it NEVER EVER ends

[terrybug]

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Heading into the postdoc application part of my training and all the frustration and uncertainty I felt when I first applied to grad school and again last year for internship have bubbled right back up.

I can get why grad schools put so much emphasis on GRE scores up front because you have to have ridiculous, unending amounts of stamina to put up with all the steps in this process - and it's not like GRE scores are a perfect measure of intelligence - I think they're a good measure of willingness to learn and tolerate distress. I feel bad for people with terrible study/writing/attention skills trying to convince themselves and everyone around them that if they can just get into grad school, everything will be okay. Instead, grad school is just 1 part of the degree, and you have to re-prove yourself to a whole new set of advisors along the way.

Then there's all the moving around that's required. It's pricey, disruptive, and exhausting... and just part of the game. I feel like I'm still paying off bills from my internship interviews last year... and now it's time to start all over again.

 

[erg923]

Heading into the postdoc application part of my training and all the frustration and uncertainty I felt when I first applied to grad school and again last year for internship have bubbled right back up.

I can get why grad schools put so much emphasis on GRE scores up front because you have to have ridiculous, unending amounts of stamina to put up with all the steps in this process - and it's not like GRE scores are a perfect measure of intelligence - I think they're a good measure of willingness to learn and tolerate distress. I feel bad for people with terrible study/writing/attention skills trying to convince themselves and everyone around them that if they can just get into grad school, everything will be okay. Instead, grad school is just 1 part of the degree, and you have to re-prove yourself to a whole new set of advisors along the way.

Then there's all the moving around that's required. It's pricey, disruptive, and exhausting... and just part of the game. I feel like I'm still paying off bills from my internship interviews last year... and now it's time to start all over again.

Exactly why I didn't not play into the whole "post-doc" game. I got a job. I learn there too. 😀

 

[Pragma]

Then there's all the moving around that's required. It's pricey, disruptive, and exhausting... and just part of the game. I feel like I'm still paying off bills from my internship interviews last year... and now it's time to start all over again.

If it was anything like my postdoc interview experience, it will be much more "low-key" than internship interviews. I applied at fewer places and felt that there was less competition.

But as erg mentioned, doing a postdoc is not necessary in many cases. In my case, I wanted to be board eligible for neuropsych, so it behooved me to go that route. Plus, getting your licensure hours outside of a formal postdoc is somewhat of a headache. It was so easy to do all of that from a formal program.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

If it was anything like my postdoc interview experience, it will be much more "low-key" than internship interviews. I applied at fewer places and felt that there was less competition.

But as erg mentioned, doing a postdoc is not necessary in many cases. In my case, I wanted to be board eligible for neuropsych, so it behooved me to go that route. Plus, getting your licensure hours outside of a formal postdoc is somewhat of a headache. It was so easy to do all of that from a formal program.

+1 to all of the above. I actually somewhat enjoyed the postdoc interview process (at least looking back on it now), as it certainly felt like the applicants were much more in demand than was the case for internship. Beyond that, my pay actually isn't all that much less than what seems to be the norm for unlicensed newly-graduated practitioners, plus I get the added bonus of formal didactics (e.g., neuroanatomy courses), a formalized training plan, and--relatedly--an easy way to ensure and keep track of supervision hours.

The frequent moving does get annoying, though. I'm considering staying in my postdoc city (if possible) for no other reason than it'd save me yet another relocation.

 

[Pragma]

The frequent moving does get annoying, though. I'm considering staying in my postdoc city (if possible) for no other reason than it'd save me yet another relocation.

Looking back, I think I would view graduate school differently had I been forced to relocate. I applied to schools only in select cities I would want to live in and moved initially to a new city. But I have never moved since. I absolutely hate moving and also wasn't about to live apart from my wife, so I made it work. It was stressful during internship, postdoc, and job applications, but everything did work out (thanks to lots of networking over the years).

I recognize that this is not realistic for many people and that some areas won't have the training opportunities needed. But at least for me, viewing forced moves so negatively, I think if I had needed to move for internship that I'd be very bitter about it (for financial and personal reasons). Thankfully, I'm a happy camper!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Looking back, I think I would view graduate school differently had I been forced to relocate. I applied to schools only in select cities I would want to live in and moved initially to a new city. But I have never moved since. I absolutely hate moving and also wasn't about to live apart from my wife, so I made it work. It was stressful during internship, postdoc, and job applications, but everything did work out (thanks to lots of networking over the years).

I recognize that this is not realistic for many people and that some areas won't have the training opportunities needed. But at least for me, viewing forced moves so negatively, I think if I had needed to move for internship that I'd be very bitter about it (for financial and personal reasons). Thankfully, I'm a happy camper!

And from my end, as much as I hate moving, I actually enjoy living in different cities and am fairly "untethered" family-wise. Thus, beyond the actual moving process itself, I've liked having had the chance to experience three different locales for grad school, internship, and postdoc.

 

[Pragma]

And from my end, as much as I hate moving, I actually enjoy living in different cities and am fairly "untethered" family-wise. Thus, beyond the actual moving process itself, I've liked having had the chance to experience three different locales for grad school, internship, and postdoc.

It's definitely a bonus for some people 😀

But for me, I found a city I totally fell in love with and would not want to live anywhere else. I feel bad for people that do end up having to move and don't want to!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

It's definitely a bonus for some people 😀

But for me, I found a city I totally fell in love with and would not want to live anywhere else. I feel bad for people that do end up having to move and don't want to!

Agreed. I realize that I'm certainly not reflective of the norm, and I sympathize with trainees having to go through the multiple nearly-required moves in the context of uprooting families and/or putting long-term family planning ideas on hold.

I could see having to move for grad school, and perhaps then again for employment; this much would at least be semi-normal. But to have to do so potentially twice more for internship and post-doc (if it's not something you'd actually prefer) really is somewhat cruel.

Edit: And love the new avatar, btw.

 

[Pragma]

Edit: And love the new avatar, btw.

I think it takes true genius to understand the complexity of the dinosaur baby 😀

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNR4hKbSH7I

 

[LETSGONYR]

Yeah... I'm not all that happy about this. I'm also planning on going the neuropsych route, so a post-doc seems inevitable. I'm willing to go wherever will accept me for internship (and just applied all over to prove it), but for post-doc, I'm not going to be as flexible in terms of location. It's a longer commitment, of course, and from what I hear, it's when you really start making your professional connections and putting down roots for jobs and the like. Quite frankly, I don't want to live all that far from my family or in a place that I wouldn't want to settle. I'm not looking forward to post-doc applications. I understand it's less formal and not as huge a deal, but I'm just ready to feel like a grown-up.

 

[JWPoods]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I thought a postdoc was a requirement. Can somebody clarify this for me? When is it not necessary to do one?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yeah... I'm not all that happy about this. I'm also planning on going the neuropsych route, so a post-doc seems inevitable. I'm willing to go wherever will accept me for internship (and just applied all over to prove it), but for post-doc, I'm not going to be as flexible in terms of location. It's a longer commitment, of course, and from what I hear, it's when you really start making your professional connections and putting down roots for jobs and the like. Quite frankly, I don't want to live all that far from my family or in a place that I wouldn't want to settle. I'm not looking forward to post-doc applications. I understand it's less formal and not as huge a deal, but I'm just ready to feel like a grown-up.

I will say that, as a whole, the post-doc application process did indeed feel much more "grown up" than did internship interviews (not that the latter were in any way unprofessional, immature, etc., for me). There was much greater emphasis on, "so what is it you're looking to do long term and how can we help you get there based on what we have to offer you," which was refreshing.

And at least for me, the change in role from internship to post-doc has been much bigger than it was from grad school to internship. Regarding the latter, it felt very horizontal in many ways. With post-doc, on the other hand, I'm expected to know more and do more, and am afforded a commensurately greater level of independence. I also get my own office with my name on the door, which is pretty sweet (sort of sad how easy I am to please at this point).

 

[erg923]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I thought a postdoc was a requirement. Can somebody clarify this for me? When is it not necessary to do one?

Depends on state. My state does NOT require post-doc hours to become licensed. I actually am accumulating some hours under supervision though through my university CC (I am full-time faculty), cause I'm not taking EPPP (the national licensing exam) until next year.

Formal post-doc training is required for clinical neuropsychology.

 

[LETSGONYR]

I will say that, as a whole, the post-doc application process did indeed feel much more "grown up" than did internship interviews (not that the latter were in any way unprofessional, immature, etc., for me). There was much greater emphasis on, "so what is it you're looking to do long term and how can we help you get there based on what we have to offer you," which was refreshing.

And at least for me, the change in role from internship to post-doc has been much bigger than it was from grad school to internship. Regarding the latter, it felt very horizontal in many ways. With post-doc, on the other hand, I'm expected to know more and do more, and am afforded a commensurately greater level of independence. I also get my own office with my name on the door, which is pretty sweet (sort of sad how easy I am to please at this point).

I didn't mean to imply that internship interviews are unprofessional/immature/etc. I guess I'm just disillusioned with grad school in general... It's extremely frustrating to me to have no stability, to not be able to know where I'm going to be living in a few months and then again the year after that, etc. I'm ready for my name on a door, even though I'm just applying to internship now. 🙂.

 

[erg923]

I didn't mean to imply that internship interviews are unprofessional/immature/etc. I guess I'm just disillusioned with grad school in general... It's extremely frustrating to me to have no stability, to not be able to know where I'm going to be living in a few months and then again the year after that, etc. I'm ready for my name on a door, even though I'm just applying to internship now. 🙂.

I was very much the same way at your stage. 2 years later, and I DO have my name on a door (its even engraved 😀), and the change from grasshopper to actual job has helped extraordinarily with quality of life and my overall attitude. Probably wouldn't do it again though. You can PM me with questions or more discussion of the issue.

 

[Pragma]

I didn't mean to imply that internship interviews are unprofessional/immature/etc. I guess I'm just disillusioned with grad school in general... It's extremely frustrating to me to have no stability, to not be able to know where I'm going to be living in a few months and then again the year after that, etc. I'm ready for my name on a door, even though I'm just applying to internship now. 🙂.

From internship to postdoc to job, there was a gradual increase in quality of office space (and quality of my name on the door 😀).

The salary jump is marginal from internship to postdoc in most cases. The salary jump from postdoc to actual job was enormous. I can tell you that I am much, much happier and at ease than I was during internship and postdoc. Postdoc was a little better, but I was still at a place where they worked you crazy hours.

 

[LETSGONYR]

I was very much the same way at your stage. 2 years later, and I DO have my name on a door (its even engraved 😀), and the change from grasshopper to actual job has helped extraordinarily with quality of life and my overall attitude. Probably wouldn't do it again though. You can PM me with questions or more discussion of the issue.

I don't really have any specific questions... I know the process already. I'm fairly confident that I'm a good candidate for internship, and I know people that have gone through the post-doc process. My acceptable geographic area for post-doc ranges from DC to Boston; there are several programs in that area and hopefully I'll be able to match to one of them. It's definitely relieving to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and that people are happier once they get through this. 🙂.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

And from my end, as much as I hate moving, I actually enjoy living in different cities and am fairly "untethered" family-wise. Thus, beyond the actual moving process itself, I've liked having had the chance to experience three different locales for grad school, internship, and postdoc.

Same. It was a PITA at the time, but I ended up really enjoying everywhere I moved. As for the post-doc/fellowship interview process....some places will fly you out and treat it much more like a job recruitment, while other will not. 🙄 I did the majority of my interviews at INS, but for some non-match sites they covered some/all of my expenses. Interviews for post-doc/fellowship were FAR more enjoyable than internship, as places seemed much more interested in me as an applicant (often 1 of a handful of finalists, not 1 of 60 applicants who made the cut).

ps. Pragma...my internship to fellowship $ almost doubled, but when you get paid so poorly for internship, it really isn't that much. 🙁 I went to a higher cost of living area, so the $ was wiped out by the cost of living difference. My jump from fellowship to real job was nice though. 😀

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Same. It was a PITA at the time, but I ended up really enjoying everywhere I moved. As for the post-doc/fellowship interview process....some places will fly you out and treat it much more like a job recruitment, while other will not. 🙄 I did the majority of my interviews at INS, but for some non-match sites they covered some/all of my expenses. Interviews for post-doc/fellowship were FAR more enjoyable than internship, as places seemed much more interested in me as an applicant (often 1 of a handful of finalists, not 1 of 60 applicants who made the cut).

ps. Pragma...my internship to fellowship $ almost doubled, but when you get paid so poorly for internship, it really isn't that much. 🙁 I went to a higher cost of living area, so the $ was wiped out by the cost of living difference. My jump from fellowship to real job was nice though. 😀

Agreed on the feelings regarding interviewing. This isn't at all to speak negatively about internship sites (they're simply doing the best with the system they've got to work in, and most do a remarkable job overall), but postdoc interviews definitely made me feel more like a person and less like chattel. And this even when, like T4C, most of my interviews occurred over a five-day span at INS. The training directors just seemed to have more time and resources to devote to each interviewee, and it very much showed.

I can certainly understand about just wanting to feel settled, though. What I can say is that I feel much more so now than I did on internship; even more than I expected, actually. Part of that is no doubt due to the fact that after this, there's no "next step" per se other than just finding a job (and of course board certification, tenure if that's applicable, etc., etc....). But I believe a lot of it also has to do with the general atmosphere of the postdoc I accepted.

 

[Pragma]

Same. It was a PITA at the time, but I ended up really enjoying everywhere I moved. As for the post-doc/fellowship interview process....some places will fly you out and treat it much more like a job recruitment, while other will not. 🙄 I did the majority of my interviews at INS, but for some non-match sites they covered some/all of my expenses. Interviews for post-doc/fellowship were FAR more enjoyable than internship, as places seemed much more interested in me as an applicant (often 1 of a handful of finalists, not 1 of 60 applicants who made the cut).

ps. Pragma...my internship to fellowship $ almost doubled, but when you get paid so poorly for internship, it really isn't that much. 🙁 I went to a higher cost of living area, so the $ was wiped out by the cost of living difference. My jump from fellowship to real job was nice though. 😀

Yeah I qualified the statement because there is definitely variability. VA and BoP come to mind. In my case, my internship paid above average and postdoc paid below average, resulting in a not so meaningful bump. But of course, it went up considerably following postdoc.

When I was looking for jobs, I noted tons of postdoc listings. Places like the cheap and highly competent labor, IMO.

 

[terrybug]

Glad to hear the postdoc interview process won't feel as hectic as the internship experience. It still means begging for letters of rec, hearing a million opinions on how to format a CV, and writing up cover letters... activities I will never feel good about doing.
True - moving around has given me the opportunity to live in some diverse places...it's good to remember that sometimes.

 

[2012PhD]

For me, the post-doctoral process is more frustrating and anxiety provoking so far than internship because there is no uniform application, good number sites now require essays (WTF?), and you are applying against the "cream of the crop" (those that landed apa internships). You would think that it would be less competitive, but in my state there are over 100 applicants, some even have 400 applicants, and fewer spots overall. Plus, I can't apply to many sites since i'm geographically limited this year. What are people with spouses and kids supposed to do? This field is really unfriendly to people with families.

Does anyone know if 7 sites is enough?

I'm totally annoyed with this process and really worried about getting licensed in a state that has rigorous licensure requirements.

What do folks do if they don't land a post-doc in a state that requires 4 hours of supervision, 1500-1700 hours?

 

[erg923]

For me, the post-doctoral process is more frustrating and anxiety provoking so far than internship because there is no uniform application, good number sites now require essays (WTF?), and you are applying against the "cream of the crop" (those that landed apa internships). You would think that it would be less competitive, but in my state there are over 100 applicants, some even have 400 applicants, and fewer spots overall. Plus, I can't apply to many sites since i'm geographically limited this year. What are people with spouses and kids supposed to do? This field is really unfriendly to people with families.

Does anyone know if 7 sites is enough?

I'm totally annoyed with this process and really worried about getting licensed in a state that has rigorous licensure requirements.

What do folks do if they don't land a post-doc in a state that requires 4 hours of supervision, 1500-1700 hours?

A member of my internship cohort applied to 12 VA post-doc sites. She got 4 interviews and no offers. The two others also found it more competitive than everyone kept saying it was going to be.

I feel your pain/attitude. Part of why I refused to play that game. I was gunning for a certain state (and a certain city in that state, ideally) that had almost no formal post-training programs.

 

[2012PhD]

A member of my internship cohort applied to 12 VA post-doc sites. She got 4 interviews and no offers. The two others also found it more competitive than everyone kept saying it was going to be.

I feel your pain/attitude. Part of why I refused to play that game. I was gunning for a certain state (and a certain city in that state, ideally) that had almost no formal post-training programs.

more than 50% of the interns from my VA internship site did not land post-docs last year. I don't understand how people are supposed to get licensed in states that require lots of hours and supervision.

 

[erg923]

more than 50% of the interns from my VA internship site did not land post-docs last year. I don't understand how people are supposed to get licensed in states that require lots of hours and supervision.

My state no longer requires any of that nonsense, fortunately. I was granted provisional license to practice within one month of completing internship by sending in alot of documentation (not an insane amount really, just enough to make it a light pain in the ass) to my state psych board. Have one year to take and pass EPPP and pass the oral exam.

 

[Rivi]

more than 50% of the interns from my VA internship site did not land post-docs last year. I don't understand how people are supposed to get licensed in states that require lots of hours and supervision.

Jeez. So WTF are you supposed to do in the meantime if you don't land a post-doc?

 

[Pragma]

Jeez. So WTF are you supposed to do in the meantime if you don't land a post-doc?

Well if you live in a state like erg's, all you need to do is take the EPPP. In other states, I have known people who didn't do fomral postdocs, but got hired somewhere where they continued to get supervision (e.g., VA, CMHC, agency). In some states (sounds super shady), people actually can pay people to supervise them. Sounds like even more of a racket...