Is the application process dishonest?

[Engineerdad]

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I am the parent of an applicant who is applying for the 2nd time and I'm a bit puzzled by the duplicity of the process. My son graduated Magna Cum Laude, Honors college, with a 3.77 GPA in Biomedical Engineering. He took the DAT in 2017 and scored AA – 25, TS – 25, PAT – 21, QR – 25, RC – 24, BI – 23, GC – 26, OC – 26. He has 292 hours of shadowing various dental specialists, performed both medical and dental internships and volunteers 1 - 2 days/week at our local community food bank. He also completed a research mentorship (106 hours) in the UNC periodontal department studying the IL-37 gene while attending the NC school of science and mathematics. I may be biased, but he is a great kid and I think a pretty strong candidate. The first cycle he only applied to the 2 NC schools and while he got 2 interviews, he did not get accepted. He was told to get more shadowing hours, which he has since done. After graduation, he got certifications in CPR, airborne & bloodborne pathogens, biological hazards & safety and first aid and did another dental internship in CA and was a team leader for the LA care harbor dental event in October as well as the NC missions of mercy event in August. This cycle he applied to 10 schools in July, interviewed at 2 (UNC, Maryland) and to date is currently waitlisted at UNC, was rejected from KY and GA and has heard nothing from the others (including ECU which only takes NC residents). As a retired professional engineer, I am a bit shocked at how dental applicants are treated; I have interviewed hundreds of engineers and always given them honest timely feedback. My concern is that my son is foregoing other more viable career opportunities in biomedical engineering and wasting his time and resources working part time and volunteering like crazy on the hope that a slot opens up. His engineering degree has a short shelf life without applicable work experience in the field and these schools are doing him no favors by stringing him along if they do not intend to enroll him.

 

[macsak]

I am the parent of an applicant who is applying for the 2nd time and I'm a bit puzzled by the duplicity of the process. My son graduated Magna Cum Laude, Honors college, with a 3.77 GPA in Biomedical Engineering. He took the DAT in 2017 and scored AA – 25, TS – 25, PAT – 21, QR – 25, RC – 24, BI – 23, GC – 26, OC – 26. He has 292 hours of shadowing various dental specialists, performed both medical and dental internships and volunteers 1 - 2 days/week at our local community food bank. He also completed a research mentorship (106 hours) in the UNC periodontal department studying the IL-37 gene while attending the NC school of science and mathematics. I may be biased, but he is a great kid and I think a pretty strong candidate. The first cycle he only applied to the 2 NC schools and while he got 2 interviews, he did not get accepted. He was told to get more shadowing hours, which he has since done. After graduation, he got certifications in CPR, airborne & bloodborne pathogens, biological hazards & safety and first aid and did another dental internship in CA and was a team leader for the LA care harbor dental event in October as well as the NC missions of mercy event in August. This cycle he applied to 10 schools in July, interviewed at 2 (UNC, Maryland) and to date is currently waitlisted at UNC, was rejected from KY and GA and has heard nothing from the others (including ECU which only takes NC residents). As a retired professional engineer, I am a bit shocked at how dental applicants are treated; I have interviewed hundreds of engineers and always given them honest timely feedback. My concern is that my son is foregoing other more viable career opportunities in biomedical engineering and wasting his time and resources working part time and volunteering like crazy on the hope that a slot opens up. His engineering degree has a short shelf life without applicable work experience in the field and these schools are doing him no favors by stringing him along if they do not intend to enroll him.

uhhhhh
no

he still has a shot for interviews and acceptances...

 

[Firik]

Sorry about your son's experience.
Saying he needs more shadowing hours is absurd. People with his stats and 100 shadowing hours do get in. Another word, they did not give honest feedback. There is something I guess they cannot disclose.
Did you give insights on how to improve his interview skills?
Is he well-rounded person with extracurriculars outside of school?
Did he improve his essays and interview skills since the first cycle?
Best of luck to get in into UNC!

 

[DSchoolorBust202X]

I am the parent of an applicant who is applying for the 2nd time and I'm a bit puzzled by the duplicity of the process. My son graduated Magna Cum Laude, Honors college, with a 3.77 GPA in Biomedical Engineering. He took the DAT in 2017 and scored AA – 25, TS – 25, PAT – 21, QR – 25, RC – 24, BI – 23, GC – 26, OC – 26. He has 292 hours of shadowing various dental specialists, performed both medical and dental internships and volunteers 1 - 2 days/week at our local community food bank. He also completed a research mentorship (106 hours) in the UNC periodontal department studying the IL-37 gene while attending the NC school of science and mathematics. I may be biased, but he is a great kid and I think a pretty strong candidate. The first cycle he only applied to the 2 NC schools and while he got 2 interviews, he did not get accepted. He was told to get more shadowing hours, which he has since done. After graduation, he got certifications in CPR, airborne & bloodborne pathogens, biological hazards & safety and first aid and did another dental internship in CA and was a team leader for the LA care harbor dental event in October as well as the NC missions of mercy event in August. This cycle he applied to 10 schools in July, interviewed at 2 (UNC, Maryland) and to date is currently waitlisted at UNC, was rejected from KY and GA and has heard nothing from the others (including ECU which only takes NC residents). As a retired professional engineer, I am a bit shocked at how dental applicants are treated; I have interviewed hundreds of engineers and always given them honest timely feedback. My concern is that my son is foregoing other more viable career opportunities in biomedical engineering and wasting his time and resources working part time and volunteering like crazy on the hope that a slot opens up. His engineering degree has a short shelf life without applicable work experience in the field and these schools are doing him no favors by stringing him along if they do not intend to enroll him.

One of the things I can think of is this - did he have a compelling personal statement of 'why dentistry?' That and time of submission of application are huge, and as a biomedical engineering grad myself, I know we engineers tend to be a little stereotypically socially awkward and emotionally closed off. If he submitted everything later than August/September, I'd say he'd have to be patient for interviews to come.

But to answer your question, I myself have not found the application process to be dishonest. I have reached out to schools, followed their advice, and had some good results with that. It is not uncommon for people to have to reapply, and it's good that he applied to more than two schools the second time. If he really wants this and can talk eloquently about why, then it will happen.

 

[AppalachianDentalBoy]

Your son needs to be the one who is worrying and not you. He needs to call the schools he has been rejected from and ask how he can improve his app then do it. Re write better essays and practice interviewing more.

 

[princeafrica]

Would you mind mentioning which 10 schools he applied to?

The first time he applied I’ll say he kind of shot himself in the leg because those 2 schools are very competitive and limiting himself to those two wasn’t a good idea.

But I do find it odd that he didn’t get more interviews this cycle whilst applying to 10 schools. My opinion is going to sound ignorant since I don’t know everything in his application but I would guess his personal statement may not have been strong?

 

[okiedokeartichoke]

He sounds pretty good on paper. Although his stats are high and his experiences in research and dental experience is great, there are other factors that could go into an acceptance.

• When did he apply? Applying early is key.
• Where did he apply? Maybe the list of schools he has chosen are too competitive to get into, or maybe he didn't research the requirements too closely.
• How was his personal statement? Was it grammatically well written, convincing, and does it exude some sort of passion for the field?
• How are his interview and people/soft skills?
• Did he follow-up with the schools he interviewed at?

Just some things to consider. I was a reapplicant also and got in the second time. You may have interviewed hundreds of engineers over time, but I'm sure dental admissions have to sift through thousands at once. I do believe sometimes this process is a crap shoot, and I know how expensive this process can be (especially doing it twice). But your son could still hear back from schools later for post-December interviews and offers. Hang in there 🙂

 

[DentTreadOnMe]

I truly have a lot of sympathy for your son. His application seems like one of the strongest around. Statistically he is in the top 1% of DAT scores and above average for accepted GPAs. I haven't applied more than once, but I am shocked at how he only got 2 interviews out of 10 this cycle.

From my time interviewing, I am of the opinion that the process isn't "dishonest" per se, it's just extremely biased with elements of chance thrown in. For example, the schools say that the interview is just to see if you are a good "fit" for the programs and to just "be yourself," but then the interview statistics from most schools show that only 10-50% of interviewees actually get accepted. There is no way on earth that 50-90% of those other dental applicants aren't "good fits" for the schools. Dental applicants are some of the most outgoing, personable, caring people I have ever met. In the 7 interviews I had, I only met 1 or 2 people that I would consider socially or personably unfit for a dental class, basically just because they annoyed me lol.

Dental schools are actively looking for certain things and it's hard to say exactly what those things are because the interviewers are biased. These are no "government-style" interviews where each candidate gets the same exact questions and time to answer them... Sometimes it might be who impresses them the most in the interview room, and sometimes their minds may be made up before hand. I had a one-on-one interview where the guy came in and essentially TALKED AT ME for almost an hour. I didn't get to say hardly anything! I have not heard back from this school regarding acceptance and I assume I'm rejected... hence I think there is a LOT of bias in the process. It's not necessarily the best applicants, it's who they like a lot of times... 🙁

But to me, it looks like your son's case is odd. It's not that he's getting lots of interviews with few acceptances, he's not getting any interviews with his on-paper appearance. This is SO weird to me because he's such a strong applicant. As was said before by DSchoolorBust, the ONLY thing I can think of is that his personal statement isn't convincing enough to merit an interview, but even then, I can't fathom how a dental school would deny him an interview with his credentials. You and him have a right to be upset about this.

 

[Biodentist]

First of all, it’s a bit odd that you are here posting on behalf of your son. If he truly wanted to become a dentist, then he would seek out advice himself rather than relying on you to do it for him. There aren’t any issues with the he the numbers, your son has done his part there. However, the interview or personal statement is where he might be having trouble.

I spoke to a dental admissions rep who spoke at my school and he said countless 4.0GPA/20+ DAT student said have been denied because they think they can get into dental school “just because”. They have no real reason for becoming a dentist and think because of their perfect stats, they don’t have to show any interest. A dental school would much rather offer admissions to the 3.5/19 DAT applicant than the 4.0/22 applicant if they noticed the 3.5 student showed serious interest in becoming a dentist. They want to makes sure you stay at the school so they can get tuition money, they don’t want the perfect student to realize he wants to do cardiothoracic surgery and leave dental school.

Talk to your son about why he wants to be a dentist and make him seek out advice rather than doing it for him. Chances are the issues are in interviews or the personal statement.

 

[Engineerdad]

I appreciate the feedback and realize that my choice of words (dishonest) are definitely provocative and a bit over the top. He applied in mid July and his personal statement / essay was obviously not what they were looking for, but I am quite sure he was honest in his answers. Although he is an engineer and we are infamously bad at articulating non technical ideas, I know he wrote it while doing an internship in CA and had the dentist review it. He applied to UCLA, UNC, ECU, Maryland, GA, KY, Meharry, Marquette, VCU, ALB, and Harvard. I am wondering if the fact that he didn't get in the first time hasn't sunk his chances. I had advised him to apply to more schools, but he is very independent and really wants to attend either UNC or ECU. At this point I cannot see how more hours or retaking the DAT will improve his chances, I just wish the schools would be honest with him about his perceived weaknesses.

 

[lwergod]

yield protection. The best thing he can do to really prove that he is set on dentistry, is to continue volunteering in dental related fields. Unfortunately, dental schools are not crazy about stats as much as you'd like to think They love them cookie cutter EC's

 

[zToothinator]

While the application process is slow, I would say that it's fairly similar to medical and pharmacy school. Schools receive thousands of applications so it's difficult for them to fully know who to accept and reject when they're still planning to interview some students all the way through April. While we all would like to have a response back ASAP, no news is good news since I'm sure many people would rather hear nothing and still have a chance rather than being rejected in December.

As for your son's application this year, while he has the stats, my guess is something is off with his personal statement, the way he described his extracurriculars in AADSAS, or the letters of recommendation he submitted. For his personal statement, if he needs to apply next cycle, I'd recommend having more people familiar with dentistry read it. If he doesn't have other people to read it, there's a list on SDN (~*~*~*~*~Official Pre-Dental Personal Statement Reader List 2018-2019~*~*~*~*~). Some readers may also be willing to review his extracurriculars section on AADSAS to make sure there are no red flags.

 

[futuredentist0023]

How do you think his interview skills are?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Blueshirts]

I appreciate the feedback and realize that my choice of words (dishonest) are definitely provocative and a bit over the top. He applied in mid July and his personal statement / essay was obviously not what they were looking for, but I am quite sure he was honest in his answers. Although he is an engineer and we are infamously bad at articulating non technical ideas, I know he wrote it while doing an internship in CA and had the dentist review it. He applied to UCLA, UNC, ECU, Maryland, GA, KY, Meharry, Marquette, VCU, ALB, and Harvard. I am wondering if the fact that he didn't get in the first time hasn't sunk his chances. I had advised him to apply to more schools, but he is very independent and really wants to attend either UNC or ECU. At this point I cannot see how more hours or retaking the DAT will improve his chances, I just wish the schools would be honest with him about his perceived weaknesses.

Aside from Marquette, most of these schools favor students who are in state. The statistics are easily accessible online through a Google search. This could additionally be somewhat of a factor.

 

[princeafrica]

Aside from Marquette, most of these schools favor students who are in state. The statistics are easily accessible online through a Google search. This could additionally be somewhat of a factor.

Marquette has a preference for some states. I don’t remember which though

 

[Gordo014]

Yeah, much like others have said, on paper he sounds like a great candidate, which leads me to believe the lack of interviews and acceptances have something to do with his personal statement/interview skills (although it's just conjecture). Like someone else said, the in-state preference most of the schools he applied to have also play a pretty big part imo.

To answer your question though, I don't think it's dishonest, just a bit of a crapshoot - there are so many factors at play.

Edit: I'd also be curious how many of his hours were spent shadowing a general dentist? I know a big sticking point for most schools is that while wanting to specialize is fine, applicants should also be perfectly happy with being a general dentist as those residency spots are far from guaranteed.

 

[doc toothache]

I am the parent of an applicant who is applying for the 2nd time and I'm a bit puzzled by the duplicity of the process. My son graduated Magna Cum Laude, Honors college, with a 3.77 GPA in Biomedical Engineering. He took the DAT in 2017 and scored AA – 25, TS – 25, PAT – 21, QR – 25, RC – 24, BI – 23, GC – 26, OC – 26. He has 292 hours of shadowing various dental specialists, performed both medical and dental internships and volunteers 1 - 2 days/week at our local community food bank. He also completed a research mentorship (106 hours) in the UNC periodontal department studying the IL-37 gene while attending the NC school of science and mathematics. I may be biased, but he is a great kid and I think a pretty strong candidate. The first cycle he only applied to the 2 NC schools and while he got 2 interviews, he did not get accepted. He was told to get more shadowing hours, which he has since done. After graduation, he got certifications in CPR, airborne & bloodborne pathogens, biological hazards & safety and first aid and did another dental internship in CA and was a team leader for the LA care harbor dental event in October as well as the NC missions of mercy event in August. This cycle he applied to 10 schools in July, interviewed at 2 (UNC, Maryland) and to date is currently waitlisted at UNC, was rejected from KY and GA and has heard nothing from the others (including ECU which only takes NC residents). As a retired professional engineer, I am a bit shocked at how dental applicants are treated; I have interviewed hundreds of engineers and always given them honest timely feedback. My concern is that my son is foregoing other more viable career opportunities in biomedical engineering and wasting his time and resources working part time and volunteering like crazy on the hope that a slot opens up. His engineering degree has a short shelf life without applicable work experience in the field and these schools are doing him no favors by stringing him along if they do not intend to enroll him.

Rejections-The Why Part II
Chance Me-A Statistical Perspective

 

[TheWholeTooth99]

Agree with most of the above. Stats/volunteering/shadowing are more than okay in his case, but dental schools are looking more and more holistically at candidates. They don't only want to see good stats/volunteering/shadowing or applicants who are checking off all of the things that people generally think dental applicants should have. What are his interests outside of those things? Does he have hobbies or other things he does for fun that would be good to mention? Interviews are looking for people who give honest answers that don't seem rehearsed, seem personable/have good social skills, and can give thoughtful answers of course (actually answering the questions asked - a lot of people ramble and never answer the question given). In my opinion, they are looking for passion first and foremost in regards to personal statements. What makes him passionate about becoming a dentist? That is the most important thing to convey. While the application process does seem pretty mystifying at times, admissions offices are generally very good about giving rejected applicants some tips about what they can do to strengthen their application for that specific school. It happens all of the time. Good luck to your son!

 

[predent2151]

For ECU, our schools mission is centered around giving back to the citizens of NC and serving the underserved. If for some reason he gave the impression that he didn’t want to stay in the state or that he wasn’t interested in providing care for those that are underprivileged that would be a red flag. GA, KY, ALA, are all EXTREMELY competitive OOS and VCU and Maryland are no cakewalk either. Maybe tell him to make sure he’s conveying why he wants to be a dentist in his PS and apply to schools who more commonly take OOS applicants.

 

[Frychicken]

It’s definitely an imperfect system and there is some luck involved. If acceptances were handed out solely based on stats and CV alone, there really wouldn’t be a need for interviews.

Best of luck.

 

[coldicecream]

he should try applying to more OOS friendly schools like Louisville and Colorado. maybe even some private schools

 

[setdoc7]

yield protection. The best thing he can do to really prove that he is set on dentistry, is to continue volunteering in dental related fields. Unfortunately, dental schools are not crazy about stats as much as you'd like to think They love them cookie cutter EC's

I beg to differ, IMHO. I have been at numerous meetings where the academic dean of some D school touts the average sGPA and DAT scores of the last incoming class, as if that somehow means the school is perfect. Yet that IS what is most important to them. This again is a scroll down of too little information, conjecture, and urban legend from a group who really do not have the slightest idea if they are right or wrong about what they are expounding on. To the OP, as a father, I understand your concern. I too was concerned when one of my children was applying to graduate school. Dental admissions is tricky, as NO ONE other than administration knows the school agenda. I do agree that your son should contact all of the schools he has been rejected from and press for how to improve the application. If a common thread appears, you have your answer.

 

[HatInTheCat]

Personality, perhaps?

The stats get you in the door, but the personality carries you the rest of the way.

 

[PhansterZ]

The application process is very tricky in that you do not know what each admissions committee desires. I have worked in the admissions committee when I was a senior in dental school and have interviewed applicants in the past. From the stats, he is very qualified, but the interview process is made to weed out people or personalities that do not fit with the school's agenda. I suggest your son reaching out to the admissions committee and requesting feedback. The worst thing you can do is calling on behalf of your son and doing it because it shows the lack of maturity on his part, or showing that you are sheltering him from difficult conversations that he should be having, and not you. As stated above, does he interview well? What type of answers is he giving? The generic answers that interviewees give of why they want to become a dentist, that was scripted beforehand and memorized verbatim? or was it the type of genuine answer that would make them actually believe you.

Dental schools are competitive, and they have more than enough applicants to fill a class, and they don't need your son to succeed. In fact, they know they are in a position of power, and your son needs them way more than they need him. So come to the interview and act like they want the spot, and not act like he deserves it. Again, I'm not saying this is what he did, I'm just telling you the attitude that he should have when he interviews.

Also, being picky when you're not getting many interviews is also one of the reasons he hasn't gotten in yet. Apply to more programs, and the ones that accept many out of state students if he is okay with the debt. Weigh out and pros and cons and see if dentistry is worth it for him, even if he has to go out of state and/or pay an enormous amount of tuition for it. I'm sure he will get in eventually if he keeps on applying, I had friends in my dental school class that applied for dental school 4+ times before getting in. He has the stats, so now let's work on the other portions of applications as mentioned above. Extracurriculars? Volunteering? Interviewing/ personality? Even if he is not a personable person, I'm sure he can be charismatic for an interview day.

Last, don't blame his possible missed career as an engineer on him trying to get into dental school. The world doesn't owe him anything.

Good luck to him.

 

[GoToHolmes]

It 100% has to be the interview, personal statement, LoR, or all of the above. Schools don't think your son is mature or committed enough.

Oh, and maybe timing. Applying early is KEY

Interesting that you are posting here rather than your son. Why is that?