is my dismissal unfair or warranted?

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deleted1141836

I'm an M1 (first semester) at a DO school where I just got dismissed.
I failed a couple of classes and was sent to progress committee. I described situation to faculty members- had some VERY serious health issues during semester that led to me being in the hospital at least twice a week/having seizures but was unable to take LoA due to being my 1st semester (they were aware of my health struggles the whole time and refused to make any accommodations or provide support) - I included notes from several doctors who explained in detail my diagnosis and confirmed that my academic performance + quality of life had been heavily impacted due to these issues but that with a LOA and medication I'd be much better. I was hoping for a chance to repeat M1 or at LEAST remediate the courses. But was instead dismissed and appealed, pointed out that I was entitled to disability accommodations (in a respectful way), but was flat out denied. No reasoning or options for readmission in the future.

Everyone I've talked to said that this is very extreme, especially considering multiple people at my school have been allowed to repeat M1 year more than once (and they failed more classes then me AND had no legit reason besides saying their study habits were poor)

If I'm wrong in the fact that this seems unfair then let me know, but so far it seems like no one else has been dismissed without any chance at all to remediate or retake, especially with documented disbailities??
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I mean you’re right it seems extreme and it does seem unfair if you did in fact have a medical condition which prevented you from continuing your education. At the end of the day though it doesn’t matter how you, I, or anyone else feels about. The only thing that matters is what your school handbook says. Have you read through it?
 
Sorry this happened to you.

Obviously we are getting a very one-sided account of what happened--not outright denying it may have happened as you claim, however the timeline of how everything happened and what you specifically asked for and when and how is important. For example, did you specifically request an LOA before you failed a class or after you failed and were put on probation? Is it actually written in your student handbook that you can't take an LOA for any reason in your first semester? What specific accommodation did you request, and would you still be meeting the technical requirements of your school if that accommodation had been granted? These are just a few of the questions that come to mind.

If you were in and out of the hospital twice a week, it's difficult to imagine what kind of accommodation would have allowed you to be successful without an outright LOA. Knowing more about the other students who were allowed to remediate, and specifically how long ago they were allowed to do so, might help--for example, if they have seen that many of these students who are allowed to repeat with multiple failures ultimately are unable to successfully remediate, then it is possible they have recently become more strict in criteria for considering outright dismissal.

Again... it is entirely possible you got hosed, and you should read your handbook and see if you have any rights. But these are a few thoughts I have that may explain how your school could have arrived at this conclusion.
 
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Dr. Anonymouss said:
I mean you’re right it seems extreme and it does seem unfair if you did in fact have a medical condition which prevented you from continuing your education. At the end of the day though it doesn’t matter how you, I, or anyone else feels about. The only thing that matters is what your school handbook says. Have you read through it?
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yes! ive like memorized that thing cover to back. its literally SO vague, which I think they do on purpose. And I asked them multiple times to clarify certain policies and they just would tell me to "refer back to the handbook" but then I (nicely) explained I didn't understand it and I felt like I was being gaslight constantly, to the point I actually cried like 3 times in front of different faculty members because they were being so hostile to me. I even tried scouring the internet for old policy books from years back to see if maybe they had better clarifications, but they didn't.
 
GoSpursGo said:
Sorry this happened to you.

Obviously we are getting a very one-sided account of what happened--not outright denying it may have happened as you claim, however the timeline of how everything happened and what you specifically asked for and when and how is important. For example, did you specifically request an LOA before you failed a class or after you failed and were put on probation? Is it actually written in your student handbook that you can't take an LOA for any reason in your first semester? What specific accommodation did you request, and would you still be meeting the technical requirements of your school if that accommodation had been granted? These are just a few of the questions that come to mind.

If you were in and out of the hospital twice a week, it's difficult to imagine what kind of accommodation would have allowed you to be successful without an outright LOA. Knowing more about the other students who were allowed to remediate, and specifically how long ago they were allowed to do so, might help--for example, if they have seen that many of these students who are allowed to repeat with multiple failures ultimately are unable to successfully remediate, then it is possible they have recently become more strict in criteria for considering outright dismissal.

Again... it is entirely possible you got hosed, and you should read your handbook and see if you have any rights. But these are a few thoughts I have that may explain how your school could have arrived at this conclusion.
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I won't get into to many details because its a really complicated story due to my unique situation/illness. But basically they have different LOA policies depending on what specific program and what year you're in, so it was very confusing to tell exactly what the policies were. But when I asked them about it they said only under extreme circumstances did they grant those to first years, and I guess they didn't think mine were extreme at that point? Basically what I gathered is they thought I was making it up or exaggerating how sick I was - they actually made that pretty clear at various points.

I initially just assumed they were stricter now, but after reading SDN its become clear to me that my specific school basically targets students who they don't like or who make complaints. I won't name names but it won't be too hard to guess who honestly.
 
poppy879 said:
yes! ive like memorized that thing cover to back. its literally SO vague, which I think they do on purpose. And I asked them multiple times to clarify certain policies and they just would tell me to "refer back to the handbook" but then I (nicely) explained I didn't understand it and I felt like I was being gaslight constantly, to the point I actually cried like 3 times in front of different faculty members because they were being so hostile to me. I even tried scouring the internet for old policy books from years back to see if maybe they had better clarifications, but they didn't.
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Here are my thoughts without knowing your entire medical issue:
If your seizure disorder is this poorly controlled at present, you are probably unable to concentrate, study, be in class, or perhaps even remember things during the post-ictal state. No number of accommodations can make up for all the class time you are missing.
The amount of work you have missed will be impossible to catch up on and stay with your class.
If your doctors feel there is a chance to manage your seizures and get you stabilized, perhaps you could begin 1st year again when healthy.
I'm not sure if this option is available to you (taking a medical leave of absence with the possibility to return).
 
wysdoc said:
Here are my thoughts without knowing your entire medical issue:
If your seizure disorder is this poorly controlled at present, you are probably unable to concentrate, study, be in class, or perhaps even remember things during the post-ictal state. No number of accommodations can make up for all the class time you are missing.
The amount of work you have missed will be impossible to catch up on and stay with your class.
If your doctors feel there is a chance to manage your seizures and get you stabilized, perhaps you could begin 1st year again when healthy.
I'm not sure if this option is available to you (taking a medical leave of absence with the possibility to return).
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well that's what I had asked for, because yeah there was no way I could go back but I was even willing to redo the whole year if that's what they wanted (and pay extra). But they were just super set on dismissing me, like they even told me before my meeting that I should start looking for a plan b (which I thought was super disheartening + mean to tell me like 24 hours before after I'd spent 2 weeks preparing a statement)
 
I guess I just feel frustrated that they clearly do this to other students and get away with it. Ive come to terms mostly with the fact I'm not going to be a doctor. And honestly I would never go back there anyway. But I hate that I'm out a semesters worth of money and feel stupid for going when I had other options but wanted to stay near home. I was warned about them before and I should've listened .
 
poppy879 said:
I guess I just feel frustrated that they clearly do this to other students and get away with it. Ive come to terms mostly with the fact I'm not going to be a doctor. And honestly I would never go back there anyway. But I hate that I'm out a semesters worth of money and feel stupid for going when I had other options but wanted to stay near home. I was warned about them before and I should've listened .
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Did you know about your medical issues when you started school?
If so, you can't really blame the school for noticing that you were not able to be present and learn the needed information.
 
wysdoc said:
Did you know about your medical issues when you started school?
If so, you can't really blame the school for noticing that you were not able to be present and learn the needed information.
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no I was perfectly healthy, had like never been sick in my life! until the 6th week of med school. That's also why I didn't probably advocate for myself as much as I should've, cause I'd never even had to think about things like medical leaves or accommodations so it was all new. I thought I was just really stressed out at first tbh.
I guess I've always had this dormant genetic condition that was always there but it took the stress of med school to actually trigger it.thats what they think at least.
 
poppy879 said:
I won't get into to many details because its a really complicated story due to my unique situation/illness. But basically they have different LOA policies depending on what specific program and what year you're in, so it was very confusing to tell exactly what the policies were. But when I asked them about it they said only under extreme circumstances did they grant those to first years, and I guess they didn't think mine were extreme at that point? Basically what I gathered is they thought I was making it up or exaggerating how sick I was - they actually made that pretty clear at various points.

I initially just assumed they were stricter now, but after reading SDN its become clear to me that my specific school basically targets students who they don't like or who make complaints. I won't name names but it won't be too hard to guess who honestly.
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Let’s start with the obvious—of course what happened to you was completely unfair. It sucks that your life has been derailed by this medical condition. Whether your school was justified in this decision is another question, and it’s hard to answer definitively. Ultimately I suspect you’re looking for sympathy, and that is totally understandable.

You really made two requests. The first was for “disability accommodations.” However, what is required is “reasonable accommodations,” not whatever you ask for. As highlighted by @wysdoc , it doesn't sound like any level of accommodations would have allowed you to keep up with the material in the class, so your request for accommodations really is not something your school could provide.

The second request was for an LOA. I think anyone reading this story sympathizes with you. Whether they were unreasonable in denying the LOA really depends on their policy and how prior students have done after a first year LOA
 
now that we've figured out what the issue actually is (health-wise) its very well controlled with medication. The only accommodations I asked for were like bathroom breaks and the ability to take a test in a separate room without distractions...it wasn't; like I asked for. a lot. Its just odd given that I know classmates of mine have repeated their M1 year like twice, after failing several courses several times. And I didn't even have the option to remediate ONE single exam.

I wish they had just told me why they thought I didn't deserve a second chance when literally everyone else seemed to get one. I would've understood if everyone else was held to those same standards but literally no one else was.
 
At this point, you have few options. Whether it's "fair" or not only matters if it makes you feel any better. Life isn't fair and people/corporations/employers/schools do unfair things all the time, unfortunately.

Really the only option you have at this point is a lawsuit, if you want to pursue it. There are several possibilities:

1. Breach of contract-- if the school has a policy for dismissal vs repeat, and they didn't follow it, then a lawsuit might force them to take you back. Sounds like you don't want that anyway.
2. Discrimination - even if they did follow their policy which gives them latitude, you can show that they applied it differently to you because of some protected class.
3. ADA - the Americans with Disabilities Act requires that employers (and schools) make reasonable accommodations for people with qualifying disabilities. In your case, an LOA to restart the next year might be considered a reasonable accommodation - regardless of their policies on LOA's. The question here would be 1) do you have a qualifying disability, and 2) did you make a defacto request for accommodations, and 3) did the school consider all viable options. Likely your illness counts -- although you didn't have it for 6 months, it would be expected to last for at least 6 months. Only concern is that on treatment you may have no limitations, which then may or may not qualify for ADA.

A lawsuit is more likely to get you $$$ rather than your spot back, although both are possible. Since we're only hearing your half of the story, it's quite possible that none of this would be successful, if there were more facts to the case. And any lawsuit takes years to resolve, so it's a slow process.
 
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I agree with my learned colleague. A medical school might be successfully sued if their actions have been shown to be arbitrary or capricious. It seems like they have done the ladder with you.

A real medical school would have a well detailed student handbook.

You will need to be able to show that you had a documented disability, and you asked for it by the proper channels. You'll also need to show that you asked for leave of absence in a timely manner and also through the right channels
 
Yeah I think I’ll probably reach out to a lawyer and see if I can at least get some tuition back. But as for my spot I don’t want to go back there, and I think they would just find a way to kick me out again if I did cause they clearly don’t like me.

Will a dismissal have any impact if I apply to nursing or a graduate program? I’m wondering if I could see if I could at least get the dismissal changed to a withdrawal.
 
Dantes said:
If your school actually violated either their own policies on accommodations or LOAs, or ADA guidelines, you need to lawyer up. Doesn't matter if they don't like you.
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yeah I actually got in touch with one today and they seemed to think there was a strong case for various reasons even beyond this incident. I will probably wait a bit to pursue further action as I'm still trying to emotionally recover from the realization that I will never be a doctor.
 
poppy879 said:
yeah I actually got in touch with one today and they seemed to think there was a strong case for various reasons even beyond this incident. I will probably wait a bit to pursue further action as I'm still trying to emotionally recover from the realization that I will never be a doctor.
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Reapply to other schools. It may be a long shot but you may find one that’ll give you a chance.
 
DarkBluMage said:
Reapply to other schools. It may be a long shot but you may find one that’ll give you a chance.
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I feel like my experience at this school (there's a lot of stuff besides this dismissal that I didn't get into) has really change my perspective on the medical field. I just don't know if I would succeed in a such a competitive and hostile environment, and from what my fellow classmates have told me, it just gets worse during clinical years. I don't think it's quite this bad at other schools, but I know that in general the medical field is not very welcoming to people with disabilities. Though my health is relatively under control right now, I was warned that there may be times where I get very sick again and would require certain accommodations and understanding from others. It just doesn't seem like that's an option.
 
poppy879 said:
yeah I actually got in touch with one today and they seemed to think there was a strong case for various reasons even beyond this incident. I will probably wait a bit to pursue further action as I'm still trying to emotionally recover from the realization that I will never be a doctor.
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Good luck. Just keep in mind, while it would be nice to get your money back, you don't want to sink a bunch more money. Lawyers almost always think they can make a case, but it's easy to make that calculus when they know they'll get paid regardless. Have to really be thoughtful about whether you can prove you were discriminated against or that the ADA should apply and that an LOA would be a reasonable accommodation.
 
GoSpursGo said:
Good luck. Just keep in mind, while it would be nice to get your money back, you don't want to sink a bunch more money. Lawyers almost always think they can make a case, but it's easy to make that calculus when they know they'll get paid regardless. Have to really be thoughtful about whether you can prove you were discriminated against or that the ADA should apply and that an LOA would be a reasonable accommodation.
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Yeah I'm gonna need to get a few different opinions before I take action. Luckily I was prelaw before premed so I have some connections who will help me for free.
In reality, I should've advocated for myself more when my requests for accommodations were denied, or pushed harder when they didn't clarify the policies, but I didn't expect it lead to such a drastic outcome.
An unfortunate learning experience for me.
 
poppy879 said:
yeah I actually got in touch with one today and they seemed to think there was a strong case for various reasons even beyond this incident. I will probably wait a bit to pursue further action as I'm still trying to emotionally recover from the realization that I will never be a doctor.
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If this is actually a case you can win/appeal, they would have to let you back in. Whether or not you want to continue is up to you. Just a threat of a lawsuit would make the school's lawyers evaluate the case, and if it seems like they were in the wrong, especially on ADA grounds, you would likely hear about it pretty quickly.
 
I feel bad for the OP. I will say the first thing I thought of was PNES when I heard their story. I hope they get better and find a path in life.
 
This is a beautiful lawsuit waiting to happen. They've specifically set you up to fail and then dismissed you due to illness. These are all gross violations of the law. With a good attorney, you'll be back, and your schooling will be free
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
This is a beautiful lawsuit waiting to happen. They've specifically set you up to fail and then dismissed you due to illness. These are all gross violations of the law. With a good attorney, you'll be back, and your schooling will be free
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I feel like I rarely hear about people doing this, is it just not made public?
 
poppy879 said:
I feel like I rarely hear about people doing this, is it just not made public?
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Yes, most court cases end up in settlements, and 99% of them have the clause that you won't comment on the details. OP can easily win this, get attorney fees paid, and have his schooling be free. I doubt they'd make a settlement where they offer much more than this
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
This is a beautiful lawsuit waiting to happen. They've specifically set you up to fail and then dismissed you due to illness. These are all gross violations of the law. With a good attorney, you'll be back, and your schooling will be free
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Fox Tv Popcorn GIF by The Four


Yah. NGL this seems egregious.
 
Although certainly worth exploring, nothing about a lawsuit is beautiful or easy. They are usually long, painful, and drawn out. We are only hearing half of the story, and there may be many more details which would change the outcome. Timing of requests for accommodation for example -- if they were made only during the appeal, that would be too late for protections.

I agree the OP should explore the possibility of a lawsuit, but they need to plan for a long, slow slog that may be quite unpleasant.
 
NotAProgDirector said:
Although certainly worth exploring, nothing about a lawsuit is beautiful or easy. They are usually long, painful, and drawn out. We are only hearing half of the story, and there may be many more details which would change the outcome. Timing of requests for accommodation for example -- if they were made only during the appeal, that would be too late for protections.

I agree the OP should explore the possibility of a lawsuit, but they need to plan for a long, slow slog that may be quite unpleasant.
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Yeah, most understand we are making some assumptions and calling it "beautiful" is hyperbole for the fact that it's legit lawsuit if it happened as presented
 
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poppy879 said:
I'm an M1 (first semester) at a DO school where I just got dismissed.
I failed a couple of classes and was sent to progress committee. I described situation to faculty members- had some VERY serious health issues during semester that led to me being in the hospital at least twice a week/having seizures but was unable to take LoA due to being my 1st semester (they were aware of my health struggles the whole time and refused to make any accommodations or provide support) - I included notes from several doctors who explained in detail my diagnosis and confirmed that my academic performance + quality of life had been heavily impacted due to these issues but that with a LOA and medication I'd be much better. I was hoping for a chance to repeat M1 or at LEAST remediate the courses. But was instead dismissed and appealed, pointed out that I was entitled to disability accommodations (in a respectful way), but was flat out denied. No reasoning or options for readmission in the future.

Everyone I've talked to said that this is very extreme, especially considering multiple people at my school have been allowed to repeat M1 year more than once (and they failed more classes then me AND had no legit reason besides saying their study habits were poor)

If I'm wrong in the fact that this seems unfair then let me know, but so far it seems like no one else has been dismissed without any chance at all to remediate or retake, especially with documented disbailities??
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Im very curious to hear more details if you feel comfortable sharing with me. Most places let you repeat the year after 1-2 failures. Why do you think they targeted you and not others? were there already issues you were having with the school?
 
NotAProgDirector said:
Although certainly worth exploring, nothing about a lawsuit is beautiful or easy. They are usually long, painful, and drawn out. We are only hearing half of the story, and there may be many more details which would change the outcome. Timing of requests for accommodation for example -- if they were made only during the appeal, that would be too late for protections.

I agree the OP should explore the possibility of a lawsuit, but they need to plan for a long, slow slog that may be quite unpleasant.
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Bolded for emphasis. Many times when I see stories like this, the person tries to bootstrap through it and only asked for help once they were already on the doorstep of dismissal, and often it is too late for that. But if the OP was up front and asking for help from the beginning, there may be a case here.
 
poppy879 said:
I feel like my experience at this school (there's a lot of stuff besides this dismissal that I didn't get into) has really change my perspective on the medical field. I just don't know if I would succeed in a such a competitive and hostile environment, and from what my fellow classmates have told me, it just gets worse during clinical years. I don't think it's quite this bad at other schools, but I know that in general the medical field is not very welcoming to people with disabilities. Though my health is relatively under control right now, I was warned that there may be times where I get very sick again and would require certain accommodations and understanding from others. It just doesn't seem like that's an option.
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It's profoundly difficult to be both a doctor and a patient. Some of that challenge is unexamined ableism in our profession but a lot of it is that the demands placed on a physician are unreasonable enough that reasonable accomodations don't necessarily help. The toll of medicine just gets worse from M1 year on, both mentally and physically. If there's anything else you'd be content doing, you'll probably be happier pivoting to that. FWIW, you have my sympathies for what you've gone and are going through.
 
I'm sorry to hear. Lawsuits get in the way of your ultimate goal and could blackmark you if you tried to go elsewhere.

I suggest collecting your documentation, take a leave in a research lab for a few years, and try to apply to other schools if need be. Now I don't know if sending your documentation to COCA will do anything significant, but that may be your only other arrow in your quiver unless it is taken away through a settlement.

Doctors with Disabilities is trying to get stronger advocacy and safeguards for disabled professionals and students. I don't know if they can add more.
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
I'm sorry to hear. Lawsuits get in the way of your ultimate goal and could blackmark you if you tried to go elsewhere.

I suggest collecting your documentation, take a leave in a research lab for a few years, and try to apply to other schools if need be. Now I don't know if sending your documentation to COCA will do anything significant, but that may be your only other arrow in your quiver unless it is taken away through a settlement.

Doctors with Disabilities is trying to get stronger advocacy and safeguards for disabled professionals and students. I don't know if they can add more.
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Being dismissed from medical school is a blackmark itself. I’m fully for a lawsuit. This kind of thing is unacceptable to me.
 
DarkBluMage said:
Being dismissed from medical school is a blackmark itself. I’m fully for a lawsuit. This kind of thing is unacceptable to me.
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Agreed. Not pulling the trigger because you think that somewhere down the road you might get back in is misguided. Most people that are dismissed don’t get another chance.
 
annoyedpsychiatrist said:
Im very curious to hear more details if you feel comfortable sharing with me. Most places let you repeat the year after 1-2 failures. Why do you think they targeted you and not others? were there already issues you were having with the school?
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I don't know honestly! I feel like I didn't fit in there as well as some of my classmates, mostly because I was just too sick to ever go to any social events or in-person class, and often had to do make-up labs/tests. I kind of got the feeling that the faculty was getting annoyed with me for always being sick because it meant they had to come in on their days off to proctor my test/lab. After discussing with other students it sounds like they have very little patience for people falling behind or needing accommodations in anyway...so I guess they just thought I was too much trouble than it was worth to keep me around?
 
DO2015CA said:
Agreed. Not pulling the trigger because you think that somewhere down the road you might get back in is misguided. Most people that are dismissed don’t get another chance.
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yeah I have mostly given up on going back to med school. Everyone I've talked to has agreed a lawsuit is definaltey the next course of action, I'm just not mentally ready yet to deal with that.
 
poppy879 said:
I don't know honestly! I feel like I didn't fit in there as well as some of my classmates, mostly because I was just too sick to ever go to any social events or in-person class, and often had to do make-up labs/tests. I kind of got the feeling that the faculty was getting annoyed with me for always being sick because it meant they had to come in on their days off to proctor my test/lab. After discussing with other students it sounds like they have very little patience for people falling behind or needing accommodations in anyway...so I guess they just thought I was too much trouble than it was worth to keep me around?
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I find it curious that your original post says ‘they were aware of my health struggles the whole time and refused to make any accommodations or provide support’, yet this suggests faculty were regularly coming in on their days off to accommodate you. That’s a huge sign of support. Seems like there is more to this, but I do wish you well as you navigate it.
 
HighwayVagabond said:
I find it curious that your original post says ‘they were aware of my health struggles the whole time and refused to make any accommodations or provide support’, yet this suggests faculty were regularly coming in on their days off to accommodate you. That’s a huge sign of support. Seems like there is more to this, but I do wish you well as you navigate it.
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There often is 2 sides and we only get 1 here on sdn. Welcome lol
 
deleted1141836 said:
I'm an M1 (first semester) at a DO school where I just got dismissed.
I failed a couple of classes and was sent to progress committee. I described situation to faculty members- had some VERY serious health issues during semester that led to me being in the hospital at least twice a week/having seizures but was unable to take LoA due to being my 1st semester (they were aware of my health struggles the whole time and refused to make any accommodations or provide support) - I included notes from several doctors who explained in detail my diagnosis and confirmed that my academic performance + quality of life had been heavily impacted due to these issues but that with a LOA and medication I'd be much better. I was hoping for a chance to repeat M1 or at LEAST remediate the courses. But was instead dismissed and appealed, pointed out that I was entitled to disability accommodations (in a respectful way), but was flat out denied. No reasoning or options for readmission in the future.

Everyone I've talked to said that this is very extreme, especially considering multiple people at my school have been allowed to repeat M1 year more than once (and they failed more classes then me AND had no legit reason besides saying their study habits were poor)

If I'm wrong in the fact that this seems unfair then let me know, but so far it seems like no one else has been dismissed without any chance at all to remediate or retake, especially with documented disbailities??
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No LoA or anything? If you have serious, provable medical conditions that seems pretty bad they wouldn't give that out, depending on the situation you might have a case here.

I took LoA early on because I had some major problems to deal with and didn't want grades put in yet in case I decide to apply to a competitive residency down the line. Out of curiosity, is the school NOVA? I've heard all sorts of bad things about that place.
 
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