Job or volunteering?

[KyleJames]

Hello all,

I know clinical exposure is extremely important to attain when building a medical school application, but how do we gather these experiences? What is the most effective way to gain clinical exposure? I volunteer at my local hospital and I really enjoy it, but it seems like many people have clinically related jobs and gather exposure through this way rather than volunteering. Does working in a clinical setting put applicants "above" applicants who volunteer at a hospital and work non-clinically related jobs? I hope this post makes sense to anyone who reads it, and I really appreciate any responses.

Kyle

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[cinnamonlady]

I talked to a school on the phone about my "lack of" clinical experience but I think if you work in a job where you get clinical exposure that is good and probably preferable just make sure to describe it on your Amcas as a clinical experience and direct patient care

 

[WedgeDawg]

Volunteering arguably displays more altruism than working, even if you're doing the same thing. That being said, no one is going to fault an applicant who worked as a scribe (paid) but then also volunteered at a children's homeless shelter. To answer your question, both are perfectly acceptable (in my experience), but it's also vital to show that you are willing to donate your time to a good cause without any direct benefit to yourself. If that's through the hospital, then that's great. If it's working with homeless kids, that's great too. You need to show selflessness and that you know what you're getting into, but not necessarily both at the same time.

 

[cinnamonlady]

Volunteering arguably displays more altruism than working, even if you're doing the same thing. That being said, no one is going to fault an applicant who worked as a scribe (paid) but then also volunteered at a children's homeless shelter. To answer your question, both are perfectly acceptable (in my experience), but it's also vital to show that you are willing to donate your time to a good cause without any direct benefit to yourself. If that's through the hospital, then that's great. If it's working with homeless kids, that's great too. You need to show selflessness and that you know what you're getting into, but not necessarily both at the same time.

I worked with homeless kids for like 500 hours and with kids with learning disorders and behavioral problems for another many hundred hours. It is not the same as clinical experience, which the schools want to see

 

[WedgeDawg]

I worked with homeless kids for like 500 hours and with kids with learning disorders and behavioral problems for another many hundred hours. It is not the same as clinical experience, which the schools want to see

We are in agreement.

 

[cinnamonlady]

Yes one school told me that I should get a CNA and reapply

 

[cinnamonlady]

All I know is whatever you do it is really important how you document the experience. A lot of the people you are competing against have EMT, CNA, etc. For example, I did research with a physician where I was doing some direct work with patients. The school told me that when I reapply I should relabel that experience as a clinical experience. I think that hospital volunteering is good, or working is good, just make sure the experience is direct patient care. I think I am just trying to seriously warn you that just because you do thousands of hours of service and a lot of shadowing, even in a hospital, it doesn't matter if you are not directly helping the patients and thus can convince the committee you understand the difficulty of the profession.

 

[cinnamonlady]

They wanted consistency with my experiences over a couple years. So I shadowed several different doctors, but it is better to shadow like one doctor every week for like two years or something. Or if you are volunteering in hospital, it is good to do this consistently. Working in patient care is good because you get a lot of hours of experience from it. I think in addition to showing altruism just don't forget to do the things you do for fun with your friends like playing rec sports or music. Probably if I were you I'd just not think about it keep doing your job and volunteering at the hospital if you are already doing that. Do not forget to have fun though, seriously

 

[ridethecliche]

Yes one school told me that I should get a CNA and reapply

Not sure if srs?

 

[cinnamonlady]

Not sure if srs?

I am totally serious, I had applied straight out of school at my state school, I didn't have clinical experience except from high school and my postbacc job but was passionate about service. So over two years I continued with my service interests by making meals twice a week at a shelter and helping some troubled youth but also shadowed a couple different doctors for almost 100 hours or so. Then I also completed graduate work and received As. So the second time I applied I was like ok I'm going to do well on this interview, but the interview wasn't offered to me.

 

[cinnamonlady]

This is just at this one school though, other schools were impressed with what I had done with my time. I think you should just be yourself and do what interests you, emphasis on gaining many hours of direct patient care. If I had it to do over I'd do the following things 1. Spread out premed coursework so you only do like one or two hard classes at a time 2. Become some kind of EMT or emergency responder for a year after college instead of research 3. Take more courses in music and literature and language and random fun stuff in college that would boost my GPA and be entertaining

 

[lifetothefullest]

2. Become some kind of EMT or emergency responder for a year after college instead of research

That might be a bit difficult since EMT classes are usually a semester long (unless you can find some sort of accelerated class) and then it takes time to get certified so it might be six or seven months before you're actually riding and then you wouldn't get that much patient experience until you're more experienced and the crew chief trusts you to take charge with the patient.

 

[cinnamonlady]

That might be a bit difficult since EMT classes are usually a semester long (unless you can find some sort of accelerated class) and then it takes time to get certified so it might be six or seven months before you're actually riding and then you wouldn't get that much patient experience until you're more experienced and the crew chief trusts you to take charge with the patient.

Yeah, probably what I did is fine, although it was crazy. I think the only thing is I was self-conscious about my AMCAS maybe I could have had people look over it before I submit it. Going through the whole process makes you rethink everything you have done nonstop but really just be yourself and score high on the MCAT. The stuff I did was cool and it continues to evolve in an interesting way. I think when the time comes for me it will come. I really enjoy academia and research environment quite a bit

 

[cinnamonlady]

.

 

[Alejandro]

Hm. What I think a job says, is probably not what the average premed thinks.

A job, would show me that you know how to be professional, work with others, etc. You know how to show up on time. You know how to handle challenges with coworkers and your patients/clients. You know how to work as a team. You may laugh at this but MANY med students have lived without having a real job. (No, I mean a serious job, not like being a lab tech were you choose your own hours to run a PCR-that said there are some serious lab commitments too...) Those are very good qualities to have when anyone looks at you for admissions. Why? Because being a physician is a job.

Volunteering, helps me understand how much you really want to get to know your patients, and the general field of medicine as a whole. I like to see if a volunteer just clocks hours, or at least has an understanding of how his/her unit on the hospital works, or can tell me several stories of patient interactions they've had, because ULTIMATELY, AS A PHYSICIAN, YOU'RE INTERACTING WITH PATIENTS. (sigh, i interviewed someone who said, "I don't want to see patients unless I absolutely have to," ehhh...did you not read the job description?)

As far as clinical jobs go, (I had one myself) I don't think it REALLY makes you stand out. I think it's what you say, what you learn, from your jobs that really makes you shine. If you can say you can draw blood, whoopdeedoo. Oh, you've done CPR? who cares. But, if you can tell me a reflection on what its like to do a procedure, and think about what the patient must be experiencing when you have to draw blood (and say your patient hates needles), or can speak about how futile CPR actually is, then we're talkin. Otherwise, you're just like anyone else just trying to pad your resume. Because those tasks, are done typically by PCTs or MAs. you're not applying to be a PCT, or MA, you're applying to be a doctor. Its good to appreciate what people do in your field as a whole, so job experience is great, but honestly, me working as a receptionist at a clinic meant more to my application than my clinical job being an MA.

So, whats my answer to all of this? Do both. Find a job you like to do, and no it doesn't have to be "clinical." Just have a good reflection off of it, and think about how it'll affect you as a future clinician. I can't imagine volunteering a hospital takes up that much time-4 hours a week at a hospitals PACU, ED, medicine floor is plenty. If you REALLY have difficulty giving up 4 hours (For most, I seriously doubt it), then cut facebook, cut SDN (for a bit), and maybe go to a few less parties and sober up some bit. Hate to say it, but you can get QUITE busy when you're in med school and even more in residency. Toughen up.

 

[cinnamonlady]

Sober up?

Hm. What I think a job says, is probably not what the average premed thinks.

A job, would show me that you know how to be professional, work with others, etc. You know how to show up on time. You know how to handle challenges with coworkers and your patients/clients. You know how to work as a team. You may laugh at this but MANY med students have lived without having a real job. (No, I mean a serious job, not like being a lab tech were you choose your own hours to run a PCR-that said there are some serious lab commitments too...) Those are very good qualities to have when anyone looks at you for admissions. Why? Because being a physician is a job.

Volunteering, helps me understand how much you really want to get to know your patients, and the general field of medicine as a whole. I like to see if a volunteer just clocks hours, or at least has an understanding of how his/her unit on the hospital works, or can tell me several stories of patient interactions they've had, because ULTIMATELY, AS A PHYSICIAN, YOU'RE INTERACTING WITH PATIENTS. (sigh, i interviewed someone who said, "I don't want to see patients unless I absolutely have to," ehhh...did you not read the job description?)

As far as clinical jobs go, (I had one myself) I don't think it REALLY makes you stand out. I think it's what you say, what you learn, from your jobs that really makes you shine. If you can say you can draw blood, whoopdeedoo. Oh, you've done CPR? who cares. But, if you can tell me a reflection on what its like to do a procedure, and think about what the patient must be experiencing when you have to draw blood (and say your patient hates needles), or can speak about how futile CPR actually is, then we're talkin. Otherwise, you're just like anyone else just trying to pad your resume. Because those tasks, are done typically by PCTs or MAs. you're not applying to be a PCT, or MA, you're applying to be a doctor. Its good to appreciate what people do in your field as a whole, so job experience is great, but honestly, me working as a receptionist at a clinic meant more to my application than my clinical job being an MA.

So, whats my answer to all of this? Do both. Find a job you like to do, and no it doesn't have to be "clinical." Just have a good reflection off of it, and think about how it'll affect you as a future clinician. I can't imagine volunteering a hospital takes up that much time-4 hours a week at a hospitals PACU, ED, medicine floor is plenty. If you REALLY have difficulty giving up 4 hours (For most, I seriously doubt it), then cut facebook, cut SDN (for a bit), and maybe go to a few less parties and sober up some bit. Hate to say it, but you can get QUITE busy when you're in med school and even more in residency. Toughen up.

 

[cinnamonlady]

The takeaway from this long thing is, this guy had a J-O-B in the clinic, and was accepted to medical school. Do NOT cut your social networks. If you study you DO have time to go to party at night.

Hm. What I think a job says, is probably not what the average premed thinks.

A job, would show me that you know how to be professional, work with others, etc. You know how to show up on time. You know how to handle challenges with coworkers and your patients/clients. You know how to work as a team. You may laugh at this but MANY med students have lived without having a real job. (No, I mean a serious job, not like being a lab tech were you choose your own hours to run a PCR-that said there are some serious lab commitments too...) Those are very good qualities to have when anyone looks at you for admissions. Why? Because being a physician is a job.

Volunteering, helps me understand how much you really want to get to know your patients, and the general field of medicine as a whole. I like to see if a volunteer just clocks hours, or at least has an understanding of how his/her unit on the hospital works, or can tell me several stories of patient interactions they've had, because ULTIMATELY, AS A PHYSICIAN, YOU'RE INTERACTING WITH PATIENTS. (sigh, i interviewed someone who said, "I don't want to see patients unless I absolutely have to," ehhh...did you not read the job description?)

As far as clinical jobs go, (I had one myself) I don't think it REALLY makes you stand out. I think it's what you say, what you learn, from your jobs that really makes you shine. If you can say you can draw blood, whoopdeedoo. Oh, you've done CPR? who cares. But, if you can tell me a reflection on what its like to do a procedure, and think about what the patient must be experiencing when you have to draw blood (and say your patient hates needles), or can speak about how futile CPR actually is, then we're talkin. Otherwise, you're just like anyone else just trying to pad your resume. Because those tasks, are done typically by PCTs or MAs. you're not applying to be a PCT, or MA, you're applying to be a doctor. Its good to appreciate what people do in your field as a whole, so job experience is great, but honestly, me working as a receptionist at a clinic meant more to my application than my clinical job being an MA.

So, whats my answer to all of this? Do both. Find a job you like to do, and no it doesn't have to be "clinical." Just have a good reflection off of it, and think about how it'll affect you as a future clinician. I can't imagine volunteering a hospital takes up that much time-4 hours a week at a hospitals PACU, ED, medicine floor is plenty. If you REALLY have difficulty giving up 4 hours (For most, I seriously doubt it), then cut facebook, cut SDN (for a bit), and maybe go to a few less parties and sober up some bit. Hate to say it, but you can get QUITE busy when you're in med school and even more in residency. Toughen up.

 

[cinnamonlady]

The thing about volunteering in the hospital is that the hospital doesn't need usually need many volunteers -- premed students are on a waitlist to volunteer. It only really seems altruistic. Here is basically what the process is like: you work your ass off for many years. You work two full-time jobs while taking Orgo. You work for a year in biomedical engineering to help pay for school and squeeze all your credits into the remaining semesters. You come out, you do PCR on 1000 samples a day while taking graduate level coursework and volunteering. Then you do medical research for three years directly for physician and patients while working saturday nights feeding poor kids while your friends are partying because that is the day they need you most. You coach high school sports, shadow several physicians, you work overtime on your research projects. You are an excellent human being.

Then in an arbitrary process, you basically have a bunch of rich white male academics (not necessarily doctors) who have never worked an actual day in the real world judge how meaningful the things you have done are and simultaneously ask you to validate their own experiences and opinions. In the interview they generally ask you questions not about the clinic but about whether or not you could afford to buy yourself a name-brand guitar, whether you know their favorite connection from your undergrad institution, or what people you would like to have at a dinner party.

 

[cinnamonlady]

If you are lucky you get one female or minority interviewer but usually you don't

The thing about volunteering in the hospital is that the hospital doesn't need usually need many volunteers -- premed students are on a waitlist to volunteer. It only really seems altruistic. Here is basically what the process is like: you work your ass off for many years. You work two full-time jobs while taking Orgo. You work for a year in biomedical engineering to help pay for school and squeeze all your credits into the remaining semesters. You come out, you do PCR on 1000 samples a day while taking graduate level coursework and volunteering. Then you do medical research for three years directly for physician and patients while working saturday nights feeding poor kids while your friends are partying because that is the day they need you most. You coach high school sports, shadow several physicians, you work overtime on your research projects. You are an excellent human being.

Then in an arbitrary process, you basically have a bunch of rich white male academics (not necessarily doctors) who have never worked an actual day in the real world judge how meaningful the things you have done are and simultaneously ask you to validate their own experiences and opinions. In the interview they generally ask you questions not about the clinic but about whether or not you could afford to buy yourself a name-brand guitar, whether you know their favorite connection from your undergrad institution, or what people you would like to have at a dinner party.

 

[lifetothefullest]

Then in an arbitrary process, you basically have a bunch of rich white male academics (not necessarily doctors) who have never worked an actual day in the real world judge how meaningful the things you have done are and simultaneously ask you to validate their own experiences and opinions. In the interview they generally ask you questions not about the clinic but about whether or not you could afford to buy yourself a name-brand guitar, whether you know their favorite connection from your undergrad institution, or what people you would like to have at a dinner party.

Lol four posts in a row? I'm pretty drunk but looks like somebody is beating me. Alright, so basically, that's how things work in the real world, like it or not. Connections get you places. As I've said places before and I'll say again now, medical school admissions is like getting any other job. You go to an interview so that they can evaluate you and judge whether or not they can stake their reputation on you. That's why LORs are so important. That's also coincidentally why connections matter - if I happen to know your professor and trust him, I'm going to trust his judgment and so I'd be more willing to stake my reputation and my institution's reputation on you. And I highly doubt asking whether or not you can buy yourself expensive things plays much into anything. You sound like you're bitter about the whole upper-class.

 

[cinnamonlady]

Definitely I am bitter

Lol four posts in a row? I'm pretty drunk but looks like somebody is beating me. Alright, so basically, that's how things work in the real world, like it or not. Connections get you places. As I've said places before and I'll say again now, medical school admissions is like getting any other job. You go to an interview so that they can evaluate you and judge whether or not they can stake their reputation on you. That's why LORs are so important. That's also coincidentally why connections matter - if I happen to know your professor and trust him, I'm going to trust his judgment and so I'd be more willing to stake my reputation and my institution's reputation on you. And I highly doubt asking whether or not you can buy yourself expensive things plays much into anything. You sound like you're bitter about the whole upper-class.

 

[ZedsDed]

Definitely I am bitter

If it bothers you so much, play the game so you can get to a position of influence and change things. Or you can nobly let all the ruthless little sociopaths (premeds) trample you. The choice is clear, at least for me it was anyway.

 

[cinnamonlady]

Yeah I don't know I used to be normal. I have done everything I could to be the best person I could be, but sometimes I think it would be nice to do like some of my peers and just straight have gone corporate out of school, made a big ass salary, and then traveled the world with people I love. Do you know how hard it was to tell the young women I was trying to help and mentor that you know what, after everything I told you about believing in yourself and working hard and not giving up, I am not going to be a doctor after all -- twice? I write a lot because it has made me somewhat bitter but I am trying to remember the reasons why I originally wanted to do this and help people in the first place.

Lol four posts in a row? I'm pretty drunk but looks like somebody is beating me. Alright, so basically, that's how things work in the real world, like it or not. Connections get you places. As I've said places before and I'll say again now, medical school admissions is like getting any other job. You go to an interview so that they can evaluate you and judge whether or not they can stake their reputation on you. That's why LORs are so important. That's also coincidentally why connections matter - if I happen to know your professor and trust him, I'm going to trust his judgment and so I'd be more willing to stake my reputation and my institution's reputation on you. And I highly doubt asking whether or not you can buy yourself expensive things plays much into anything. You sound like you're bitter about the whole upper-class.

 

[cinnamonlady]

If it bothers you so much, play the game so you can get to a position of influence and change things. Or you can nobly let all the ruthless little sociopaths (premeds) trample you. The choice is clear, at least for me it was anyway.

I know you are right I have a lot of trouble playing the game. I tell people the things they don't want to hear and I don't play the game

 

[cinnamonlady]

Things learned 1. Show up 2. Remember names 3. Treat everyone you see as if they were the only bright ray of sunshine you ever saw 4. One message at a time

 

[NeuResurgens]

Do both. I did volunteering to get some clinical experience, and that gave me an in to get my clinical job. I think jobs look better because they're harder to get than volunteering positions, but clinical experience is important either way.

 

[lifetothefullest]

Jobs also pay and if you're anything like me, you definitely need the money.

 

[cinnamonlady]

You're making sense

 

[cinnamonlady]

I have to admit that I was probably looking for a reason why I was not accepted. Old white men is a pretty popular target to blame for random stuff. In fact, I enjoyed all my interviews, and majority of my interviewers were cool. I applied to only a handful of schools, some of them MSTP, I added the other schools late Fall in the cycle, then got three interviews but withdrew my application post-interview with lack of substantial reason for doing so. My Ugrad GPA is lower than average, having chosen one of the most difficult majors your could choose while doing work-study and college athletics, so I think despite all my service that is why the committee ultimately did not accept me, esp at OOS school. I think all my interviewers did me favors and all my LOR were great, including and probably even supported even more by said rich [or nonrich] white men who may or may not have previously had real jobs.

 

[cinnamonlady]

Basically I have just been a massive ass and have a core distrust of others even when they are wholeheartedly supporting me, but I am sure that is largely apparent

 

[Planes2Doc]

Volunteering over employment... First of all, volunteering is a requirement. And whether you do a job or not, you still need to volunteer. If you volunteer in a hospital, you are killing two birds with one stone. You are checking boxes for clinical experience, as well as altruism. And best of all, you can do all of this with only a typically four hour commitment once per week! Jobs definitely require a far larger commitment. This can be detrimental to your medical school application, if they negatively impact your grades and MCAT. I have seen that happen a lot of times! Also, sure you might be tempted by the money you'd make by working, but remember that it's only pocket change compared to future earnings. Also, if you screw your chances and are forced to do an SMP, the $50,000 you'll sink into that program (plus the lost future earnings) will far outweigh the few bucks you'll make with an entry-level job.

Here's my in-depth take if you're interested: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-mitzvahs-and-why-you-shouldnt-do-it.1030074/