Is the MSAR useful for GPA if I took an SMP?

[IlyaR]

I'm using it for OOS % and MCAT, but can't see how I could use it for GPA, as my undergrad is lower than 10% everywhere, and my SMP is a 4.0. I've had help with my school list from people on here (Thanks Goro!) but would like to get another 5 or so schools for a total of 30.

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[Goro]

Nope, MSAR isn't useful for non-trads...I go by posts made by SDNers, and generally advise to target the new schools, your state schools, and the lower tier schools.

 

[ChrisMack390]

@gonnif do you really think upward trend is weighted that heavily?

My cGPAs are roughly 3.0 and 2.9 freshman and sophomore years, but then 3.8 and 3.99 junior and senior years. Coupled with a 3.99 in graduate school and a strong MCAT I am hoping some schools are willing to look beyond my atrocious start...

 

[IlyaR]

@gonnif do you really think upward trend is weighted that heavily?

My cGPAs are roughly 3.0 and 2.9 freshman and sophomore years, but then 3.8 and 3.99 junior and senior years. Coupled with a 3.99 in graduate school and a strong MCAT I am hoping some schools are willing to look beyond my atrocious start...

Welcome to the party! Haha

 

[gyngyn]

If you had that large and consistent upward trend of 3.8 - 4.0 work for junior senior and SMP, I would suggest for purposes of selecting schools, ignore freshman and sophomore. You should be reaching much higher than your overall GPA would indicate. What is your MCAT?

@Goro @gyngyn I would like to hear the wise counsel of my learned colleagues on this matter

It will really depend on the school's institutional values.
Even if convinced that the individual has redeemed their academics, the hit to the aggregate gpa will still need to be considered.
There are many places where the perceived benefit of the individual would have to be very high to offset the "blemish" of their effect on the hive gpa. A veteran, for instance, might be considered in this situation at some schools, but not a "late bloomer." At other places late bloomers are bread and butter.

 

[ChrisMack390]

If you had that large and consistent upward trend of 3.8 - 4.0 work for junior senior and SMP, I would suggest for purposes of selecting schools, ignore freshman and sophomore. You should be reaching much higher than your overall GPA would indicate. What is your MCAT?

@Goro @gyngyn I would like to hear the wise counsel of my learned colleagues on this matter

MCAT to be determined, but I am aware it needs to be 80%+

 

[Goro]

Many med schools place more emphasis on the last two years than the first two. Reinvention is indeed rewarded.

If you had that large and consistent upward trend of 3.8 - 4.0 work for junior senior and SMP, I would suggest for purposes of selecting schools, ignore freshman and sophomore. You should be reaching much higher than your overall GPA would indicate. What is your MCAT?

@Goro @gyngyn I would like to hear the wise counsel of my learned colleagues on this matter

 

[ZedsDed]

@gonnif do you really think upward trend is weighted that heavily?

My cGPAs are roughly 3.0 and 2.9 freshman and sophomore years, but then 3.8 and 3.99 junior and senior years. Coupled with a 3.99 in graduate school and a strong MCAT I am hoping some schools are willing to look beyond my atrocious start...

continued undergrad work =/= SMP

 

[GrapesofRath]

A 2.9 underclass gpa combined with s 3.9 upperclass gpa averages out to a 3.4 and maybe a it higher if one takes more credits in their latter years. This isn't exactly a case of someone graduating with a 2.9 and then having a strong SMP; heck a strong argument could be made an SMP might not have even been needed for the OP

A 4.0 SMP Has gotten many people into med school with 3.0 undergrad caliber gpas. A 3.4 with an upward trend is a completely different ball game than evn e that. This thread has a lot of good info and that's great info on the part of @gyngyn about how your gpa will be perceived differently but if the Op can obtain an MCAT in the 85th-95th percentile middle tier med schools are worth applying to

 

[ChrisMack390]

A clarification: I did not do an SMP. I began a masters in biology with the intention of pursuing a career in research before my job in clinical research helped me realize how much more fulfilling I find patient care. I decided to stick with the masters because 1) dropping out would look terrible; 2) even though it is grad work, its still evidence of academic success (and I'm going to apply to all of the schools that DO care about grad work), and 3) more knowledge about biology certainly cannot hurt.

@gonnif I completely agree with your strategy. I currently have a list of ~40 schools that range from my 5 favorite DO programs at the bottom to my 5 reach/dream but not incredibly unrealistic schools at the top. Depending on where my MCAT lands I will decide which ~20-25 to apply to.

 

[GrapesofRath]

A clarification: I did not do an SMP. I began a masters in biology with the intention of pursuing a career in research before my job in clinical research helped me realize how much more fulfilling I find patient care. I decided to stick with the masters because 1) dropping out would look terrible; 2) even though it is grad work, its still evidence of academic success (and I'm going to apply to all of the schools that DO care about grad work), and 3) more knowledge about biology certainly cannot hurt.

@gonnif I completely agree with your strategy. I currently have a list of ~40 schools that range from my 5 favorite DO programs at the bottom to my 5 reach/dream but not incredibly unrealistic schools at the top. Depending on where my MCAT lands I will decide which ~20-25 to apply to.

That definitely changes how your application is looked upon. A 4.0 SMP wouldn't have just shown you can handle med school; it would show you can do really well in it. But anyway, the use of a strong grad program performance is a topic of debate and look through my recent history you can see the thread I had with a @gonnif about it a couple days ago but by and large if you were to do a 1 sentence generalizaton about it doesn't have a big impacts and doesnt help a lot on proving you can handle med school rigor. Some schools it will help, I know VCU explicitly states they recommend it for low gpa, but more times than not the impact is not significant to help in overcoming a mediocre academic undergrad performance

Now a 3.4 gpa with a strong upward trend can still get you into medical school, but the MCAT is everything here. Before I said 85th-95th percentile should be your target. that's not the case now; you really should gun for a 34+ equivalent.

40 schools is too much in your case. Your goal is to get into A med school not gun for a higher tier one with a 3.4 even if you get a 35-38 equivalent on the new MCAT. You can realistically cut down your list to about 20-25 MDs and about a dozen DOs(and even less than that). If you want help with a list there are many here who can help with that and I can try ax well. But first things first you really need a strong MCAT and then you can start talking about reaching as high as possible like @gonnif talks about it. As a general note I'll leave with though you shouldn't significantly alter how you view your gpa when talking about MSAR data. It's worth applying to schools you are above or right at the 10th percentile gpa wise for but i don't think I would be adding .2-.4 to your gpa if it wasn't an SMP and just a traditional masters

 

[IlyaR]

A 4.0 SMP Has gotten many people into med school with 3.0 undergrad caliber gpas.

Really hope you're right about this!

 

[GrapesofRath]

Really hope you're right about this!

Well a true SMP not a masters in bio and many who got in were through linkage at those schools but yes a 4.0 SMP can give 3.0 undergrad gpas a fighting chance

 

[ChrisMack390]

That definitely changes how your application is looked upon. A 4.0 SMP wouldn't have just shown you can handle med school; it would show you can do really well in it. But anyway, the use of a strong grad program performance is a topic of debate and look through my recent history you can see the thread I had with a @gonnif about it a couple days ago but by and large if you were to do a 1 sentence generalizaton about it doesn't have a big impacts and doesnt help a lot on proving you can handle med school rigor. Some schools it will help, I know VCU explicitly states they recommend it for low gpa, but more times than not the impact is not significant to help in overcoming a mediocre academic undergrad performance

Now a 3.4 gpa with a strong upward trend can still get you into medical school, but the MCAT is everything here. Before I said 85th-95th percentile should be your target. that's not the case now; you really should gun for a 34+ equivalent.

40 schools is too much in your case. Your goal is to get into A med school not gun for a higher tier one with a 3.4 even if you get a 35-38 equivalent on the new MCAT. You can realistically cut down your list to about 20-25 MDs and about a dozen DOs(and even less than that). If you want help with a list there are many here who can help with that and I can try ax well. But first things first you really need a strong MCAT and then you can start talking about reaching as high as possible like @gonnif talks about it. As a general note I'll leave with though you shouldn't significantly alter how you view your gpa when talking about MSAR data. It's worth applying to schools you are above or right at the 10th percentile gpa wise for but i don't think I would be adding .2-.4 to your gpa if it wasn't an SMP and just a traditional masters

I am certainly not planning on applying to 40 schools. I essentially have a huge list such that I can decide which ends needs to be shaved off depending on my MCAT.

I'm a New Jersey resident, so I do have a whole bunch of state/regional schools to choose from, so that may help my cause 🙂

 

[GrapesofRath]

I am certainly not planning on applying to 40 schools. I essentially have a huge list such that I can decide which ends needs to be shaved off depending on my MCAT.

I'm a New Jersey resident, so I do have a whole bunch of state/regional schools to choose from, so that may help my cause 🙂

Good plan although your MD list is basically contingent on getting a very good MCAT score.

Yes from jersey helps. (seriously look at schools like Rutgers and other New Jersey state schools in state matriculant percentage)

 

[IlyaR]

Well a true SMP not a masters in bio and many who got in were through linkage at those schools but yes a 4.0 SMP can give 3.0 undergrad gpas a fighting chance

Yup was a true SMP. Wondering why 40 schools would be too much? I got FAP thankfully, and many (most?) schools waive secondary fees as well. I'm going to aim for ~30 as I find I need a shotgun approach at matriculation

 

[GrapesofRath]

Good plan and yes being from new jersey Helps. I'll add though it's not that there are tons of schools there it's just the ones you have take as many in

Yup was a true SMP. Wondering why 40 schools would be too much? I got FAP thankfully, and many (most?) schools waive secondary fees as well. I'm going to aim for ~30 as I find I need a shotgun approach at matriculation

Whats your undergrad gpa? That matters alot

 

[ChrisMack390]

Rutgers NJMS and RWJ both take nearly all in state, sometimes even 100% in state. Cooper takes a good chunk from NJ and my ECs should resonate well with their urban health care mission. I also grew up within an hourish of both Philly and NYC, so I could probably write a pretty convincing secondary on why I would love to be in either of them.


Anyway, very sorry to hijack this thread. I'll go away now.

 

[ChrisMack390]

^ Especially since I am doing it while working full time! That's going to be my argument in my PS anyway lol

 

[GrapesofRath]

In this case it helps, not directly with GPA but with the pattern of improving and handling work. A graduate bio degree will be a help to support that pattern.

Good to know that'll help

 

[brommanders]

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[ChrisMack390]

This is great information. I never knew an upward grade trend would make that much of a difference. I have been going by MSAR numbers but would @gonnif's suggestion work for me as well?
2.8GPA first 2 years of undergrad
3.4 Jr Yr
3.9 Sr. Yr
Liberal arts major

4.0 2 yr DIY post bacc (non-trad)
32MCAT
Hispanic URM

Do you think schools will overlook my GPA from my first 2 years?

Looks to me like you are in a great place! Does your science GPA match the trend?

 

[gyngyn]

This is great information. I never knew an upward grade trend would make that much of a difference. I have been going by MSAR numbers but would @gonnif's suggestion work for me as well?
2.8GPA first 2 years of undergrad
3.4 Jr Yr
3.9 Sr. Yr
Liberal arts major

4.0 2 yr DIY post bacc (non-trad)
32MCAT
Hispanic URM

Do you think schools will overlook my GPA from my first 2 years?

Which Hispanic community?
State?

 

[brommanders]

.

 

[gyngyn]

Mexican-American, CA

You're fine.

 

[IlyaR]

An aside here, most formal SMP also dont impact your uGPA as it is a graduate degree. So it important to note it else where in your application and get LOR from the SMP. Hence why I tend to suggest to most SMP grads to have that as part of the PS. For career changers it organically flows in a PS as path/motivation to medicine. For GPA enhancers it can be done as well. Not the SMP is the focus of a PS, but get prominently mentioned

I included it in my PS as a way to test my aptitude for medical sciences and noted that it reaffirmed my decision to pursue medicine. Flowed well with the "why medicine" answer

 

[brommanders]

.

 

[gyngyn]

how high should I aim?

Make a list and bring it to WAMC!