It's rough out there? Or is it me?

[throwawaysteve19897]

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Situation: I'm in my early 30's, youngish family med doc with a few years experience as an attending.

I got rejected for two positions very close to a major metro area.
Currently, I work in a very large metro area which is even more competitive than the area I applied for but at a less desirable, for most, job setting. I strongly want to move for family reasons and difficult work conditions. .

I'm burnt out.

My current job has been financially rewarding due mostly to a very generous loan repayment program but I realized it's not worth it.
My previous 2, 3 interviews for attending jobs went well and I was offered jobs. These interviews were fairly long, with many staff members, and many types of questions were asked. Of course this is pre-covid.

The recent interviews were strange to me as I was barely asked any questions and it seemed like that didn't even read my CV thoroughly.

I've been very frugal as a med student, resident, and attending and have fairly modest debt left to pay off. I could pay off all my remaining student loan debt right now with my taxable mutual funds/cash and still have enough to live on for about 2 years. I also have my retirement accounts. No credit card/personal loan debt. Relatively modest car worth what I owe on it.

Questions:
Is the job market that rough for major metro areas like Miami, NYC, and the like for FM during covid that many applicants are being turned away?

How stupid would it be to quit my job without a permanent one lined up?

The locums jobs I've seen aren't paying well and with the lack of PTO and benefits I'd be making like 50k gross less a year with locums. The jobs I was rejected for would pay substantially more than my current relatively well-paid set up due to bonuses, production, and especially lower taxes.

Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this thread; it's my first post here.

 

[deleted87716]

Just a guess based on the situation across the country, but I suspect there are more jobs available outside the major metropolitan areas. The money is probably better, too. Not to mention the quality of life (IMO - YMMV).

The stupidity (or not) of quitting your job without another one lined up depends on how much money you've set aside for such a possibility (e.g., an "oh-**** fund" - typically 6 months worth of expenses). It always helps to have an exit strategy.

 

[throwawaysteve19897]

Thanks for your input. Yes, I have about 1 year's of cash in my emergency fund. I usually have 3-6 months per the general recommendations but was accumulating more for my move and just due to covid. After the cash I have my taxable investments.

I wanted to move to a specific metro area due to family reasons and to be around people of my ethnicity.

I've lived in the suburbs my entire life and don't actually care for the big cities for lifestyle haha. It's really due to be around family.

The jobs that are 3 hours away are paying similarly to the jobs I lost out of as far as I can tell. Cost of living is a bit lower higher for the job close to the city but I can tolerate 4-5,000 more in extra rent a year.

The other option I was thinking of aside from locums was to get a permanent (and well-paid) job a few hours away from the desired city. But I think that it could look bad to the recruiter if I tried to leave after 6-12 months.
Does it look *that* bad if you leave a job after 6 months? I've been told that you're supposed to stay in each job about 2+ years.

Long-term I'd like to have a private practice but I need to pay off my debt and accumulate more assets as I'm risk averse.

 

[deleted87716]

Not sure what else to tell you. There are jobs out there. If you want to live in SE VA, PM me.

 

[hallowmann]

Thanks for your input. Yes, I have about 1 year's of cash in my emergency fund. I usually have 3-6 months per the general recommendations but was accumulating more for my move and just due to covid. After the cash I have my taxable investments.

I wanted to move to a specific metro area due to family reasons and to be around people of my ethnicity.

I've lived in the suburbs my entire life and don't actually care for the big cities for lifestyle haha. It's really due to be around family.

The jobs that are 3 hours away are paying similarly to the jobs I lost out of as far as I can tell. Cost of living is a bit lower higher for the job close to the city but I can tolerate 4-5,000 more in extra rent a year.

The other option I was thinking of aside from locums was to get a permanent (and well-paid) job a few hours away from the desired city. But I think that it could look bad to the recruiter if I tried to leave after 6-12 months.
Does it look *that* bad if you leave a job after 6 months? I've been told that you're supposed to stay in each job about 2+ years.

Long-term I'd like to have a private practice but I need to pay off my debt and accumulate more assets as I'm risk averse.

I know plenty of people that leave a job after 1 year. 6 months is kind of short and if you do that a lot, its not great. Do it once, and it probably won't be a big deal if you've got another job lined up.

My brother's left jobs without another lined. Sounds like you'll do OK based on what you've said (could pay off loans now and still have enough to last 2 yrs). Obviously its better to have something lined up, even if its a lower paying locums, just to demonstrate you're still clinically fresh until you find a permanent position.

I think you've answered your own question in your posts. You were going for what sounds like a very well paying job in a place that is likely perceived as competitive (big metro). They probably just had a lot of people applying and didn't feel strongly enough to hire you. Another likely possibility is that they had someone local/internal already lined up, but had to go through the motions for HR reasons.

 

[chocomorsel]

Get a job a few hours away from the desired city. City jobs are competitive. Out in the country you tend to be more appreciated and paid better.

 

[throwawaysteve19897]

It's actually not *super* high paid but the issue is that we had a substantial pay cut due to covid 19 and due to much higher taxes of current city, the new job would have paid a lot more after taxes.

I'm in a much larger city but the target metro area is still fairly large. I'm hoping that they just had too many applicants and that it's not due to me completely blowing the interviews or some issue with my CV. Thanks for your input

 

[throwawaysteve19897]

Unfortunately due to family reasons most people would *highly* prefer moving to the same city as their family.

Also, due to covid there has been a lot of racist attacks and as a minority I'm trying to live with people of my race.
I've had enough people being racist either in my face or indirectly throughout my life to tolerate more of this. I haven't found a big income differential between more rural areas and the target city.

Cost of living is less in smaller towns; I've lived on 300-800 bucks (edit: this is just for rent. I've lived on 13,000-24,000 a year all inclusive for college and residency) a month in small towns in the past. However, I can tolerate the 5-6k more in additional rent of a larger city when my total yearly expenditures are less than the average household in the US and while making top ~2% income.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Fatalis]

I think the issue here is that you aren’t being flexible... living in a big city and doing FM limits you big time and you basically answered your own question: it is competitive and you are limited. Your options are either stay and deal with it our move outside and take a gig outside a big city. I currently live in a big city with my wife and commute to my rural job 45min away

 

[Sardonix]

I think the issue here is that you aren’t being flexible... living in a big city and doing FM limits you big time and you basically answered your own question: it is competitive and you are limited. Your options are either stay and deal with it our move outside and take a gig outside a big city. I currently live in a big city with my wife and commute to my rural job 45min away

To be diplomatically semantic, OP has listed priorities they are unable to compromise on. However, no matter how one phrases that, the end result is that compromises in other areas will be required in return (IE: pay/ease of finding a job/job duties etc.)

OP, your frugality and desire to be close to family is commendable. And the racism you have faced is a sad reflection of the country these days (and its past, to be honest, but I digress). That said, even though I am still a resident I've read pretty extensively about my geographical area's recruitment data and gotten anecdotal input from friends/other FM docs, and my conclusion would be that even with COVID it's not necessarily "rough out there" so much as it is "rough finding a job that meets your criteria."

 

[throwawaysteve19897]

To be diplomatically semantic, OP has listed priorities they are unable to compromise on. However, no matter how one phrases that, the end result is that compromises in other areas will be required in return (IE: pay/ease of finding a job/job duties etc.)

OP, your frugality and desire to be close to family is commendable. And the racism you have faced is a sad reflection of the country these days (and its past, to be honest, but I digress). That said, even though I am still a resident I've read pretty extensively about my geographical area's recruitment data and gotten anecdotal input from friends/other FM docs, and my conclusion would be that even with COVID it's not necessarily "rough out there" so much as it is "rough finding a job that meets your criteria."

Figured out how to quote messages, yes!

Well it's hard when your significant other has moved and you haven't seen them for months. I argue that it's a fairly good reason to want to move to the city where they are living.

My criteria aren't that extreme, IMHO. Just find a job in the general area of my significant other in FM. I applied to the big companies in the city and surrounding areas and got rejected so I don't know if it's due to more qualified applicants being selected or what the reason was for being rejected.

Mind you I wasn't trying to get a job with Company A over all the other companies; just *any* job in the area.

I applied recently to the jobs that are a few hours from the target city but they are being posted on a website that tends to have jobs with difficult work conditions. Just going to keep on checking for more jobs in the general area.

 

[throwawaysteve19897]

I think the issue here is that you aren’t being flexible... living in a big city and doing FM limits you big time and you basically answered your own question: it is competitive and you are limited. Your options are either stay and deal with it our move outside and take a gig outside a big city. I currently live in a big city with my wife and commute to my rural job 45min away

I wish I could find jobs that are 45 min away from the target city. The jobs that are still out there are 3+ hours away. I have applied for them and are pending their responses.
The jobs I got rejected for were about 10 min from the city itself.

 

[Sardonix]

Figured out how to quote messages, yes!

Well it's hard when your significant other has moved and you haven't seen them for months. I argue that it's a fairly good reason to want to move to the city where they are living.

I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, I think everyone would agree separation sucks pretty hard. But regardless of reasons for moving to the city, the competition and difficulty finding the right job is going to go up as others have said.

 

[throwawaysteve19897]

I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, I think everyone would agree separation sucks pretty hard. But regardless of reasons for moving to the city, the competition and difficulty finding the right job is going to go up as others have said.

Yeah I'm just confused about the jobs that rejected me. I'm not used to it since it's like going back to life as a premed or medical student begging for a spot. FM is still the top recruited job so I never imagined it'd be hard to work in the general metro area of a city aside from NYC for example. Locums recruiters told me, "yeah and NYC--there's no jobs available. Not going to happen." And this is precovid.

I also had some positive email feedback but it is what it is. Thanks everybody for your input. Just a bit dejected about this development since I was hoping to leave my current job soon which has very high turnover for a reason.

I'm thinking that the job market is pretty tough right now since a job which was ~40 min away from target city that I applied to never even responded to me. And this particular job is one that people *run* away from.

 

[InternistDO]

Maybe these are bad jobs or maybe they’re red herrings, but whenever I look through job postings in NYC I see a bunch—Mount Sinai, Columbia/Cornell, and Montefiore all are hiring, as is Health and Hospitals, plus scattered private practice jobs. I’m in IM but I didn’t think there’d be a big difference in primary care.

 

[MedicalDestiny]

Situation: I'm in my early 30's, youngish family med doc with a few years experience as an attending.

I got rejected for two positions very close to a major metro area on the west coast.
Currently, I work in a very large metro area which is even more competitive than the area I applied for but at a less desirable, for most, job setting. I strongly want to move for family reasons and difficult work conditions. .

I'm burnt out.

My current job has been financially rewarding due mostly to a very generous loan repayment program but I realized it's not worth it.
My previous 2, 3 interviews for attending jobs went well and I was offered jobs. These interviews were fairly long, with many staff members, and many types of questions were asked. Of course this is pre-covid.

The recent interviews were strange to me as I was barely asked any questions and it seemed like that didn't even read my CV thoroughly.

I've been very frugal as a med student, resident, and attending and have fairly modest debt left to pay off. I could pay off all my remaining student loan debt right now with my taxable mutual funds/cash and still have enough to live on for about 2 years. I also have my retirement accounts. No credit card/personal loan debt. Relatively modest car worth what I owe on it.

Questions:
Is the job market that rough for major metro areas like Miami, NYC, and the like for FM during covid that many applicants are being turned away?

How stupid would it be to quit my job without a permanent one lined up?

The locums jobs I've seen aren't paying well and with the lack of PTO and benefits I'd be making like 50k gross less a year with locums. The jobs I was rejected for would pay substantially more than my current relatively well-paid set up due to bonuses, production, and especially lower taxes.

Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this thread; it's my first post here.

If you’ve found a good solution let me know I am almost In the same boat minus not having the nice loan repayment. I’d be interested to know ways to supplement my income via telemedicine or locums. Thanks

 

[throwawaysteve19897]

If you’ve found a good solution let me know I am almost In the same boat minus not having the nice loan repayment. I’d be interested to know ways to supplement my income via telemedicine or locums. Thanks

There's no easy solution. Right now there aren't that many locums jobs; in the area I'm looking to work in one big locums company has 30% the jobs they had precovid.

The locums positions I've seen are paying about 20% less than W2 employed positions for FM.

One telemedicine job I talked to was offering like $10 a call and without a guarantee daily/hourly rate. It was also for night calls from like 9pm-7am. Crazy.

 

[MedicalDestiny]

There's no easy solution. Right now there aren't that many locums jobs; in the area I'm looking to work in one big locums company has 30% the jobs they had precovid.

The locums positions I've seen are paying about 20% less than W2 employed positions for FM.

One telemedicine job I talked to was offering like $10 a call and without a guarantee daily/hourly rate. It was also for night calls from like 9pm-7am. Crazy.

Thank you for your reply. I agree, majority of the opportunities pre Covid aren’t there anymore. God bless.