Is There Any Way...

[sr12]

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...to find out what the attrition rate for each dental school is?

 

[Vicviper]

Hm... calling the schools might work, or maybe asking students. From what I hear, the national average is something like 1-2 per year that either leave, or are asked to leave for various reasons - not all academic, some just don't want to do it anymore.

 

[MRSA]

the ADEA releases a report every year. Poke around on their website and you can find 2008-2009 data.

http://www.adea.org/publications/library/ADEAsurveysreports/Pages/default.aspx

(this isn't the exact link, i just can't find the most recent report at this moment, though i've read it downloaded it before)

 

[sr12]

Hm... calling the schools might work, or maybe asking students. From what I hear, the national average is something like 1-2 per year that either leave, or are asked to leave for various reasons - not all academic, some just don't want to do it anymore.

I was hoping to find out for each dental school: of the number of students admitted to 1st-year, how many graduate after 4 years ?

The thing about asking the schools is it's hard to tell whether they're citing lower numbers of students leaving to make their school look good. No dean of a school wants to say a lot of students leave.

 

[sr12]

What I mean is I'm trying to find out which schools make it easy for u to fail out by making the curriculum really hard. I know dental school is hard at all schools, but at some dental schools, it's easier to fail out than at others. I'm trying to find those dental schools where it's easy to fail out.

 

[browncrack]

What I mean is I'm trying to find out which schools make it easy for u to fail out by making the curriculum really hard. I know dental school is hard at all schools, but at some dental schools, it's easier to fail out than at others. I'm trying to find those dental schools where it's easy to fail out.

Any school is easy to fail out of. The right question is how hard is it to graduate as an excellent clinician at that school?

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

What I mean is I'm trying to find out which schools make it easy for u to fail out by making the curriculum really hard. I know dental school is hard at all schools, but at some dental schools, it's easier to fail out than at others. I'm trying to find those dental schools where it's easy to fail out.

I can tell you this for certain, dental schools do not want you fail. As long as you put effort into everything, they will work with you. Even the schools you read here in the SDN Forums where people complain about their school, these schools don't want you to fail. They may take longer to graduate, but they don't want you to fail. Failing you does nothing for them and doesn't help the profession. Now, if a person sucks and doesn't really belong in dental school, they won't hesitate to fail you, but this is not what they really want. they want you to be a dentist.

My advice to you is to worry less about attrition rates and think more about what schools fit your needs. You can get a greaqt education at all schools depending on how much effort you put into your education. If you are lucky enough to get into multiple dental schools, then worry about the variables that will narrow your choice of which school to attend.

 

[DentalG]

I am failing a class, my last three exams were 70 59 55 60 and am in panic mode cant get myself up out of this. I met with professors and they haven't been able to help me. Ive reached a wall and cant break through. So upset because I worked so hard to get into dental school and feel like my dream and career are slowly slipping away. I literally feel like the professors think im dumb or just gave up on me and are waiting to fail me out.. Sounds terrible i know, but they really are upset and dont know what is going on- one professor let me know that theyve never come across a student like myself- not good and now im even more panicked!

 

[sr12]

I am failing a class, my last three exams were 70 59 55 60 and am in panic mode cant get myself up out of this. I met with professors and they haven't been able to help me. Ive reached a wall and cant break through. So upset because I worked so hard to get into dental school and feel like my dream and career are slowly slipping away. I literally feel like the professors think im dumb or just gave up on me and are waiting to fail me out.. Sounds terrible i know, but they really are upset and dont know what is going on- one professor let me know that theyve never come across a student like myself- not good and now im even more panicked!

Which dental school are u going to? What were ur stats like getting into that dental school?

 

[FutureDent020]

Now, if a person sucks and doesn't really belong in dental school, they won't hesitate to fail you, but this is not what they really want. they want you to be a dentist.

Or...they don't want to lose your tuition, because it's hard to replace a seat once school gets going. But yes, schools want you to finish and get your degree.

 

[peanutb123]

Or...they don't want to lose your tuition, because it's hard to replace a seat once school gets going. But yes, schools want you to finish and get your degree.

nah now they are offering seats for international dentists for 3rd year and 2nd year so they wont lose any money lol 😉

 

[thetruth4u]

I am failing a class, my last three exams were 70 59 55 60 and am in panic mode cant get myself up out of this. I met with professors and they haven't been able to help me. Ive reached a wall and cant break through. So upset because I worked so hard to get into dental school and feel like my dream and career are slowly slipping away. I literally feel like the professors think im dumb or just gave up on me and are waiting to fail me out.. Sounds terrible i know, but they really are upset and dont know what is going on- one professor let me know that theyve never come across a student like myself- not good and now im even more panicked!

Sounds like no win situation. Its going to really suck once they kick you out and you have all those loans to pay back. You need to send out some Hygiene School applications asap!

 

[sr12]

nah now they are offering seats for international dentists for 3rd year and 2nd year so they wont lose any money lol 😉

Not all schools have a program for international dentists, only a few. Some schools don't even allow advanced placement for students of other dental schools.

 

[sr12]

.

 

[DMD 4 Me]

You aren't going to find an objective measure of the school's difficulty. All of the schools are accredited by the ADA; I would say they are all about the same.

Of course there will be differences based on exact curriculum and instructors...

Anything anyone tells you about students failing out all has its own set of circumstances. Maybe one person didn't study like they should have, maybe another person was sick; maybe another person was kicked out for cheating.

Even if you had a list of the number of students dismissed from the school, it wouldn't tell you anything about the difficulty of the curriculum.

 

[kp18]

You aren't going to find an objective measure of the school's difficulty. All of the schools are accredited by the ADA; I would say they are all about the same.

Of course there will be differences based on exact curriculum and instructors...

Anything anyone tells you about students failing out all has its own set of circumstances. Maybe one person didn't study like they should have, maybe another person was sick; maybe another person was kicked out for cheating.

Even if you had a list of the number of students dismissed from the school, it wouldn't tell you anything about the difficulty of the curriculum.

If I had a list of the students dismissed from each school, it really would be helpful. Yes, there r students who don't study & cheat, so they r dismissed. But it can't happen all the time at 1 school. If there's a trend of lots of dismissals at 1 school over many years, u have to wonder why. Why not at other schools? Anomalies even themselves out over time and if u sample from a large enough sample.

So if u look at the trend at all the schools over many years, and there's been consistently a high attrition rate at 1 school (for cheating or failing the courses cuz the students are so-called "not smart enough"), that's a harder school than most. Take away the number of students cheating at each school, which should be similar at pretty much all the schools over the years, if there's still dismissal for "not keeping up in the curriculum academically," then it has to be a harder school than the other schools.

NYU's the only school I know of where ~100 international dentists r accepted into 2nd year, but u don't know how many of the original ~240 4-year DDS students actually graduate & get their degrees. Only a few other schools accept international dentists into their program, & even they only accept ~20 international dentists max, so it's clearer how many of the original 4-year DDS students don't get kicked out & actually get their degrees. With NYU, it's harder to tell.
Any other schools that r like this ?

 

[DMD 4 Me]

If I had a list of the students dismissed from each school, it really would be helpful. Yes, there r students who don't study & cheat, so they r dismissed. But it can't happen all the time at 1 school. If there's a trend of lots of dismissals at 1 school over many years, u have to wonder why. Why not at other schools? Anomalies even themselves out over time and if u sample from a large enough sample.

So if u look at the trend at all the schools over many years, and there's been consistently a high attrition rate at 1 school (for cheating or failing the courses cuz the students are so-called "not smart enough"), that's a harder school than most. Take away the number of students cheating at each school, which should be similar at pretty much all the schools over the years, if there's still dismissal for "not keeping up in the curriculum academically," then it has to be a harder school than the other schools.

NYU's the only school I know of where ~100 international dentists r accepted into 2nd year, but u don't know how many of the original ~240 4-year DDS students actually graduate & get their degrees. Only a few other schools accept international dentists into their program, & even they only accept ~20 international dentists max, so it's clearer how many of the original 4-year DDS students don't get kicked out & actually get their degrees. With NYU, it's harder to tell.
Any other schools that r like this ?

Any list you find or make won't show why each student was removed from the school.

Therefore, there would be no legitimate correlation between difficulty of the curriculum and amount of students lost each year.

Making or analyzing a list like this would be a gross waste of time, and frankly is the wrong attitude to have going into dental school.

There is no guarantee you would get into your 'easy' school even if you found one.

And if there was a list of easy dental schools, then you can bet your butt that this list would have been compiled along time ago.

I don’t understand what you were talking about with regards to NYU, but if the OP is that concerned about NYU, then he/she doesn't have to go there.

The schools would have accreditation revoked if they didn’t produce competent dentists.

It is in the schools interest for every student to graduate.

If you put in the effort, you will get the degree.

 

[sr12]

Any list you find or make won't show why each student was removed from the school.

Therefore, there would be no legitimate correlation between difficulty of the curriculum and amount of students lost each year.

Making or analyzing a list like this would be a gross waste of time, and frankly is the wrong attitude to have going into dental school.

There is no guarantee you would get into your 'easy' school even if you found one.

And if there was a list of easy dental schools, then you can bet your butt that this list would have been compiled along time ago.

I don’t understand what you were talking about with regards to NYU, but if the OP is that concerned about NYU, then he/she doesn't have to go there.

The schools would have accreditation revoked if they didn’t produce competent dentists.

It is in the schools interest for every student to graduate.

If you put in the effort, you will get the degree.

.

 

[kp18]

Any list you find or make won't show why each student was removed from the school.

Therefore, there would be no legitimate correlation between difficulty of the curriculum and amount of students lost each year.

Making or analyzing a list like this would be a gross waste of time, and frankly is the wrong attitude to have going into dental school.

There is no guarantee you would get into your 'easy' school even if you found one.

And if there was a list of easy dental schools, then you can bet your butt that this list would have been compiled along time ago.

I don't understand what you were talking about with regards to NYU, but if the OP is that concerned about NYU, then he/she doesn't have to go there.

The schools would have accreditation revoked if they didn't produce competent dentists.

It is in the schools interest for every student to graduate.

If you put in the effort, you will get the degree.

I, too, am not looking for the easy schools. I'm looking for the hardest schools to graduate from.

The reason why i mentioned NYU is cuz quite a few ppl say it's hard to do well & get the high marks needed to specialize by going to NYU. And the reason why it's hard to get those high marks must be the curriculum. If it's hard for the majority of students to get high marks at that school, it must be easier to fail out than if they're at another school.

Plus, ppl in NY (can't help but say it) are more cut-throat & less friendly than the rest of the States, so it's likely NYU wouldn't think twice to dismiss a student leaving that student stranded w/ nowhere to go & tons of debt, whereas other schools might be more friendly and therefore compassionate and think twice before kicking someone out. The media's nearby, so NYU keeps its students busy studying ALL the time so they don't get into trouble & make the headlines. It's prolly happened in the past, so NYU prolly gives more work than the average dental school just for that purpose. More work means less time to study, so things don't stick in ur head when u write exams cuz u didn't have enough time to let the material sink in. Plus, the pace of NY is rush, rush, rush, so it's almost like the school feels the need to make u do smthg ALL the time, even if it's ridiculous assignments u're never gonna be tested on. Why else would the school waste ur time on things u'll never need?

Plus, at NYU, they threaten to kick u out all the time, even for trivial things. Sure, it might scare the majority of the class into studying, but the stress of the schoolwork, debt, and now even the threats of getting kicked out all the time too?? I mean, how do the students know when the school's telling the truth and when it's not? Also, when giving students lots of work/exams, it helps to know how much is too much. Give too much & the stuff just won't stick in the students' heads. Then, studying would be counterproductive cuz u waste all that time but don't remember anything. To remember smthg w/ lots of details, it takes repetition and sleep/time to let it sink in. If u're already having to do another assignment, u're taking away time that could b used in re-looking at the material again so that it'll stick. After all, the whole purpose of the 4 years is really just to pass the 2-3 board exams needed to get a license. Schools should really just gear u towards passing/doing well on those exams, instead of filling ur head up w/ things u won't ever need for the boards or in ur practice. These trivial assignments that just fill up ur time take away time u could be studying for class exams, lab exams, board exams.

The best way is just to give u the material to study, give u 2 midterms + 1 final per course. Then, at the end of each year, there could be a big huge exam that emphasizes what u should've at least learned for that year to prep u for the 1st board exam. But, schools should give u a study session for this huge exam, cuz a year's worth of materials is a lot to have to re-study. They should only teach/test the things absolutely necessary for board exam #1, and nothing that's not necessary. (When u teach/test unncessary things, it's more possible answers that students need to think thru in a multiple-choice exam. If they were taught only the necessary things, then for a multiple-choice question, there'll be fewer possible (probable) answers students need to think thru, thereby wasting less of the students' time so they can go on to the nxt question.) This way, u'll at least be tested on the materials 3x before the boards. Being tested 3x usually means u'll need to have studied the materials at least 6x-9x. That's enough times for the materials to sink in for the majority of ppl.
As for the clinical side of things, just teach/make the students do only the things they absolutely need for practice in the real world & for the board exams. If students want to do more new things, students can take advanced courses after dental school or go into research. What I know is schools teach/make u do way more than u'll ever need for boards or for practice in the real world. And this is counterproductive cuz there's more options u'll now have to think thru before deciding on the right option (either on the boards or in real-life practice). And it takes away from sleep, eating, resting time that are crucial for memory formation & not becoming depressed cuz u're locked in ur room studying all the time. This is what makes dental school hard, all this mass of information that's often not necessary for boards or real-life practice. If it's not important for the boards or real-life practice, it should not be taught. Save that for advanced courses or research, if students choose to do those.

Sleep is important for recalling things u study too, so enough time to eat, sleep, rest is just as important as actually studying the material to do well on exams. Trivial assignments take time away from sleeping, eating, resting adequately.

It just seems like it's better to go to a school where the surrounding people are nicer, not rushing all the time, and where the media isn't around, so chances are higher that the school won't work u harder than at other schools and will think twice before it kicks u out.

 

[browncrack]

I, too, am not looking for the easy schools. I'm looking for the hardest schools to graduate from.

The reason why i mentioned NYU is cuz quite a few ppl say it's hard to do well & get the high marks needed to specialize by going to NYU. And the reason why it's hard to get those high marks must be the curriculum. If it's hard for the majority of students to get high marks at that school, it must be easier to fail out than if they're at another school.

Plus, ppl in NY (can't help but say it) are more cut-throat & less friendly than the rest of the States, so it's likely NYU wouldn't think twice to dismiss a student leaving that student stranded w/ nowhere to go & tons of debt, whereas other schools might be more friendly and therefore compassionate and think twice before kicking someone out. The media's nearby, so NYU keeps its students busy studying ALL the time so they don't get into trouble & make the headlines. It's prolly happened in the past, so NYU prolly gives more work than the average dental school just for that purpose. More work means less time to study, so things don't stick in ur head when u write exams cuz u didn't have enough time to let the material sink in. Plus, the pace of NY is rush, rush, rush, so it's almost like the school feels the need to make u do smthg ALL the time, even if it's ridiculous assignments u're never gonna be tested on. Why else would the school waste ur time on things u'll never need?

Plus, at NYU, they threaten to kick u out all the time, even for trivial things. Sure, it might scare the majority of the class into studying, but the stress of the schoolwork, debt, and now even the threats of getting kicked out all the time too?? I mean, how do the students know when the school's telling the truth and when it's not? Also, when giving students lots of work/exams, it helps to know how much is too much. Give too much & the stuff just won't stick in the students' heads. Then, studying would be counterproductive cuz u waste all that time but don't remember anything. To remember smthg w/ lots of details, it takes repetition and sleep/time to let it sink in. If u're already having to do another assignment, u're taking away time that could b used in re-looking at the material again so that it'll stick. After all, the whole purpose of the 4 years is really just to pass the 2-3 board exams needed to get a license. Schools should really just gear u towards passing/doing well on those exams, instead of filling ur head up w/ things u won't ever need for the boards or in ur practice. These trivial assignments that just fill up ur time take away time u could be studying for class exams, lab exams, board exams.

The best way is just to give u the material to study, give u 2 midterms + 1 final per course. Then, at the end of each year, there could be a big huge exam that emphasizes what u should've at least learned for that year to prep u for the 1st board exam. But, schools should give u a study session for this huge exam, cuz a year's worth of materials is a lot to have to re-study. They should only teach/test the things absolutely necessary for board exam #1, and nothing that's not necessary. (When u teach/test unncessary things, it's more possible answers that students need to think thru in a multiple-choice exam. If they were taught only the necessary things, then for a multiple-choice question, there'll be fewer possible (probable) answers students need to think thru, thereby wasting less of the students' time so they can go on to the nxt question.) This way, u'll at least be tested on the materials 3x before the boards. Being tested 3x usually means u'll need to have studied the materials at least 6x-9x. That's enough times for the materials to sink in for the majority of ppl.
As for the clinical side of things, just teach/make the students do only the things they absolutely need for practice in the real world & for the board exams. If students want to do more new things, students can take advanced courses after dental school or go into research. What I know is schools teach/make u do way more than u'll ever need for boards or for practice in the real world. And this is counterproductive cuz there's more options u'll now have to think thru before deciding on the right option (either on the boards or in real-life practice). And it takes away from sleep, eating, resting time that are crucial for memory formation & not becoming depressed cuz u're locked in ur room studying all the time. This is what makes dental school hard, all this mass of information that's often not necessary for boards or real-life practice. If it's not important for the boards or real-life practice, it should not be taught. Save that for advanced courses or research, if students choose to do those.

Sleep is important for recalling things u study too, so enough time to eat, sleep, rest is just as important as actually studying the material to do well on exams. Trivial assignments take time away from sleeping, eating, resting adequately.

It just seems like it's better to go to a school where the surrounding people are nicer, not rushing all the time, and where the media isn't around, so chances are higher that the school won't work u harder than at other schools and will think twice before it kicks u out.

I didn't apply to NYU but if I were I would use this as my personal statement. Study as hard as you can at any school and your grades should reflect this effort.

 

[DMD 4 Me]

I, too, am not looking for the easy schools. I'm looking for the hardest schools to graduate from.

The reason why i mentioned NYU is cuz quite a few ppl say it's hard to do well & get the high marks needed to specialize by going to NYU. And the reason why it's hard to get those high marks must be the curriculum. If it's hard for the majority of students to get high marks at that school, it must be easier to fail out than if they're at another school.

Plus, ppl in NY (can't help but say it) are more cut-throat & less friendly than the rest of the States, so it's likely NYU wouldn't think twice to dismiss a student leaving that student stranded w/ nowhere to go & tons of debt, whereas other schools might be more friendly and therefore compassionate and think twice before kicking someone out. The media's nearby, so NYU keeps its students busy studying ALL the time so they don't get into trouble & make the headlines. It's prolly happened in the past, so NYU prolly gives more work than the average dental school just for that purpose. More work means less time to study, so things don't stick in ur head when u write exams cuz u didn't have enough time to let the material sink in. Plus, the pace of NY is rush, rush, rush, so it's almost like the school feels the need to make u do smthg ALL the time, even if it's ridiculous assignments u're never gonna be tested on. Why else would the school waste ur time on things u'll never need?

Plus, at NYU, they threaten to kick u out all the time, even for trivial things. Sure, it might scare the majority of the class into studying, but the stress of the schoolwork, debt, and now even the threats of getting kicked out all the time too?? I mean, how do the students know when the school's telling the truth and when it's not? Also, when giving students lots of work/exams, it helps to know how much is too much. Give too much & the stuff just won't stick in the students' heads. Then, studying would be counterproductive cuz u waste all that time but don't remember anything. To remember smthg w/ lots of details, it takes repetition and sleep/time to let it sink in. If u're already having to do another assignment, u're taking away time that could b used in re-looking at the material again so that it'll stick. After all, the whole purpose of the 4 years is really just to pass the 2-3 board exams needed to get a license. Schools should really just gear u towards passing/doing well on those exams, instead of filling ur head up w/ things u won't ever need for the boards or in ur practice. These trivial assignments that just fill up ur time take away time u could be studying for class exams, lab exams, board exams.

The best way is just to give u the material to study, give u 2 midterms + 1 final per course. Then, at the end of each year, there could be a big huge exam that emphasizes what u should've at least learned for that year to prep u for the 1st board exam. But, schools should give u a study session for this huge exam, cuz a year's worth of materials is a lot to have to re-study. They should only teach/test the things absolutely necessary for board exam #1, and nothing that's not necessary. (When u teach/test unncessary things, it's more possible answers that students need to think thru in a multiple-choice exam. If they were taught only the necessary things, then for a multiple-choice question, there'll be fewer possible (probable) answers students need to think thru, thereby wasting less of the students' time so they can go on to the nxt question.) This way, u'll at least be tested on the materials 3x before the boards. Being tested 3x usually means u'll need to have studied the materials at least 6x-9x. That's enough times for the materials to sink in for the majority of ppl.
As for the clinical side of things, just teach/make the students do only the things they absolutely need for practice in the real world & for the board exams. If students want to do more new things, students can take advanced courses after dental school or go into research. What I know is schools teach/make u do way more than u'll ever need for boards or for practice in the real world. And this is counterproductive cuz there's more options u'll now have to think thru before deciding on the right option (either on the boards or in real-life practice). And it takes away from sleep, eating, resting time that are crucial for memory formation & not becoming depressed cuz u're locked in ur room studying all the time. This is what makes dental school hard, all this mass of information that's often not necessary for boards or real-life practice. If it's not important for the boards or real-life practice, it should not be taught. Save that for advanced courses or research, if students choose to do those.

Sleep is important for recalling things u study too, so enough time to eat, sleep, rest is just as important as actually studying the material to do well on exams. Trivial assignments take time away from sleeping, eating, resting adequately.

It just seems like it's better to go to a school where the surrounding people are nicer, not rushing all the time, and where the media isn't around, so chances are higher that the school won't work u harder than at other schools and will think twice before it kicks u out.

I did not read this entire post because just skimming it, I saw it is loaded with a ton of nonsense, generalizations and conclusions you've drawn from god knows where.

I am not going to waste any more time in this thread.

Good luck with your endeavors.

 

[clearview]

I did not read this entire post because just skimming it, I saw it is loaded with a ton of nonsense, generalizations and conclusions you've drawn from god knows where.

I am not going to waste any more time in this thread.

Good luck with your endeavors.

Same here, I didn't even bother to finish reading it, how did you come with all these generalizations. where do people take this???

 

[kp18]

Same here, I didn't even bother to finish reading it, how did you come with all these generalizations. where do people take this???

I just wanna know all the dirty stuff about schools that make it easy for u to fail out, ie. by making the curriculum so hard that only a certain percentage make it thru to graduation. Obviously schools lose $$ by failing students out, but if they bring in international dentists, it wouldn't matter too much to the schools moneywise if they let go a higher % of students than at other schools. Maybe, the plan was to overaccept, make the curriculum really hard knowing only about 85-90% will barely pass, thus that is the true class size that should've bn accepted from year 1. Sure, the school loses out on $$ from the 10-15% "failed out," but it was anticipated so the school still manages to extract 1-2 years' worth of tuition from those 10-15% before kicking them out.

Keep in mind that cheating comes about b/c ppl r desperate to pass. Ppl wouldn't b so stupid to cheat if they were gonna pass w/ a "C" at least. So what we perceive as a legitimate reason to kick students out could be the school's doing too (making the curriculum so hard that there's not enough time to properly study, thus students resort to cheating just so they don't "fail out" and have their dreams of being a dentist crushed). Cheating happens at all schools, but if there's a higher rate at 1, u wonder why.

Why is it that NYU is the only school to have a bad reputation about kicking students out? Why don't other schools have this reputation? Or do they?
In my previous post, I was merely deciphering the reasons why this might be so.