are working on getting them what they are asking for.

All things being equal with people who actually are doing their jobs in an industrious manner yes.

But within bureaucracies where people aren't punished nor rewarded such things happen as people sitting on their butts up to indefinitely. Like I wrote above and in other threads I only get records about half the time when asked, even when asked for over 10x from other hospitals with the schmuck on the other end even telling me it'll be sent out. We don't have predictive power over this cause medical boards vary per state.

In the state of NJ if you apply for a medical license, at least when I was there, it cost over $1000, it took about 1 year to process, and if you called the office just for some superficial information such as did they receive your applications, you were literally put on hold for hours with them often times hanging up on you even if you stuck it through and waited for over 5+ hours. I wasn't going to practice there but I remember other residents who were going to practice in NJ ranting, "I don't even know if they got my application, and I know I got to wait a year, so I just want to hear if they got it and no one talks to me!"

In the neighboring state of PA it took a few days to process the application and it cost much less. I forgot the amount but it was much less than half NJ's fee.

What's going on? Your guess is good as mine. Doctors in NJ would all complain about this process and the cost was and there were no answers ever given and things never changed. That was over 10 years ago so maybe things hopefully improved.

 

[artorious22]

I am due to start residency in June. The medical board requires documents pertaining to a past arrest (very minor isolated incident ~12 years ago). In no way do I expect this incident to prevent my from getting a license. The issue is, the board wants documentation from courts, police, etc. Some of these bodies are unwilling to send documents without a subpoena and the entire process, even after hiring a lawyer could take a very long time. It's possible the documents don't get to the board in time for them to grant me a license. I plan on writing the board and letting them know I will give them everything I can, but some of it may be impossible.

Is my career essentially over because of some administrative red tape? Is it possible to begin residency without a license, maybe on a vacation month, or something else? Currently stressed to the max over this...Do medical boards ever show leniency with matters like this?

Usually boards just care about convictions. I think maybe you should call them and ask what they need specifically? I would think that if your arrest did not result in a conviction you should have no problem obtaining a license.

 

[FlowRate]

It's really up to your residency program but late starts, as pointed out ITT, don't have to be a career-killer. I have a colleague who, for somewhat complicated reasons, couldn't get their med school to verify their degree until several months in to residency. The big downside is that starting TOO late can end up causing you to have to finish late and also complicates/negates fast tracking child, if that's something you wanted to do.

 

[Old&InTheWay]

I'm talking to lawyers in the state of my program tomorrow. We'll see what they say. For reference my case was sealed, not expunged because I was never convicted of anything. Not sure how this affects things. It was dismissed after a pre-trial diversion program.

What did the lawyers say...any updates?

 

[needadvicebadly]

What did the lawyers say...any updates?

Lawyer initially waffled and considered telling me to not disclose everything since the record is sealed. However he couldn't guarantee they still wouldn't see it. In the end he opted for full disclosure with the idea being overly open and honest would help me out. He says they may not actually need every single document depsite their official policy, since obtaining some are proving difficult.

Now I just sit and wait and hope doing the right thing works out in my favor.

If it doesn't, I'll pay the retainer and hope that he can work his magic with the board to get me through. He mentioned having close contacts with their executive director, so hoping if it comes to it he'll be able to help my app pushed through without all documentation.

 

[FlowRate]

because child psychiatry is becoming increasingly unpopular, it is easy to fasttrack even if you are off cycle though obviously your options are limited to unfilled programs (of which there are many).

The issue, at least for my colleague, was that the board would not give them credit for 3 years of adult residency if they fast tracked. They checked with the board and our PD extensively (this resident does not shy away from appropriate self advocacy.) Our program usually has a couple of people who fast track each year, so it's not a program structure thing. I think the way it works out is that they are basically being given credit for each contiguous full year of training. So no fast track because they wouldn't be able to start a child residency on time and still get credit for the required adult training. They also wouldn't be able to start regular fellowship on time due to being somehow obligated to finish out the extra months after PGY-4 (that part I don't really get because we have had a few people finish residency a few months early for various reasons.)

 

[OldPsychDoc]

The issue, at least for my colleague, was that the board would not give them credit for 3 years of adult residency if they fast tracked. They checked with the board and our PD extensively (this resident does not shy away from appropriate self advocacy.) Our program usually has a couple of people who fast track each year, so it's not a program structure thing. I think the way it works out is that they are basically being given credit for each contiguous full year of training. So no fast track because they wouldn't be able to start a child residency on time and still get credit for the required adult training. They also wouldn't be able to start regular fellowship on time due to being somehow obligated to finish out the extra months after PGY-4 (that part I don't really get because we have had a few people finish residency a few months early for various reasons.)

The ABPN refuses to give credit for partial years--so if you expect to fast track, you need to find a fellowship that is willing to fast track you off-cycle.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

(that part I don't really get because we have had a few people finish residency a few months early for various reasons.)

? The only way to finish a residency a month early is to finish it 11 months late. No amount of stored up vacation or sick time can let you become board eligible before 48 months of training, even if your last two months are spent playing tidily winks on the shore of Ipanema. You can't start any fellowship other than child without a full 48 months of training, and you can't start child with less than 36 months. So just to be clear, finishing "a few months early" = finishing quite a few months late.

 

[Old&InTheWay]

Lawyer initially waffled and considered telling me to not disclose everything since the record is sealed. However he couldn't guarantee they still wouldn't see it. In the end he opted for full disclosure with the idea being overly open and honest would help me out. He says they may not actually need every single document depsite their official policy, since obtaining some are proving difficult.

Now I just sit and wait and hope doing the right thing works out in my favor.

If it doesn't, I'll pay the retainer and hope that he can work his magic with the board to get me through. He mentioned having close contacts with their executive director, so hoping if it comes to it he'll be able to help my app pushed through without all documentation.

Good luck...I think you made the right choice and suspect things will work out fine. From everything I’ve heard from the lawyers who have given us lectures throughout medical school, failure to disclose something is so much worse than whatever it is you would have to disclose.

 

[FlowRate]

you missed the point. as i stated above, you would start off cycle. there are plenty of child psychiatry fellowships that have openings so you could start off cycle, but obviously they may not be the desired programs as the better fellowships usually fill

Thanks for clarifying, I didn't know that was an option.

 

[needadvicebadly]

*UPDATE....

I heard back from the medical board this morning and they have granted my training license which will allow me to start residency on time. For anyone who may stumble upon this thread, I was completely honest and disclosed everything...even something they may or may not have even found. At least in my case, honesty was the best policy.

 

[Merely]

Nice!

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Good for you! Thanks for the update and the validation of the moral high ground.