Is there such thing as a "bad" research lab?

[PikaPikaPika]

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Is there anything a student needs to look out for while joining a research group? I've had the fortunate luck of being in 2 amazing research groups so far and they've had a decent number of people each (10-15 + lab assistants/techs, etc.) and they've all been very sweet and inviting.

Right now I'm trying to find a new research project (long story short, I used to have a project but now I don't) and I got a positive response from PI who just started his lab. Is there anything bad about joining a fresh lab with only 1 grad student in the group so far? I'm worried there will not be enough funding or mentorship or that the community won't be as fun because there is just 1 person in the lab with me potentially.

Thanks.

 

[isoquin]

Yes, of course. If you know what a good research lab is like, then you know the bad ones are the opposite, whereby you are left to fend for yourself or compete against others for limited resources; where you have little guidance and leave feeling drained at the end of the day. Yes, they do exist. Avoid them. Then steal their NIH funding.

 

[Doctor246853]

Is there anything a student needs to look out for while joining a research group? I've had the fortunate luck of being in 2 amazing research groups so far and they've had a decent number of people each (10-15 + lab assistants/techs, etc.) and they've all been very sweet and inviting.

Right now I'm trying to find a new research project (long story short, I used to have a project but now I don't) and I got a positive response from PI who just started his lab. Is there anything bad about joining a fresh lab with only 1 grad student in the group so far? I'm worried there will not be enough funding or mentorship or that the community won't be as fun because there is just 1 person in the lab with me potentially.

Thanks.

Yes. I believe they prey on desperate premeds too so be careful.

 

[Freigeist]

if your PI mentions caveolae run for the hills!

this video should help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl4L4M8m4d0

was filmed at Baylor btw

 

[Etorphine]

this applies to other jobs as well, but having a boss that has mood disorders and throws hissy fits. I believe this is exacerbated in research, where you spend more hours in the lab/around the same faces than you do at home. If you get along well with your coworkers and are conducting quality research that you find interest in, than that is the best anyone can ask for.

 

[ponyo]

Is there anything a student needs to look out for while joining a research group? I've had the fortunate luck of being in 2 amazing research groups so far and they've had a decent number of people each (10-15 + lab assistants/techs, etc.) and they've all been very sweet and inviting.

Right now I'm trying to find a new research project (long story short, I used to have a project but now I don't) and I got a positive response from PI who just started his lab. Is there anything bad about joining a fresh lab with only 1 grad student in the group so far? I'm worried there will not be enough funding or mentorship or that the community won't be as fun because there is just 1 person in the lab with me potentially.

Thanks.

This is really PI dependent. Is your PI an asst. prof, if he's just starting out? They tend to be REALLY motivated and results-oriented, which could be incredibly good for you. Older. more laid-back PIs might not care as much, but an AP who's pressured to produce work will push you to get things done (some of them can still be very sweet, but just know that they'll be very publication-oriented). If you don't like that kind of environment though, don't work for one. If you too want a publication this could be really good.

 

[aSagacious]

I have worked in two different labs for a total of 4 years. In my first lab it was just me and the PI. In my current lab there is one grad student, myself, and the PI. I have really enjoyed both labs and wouldn't have it any other way. Assuming that there is sufficient funding and you are personally fine with the PI (as far as personality goes) I say go for it.

 

[kami333]

This is really PI dependent. Is your PI an asst. prof, if he's just starting out? They tend to be REALLY motivated and results-oriented, which could be incredibly good for you. Older. more laid-back PIs might not care as much, but an AP who's pressured to produce work will push you to get things done (some of them can still be very sweet, but just know that they'll be very publication-oriented). If you don't like that kind of environment though, don't work for one. If you too want a publication this could be really good.

^This. New profs need a track record of pubs for tenure. Not publishing in Nature/Science is excusable, not publishing at all is not.

And a lot of times they'll have a starting package for 3-5years (can be pretty substantial depending on how well funded the department is) meaning guaranteed $$$ for your stay.

Some potential downsides I've seen are:
*if they are new to the institute they won't have a lot of contacts/collaborators (**** don't work, no one to ask)
*low on the totem pole when it comes to politics (want to use that new machine? too bad, the head honcho's guys has it booked for the next 2months)
*not used to being a PI (lack of direction/mentoring or micromanages)
*he might be heading towards a new research direction than thesis/postdoc work therefor not as knowledgeable about the field
*only 1 grad student/no postdoc might mean slow progress (could be a plus depending on how you look at it since you could be more involved in the design, troubleshooting, etc)

 

[ucsfstudents]

Definitely talk to the grad student and anyone who has worked in the lab before you join. You don't want to enter a "bad" lab situation.

 

[Mnbvcxz]

^This. New profs need a track record of pubs for tenure. Not publishing in Nature/Science is excusable, not publishing at all is not.

And a lot of times they'll have a starting package for 3-5years (can be pretty substantial depending on how well funded the department is) meaning guaranteed $$$ for your stay.

Some potential downsides I've seen are:
*if they are new to the institute they won't have a lot of contacts/collaborators (**** don't work, no one to ask)
*low on the totem pole when it comes to politics (want to use that new machine? too bad, the head honcho's guys has it booked for the next 2months)
*not used to being a PI (lack of direction/mentoring or micromanages)
*he might be heading towards a new research direction than thesis/postdoc work therefor not as knowledgeable about the field
*only 1 grad student/no postdoc might mean slow progress (could be a plus depending on how you look at it since you could be more involved in the design, troubleshooting, etc)

Just out of curiosity, what is a good amount of publishing for a PI, time-wise?
Thanks

 

[smarts1]

Is there anything a student needs to look out for while joining a research group? I've had the fortunate luck of being in 2 amazing research groups so far and they've had a decent number of people each (10-15 + lab assistants/techs, etc.) and they've all been very sweet and inviting.

Right now I'm trying to find a new research project (long story short, I used to have a project but now I don't) and I got a positive response from PI who just started his lab. Is there anything bad about joining a fresh lab with only 1 grad student in the group so far? I'm worried there will not be enough funding or mentorship or that the community won't be as fun because there is just 1 person in the lab with me potentially.

Thanks.

I've actually had the most success under small labs. The big labs I have been in have grad students and postdocs who don't care about you, and on top of that, the PI is non-existent. I actually had an interview with a grad student about a lab position, and she even told me that the PI in her lab never comes out of his office and that "he is only about the money now." And when I rejected her offer in their lab, she asked me why I had rejected their lab... Um really?

As for labs that are just starting, I feel like they actually give you the most opportunity to learn and carry out your own research. On top of that the PI actually does come out once in a while and interact with the people in the lab.

 

[Cerena]

There are definitely some labs that are better than others. It took me a while to settle into one that I really liked 🙂

 

[418865]

Usually new labs grow quite quickly..yes new grad/post docs will have completely new research..but I like it this way as I find myself being part of the "team"..not just another "assistant"..so it's a lot of fun as I feel passionately into the research.

just have a short interview check out how your PI is..if s/he is cool and you can see yourself doing that kind of research..then go for it. i never really cared about getting "published"..but again it really differsn from subjects to subjects..publishing frequency varies a lot from each discipline..but I'd personally not worry about all that...feeling comfortable in a friendly lab where PI cares about your learning/involvement (beyond just washing equipments/running the same procedure for a year)..and you feel passionate: go for it!

 

[kami333]

Just out of curiosity, what is a good amount of publishing for a PI, time-wise?
Thanks

It depends on the field, the PI, what journals are being targeted, etc. Some fields will just be faster due to the nature of the studies (I was in a genetics lab that averaged 1/month), some labs aim for 1-3 Science/Nature/Cell pubs a year, while some longitudinal studies will take years to gather data but will publish a lot once it is over (current lab hasn't published much for the last couple years, but we just wrapped up a 7year study and now have 10papers waiting to be written from that data).

Aiming for 2-4 solid pubs each year is a number that is frequently thrown around for tenure track profs, but it isn't really set in stone.
Here's one article that looked at publishing trends in psychology. http://pss.sagepub.com/content/18/4/283.abstract

 

[PikaPikaPika]

This is really PI dependent. Is your PI an asst. prof, if he's just starting out? They tend to be REALLY motivated and results-oriented, which could be incredibly good for you. Older. more laid-back PIs might not care as much, but an AP who's pressured to produce work will push you to get things done (some of them can still be very sweet, but just know that they'll be very publication-oriented). If you don't like that kind of environment though, don't work for one. If you too want a publication this could be really good.

PI's an assistant professor and he seems very driven to get his lab to get things churned out. You're right though -- it could prove beneficial since the last lab I worked in had a PI that wasn't really involved and was verrrrrry laid back. Almost impossible to have gotten a publication there, though I did learn a lot technique-wise.

Otherwise, thanks to everyone else for their helpful advice. I'll be having a chat with the PI on Tuesday, so hopefully all goes well and I understand my position in the lab a little better after that.

 

[Laryngophed]

Yes.

 

[PTPoeny]

There are absolutely bad labs and it has nothing to do with the number of people in them or the newness of the PI. It has to do with the personality of the people in the lab and the culture of the lab as a whole.

 

[Laryngophed]

There are absolutely bad labs and it has nothing to do with the number of people in them or the newness of the PI. It has to do with the personality of the people in the lab and the culture of the lab as a whole.

Oh yes. People stuff ruins experiences way more than science stuffs.

 

[Morsetlis]

Oh yes. People stuff ruins experiences way more than science stuffs.

"WHY YOU PUT YOUR BUFFER IN MY HOOD"

"But I thought you were done."

🙁

 

[mrwesticles]

I worked in a bad research lab for a couple months. It's a place where you are basically as much of a tool as anything else, without any hope of real authorship or results.

It's like being the guy with the bucket on a sinking ship.

 

[ponyo]

"WHY YOU PUT YOUR BUFFER IN MY HOOD"

"But I thought you were done."

🙁

^ This.

We have a pregnant lady in our lab right now... It's been a rough couple of months :/

 

[Freigeist]

Very nice. Thanks!

haha, you're welcome. I like how elaborate they go with the biohazard bag costumes and all

 

[PikaPikaPika]

Just letting you guys know that I finally sat down with the new PI and talked it out with him about joining his lab. I'm getting an independent project on cancer proteomics, working personally with the PI as my mentor, and even getting paid! More than I could ask for as an undergrad 🙂

Guess this wasn't a "bad" research lab after all.

 

[MShopes]

I honestly think that working in a lab that has fewer people is better. My point is that when you work in a lab with a lot of people, you actually have less contribution to the project that they are doing if you all are working in a big project because you are new and because well, there is a lot of people so there is not much you can do to be different from them. And if you working alone, well it will be kind of distracting to have a lot of people in the same lab and taking all the free space there.

However, I agree that a bad lab is based on the mentor and their motivation plus personality. I work with a fresh new professor who got his PhD from Cambridge in biochemistry. So, he is well respected and known nonetheless. He is extremely motivated though, so I think working with new experienced mentors can be a better idea. The older ones might get tired if you ask two questions total in the lab day.

 

[EgoWaffleHead]

i get it..

 

[PikaPikaPika]

Originally, I picked my lab b/c I was interested in the work. However, in hindsight, the real perk of this lab was the publication rate, 30 per year! Also, the PI of the lab is a Chief Editor of a journal.

So, is there such thing as a bad lab? As sure as there are people with bad interpersonal skills and/or low prouductivity, yes!

My friend worked much harder and longer than I did at his lab, but he was not published and I was published in a top journal after 3 semesters of working 12 hours per month. He worked about 8 hours per week! Most UG fall into this category of never getting published for their 8hr work weeks. In addition, I received A's for every credit hour I worked, and I received lots of credit hours.

🙁 I wish my research could be earned for letter-grade units. I need that GPA inflation 🙁 but I shouldn't complain since money is better than nothing at all.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Is there anything a student needs to look out for while joining a research group? I've had the fortunate luck of being in 2 amazing research groups so far and they've had a decent number of people each (10-15 + lab assistants/techs, etc.) and they've all been very sweet and inviting.

Right now I'm trying to find a new research project (long story short, I used to have a project but now I don't) and I got a positive response from PI who just started his lab. Is there anything bad about joining a fresh lab with only 1 grad student in the group so far? I'm worried there will not be enough funding or mentorship or that the community won't be as fun because there is just 1 person in the lab with me potentially.

Thanks.

Look out for bipolar PIs who throw chairs during lab meeting. Or PIs who have a secret relationship with one of the grad students. I'm lucky to have experienced both.

 

[PikaPikaPika]

Look out for bipolar PIs who throw chairs during lab meeting. Or PIs who have a secret relationship with one of the grad students. I'm lucky to have experienced both.

Holy wow for the latter.

 

[jkm07]

My friend worked much harder and longer than I did at his lab, but he was not published and I was published in a top journal after 3 semesters of working 12 hours per month. He worked about 8 hours per week! Most UG fall into this category of never getting published for their 8hr work weeks. In addition, I received A's for every credit hour I worked, and I received lots of credit hours.

You are one lucky person.