"It's not what you know it's who you know"

[flatearth22]

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Came across this wedding announcement on NYT - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/f...n-pete-duncan-weddings.html?_r=2&ref=weddings

The couple are both students at Yale School of Medicine and they both have parents employed by Yale with the bridegroom's mother working as the associate dean for admissions and financial aid:

Elisa Mead Jorgensen and Daniel Rowe Duncan were married Saturday at the First Congregational Church in Guilford, Conn. The Rev. Dr. Kendrick L. Norris, a minister of the United Church of Christ, officiated.

The bride, 26, and the bridegroom, 27, are medical students at Yale, where she is in her third year of studies and he in his fourth.

Ms. Jorgensen, who is keeping her name, graduated from the University of Michigan. She is a daughter of Judith M. Jorgensen of Killingworth, Conn., and William L. Jorgensen of Deep River, Conn. The bride's father is a professor of chemistry at Yale. Her mother is a psychologist in private practice in Madison, Conn. The bride is a stepdaughter of Erin Duffy Jorgensen.

Mr. Duncan, who is known as Pete, graduated from Stanford, where he was a Howard Hughes Medical Institute Medical Research Fellow in 2010. He is a son of Dr. Laura R. Ment and Dr. Charles C. Duncan of New Haven. The bridegroom's parents work at Yale School of Medicine, his mother as a pediatric neurologist, a professor of pediatrics and neurology and the associate dean for admissions and financial aid, and his father as a pediatric neurosurgeon, a professor of pediatrics and neurosurgery and the director of the neurosurgery residency program.

Of course.....Yale is the school that let in this guy because of legacy status:

 

[mipp0]

First... in what is sure to be epic ordinary flatearth thread.

We get into such verbal spats about race affirmative action, why not have an intellectual dialogue about legacy affirmative action?

 

[gmcguitar4]

IMO, legacy plays a huge role still whether we like to recognize it or not. Especially at ivy leagues.

 

[Bartemius]

Maybe they're both just really smart and stuff and worked hard to get where they are.

But no...that's far too simple an explanation...it's gotta be the legacy thing 🙄

 

[sibitrum]

From what I've gleaned, it seems that just being a legacy is a lot less important for getting into med school than for undergrad. However, if you're more than a legacy, such as you have parents who are on the faculty, know adcom members, etc., this can really help.

 

[RollTide22]

Looking at their picture, I am going to say that, in this case, I bet they earned their admittance to Yale (i.e. academic wizards).

[yes, stereotyping on appearance]

👍

I was going to post something almost identical to this but decided against it because I didn't want to risk offending the supposed 0.1% of ugly SDNers.

 

[flatearth22]

Looking at their picture, I am going to say that, in this case, I bet they earned their admittance to Yale (i.e. academic wizards).

[yes, stereotyping on appearance... I mean look at the size of the brain on that guy. 😛]

Common misconception. Intelligence is actually positively correlated with physical attractiveness:

However, there is this positive correlation between physical attractiveness and intelligence. Study done by Kanazawa in Britain found that after controlling factors such as race, social class, body type and health, beautiful man on average has an IQ score about 13.6 higher than the average looking man. While beautiful women have an IQ score about 11.4 higher than the average looking woman. This correlation also holds true in US, although to a lesser extend. Statics show that intelligence have a stronger correlation with physical appearance than other factors, and it seems that physical appearance correlate stronger in man's intelligence than in women's intelligence. Furthermore, Kanazawa suggested that there might be an examination for this phenomenon. Intelligent men are more likely to be financially successful than their average counterpart. Wealthy men are more likely to marry beautiful women and given that both intelligence and physical appearance are more inheritable. Their children are more likely to be both beautiful and intelligent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness_stereotype

 

[SellerAl]

This thread bothers me, is there any evidence at all that these two are not extremely qualified to be Yale medical students? I remind you that Yale certainly thought that they deserved it based on their application, perhaps legacy helped, any for all I know you are right, but there's no reason to think that. I think this should be deleted based on its thread title alone.

 

[flatearth22]

the first pic looks like Kenny McCormick's IRL parents

 

[deleted307836]

Flatearth, do you get google alerts for NYT marriage announcements with the word "medical" in them? Just asking as this is your second "interesting" finding... 😉

 

[EBTrailRunner]

Are we discussing whether legacy status is solely responsible for their admittance to Yale or whether it is a contributing factor? I'd be wary of the former. Irrespective of who their parents are, they'd still be expected to have exceptional qualifications. IMO, having parents who are faculty gives you an edge not so much by association, but because you have an insider's perspective on what the admissions committee is looking for in an ideal candidate.

 

[flatearth22]

Flatearth, do you get google alerts for NYT marriage announcements with the word "medical" in them? Just asking as this is your second "interesting" finding... 😉

Haha....something like that. Found another one you might be interested in: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/f...ngs&adxnnlx=1323729654-N5zU8ArCU6LjfEnoYj+91A

 

[SellerAl]

I don't think it's right to have this discussion by specifically singling out somebody's actual wedding announcement.

 

[nadaba]

Haha....something like that. Found another one you might be interested in: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/f...ngs&adxnnlx=1323729654-N5zU8ArCU6LjfEnoYj+91A

Talk about a power couple. We are not worthy.

 

[flatearth22]

I don't think it's right to have this discussion by specifically singling out somebody's actual wedding announcement.

If it was just 1 parent employed by the university I wouldn't have posted it. The fact that it's 3 of the 4 parents including 2 by the med school and 1 actually working as associate dean of admissions......it's pretty eye opening.

Also the couple chose to make their wedding announcement public by submitting it to NYT. It's not like we're invading their privacy.

 

[SellerAl]

If it was just 1 parent employed by the university I wouldn't have posted it. The fact that it's 3 of the 4 parents including 2 by the med school and 1 actually working as associate dean of admissions......it's pretty eye opening.

Also the couple chose to make their wedding announcement public by having it on NYT. It's not like we're invading their privacy.

You can call it eye opening or suspicious, but neither of us know anything about any of the people involved, so your speculation seems in poor taste, and I'm sure it would upset them to read all the above. If you want to post a thread about the influences of legacy on admission that's fine, but posting somebody's wedding announcement with that title you chose to use is disrespectful.

 

[flatearth22]

You can call it eye opening or suspicious, but neither of us know anything about any of the people involved, so your speculation seems in poor taste, and I'm sure it would upset them to read all the above. If you want to post a thread about the influences of legacy on admission that's fine, but posting somebody's wedding announcement with that title you chose to use is disrespectful.

I'll admit the choice of thread title wasn't the best....I was expecting the discussion to [hopefully] segue to legacy admissions with the wedding announcement serving as a catalyst and not the focal point.

 

[SellerAl]

I'll admit the choice of thread title wasn't the best....I was expecting the discussion to [hopefully] segue to legacy admissions with the wedding announcement serving as a catalyst and not the focal point.

I fully believe you had no bad intentions.

 

[LizzyM]

I've seen some applications that were real doozies coming from faculty member's kids. I've seen others that were exceptional applicants and that I hoped would matriculate here. Would it surprise you to know that having a parent (or two) on the faculty does not mean you will get in on the first try or that you will get in at all?

There are thousands of faculty members at Yale when you add all the departments (not just the medical school but all the schools). Is it that unusual that applicants want to attend a med school close to their support network (family, friends)? Is it unusual that two people who attend the same medical school would meet and fall in love? Aren't the odds of compatability & marriage increased when the couple come from similar background (socioeconomic/racial/cultural/parents in academia)?

 

[zma21]

Know of a girl that just was accepted into University of Illinois with a 2.9 and a 25 MCAT.

Her mom is faculty.

A+ personality and drive though. Serious. She was always just very average at school, even in highschool.

 

[IlDestriero]

Awesome.👍

 

[IMSingular]

He:
Age 27
Graduated from Stanford 2007
MD/PHD and MD/M.H.P Student
Matriculated in 2008
She:
Age 26
Graduated from Michigan 2007
She MD Student
Matriculated in 2009

Seems to have finished High School in the same year(2003). May have been highschool sweethearts.

http://www.yale.edu/printer/bulletin/htmlfiles/med/enrollment-for-2010-2011.html

 

[Knocked Up]

Just want to add a few things

1) 👍 Frazier, you are funny as s***

2) This thread is useless without MCAT scores

3) I actually just spoke with both Dan "the man" and Harvey. They just wanted to let you know that they are working on the remix to "I'm sexy and I know it".

 

[gettheleadout]

2) This thread is useless without MCAT scores

🙄

 

[Sophocles]

I know in some schools like University of Miami and Columbia, they pretty much automatically except any dependents (wife and kids). And, if your an officer, tuition is free to an extent. So they will pay for a large percentage of it. I don't feel that this is a bad thing, neither do I feel that this is a direct result from socioeconomic backgrounds. There is too much of a coincidence to believe that. It is what it is...

 

[illegallysmooth]

I always get the best table at the Peek-a-boo Lounge. So, yes.

 

[Myuu]

Aren't you supposed to be applying to med school or something?

 

[Professor Deej]

We get into such verbal spats about race affirmative action, why not have an intellectual dialogue about legacy affirmative action?

👍

I've seen some applications that were real doozies coming from faculty member's kids. I've seen others that were exceptional applicants and that I hoped would matriculate here. Would it surprise you to know that having a parent (or two) on the faculty does not mean you will get in on the first try or that you will get in at all?

There are thousands of faculty members at Yale when you add all the departments (not just the medical school but all the schools). Is it that unusual that applicants want to attend a med school close to their support network (family, friends)? Is it unusual that two people who attend the same medical school would meet and fall in love? Aren't the odds of compatability & marriage increased when the couple come from similar background (socioeconomic/racial/cultural/parents in academia)?

Although you bring up valid points about students wanting to attend a school where they will be close to family, I don't really understand what this has to do with whether or not they are actually given an unfair "edge" due to family. I'm sure that all of them don't get in because of it, but I'm still curious as to how many family members of the "higher-ranking" faculty members are given an "edge."

I know this is slightly-off topic, but:

If they are given an edge over other qualified applicants simply because they are blood-related to someone who works at the uni, then I don't see how this is any different from getting a race-related edge in the admissions process. Since there are "thousands" of faculty members at a school, I can't help but wonder what percentage of matriculants were given an edge due to blood-relations. Race accounts for what?... maybe 3-5% of accepted students. I would be interested to see the real stats on legacy admissions, because connections more often than not attribute to a person's success in life. It may comfort some when they turn the blind eye and continuously tell themselves "Oh no... Hard work and intelligence are the key. Connections are barely a factor". 🙄 But I call BS, others can believe that Disney Channel bologna if they want. One look at the last 4 or 5 U.S. Presidents should clear up THAT delusion. It boggles my mind when I see people rip apart race-related affirmative action WHILE whole-heartedly defending blood-related affirmative action. A lot of people don't even have valid reasons for defending it. They simply try to sweep it under the rug with weak comments like "Wellllll... it doesn't help that many people, soooo..." Ugh!... I just don't get it.

**(And No, I wasn't targeting Lizzy in this last paragraph. I'm talking about the comments of people from previous threads on the subject).**

Well that's my input/rant.... Off to study for finals!

 

[IlDestriero]

I know in some schools like University of Miami and Columbia, they pretty much automatically except any dependents (wife and kids). And, if your an officer, tuition is free to an extent. So they will pay for a large percentage of it. I don't feel that this is a bad thing, neither do I feel that this is a direct result from socioeconomic backgrounds. There is too much of a coincidence to believe that. It is what it is...

It is very common to have a large tuition benefit for dependents of faculty. I have a 75% tuition reimbursement for my kids, at a very expensive private university. It can be a huge benefit depending on your family size, and you usually only have to be on staff for a couple years to qualify. As for legacy admits, it's absolutely a factor for undergraduate admissions, but not necessarily a significant factor for professional school. However, if my kid(s)had the numbers and weren't admitted, I would be a little annoyed. I would be much more upset if my kids were qualified, but did not match into the residency program. That's just a slap in the face, and would necessitate a move.

 

[LizzyM]

👍




Although you bring up valid points about students wanting to attend a school where they will be close to family, I don't really understand what this has to do with whether or not they are actually given an unfair "edge" due to family. I'm sure that all of them don't get in because of it, but I'm still curious as to how many family members of the "higher-ranking" faculty members are given an "edge."

What I'm saying is that if you parents on the faculty, that means that they live in the area. If you have choices, let's say WashU, Yale and Duke and your parents are on the faculty at Yale, which school are you likely to choose if being close to family is important? It has nothing to do with an edge but everything to do with a highly sought after applicant making a choice that naturally puts him/her at the school were a parent is on the faculty.

I have seen relatives (even distant relatives by marriage) at least given the courtesy of an interview. If they sparkle and have a lot going for them, they might get in as long as the numbers aren't horrible (and by horrible I mean in the range of "no one of your ethnicity has ever gotten into any med school with those numbers"). With horrible numbers, no amount of sparkle is going to reassure the school that the applicant has what it takes.

 

[Neurosis]

well then I'm in trouble, curse my introversion and general social awkwardness. 🙁

 

[Professor Deej]

What I'm saying is that if you parents on the faculty, that means that they live in the area. If you have choices, let's say WashU, Yale and Duke and your parents are on the faculty at Yale, which school are you likely to choose if being close to family is important? It has nothing to do with an edge but everything to do with a highly sought after applicant making a choice that naturally puts him/her at the school were a parent is on the faculty.

I have seen relatives (even distant relatives by marriage) at least given the courtesy of an interview. If they sparkle and have a lot going for them, they might get in as long as the numbers aren't horrible (and by horrible I mean in the range of "no one of your ethnicity has ever gotten into any med school with those numbers"). With horrible numbers, no amount of sparkle is going to reassure the school that the applicant has what it takes.

😱 Oh wow... So relatives are given an "edge" over other qualified applicants because of who they are related to. I never thought it would apply to distant relatives by marriage, but I will definitely take your word for it. This legacy thing seems to be worse than I thought. 🙁

 

[Myuu]

😱 Oh wow... So relatives are given an "edge" over other qualified applicants because of who they are related to. I never thought it would apply to distant relatives by marriage, but I will definitely take your word for it. This legacy thing seems to be worse than I thought. 🙁

Ever heard of a pity interview?

 

[vickpick]

Meh, they don't look spoiled. They probably got in on their merits.

 

[LizzyM]

Ever heard of a pity interview?

👍

 

[Professor Deej]

Ever heard of a pity interview?

A pity interview is better than no interview. At least you have a ray of hope.

 

[Freakfarm0]

Came across this wedding announcement on NYT - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/f...n-pete-duncan-weddings.html?_r=2&ref=weddings

The couple are both students at Yale School of Medicine and they both have parents employed by Yale with the bridegroom's mother working as the associate dean for admissions and financial aid:

Of course.....Yale is the school that let in this guy because of legacy status:

Enough with the NYTimes marriage threads. We all know you read big boy newspapers. Congratulations. Stop polluting the forum.

 

[Knocked Up]

What I'm saying is that if you parents on the faculty, that means that they live in the area. If you have choices, let's say WashU, Yale and Duke and your parents are on the faculty at Yale, which school are you likely to choose if being close to family is important? It has nothing to do with an edge but everything to do with a highly sought after applicant making a choice that naturally puts him/her at the school were a parent is on the faculty.

I have seen relatives (even distant relatives by marriage) at least given the courtesy of an interview. If they sparkle and have a lot going for them, they might get in as long as the numbers aren't horrible (and by horrible I mean in the range of "no one of your ethnicity has ever gotten into any med school with those numbers"). With horrible numbers, no amount of sparkle is going to reassure the school that the applicant has what it takes.

Wait, what type of LizzyM composite scores are talking about here. Are you talking about LizzyM composites of ANY medical school, or the Particular school in reference. If we are talking about yale I would think they would need at least a 70 combined (being that they look white to me). Any medical school, I would probably say around the 60-61 mark. That's a pretty big variation.

 

[LizzyM]

Wait, what type of LizzyM composite scores are talking about here. Are you talking about LizzyM composites of ANY medical school, or the Particular school in reference. If we are talking about yale I would think they would need at least a 70 combined (being that they look white to me). Any medical school, I would probably say around the 60-61 mark. That's a pretty big variation.

If you look at https://www.aamc.org/download/157958/data/table25-w-mcatgpa-grid-white-0810.pdf.pdf you'll see that some white applicants do get admitted with LizzyM scores less than 50. It is rare but it happens. As I think back, the lowest "legacy" I've seen successful at my place have been in the low 60s whereas our LizzyM is above 70. In every case, the interview has been excellent and the are often other experiences that the applicant brings to the table that go beyond the numbers.

It is rare and I'd estimate that it makes up <1% of the matriculating class if that is any consolation.

 

[IMSingular]

... "no one of your ethnicity has ever gotten into any med school with those numbers").

That's very low bar. I would say if they had better stats than the average stats for Yale then that should be OK. GPA and MCAT are objective though how the scores are distributed could be looked at subjectively. Interview, interpretation of LOR and evaluation of EC is subjective and leaves lot of room for shananigans.

Looks like Daniel got in fair and square though there might have been some push to get into MD/PhD. I say this because he didn't get in immidiately after graduation from Stanford. But then again he may have taken time for volunteering. I know of case who worked Chicago Ghetto school for two years inspite of being addmitted to PhD program at Chicago University; he got differement to do the social work.

On otherhand Elisa took two years after graduation from Michigan to get into Yale medical school. There is some likelyhood that she might have got some push. But this is all speculation. If there is some one here on SDN from Yale Medical school he/she may be able to shed more light.

 

[Myuu]

A pity interview is better than no interview. At least you have a ray of hope.

I think you have misunderstood. Pity interviews go to those that probably wouldn't be qualified to enter the school (at all), but have some legacy (or other) connection to the school. It is extremely unlikely that these applicants get admitted.

 

[Sephiroth]

I think you have misunderstood. Pity interviews go to those that probably wouldn't be qualified to enter the school (at all), but have some legacy (or other) connection to the school. It is extremely unlikely that these applicants get admitted.

So do schools keep a certain number of interview slots allocated to these pity interviews, or are they spots that could have been given to a viable applicant who may have had an opportunity to really impress them?

 

[Myuu]

So do schools keep a certain number of interview slots allocated to these pity interviews, or are they spots that could have been given to a viable applicant who may have had an opportunity to really impress them?

It's largely irrelevant. There aren't very many of them and it really doesn't make a difference at the end of the day.

 

[235788]

Know of a girl that just was accepted into University of Illinois with a 2.9 and a 25 MCAT.

Her mom is faculty.

A+ personality and drive though. Serious. She was always just very average at school, even in highschool.

Don't believe you. Maybe a 30 mcat and a 3.5

 

[Mooglies]

Know of a girl that just was accepted into University of Illinois with a 2.9 and a 25 MCAT.

Her mom is faculty.

A+ personality and drive though. Serious. She was always just very average at school, even in highschool.

Thing I don't get is how can you say someone has drive that has a 2.9 and 25 mcat.

 

[wanderer]

Of course legacy is going to help. It applies to everything in life.

Having the right socioeconomic background helps even more.

 

[ialwayslose]

I got rejected from the ONLY school I have ANY legacy connection to (immediate family member). That would be the University of Rochester (this was the first rejection I received). I don't think my numbers were lacking. Oh I also knew a well-tenured physician in the Hospital.

Looking back, I am very happy I didn't get a "courtesy" interview, just so I could spend 800 dollars traveling and waste a few days at a school I honestly was not extremely interested in attending, and wasn't interested in me. (I only applied because of said family connection, but its not like they had a secondary application to sense this)