Isn't this a little abrasive to be putting in the orientation handbook?

[Oogieboogie]

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This is a direct quote from my orientation handbook for one of my clerkship rotations:

“Think before you speak. Read before you think. This will give you something to think about that you did not just make up yourself. This is excellent advice at any stage of your education, but particularly in the third year of medical school, when you are in the greatest danger of coming to annoying conclusions.”

My initial reaction to this was: Christ, I certainly won't be piping up much. I certainly see how an attending would want a student to read up on a subject prior, but that attitude is a little abrasive.

What are your thoughts about the quote? Does it match your feelings toward how medical students should behave on rounds? For medical students, if that were included in your orientation handbook-- would that set an intimidating/negative tone for your rotation?

 

[TBV]

Gonna need tougher skin for these next few years

 

[psychMDhopefully]

.

 

[235009]

It was fine until the last sentence. Really it was just the word "annoying" that did it.


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[22031 Alum]

I actually would have preferred seeing this in an orientation handbook up front, as opposed to finding out the hard way that some attending equated being incorrect with being annoying.

I do expect my students to be somewhat prepared, and to be able to explain the reasoning behind their assessments (or answers, if I'm pimping). I think that's what the quote is getting at- just not in the way I would do it.

 

[Med Ed]

This is a direct quote from my orientation handbook for one of my clerkship rotations:

“Think before you speak. Read before you think. This will give you something to think about that you did not just make up yourself. This is excellent advice at any stage of your education, but particularly in the third year of medical school, when you are in the greatest danger of coming to annoying conclusions.”

My initial reaction to this was: Christ, I certainly won't be piping up much. I certainly see how an attending would want a student to read up on a subject prior, but that attitude is a little abrasive.

What are your thoughts about the quote? Does it match your feelings toward how medical students should behave on rounds? For medical students, if that were included in your orientation handbook-- would that set an intimidating/negative tone for your rotation?

My initial thought was "Damn, that site must have had some really annoying medical students rotate through." It might even be traceable to one person.

Oh well, nothing to do about it except put your head down and work hard.

 

[URHere]

Honestly, that quote made me laugh with its blunt honestly. Top of the list of things I miss about the East Coast.

No, I don't think it's too much. And yes, I do think it's important for MS3 students to realize that one of the hardest parts of their year will be figuring out how to balance their learning with everyone else's sanity.

 

[Goro]

Here's an example of abrasive, welling up from my New York soul:

Oh, you poor Millennials

This is some of the best advice you'll get anytime in your life. And the time for everyone getting a trophy is over.

This is a direct quote from my orientation handbook for one of my clerkship rotations:

“Think before you speak. Read before you think. This will give you something to think about that you did not just make up yourself. This is excellent advice at any stage of your education, but particularly in the third year of medical school, when you are in the greatest danger of coming to annoying conclusions.”

My initial reaction to this was: Christ, I certainly won't be piping up much. I certainly see how an attending would want a student to read up on a subject prior, but that attitude is a little abrasive.

What are your thoughts about the quote? Does it match your feelings toward how medical students should behave on rounds? For medical students, if that were included in your orientation handbook-- would that set an intimidating/negative tone for your rotation?

 

[Quaero]

This is a direct quote from my orientation handbook for one of my clerkship rotations:

“Think before you speak. Read before you think. This will give you something to think about that you did not just make up yourself. This is excellent advice at any stage of your education, but particularly in the third year of medical school, when you are in the greatest danger of coming to annoying conclusions.”

My initial reaction to this was: Christ, I certainly won't be piping up much. I certainly see how an attending would want a student to read up on a subject prior, but that attitude is a little abrasive.

What are your thoughts about the quote? Does it match your feelings toward how medical students should behave on rounds? For medical students, if that were included in your orientation handbook-- would that set an intimidating/negative tone for your rotation?

Wow, the writer is annoying.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

It doesn't really make sense though. What are "annoying" conclusions? Do they mean incorrect conclusions without any reasoning behind them? Because if they mean that, then that's what they should put. Just because you say something that's incorrect doesn't mean it's automatically an "annoying conclusion".

I agree, the writer sounds annoying to me.

 

[IslandStyle808]

As a person who has been a tutor and teaching assistant for several years, it takes a thick skin to teach students. I have dealt with students from elementary school to college. If you ask me which students I prefer to teaching, my answer would be "the highest educational level possible." However, I see tutoring kids as more of a challenge and I want to improve myself as a teacher. If the writer is annoyed by medical students, I could not imagine how he would react if he worked with the students that I handle.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Here's an example of abrasive, welling up from my New York soul:

Oh, you poor Millennials

This is some of the best advice you'll get anytime in your life. And the time for everyone getting a trophy is over.

Ya we need to toughen up to deal with the mess your generation will be leaving us with.

 

[Tenk]

The handbook should have just been a url: www.uptodate.com.

 

[mimelim]

Personally, whoever wrote that is an idiot. Just from a word choice and communication perspective, they are being less effective than they could be. I understand why they put that there, I just think that their delivery was terrible.

I expect my medical students to think. I also expect them to read. But, I also realize that sometimes the most effective way for them to learn something is to ask questions. What I ask in return is for them to realize that by that same token, sometimes the most effective way for them to learn is to think about what they are asking and/or read. Sometimes, it isn't appropriate to pipe up in a conference to ask something that is easily googleable.

My best example: "How do you dose tramadol?" This is a bad question. It is a waste of space question. It is frustrating to get 3-4 of those a day for weeks on end. The better question is, "How do you figure out how to dose medications?" I am more than happy to talk to someone about what resources I use or my system. I want my students to be more self sufficient. I want them to be able to solve problems on their own and not depend on me to tell them how to do each step. It is frightening to me that some students (and interns for that matter) don't have the confidence that they could even possibly figure it out on their own and feel compelled to have an authority explain it to them de novo.

 

[Terry Toma]

Progress is dependent upon people making, discussing, and testing assertions beyond what they can immediately infer from their readings. You should absolutely inform yourself, but human knowledge stagnates if we refuse to make things up on our own for fear of being "annoying." (Isn't a hypothesis at least in part something that a researcher made up on their own?)

Regarding med students being annoying, well, they're the ones paying for your services. Students are going to be an imposition. The right to be such is a major portion of what they are paying for when they hand over their tuition checks. There is certainly a limit to the level of annoyance that should be accepted from any given student, but if inquisitiveness leads to the occasional "annoying conclusion," I would say that this imposition is more than covered by the price of admission.

 

[sunealoneal]

Here's an example of abrasive, welling up from my New York soul:

Oh, you poor Millennials

This is some of the best advice you'll get anytime in your life. And the time for everyone getting a trophy is over.

I've never cared for the characterization of millennials as the "participation trophy" generation. In fact I've never cared for the negative connotations surrounding participation trophies. Nothing wrong with giving 8 or 9 year olds little trophies for playing basketball or soccer.

But perhaps I've been luckier than most regarding who I surrounded myself with or maybe I just have terrible insight. I feel like every generation calls the next one coddled, but maybe we're just nicer 😉

In all seriousness though, OP's advice sounds like it's geared towards the people who ask questions for the sake of asking questions... Which is already annoying.

 

[mimelim]

I've never cared for the characterization of millennials as the "participation trophy" generation. In fact I've never cared for the negative connotations surrounding participation trophies. Nothing wrong with giving 8 or 9 year olds little trophies for playing basketball or soccer.

But perhaps I've been luckier than most regarding who I surrounded myself with or maybe I just have terrible insight. I feel like every generation calls the next one coddled, but maybe we're just nicer 😉

In all seriousness though, OP's advice sounds like it's geared towards the people who ask questions for the sake of asking questions... Which is already annoying.

Just wait until you have medical students/interns/junior residents wanting credit for the work they did, despite not actually producing something and increasing the amount of work that you have to do. Which is fine, it is a part of the learning process. But, then deal with the, "But, I tried and I'm leaving now for my haircut/massage/kid's birthday/whatever." Leaving you to clean up after them.

 

[Psai]

Just wait until you have medical students/interns/junior residents wanting credit for the work they did, despite not actually producing something and increasing the amount of work that you have to do. Which is fine, it is a part of the learning process. But, then deal with the, "But, I tried and I'm leaving now for my haircut/massage/kid's birthday/whatever." Leaving you to clean up after them.

You're a saint

 

[PL198]

ITT baby boomers or gen x complaining about millennials and their participation trophies is definition of irrational. Who created those trophies? Not the 10 yr old kids receiving them.

Look in a mirror. Children don't create the culture they grow up in.

 

[Hangry]

Just wait until you have medical students/interns/junior residents wanting credit for the work they did, despite not actually producing something and increasing the amount of work that you have to do. Which is fine, it is a part of the learning process. But, then deal with the, "But, I tried and I'm leaving now for my haircut/massage/kid's birthday/whatever." Leaving you to clean up after them.

You have integrated vascular residents that pull that s***? Wouldn't have seen that coming with the territory.

 

[frosted_flake]

Perhaps the writer is referring to those types of kids who just ask stupid ass questions in class for the sake of asking?

We all know that person.....

 

[mimelim]

You have integrated vascular residents that pull that s***? Wouldn't have seen that coming with the territory.

We have MS3, MS4, PA students, PA residents, IVS residents, GS residents, PRS residents, nephrology fellows, transplant fellows, etc. We groom that stuff out of our guys because we have them a lot their intern year. Can't say the same for others that aren't ours. Not because we don't want to, but you can only do so much one month at a time.

 

[cherubb3]

I think that while this is probably good advice for some students, it is not only a little too abrasive for an "official" handbook, it will also probably not change the behavior of the most "annoying" students.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Just wait until you have medical students/interns/junior residents wanting credit for the work they did, despite not actually producing something and increasing the amount of work that you have to do. Which is fine, it is a part of the learning process. But, then deal with the, "But, I tried and I'm leaving now for my haircut/massage/kid's birthday/whatever." Leaving you to clean up after them.

lol "sorry it didn't get done man, but I've gotta go catch my massage" classic

 

[mimelim]

lol "sorry it didn't get done man, but I've gotta go catch my massage" classic

Gen Surg, PGY2 as to why they couldn't stay in the SICU to give sign out, forcing the other resident to sign out their patients for them because the night resident was stuck in traffic. Excuse? "I made this appointment months ago and already paid for it." Now, why someone would schedule anything at 6pm is well beyond my imagination.

You can't make this stuff up...

 

[aim-agm]

Gen Surg, PGY2 as to why they couldn't stay in the SICU to give sign out, forcing the other resident to sign out their patients for them because the night resident was stuck in traffic. Excuse? "I made this appointment months ago and already paid for it." Now, why someone would schedule anything at 6pm is well beyond my imagination.

You can't make this stuff up...

I'm pretty sure "Hey, I know I have a massage scheduled for 6, but I have to help keep a person alive. Would it be possible to reschedule it for later tonight or another day?" should work approximately 100% of the time.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Gen Surg, PGY2 as to why they couldn't stay in the SICU to give sign out, forcing the other resident to sign out their patients for them because the night resident was stuck in traffic. Excuse? "I made this appointment months ago and already paid for it." Now, why someone would schedule anything at 6pm is well beyond my imagination.

You can't make this stuff up...

Yeah if I was the one he/she was trying to make sign out their patients because they didn't want to call the massage place...NOPE. Sometimes I just don't know...

 

[evilbooyaa]

ITT baby boomers or gen x complaining about millennials and their participation trophies is definition of irrational. Who created those trophies? Not the 10 yr old kids receiving them.

Look in a mirror. Children don't create the culture they grow up in.

So much this in regards to the 'lol millenials' attitude from every baby boomer.

Ya we need to toughen up to deal with the mess your generation will be leaving us with.

+1. Baby Boomers - First generation to have it, in general, better than their kids/grandkids did.

To the OP - yeah a little blunt, and poorly worded. However, if it's meant to stop the one person who asks the obvious questions through M1 and M2 and annoys the rest of the class, then I see the purpose of it. However, poorly worded and will make students somewhat less interested in asking ANY questions of their preceptor at that specific site.

 

[atomi]

Gen Surg, PGY2 as to why they couldn't stay in the SICU to give sign out, forcing the other resident to sign out their patients for them because the night resident was stuck in traffic. Excuse? "I made this appointment months ago and already paid for it." Now, why someone would schedule anything at 6pm is well beyond my imagination.

You can't make this stuff up...

My story trumps yours: The psych intern rotating on medicine who pulled me in off an elective to cover because he "was sick" and signed out to me during walk rounds then went home. I thought I was taking signout from a senior resident for someone who called in sick before I realized I was actually taking signout from some dude who decided he didn't want to be there anymore. I was livid that the chief resident permitted that and actually called me into to cover that b.s.

 

[tco]

That's the ANNOYING part about third year.

Some attendings are going to ask you pimp questions and, if you don't know the answer, they want you to say, "I don't know." And move on...

Some attendings want you to reason your way through it and come up with an educated guess or viable explanation.

You never know who you're dealing with until they tell you what they want you to do, which will probably be never.

 

[Mr Roboto]

Just wait until you have medical students/interns/junior residents wanting credit for the work they did, despite not actually producing something and increasing the amount of work that you have to do. Which is fine, it is a part of the learning process. But, then deal with the, "But, I tried and I'm leaving now for my haircut/massage/kid's birthday/whatever." Leaving you to clean up after them.

Show me a BMS who only triples my work and I will kiss his feet.

 

[username456789]

ITT baby boomers or gen x complaining about millennials and their participation trophies is definition of irrational. Who created those trophies? Not the 10 yr old kids receiving them.

Look in a mirror. Children don't create the culture they grow up in.

What about us 30-something gen-Yers who have not raised any of you babies, but are still embarrassed to see how spoiled most act?

 

[TBV]

What about us 30-something gen-Yers who have not raised any of you babies, but are still embarrassed to see how spoiled most act?

It's a great generation to be a part of though. All you have to do is not be a complete f*cking p*ssy and you can get ahead.

 

[PL198]

What about us 30-something gen-Yers who have not raised any of you babies, but are still embarrassed to see how spoiled most act?

then blame your peers and the baby boomers who raised the spoiled children that you don't like.

because again, I haven't seen too many 10 yr olds drive themselves to trophy shop and get participation trophies for them and their buddies.

 

[Donald Juan]

then blame your peers and the baby boomers who raised the spoiled children that you don't like.

because again, I haven't seen too many 10 yr olds drive themselves to trophy shop and get participation trophies for them and their buddies.

So, to be clear, when someone calls you (who's an adult, not a child) a whiny millennial who wants credit without responsibility, you counter with, "I wasn't the one who raised me this way! It's your fault!"

 

[Brorthopedic]

Soon enough the generation we raise won't even need to participate to get a trophy. Let's just get rid of the whole idea while we're at it as it promotes inequality...

One of the reasons I'm excited for third year is to watch how certain, self-privileged, people in my class react to the harsh realities that govern it

 

[PL198]

So, to be clear, when someone calls you (who's an adult, not a child) a whiny millennial who wants credit without responsibility, you counter with, "I wasn't the one who raised me this way! It's your fault!"

no one calls me that.

re-read what I said. it's clear. children don't ask for participation trophies. its different if you're talking about 20 yr olds who are old enough where they choose how they act, but you want to put in terms of 10 yr olds getting participation trophies, that's all about how you were raised. so again, don't blame the kids who receive the trophies, blame the parents who want to give them.