Is My Practice Building Too Slowly?

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Subtracterall XR

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Hi All, I recently started a new job, 75% outpatient and 25% inpatient. Hospital-based employed, mostly private insurance. It’s in an area with poor psychiatry access and a relatively large catchment area (rural).

I’ve been on the job six months and seem to be building slowly, and I’m hoping to have a reality check from those who have more experience starting up a new panel of patients.

I’ve been working six months, and my days are mostly 10-12 patients (3 new, the rest follow ups), with maybe 20% extra-slow days of 5-7 patients.

Our schedulers are great, and they really curate referrals, only accepting ones which seem appropriate for the clinic’s level of resources. The referral quality is high, but that’s one potential bottle-neck, I suppose.

Based on external data points, I’m pretty middle-of-the-road in my prescribing habits, and I am known to be friendly and approachable. New evaluation patients do tend to keep coming to see me (in other words, I don’t think my personality is slowing things down by causing attrition…).

To the more-established outpatient psychiatrists here—should I just relax? Or should I start to be pro-active in accepting more referrals, etc.? I’ve never worked on production before, and I want to cover my bases well in advance of switching to RVU-based compensation.

Thanks for any thoughts!
 
I would relax. And track rvus. If you’re not producing enough yet most places will keep you on salary longer (assuming there was a scheduled switch off salary guarantee after 1 year for example). There is a neurologist I work with who somewhat underproduces and they’ve kept her on salary for 8 years because she’s good and everyone likes her.
 
I'm not an outpatient person but three intakes per day sounds like it would fill up a practice quickly. You also mentioned this is a 3/4 time practice and you already have 3 intakes + 7-9 follow-ups. I presume that hits 6 or so hours of work per day already. What type of volume are you aiming for?

Also if you have that many intakes and good patient retention but a relatively low follow-up frequency, should you consider seeing established patients more often?
 
I'm not an outpatient person but three intakes per day sounds like it would fill up a practice quickly. You also mentioned this is a 3/4 time practice and you already have 3 intakes + 7-9 follow-ups. I presume that hits 6 or so hours of work per day already. What type of volume are you aiming for?

Also if you have that many intakes and good patient retention but a relatively low follow-up frequency, should you consider seeing established patients more often?
Thank you, that’s a very good point. I do try to be mindful of patients needing time off from work, having to drive long distances (in our area), etc. So if it seems safe and reasonable for their care, I am often willing to extend the interval a little bit. This could be a factor I had not considered.

I am hoping for about 16 follow-ups per day. I think I can do good work for the patients and hit the RVU target at that pace.
 
Thank you, that’s a very good point. I do try to be mindful of patients needing time off from work, having to drive long distances (in our area), etc. So if it seems safe and reasonable for their care, I am often willing to extend the interval a little bit. This could be a factor I had not considered.

I am hoping for about 16 follow-ups per day. I think I can do good work for the patients and hit the RVU target at that pace.
How far out are you setting average followup appointments. If I'm seeing someone and starting a new med and or making adjustments, once a month is pretty reasonable. Maybe every 6 weeks. The few patients who get spaced out 2-3 months (usually based on cost and travel) just take forever to see improvement.
 
How far out are you setting average followup appointments. If I'm seeing someone and starting a new med and or making adjustments, once a month is pretty reasonable. Maybe every 6 weeks. The few patients who get spaced out 2-3 months (usually based on cost and travel) just take forever to see improvement.
Usually once a month, or sometimes even more frequently in the very beginning (if complex, decompensating, or requiring a lot of titration), and then 8 weeks for people who are stabilizing but not quite there, and then 12 weeks for people who are doing well, with a caveat to call and come in sooner if worsening of symptoms (and many do take me up on that). I think I am pretty average in my follow-up scheduling, based on observation of my peers.
 
Usually once a month, or sometimes even more frequently in the very beginning (if complex, decompensating, or requiring a lot of titration), and then 8 weeks for people who are stabilizing but not quite there, and then 12 weeks for people who are doing well, with a caveat to call and come in sooner if worsening of symptoms (and many do take me up on that). I think I am pretty average in my follow-up scheduling, based on observation of my peers.
sounds very reasonable
 
Thank you, that’s a very good point. I do try to be mindful of patients needing time off from work, having to drive long distances (in our area), etc. So if it seems safe and reasonable for their care, I am often willing to extend the interval a little bit. This could be a factor I had not considered.

I am hoping for about 16 follow-ups per day. I think I can do good work for the patients and hit the RVU target at that pace.

10-12 patients a day by 6 months seems pretty solid to me, especially since you’re only 3/4 outpatient time. Especially because you’re not being particularly aggressive about marketing, sounds like you’re just picking up a lot of referrals from patients within the hospital system and not taking everything that walks in the door. 16 patients a day would probably be on the upper end of what a lot of people do in full time outpatient.
 
Resident here. Just out of curiosity, how does the 25% inpatient time work in your set up? Covering weekends/call, or do you have certain weeks blocked for inpatient, or go round in the morning sometimes?
 
What’s your target wRVu? Based on your current numbers you should be exceeding the RVU if billing appropriately..
 
Those numbers sound reasonable. I think 3 new patients a day is manageable – I was originally doing 4-5 when I started, which felt like too much in terms of paperwork, letter writing and general exhaustion levels. Over the years I’ve had to consciously limit this, primarily because there were issues with patients getting followup appointments. Some of my colleagues are much more selective and would only see 1-2 new appointments, but as I have 8.5 hours/day of consulting time that approach was never going to be sustainable for me.

Definitively a good sign if your patients keep coming back! Determining followup timeframes can be a bit tricky. As my patients are cash payers, having it too soon can feel like gouging, yet you have more anxious ones that want to come back earlier. Usually I will be guided by them within reason. If I'm starting a new drug I'd like to get them back between 6-12/weeks, or 3-6 months for more stable patients. Have a handful of less stable patients who I see monthly, as they can potentially deteriorate quickly requiring an admission.
 
I would relax. And track rvus. If you’re not producing enough yet most places will keep you on salary longer (assuming there was a scheduled switch off salary guarantee after 1 year for example). There is a neurologist I work with who somewhat underproduces and they’ve kept her on salary for 8 years because she’s good and everyone likes her.

How do you recommend tracking RVUs?
 
Resident here. Just out of curiosity, how does the 25% inpatient time work in your set up? Covering weekends/call, or do you have certain weeks blocked for inpatient, or go round in the morning sometimes?
I take a week a month(ish) on the unit, and the other days are 8-5 in clinic. So either all clinic or all hospital. The first year out has been a big adjustment, so I’m not in a huge rush, but once I feel like I’m able to provide high-quality care quickly, I’ll probably spend mornings on the unit and see some outpatients in the afternoon. Some people do that, and it seems to work okay.
 
Those numbers sound reasonable. I think 3 new patients a day is manageable – I was originally doing 4-5 when I started, which felt like too much in terms of paperwork, letter writing and general exhaustion levels. Over the years I’ve had to consciously limit this, primarily because there were issues with patients getting followup appointments. Some of my colleagues are much more selective and would only see 1-2 new appointments, but as I have 8.5 hours/day of consulting time that approach was never going to be sustainable for me.

Definitively a good sign if your patients keep coming back! Determining followup timeframes can be a bit tricky. As my patients are cash payers, having it too soon can feel like gouging, yet you have more anxious ones that want to come back earlier. Usually I will be guided by them within reason. If I'm starting a new drug I'd like to get them back between 6-12/weeks, or 3-6 months for more stable patients. Have a handful of less stable patients who I see monthly, as they can potentially deteriorate quickly requiring an admission.
Thanks for the feedback! Yeah, I’ve seen a few people back too often and they received a big bill…I felt awful, but at the time we were making progress, titrating meds quickly etc. If only we just had to worry about practicing medicine, huh?
 
If only!

It’s a difficult balance. When I started I went with 6 weeks, but have defaulted to 3 months after the initial assessment to allow some flexibility. Often with new patients I will give them option to call in and leave a message before that if things aren’t working out. Previously I would do this for free, incorporating that time as part of my overall consultation charge. However, with Covid and being able to get reimbursements for telehealth consults I can still provide this service at no cost to the patient and get something back from our medicare system.

My more dependent patients always want more frequent appointments, and at times I have to set limits on this especially with those who I charge a discounted rate to.
 
I'm employed and building up a panel much more slowly, but this is mostly due to poor overall practice management. I'm salaried, so am not too distressed by the rate of growth.
 
Thanks. 4700 I think? I remember thinking it was around or slightly above the median.
Ouch, I remember when it was under 3900.
Be careful you aren't in the trap that if you work full time all year you hit this, but the second you take a vacation you drop below that 4700.


Don't worry about seeing patients too close too often. If they clinically need it, great, do it. Think of the alternative costs of decompensation and a hospital admission. Seeing their outpatient doc a few visits is still cheaper.
 
Growing in a rural area can be a little bit different since you face a few additional obstacles, namely less recognition of the need for psychiatric care from patients but even maybe moreso by PCPs. I cannot begin to tell you the number of patients I have seen with years to decades of horrible impairment who have never seen a psychiatrist in the rural area I am currently at, almost all with PCPs trying to handle all of the psychiatric medication and almost assuredly without seeing any psychotherapist. I definitely recommend trying to meet as many of the local PCPs in-person as possible, putting a face to a name seems to matter more in the smaller areas than large urban places. Once more people know of you in the area, particularly if you are liked, you will see a huge boom in growth and honestly I imagine you will be turning patients away within a year or so, especially at only 75% outpatient.
 
Ouch, I remember when it was under 3900.
Be careful you aren't in the trap that if you work full time all year you hit this, but the second you take a vacation you drop below that 4700.


Don't worry about seeing patients too close too often. If they clinically need it, great, do it. Think of the alternative costs of decompensation and a hospital admission. Seeing their outpatient doc a few visits is still cheaper.

Even the cost of something like IOP is significantly more disruptive and expensive for most patients, especially with private insurance. Basically can instantly hit your deductible in a few weeks. Which is what you're hoping to avoid...when you put it like that to patients they have this "oh yeah that's true" kind of realization usually lol. So yeah, seeing patients back once every week or two until you feel they're more stable to spread out to every month or two is pretty reasonable.
 
If only!

It’s a difficult balance. When I started I went with 6 weeks, but have defaulted to 3 months after the initial assessment to allow some flexibility. Often with new patients I will give them option to call in and leave a message before that if things aren’t working out. Previously I would do this for free, incorporating that time as part of my overall consultation charge. However, with Covid and being able to get reimbursements for telehealth consults I can still provide this service at no cost to the patient and get something back from our medicare system.

My more dependent patients always want more frequent appointments, and at times I have to set limits on this especially with those who I charge a discounted rate to.

3 months after an initial visit, especially if you're starting meds, is a pretty long time. I do think 4 weeks is pretty standard for something like an SSRI/SNRI/atypical antidepressant (although I'll often do a 2 week appointment to make sure the patient is tolerating it okay and didn't discontinue it because of side effects or something), sooner than that for sure for something like a stimulant/antipsychotic/mood stabilizer or even for like a TCA because of the side effect profile. I mean what if you're on a suboptimal dose and now the patient had to wait 3 months for a dose titration? Pretty rough. There's also so many patients who randomly stop a med in the first couple weeks or never pick it up because there's some problem and totally forget to tell you unless you schedule a followup with them.
 
3 months after an initial visit, especially if you're starting meds, is a pretty long time. I do think 4 weeks is pretty standard for something like an SSRI/SNRI/atypical antidepressant (although I'll often do a 2 week appointment to make sure the patient is tolerating it okay and didn't discontinue it because of side effects or something), sooner than that for sure for something like a stimulant/antipsychotic/mood stabilizer or even for like a TCA because of the side effect profile. I mean what if you're on a suboptimal dose and now the patient had to wait 3 months for a dose titration? Pretty rough. There's also so many patients who randomly stop a med in the first couple weeks or never pick it up because there's some problem and totally forget to tell you unless you schedule a followup with them.
that's the worst when someone stops fluoxetine after a week due to side effects or "it wasn't working" and you don't find out until they come in 3 months later.
 
Yeah, three months for a return visit after the intake seems like a very long wait. This is especially true if the patient is not fully stable on their current regimen. Until someone is stable, I also see nothing wrong with 1-4 visits per month depending on acuity (presuming they can make it). As others have mentioned this can avoid escalation of care, which ultimately is a win for everyone involved.
 
Mind expanding on why you do that?

Sure. There are a lot of variables, but it ultimately depends on the patient. Consultation price is certainly a factor, and I know I was getting more non-attendances when I had asked patients to book for earlier reviews. For context, in our public outpatient system where the most severe patients (clozapine, involuntary treated etc) are managed, they are only seen by consultant psychiatrists every 3 months, and most of the care is by trainee doctors - who only review them on a monthly basis. When patients get into crisis, there are teams that can see them daily - or organise admissions if required. As a private practitioner we can also refer patients to said teams if needed but for the most part our patients tend to be higher functioning and have better social supports.

As I already noted it was much easier for me to offer a phone consult in-between appointments adjust doses or change medications. They leave a message with reception – if for instance things are really bad with side effects sometimes I will get a call after a couple of days, other times it’s within a few weeks and sometimes patients don’t even take up that offer. If they have an issue and don’t call, then I assume they were never going to come in earlier in any case. Either way, if I have to it’s easy enough for me to send out a different script which mitigates the need to book immediate followup.

As all my referrals come from GPs or other psychiatrists, I am often switching antidepressants – and these decisions will depend on the current dose, patient’s level of anxiety and previous experience with side effects. I usually offer a cross titration protocol, but some patients prefer a really slow reduction and want to come off their medication completely before starting something new, so it may take anywhere from a month to come off an antidepressant, then allowing a week washout period before commencing something new. Then if I get them back at 6 weeks, they've only been on the new medicine for a week - so too early to be of much clinical use.

On specific conditions - for depression and anxiety, not all patients are keen to start medications immediately (they might want to discuss with family, give therapy another go etc), so it might be a 2-3 weeks before they start anything. Then at 6 weeks there hasn’t been enough time to gauge whether it’s effective or not and 2-3 months is often more suitable. There’s also the issue of expectations – someone starting an antidepressant isn’t necessarily going to experience substantial improvements within the first few weeks, and longer for anxiety conditions.

If it’s an ADHD patient with no major risks, then 3 months to trial a stimulant is fine. If it’s someone who’s been stable on it long term (perhaps their psych is retiring) and there’s documentation to support that, then continuing for 6 months may be possible. For higher risk patients eg. new bipolar patients who are manic and starting on lithium I’m usually treating them quite aggressively and seeing them again in 3-6 weeks at the very latest.
3 months after an initial visit, especially if you're starting meds, is a pretty long time. I do think 4 weeks is pretty standard for something like an SSRI/SNRI/atypical antidepressant (although I'll often do a 2 week appointment to make sure the patient is tolerating it okay and didn't discontinue it because of side effects or something), sooner than that for sure for something like a stimulant/antipsychotic/mood stabilizer or even for like a TCA because of the side effect profile. I mean what if you're on a suboptimal dose and now the patient had to wait 3 months for a dose titration? Pretty rough. There's also so many patients who randomly stop a med in the first couple weeks or never pick it up because there's some problem and totally forget to tell you unless you schedule a followup with them.

I suppose I try not to prescribe suboptimal doses? Not to be facetious, but let's say I start someone on Lexapro and they're antidepressant naive. I'd start them on 5mg for a week, then increase the dose to 10mg if tolerated. If they get unusual side effects immediately at 5mg, I can encourage them to stick with it, but sometimes they do so there's no real point persisting or trying to increase the dose. In this case I can send out an alternative script to their pharmacy or they can pick it up from my rooms. I don't charge for this, as part of me feels like I am responsible if the drug I prescribe hasn't worked, so it seems unfair to penalise them financially in this instance. On the otherhand, if they report that they've been on 10mg for a few weeks and there's still no improvement and no side effects, it's a simple enough matter to advise them to go to 15mg over the phone.

Yeah, three months for a return visit after the intake seems like a very long wait. This is especially true if the patient is not fully stable on their current regimen. Until someone is stable, I also see nothing wrong with 1-4 visits per month depending on acuity (presuming they can make it). As others have mentioned this can avoid escalation of care, which ultimately is a win for everyone involved.

I agree with more frequent visits based on clinical acuity, although for a long time I simply haven't had the appointment capacity to fit these kinds of patients in. If I do have see a patient that frequently, it's more likely I'm going to be trying to organise an admission and managing them as an inpatient. For example, I have one bipolar patient who I normally see monthly - but when she's starting to decline I'll start getting messages every few days - eg. not sleeping as well, more flighty at work, heightened senses etc. While we can do some med changes, I know this is one patient who can deteriorate very rapidly - thankfully it's happened less so in recent years, but the inpatient option is always at the back of my mind.
 
If it’s an ADHD patient with no major risks, then 3 months to trial a stimulant is fine. If it’s someone who’s been stable on it long term (perhaps their psych is retiring) and there’s documentation to support that, then continuing for 6 months may be possible. For higher risk patients eg. new bipolar patients who are manic and starting on lithium I’m usually treating them quite aggressively and seeing them again in 3-6 weeks at the very latest.


I suppose I try not to prescribe suboptimal doses? Not to be facetious, but let's say I start someone on Lexapro and they're antidepressant naive. I'd start them on 5mg for a week, then increase the dose to 10mg if tolerated. If they get unusual side effects immediately at 5mg, I can encourage them to stick with it, but sometimes they do so there's no real point persisting or trying to increase the dose. In this case I can send out an alternative script to their pharmacy or they can pick it up from my rooms. I don't charge for this, as part of me feels like I am responsible if the drug I prescribe hasn't worked, so it seems unfair to penalise them financially in this instance. On the otherhand, if they report that they've been on 10mg for a few weeks and there's still no improvement and no side effects, it's a simple enough matter to advise them to go to 15mg over the phone.

So this is probably coming from the child side, but we're pretty aggressive about titrating stimulants basically weekly or every 2 weeks if there's not a significant improvement to efficacy or intolerable side effects. If you look at the clinical trials, they're titrating them every few days/every week. 3 months is basically an entire school quarter that a kid went from Fs to Cs/Ds but could have been getting As/Bs...and again you're relying on the patient/parent to call you up and say "hey I don't think this is working that well".

Also for things like atypical antipsychotics, metabolic monitoring recommendations are for height/weight/BMI for every 4 weeks for the first 12 weeks, then every 3 months. Not that everyone does this of course....

I mean you're essentially doing appointments over the phone at that point if you're evaluating whether your medication is working, what side effects they're having etc and then deciding to increase the dose. Put em on video and you might as well bill for an appointment. I suppose it might be different in Australia. I get it though, if you're packed so full you can't fit in patients sooner than that, better they see someone.
 
someone starting an antidepressant isn’t necessarily going to experience substantial improvements within the first few weeks, and longer for anxiety conditions.
Makes sense based on your practice patterns. I would be doing a ton more "uncompensated" emails and phone calls if I had my pts scheduling 3 months out.

Agreed there will be no substantial improvement for most that soon but I came across some decent papers lately about how there's a low probability of getting any substantial benefit if there's been no notable onset at all by 4 weeks. So I usually tell my pts to let me know if they feel the med has done absolutely nothing at 4 weeks so that we can look at either a dose increase or med change.
 
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