is this normal?

[hopefulmed]

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So my first clerkship is fammed that started 3 days ago. So far, they're not expecting us to know much with most of the time following the attending/resident around. Anywhooo, there is myself and one other student on the team, and I'm starting to get a little irritated by her after spending just three days with her, but I'm not too sure if it's warranted. I feel like this person is a total kiss ass and kept talking over me when the attending ask a general question. Seem to response to every potential task that can be done. Attending say he should check the nurse's order, first thing out of her mouth is "should I get the folder?"... I kinda weird for not being totally enthusiastic or offering to run fetch anything at the slight thought that the attending might need it when my teamate is on the ball with all this stuff. I wonder if this is what it takes to do well... At time, I feel kind of bad for her, because if I think she looks like a tool, I wonder what the attending is thinking.. Maybe I'm the tool...? Who would have thunk all that crap you read about 3rd year might be true.

 

[domer621]

I feel like this person is a total kiss ass and kept talking over me when the attending ask a general question.

Was the attending asking a question to the team or to you specifically? If you know the answer, you should speak up if he's just asking a question in the air. It's a different story if she's actually gooning you.

One of my friends' teammates brought cookies for all of the residents the other day.... I think that's worse. 👎

 

[arsenewenger]

So my first clerkship is fammed that started 3 days ago. So far, they're not expecting us to know much with most of the time following the attending/resident around. Anywhooo, there is myself and one other student on the team, and I'm starting to get a little irritated by her after spending just three days with her, but I'm not too sure if it's warranted. I feel like this person is a total kiss ass and kept talking over me when the attending ask a general question. Seem to response to every potential task that can be done. Attending say he should check the nurse's order, first thing out of her mouth is "should I get the folder?"... I kinda weird for not being totally enthusiastic or offering to run fetch anything at the slight thought that the attending might need it when my teamate is on the ball with all this stuff. I wonder if this is what it takes to do well... At time, I feel kind of bad for her, because if I think she looks like a tool, I wonder what the attending is thinking.. Maybe I'm the tool...? Who would have thunk all that crap you read about 3rd year might be true.

You should feel bad for yourself because you are in a wrong profession.Quit now before it's too late.

Was the attending asking a question to the team or to you specifically? If you know the answer, you should speak up if he's just asking a question in the air. It's a different story if she's actually gooning you.

One of my friends' teammates brought cookies for all of the residents the other day.... I think that's worse. 👎

what's worse is you relating stories that has nothing to do with you.

you guys spend more time criticizing other people's actions instead of thinking of ways to better your personal (and obviously irritating) faults.

 

[smq123]

Seem to response to every potential task that can be done. Attending say he should check the nurse's order, first thing out of her mouth is "should I get the folder?"... I kinda weird for not being totally enthusiastic or offering to run fetch anything at the slight thought that the attending might need it when my teamate is on the ball with all this stuff. I wonder if this is what it takes to do well... At time, I feel kind of bad for her, because if I think she looks like a tool, I wonder what the attending is thinking.. Maybe I'm the tool...? Who would have thunk all that crap you read about 3rd year might be true.

The other 3rd year on your team sounds excessively worried - or else paid too much attention to those people who say that the best way to get honors is to be willing to do scut work.

Does she actually want to do family med? Or is she just really hoping to get AOA, or did she do poorly on Step 1 / first 2 years of classes, and now feels like she needs to catch up? Those things might explain why she's so...chipper.

Your story really makes me appreciate the other MS3s on my team....

you guys spend more time criticizing other people's actions instead of thinking of ways to better your personal (and obviously irritating) faults.

Because thankfully you don't do that at all! 🙄

You should feel bad for yourself because you are in a wrong profession.Quit now before it's too late.

what's worse is you relating stories that has nothing to do with you.

Wow. Thanks for those truly helpful words. Seeing that you've posted elsewhere that you're a member of the class of 2011, I'm sure that the OP will find them useful and take them to heart.

Seriously - how have you not been banned yet?

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

So my first clerkship is fammed that started 3 days ago. So far, we're not being acknowledged much so I'm doing my best to be noticed. Anywhooo, there is myself and one other student on the team, and I'm starting to get a little irritated by him after spending just three days with him, but I'm not too sure if it's warranted. I feel like this person is a total slacker and during discussion he doesn't even seem to know what the rest of the team is talking about, so I try to direct him back on topic so he doesn't embarass himself. He seems to be unaware that the team is actually working. Attending say he should check the nurse's order, I always have to run and get it because he's off in his own little world... I kinda feel weird for having to act like "total gunner girl", but I'm afraid if I don't do anything nothing we'll get done and will both get slammed in evaluationjs for it. Is standing around and hanging out all it takes to pass... At time, I feel kind of bad for him, because if I think he looks like a tool, I wonder what the attending is thinking?.. Maybe I'm the tool...? Who would have thunk all that crap you read about 3rd year might be true.

-----------------

Not saying who's right or wrong, but there's three sides to every story. Their side, your side, and the truth.

 

[Hoya11]

wow some harsh replies so far...

i have met many people like this, and its not that "nothing will get done" if i dont get the 4x4 fast enough. It is just the annoying culture of being a medical student, unfortunately this kiss-ass behavior is rewarded. That student will undoubtedly do better than you unless you start lowering yourself and doing the same sort of tool-like stuff.

The people who do this are the same sort of people who stay in night after night studying to get honors or whatever, and claim that they never study. They just do not know when to stop. Most have no real life or sense of reward from anything outside of medicine. And so YOU then have to start doing this stuff to not look bad by comparison. Welcome to third year. Before you could just let numbers do the talking but now you actually have to interact with the many maniacs that make up your class.

I feel like for residents the equivalent is the guy who never goes home post call or works extra hours or whatever. Everyone else wishes theyd just chill out and stop seeking approval constantly.

 

[ChildNeuro]

So my first clerkship is fammed that started 3 days ago. So far, they're not expecting us to know much with most of the time following the attending/resident around. Anywhooo, there is myself and one other student on the team, and I'm starting to get a little irritated by her after spending just three days with her, but I'm not too sure if it's warranted. I feel like this person is a total kiss ass and kept talking over me when the attending ask a general question. Seem to response to every potential task that can be done. Attending say he should check the nurse's order, first thing out of her mouth is "should I get the folder?"... I kinda weird for not being totally enthusiastic or offering to run fetch anything at the slight thought that the attending might need it when my teamate is on the ball with all this stuff. I wonder if this is what it takes to do well... At time, I feel kind of bad for her, because if I think she looks like a tool, I wonder what the attending is thinking.. Maybe I'm the tool...? Who would have thunk all that crap you read about 3rd year might be true.

I think it is rude when one medical student interrupts another to answer a question. If she didn't interrupt you it is ok, and better than ok if she got the answer right. She will probably honor or high pass the rotation. I always speak up if I know the answer to the question, or have a legitimate question, some students ask a question just for the sake of asking a question, usually the attending will answer just for the heck of it, but once an attending actually said that it was an odd question as it was something that is easily look-up-able. I like doing extra-little chores like getting charts and stuff on a rotation, it is sort of like being a volunteer again in my pre-college days in hospitals running around doing stuff, old habits die hard, this student may have been this way for years. I think it is ok to do this stuff, but not to the point of stealing opportunities from other students to help out. When a student interrupts me when I'm answering a question I just keep on talking, most of the time the other student is wrong and just wants to butt in while I'm making a teaching point, one student did this, and I just kept on talking like a freight train, and then told the student why they were wrong. Think ahead when you are a resident/attending about what type of med student you would like to have, and it would probably be the one more like this student who runs around and does everything, and answers questions i.e. looks interested! Most of my rotations the students don't want to work hard or do little things or answer questions, I do, this is why I've unintentionally honored practically everything last year. I think, knowing everything about your patient's and management helps too. The secret is out I guess.

 

[ericdamiansean]

some students ask a question just for the sake of asking a question, .

Don't you feel like kicking these people?

 

[domer621]

Seeing that you've posted elsewhere that you're a member of the class of 2011, I'm sure that the OP will find them useful and take them to heart.

SDN never ceases to convince me that there are some real tools going into this profession.

 

[fakin' the funk]

I think it is rude when one medical student interrupts another to answer a question.

Aren't you the one who advocates "hijacking" the rotation? Yet more back-patting.

OP- if your fellow student is truly being rude/annoying, it will get old real fast and everyone else will recognize it as well. Just keep chuggin' along.

 

[ChildNeuro]

Aren't you the one who advocates "hijacking" the rotation?

Not the same as being blatantly pushy and hogging the limelight.

 

[Anka]

So my first clerkship is fammed that started 3 days ago. So far, they're not expecting us to know much with most of the time following the attending/resident around. Anywhooo, there is myself and one other student on the team, and I'm starting to get a little irritated by her after spending just three days with her, but I'm not too sure if it's warranted. I feel like this person is a total kiss ass and kept talking over me when the attending ask a general question. Seem to response to every potential task that can be done. Attending say he should check the nurse's order, first thing out of her mouth is "should I get the folder?"... I kinda weird for not being totally enthusiastic or offering to run fetch anything at the slight thought that the attending might need it when my teamate is on the ball with all this stuff. I wonder if this is what it takes to do well... At time, I feel kind of bad for her, because if I think she looks like a tool, I wonder what the attending is thinking.. Maybe I'm the tool...? Who would have thunk all that crap you read about 3rd year might be true.

A lot of the particulars depend on the culture of your school or rotation. Speaking over someone else is always rude; as is answering a question directed to another student. On the other hand, if the attending is asking questions to "the group", whoever knows the answer pipes up, and there's nothing wrong with that. This means the person who is fastest with the answer gets more of the questions, and tends to reward memorization of Surgical Recall or Family Med Recall, as the case may be. That said, it can be really frustrating if you're the sort of person who needs a couple of minutes to think to come up with the answer. I'm not sure there's an easy solution to that one. The best way I've seen it go down was we two med students were friends, and just decided regardless of who knew the answer, we would both count to ten before answering... tended to be more equitable, but you have to be friends to make it work.

As far as responding to every task that might need to be done, that's your job as a third year med student at many schools on at least some rotations. At my school, at least on surgery, if you're standing there while the chief resident is opening a 4x4, you're not doing your job (and you'll be told that). If the chief sounds like she might need a flow sheet, you run around and find the flow sheet. While the intern is putting up the dressing in the last room, you run down the hall ahead of the team to the next room and get the dressing down. And so on. On family med, however, things are more low key, and that's not the case.

So, to sum things up, try to be friends with the other med student on the rotation. What she's doing could either come from having been taught to do that, or from nerves. If you feel like she's really stepping on your toes, and you can thing of a better way to coordinate it, try talking to her to coordinate something. On the other hand, if she's just trying to make your attending's life easier, join in. As far as buying cookies and such, if you're going to do it, coordinate with the other student so you both brought them in. If you're giving a presentation on a topic, give the other student a heads up so she can do one also (and can read up on the topic to answer relevant pimp questions). Mostly, though, just keep your head down, work hard, and take care of your patients and your team... don't get pulled into the drama.

Best,
Anka

 

[hopefulmed]

Thanks for the reply everyone. I really don't care about getting an honor grade in family medicine, as the field I'm interested most likely doesn't require me to get honor in all the classes or clinical rotation... I just don't want to find out that I fail at the end of the rotation due to a lack of insincere enthusiasm (I'm all for helping when it's needed or ask of me, and will complete my job - hope that's enough).

 

[Anka]

Thanks for the reply everyone. I really don't care about getting an honor grade in family medicine, as the field I'm interested most likely doesn't require me to get honor in all the classes or clinical rotation... I just don't want to find out that I fail at the end of the rotation due to a lack of insincere enthusiasm (I'm all for helping when it's needed or ask of me, and will complete my job - hope that's enough).

That's a good attitude to have ("I'm all for helping ... and will complete my job"). The sort of thing you're talking about isn't a fail vs pass thing, it's more of an honors vs. high pass thing if it comes into play at all. Don't stress too much about this -- family medicine is supposed to be a low key way to get used to patient care. Even if it's not your thing, it's kind of fun to play the family doctor for a few weeks; don't let the other student on the rotation take that away from you.

Best,
Anka

 

[lord_jeebus]

I always thought it was silly how some students would take every opportunity to be the first one to run to the supply room. I have nothing against helping the team but I'm not going to fight for the opportunity to fetch some 4x4s.

I would usually take the opportunity while waiting for the other student to ask an intelligent question to the patient or the team. I don't know many people who got comments on the speed of their equipment fetching on their evals, but I know my questions counted for something. I actually think asking these questions does more for your enthusiasm score than doing random scut, at least at my school.

 

[ChildNeuro]

I always thought it was silly how some students would take every opportunity to be the first one to run to the supply room. I have nothing against helping the team but I'm not going to fight for the opportunity to fetch some 4x4s.

I would *run* on rotations to get stuff on surgery, even when there weren't other students, because hopefully it would please the hysteric surgery residents and attendings and they wouldn't yell at us as much. That's cool that you resisted the temptation, if two other students bolted out of the door because they were closer, the attending would usually give me a look, trying to figure out why one med students is still in the room, I would read their mind and say aloud, "I guess these two are going to get the supplies." and look all surprised. Sort of acknowledging the power of the resident that yes, we must get all of the supplies as soon as possible so your rounds are a cake walk.

 

[lord_jeebus]

I would *run* on rotations to get stuff on surgery, even when there weren't other students, because hopefully it would please the hysteric surgery residents and attendings and they wouldn't yell at us as much. That's cool that you resisted the temptation, if two other students bolted out of the door because they were closer, the attending would usually give me a look, trying to figure out why one med students is still in the room, I would read their mind and say aloud, "I guess these two are going to get the supplies." and look all surprised. Sort of acknowledging the power of the resident that yes, we must get all of the supplies as soon as possible so your rounds are a cake walk.

For some reason Surgery at my school is kind of different. Most attendings can't be bothered to round with everyone, so they generally hear about the patients very quickly from a resident and head to the OR. I didn't present many patients beyond my intern. I think a lot of the dressing changes and such get done by the interns while students are in the OR (where we are expected to be if any case is going on).

I would hate to be a surgical intern at my institution.

 

[Top Gun]

For some reason Surgery at my school is kind of different. Most attendings can't be bothered to round with everyone, so they generally hear about the patients very quickly from a resident and head to the OR. I didn't present many patients beyond my intern. I think a lot of the dressing changes and such get done by the interns while students are in the OR (where we are expected to be if any case is going on).

I would hate to be a surgical intern at my institution.

That's different from my surgical rotation. Usually the students, interns, and residents did dressing changes on rounds. After rounds, when we had finished writing our progress notes, then we could go to the OR. Also, the attendings never did the early-morning rounds with us. The chief resident would just report to the attendings.

 

[Tired]

I am a surgical intern. Every day I have a list of 452 things that I have to get done, most of them before noon. In between I have to deal with 73 pages for "emergent" problems from the wards. Someone yells at me at least once an hour because we're missing films, or I didn't get a discharge done fast enough, or I don't know a lab value, or just for fun.

I hate asking med students to do stuff for me. Hate it. I send them to every operative case available, and I try to send them home before 5 every day. But seriously, if there're no cases between 2p-5p, I could really use someone speaking up offering to run errands. Not because I want to scut you out, but because I am f*cking drowning every day, and could use a hand.

So here's my advice/plea to all the MS3's. Offer me some help, and I'll talk you up to no end to the Chiefs and Attendings. Ask to go home in the early afternoon and I'll totally let you go, but when the Chief asks me what I think of you, I'll just say, "He's okay." It's a small thing, but may make the difference down the road if you ever want to get in here.

 

[Final]

👍

I am a surgical intern. Every day I have a list of 452 things that I have to get done, most of them before noon. In between I have to deal with 73 pages for "emergent" problems from the wards. Someone yells at me at least once an hour because we're missing films, or I didn't get a discharge done fast enough, or I don't know a lab value, or just for fun.

I hate asking med students to do stuff for me. Hate it. I send them to every operative case available, and I try to send them home before 5 every day. But seriously, if there're no cases between 2p-5p, I could really use someone speaking up offering to run errands. Not because I want to scut you out, but because I am f*cking drowning every day, and could use a hand.

So here's my advice/plea to all the MS3's. Offer me some help, and I'll talk you up to no end to the Chiefs and Attendings. Ask to go home in the early afternoon and I'll totally let you go, but when the Chief asks me what I think of you, I'll just say, "He's okay." It's a small thing, but may make the difference down the road if you ever want to get in here.

sounds about right for a surgical intern. Thanks for reaffirming my disinterest in surgery. enjoy your life.

 

[Hard24Get]

A lot of the particulars depend on the culture of your school or rotation. Speaking over someone else is always rude; as is answering a question directed to another student. On the other hand, if the attending is asking questions to "the group", whoever knows the answer pipes up, and there's nothing wrong with that. This means the person who is fastest with the answer gets more of the questions, and tends to reward memorization of Surgical Recall or Family Med Recall, as the case may be. That said, it can be really frustrating if you're the sort of person who needs a couple of minutes to think to come up with the answer. I'm not sure there's an easy solution to that one. The best way I've seen it go down was we two med students were friends, and just decided regardless of who knew the answer, we would both count to ten before answering... tended to be more equitable, but you have to be friends to make it work.

As far as responding to every task that might need to be done, that's your job as a third year med student at many schools on at least some rotations. At my school, at least on surgery, if you're standing there while the chief resident is opening a 4x4, you're not doing your job (and you'll be told that). If the chief sounds like she might need a flow sheet, you run around and find the flow sheet. While the intern is putting up the dressing in the last room, you run down the hall ahead of the team to the next room and get the dressing down. And so on. On family med, however, things are more low key, and that's not the case.

So, to sum things up, try to be friends with the other med student on the rotation. What she's doing could either come from having been taught to do that, or from nerves. If you feel like she's really stepping on your toes, and you can thing of a better way to coordinate it, try talking to her to coordinate something. On the other hand, if she's just trying to make your attending's life easier, join in. As far as buying cookies and such, if you're going to do it, coordinate with the other student so you both brought them in. If you're giving a presentation on a topic, give the other student a heads up so she can do one also (and can read up on the topic to answer relevant pimp questions). Mostly, though, just keep your head down, work hard, and take care of your patients and your team... don't get pulled into the drama.

Best,
Anka

This is all true. I was taught, especially on surgery, that as a med student you can either speed up rounds or slow them down. Once I had the chief resident open up gauze while I was standing there, and the second year gave me such a talking to that I start moving right away when something is needed for the team. Sometimes the other student just looks at me, and I'm like, "come on". Those who have befriended me and joined in have done well in their rotations. The bottom line is clinics are closer to the real world and it's no longer enough just to show up. You are at the bottom of the totem pole and not very useful unless you make yourself useful, so stop acting as if you're better than everyone and help out! It's really not that hard. 🙄

Also if you don't speak up at rounds no one will know what you know and thus won't be able to properly evaluate you.

 

[PreMedAdAG]

I totally get what the OP is saying though, I mean seriously - it's really easy to get shut out. People talk non stop and if you want to be heard - you almost have to interrupt - it's ridic! Anyway - I'm in the same boat - I hate pushy aggressive people, so I find myself with my mouth shut most the time - sure I'll scut myself out - I don't mind - as long as I'm helping the patient and/or residents/attendings/nurses/whoever. I'm paired with a 4th year which sucks b/c it's July and I don't know my @$$ from a hole in the wall. I'm doing my best to not be annoying, stay out of the way, do my work efficiently - but I could use some advice and I'm sure the OP could as well, on how to stand out as a useful great med student. I feel like a doormat and that no one really thinks I'm worth much.

 

[Hard24Get]

I totally get what the OP is saying though, I mean seriously - it's really easy to get shut out. People talk non stop and if you want to be heard - you almost have to interrupt - it's ridic! Anyway - I'm in the same boat - I hate pushy aggressive people, so I find myself with my mouth shut most the time - sure I'll scut myself out - I don't mind - as long as I'm helping the patient and/or residents/attendings/nurses/whoever. I'm paired with a 4th year which sucks b/c it's July and I don't know my @$$ from a hole in the wall. I'm doing my best to not be annoying, stay out of the way, do my work efficiently - but I could use some advice and I'm sure the OP could as well, on how to stand out as a useful great med student. I feel like a doormat and that no one really thinks I'm worth much.

Sorry, but the key to standing out as a "useful great med student" is to copy the "pushy" aggressive people you hate, like me. 😛

 

[PreMedAdAG]

Sorry, but the key to standing out as a "useful great med student" is to copy the "pushy" aggressive people you hate, like me. 😛

In other words, I need to become someone I'm not - sweet!! Ugh - getting through this to be an FP or psychiatrist in a small clinic is rough....

 

[DebDynamite]

In other words, I need to become someone I'm not - sweet!! Ugh - getting through this to be an FP or psychiatrist in a small clinic is rough....

To the OP & premed: I don't know if you should really change too much. Lots of the students who gun really hard are in reality just acting the way that feels natural to them.

Instead, you might develop your own style of gunning it that gets you through. For instance, if you are strong at reading people and their moods, you will be able to tell which residents and attendings like to have their butts kissed and which hate it.

You can also stuff a bunch of ETOH pads, 4X4's, scissors and tape in your pocket (toolish I know) when on surgery and then you will run around less. This is really one of the few rotations where intensive floorwork requires lots of step & fetch-it action. You can ask properly timed, intelligent questions of the attendings and residents who grade you and offer to help your immediate senior (but do ask on the street 1st who the scut ****** are- offering to help them is like jumping into a black hole). This will go a lot lot farther than skiping down the hall looking for a chart like you're on an easter egg hunt. Think about it. The other secret is to really present yourself like you have some true self esteem, not like a pompous ass, but you know, as if damnit you deserve to be learning or not there (you never say this out loud, you just have this air about you that says gimme work, teaching or lemme go).
Third year is lame but this is what worked for me.

I watched one of my classmates virtually act like a prostitute to get her high honors, and well, it worked for her (she was a runner when the chief was a runner, a musician when the chief was a musician, you get the idea). A little butt kissing can go a long way, but this chick was over the top. Baking cookies (I kid you not) for people, etc... Don't let it get you down, just be glad it's not you behaving this way.

 

[PreMedAdAG]

To the OP & premed: I don't know if you should really change too much. Lots of the students who gun really hard are in reality just acting the way that feels natural to them.

Instead, you might develop your own style of gunning it that gets you through. For instance, if you are strong at reading people and their moods, you will be able to tell which residents and attendings like to have their butts kissed and which hate it.

You can also stuff a bunch of ETOH pads, 4X4's, scissors and tape in your pocket (toolish I know) when on surgery and then you will run around less. This is really one of the few rotations where intensive floorwork requires lots of step & fetch-it action. You can ask properly timed, intelligent questions of the attendings and residents who grade you and offer to help your immediate senior (but do ask on the street 1st who the scut ****** are- offering to help them is like jumping into a black hole). This will go a lot lot farther than skiping down the hall looking for a chart like you're on an easter egg hunt. Think about it. The other secret is to really present yourself like you have some true self esteem, not like a pompous ass, but you know, as if damnit you deserve to be learning or not there (you never say this out loud, you just have this air about you that says gimme work, teaching or lemme go).
Third year is lame but this is what worked for me.

I watched one of my classmates virtually act like a prostitute to get her high honors, and well, it worked for her (she was a runner when the chief was a runner, a musician when the chief was a musician, you get the idea). A little butt kissing can go a long way, but this chick was over the top. Baking cookies (I kid you not) for people, etc... Don't let it get you down, just be glad it's not you behaving this way.

Well this rotation has been OVERTLY annoying - it's like a damn sorority - and I didn't get invited after RUSH - soooo stupid. Anyway - whatever - I'm just trying to get through it - realizing talking to attendings just isn't going to happen and all communication will be with residents - so I guess they are the ones evaluating me - whatever - this is not worth losing sleep over - I'm going to go have a glass of wine adn enjoy dinner 😉