Job Search C/O 2012

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adOggy07

adOggy07

KSU CVM C/O 2012
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Hi everyone,

I'm currently a 4th year student at Kansas State University with about 6 months of clinics left to finish up. Now that I have the NAVLE behind me (I took them last Thursday), I am starting to worry about the next step. A job! With all this talk about too many new veterinary graduates and not enough jobs on the market to fulfill these graduates, I thought I'd start a thread to keep the class of 2012 updated on job offers/interviews/successes/frustrations/etc.

I've realized during vet school that I like the idea of doing a little bit of everything, which is why I decided not to pursue an internship/residency route and go with the job route. Although I do have a special fondness for internal medicine and emergency medicine, which is why ideally, I would love to start at an emergency hospital that also sees regular appointments so that I can have the best of both worlds.

I've just started to work on a cover letter that will go along with my CV that I plan to mail out to as many clinics as I possibly can to get myself started in the search. I'm planning on first looking in southern California because that is where I am from, but am open to other cities depending on how this whole job search turns out. I do have to say that I am quite worried after hearing about the class of 2011 having such troubles finding jobs.

If any of you guys have VIN accounts, I stumbled upon this article not too long ago: http://www.vin.com/Members/boards/discussionviewer.aspx?FirstMsg=1&LastMsg=20&DocumentId=4896420

I'm not intending to strike fear into the hearts of senior vet students but rather discuss/share the realities of our time. Hope to hear from some of you or anyone with any advice for the graduating class of 2012! 🙂
 
Good luck in the job search, a vet at the practice I am externing with this block told me that he had read that only 4 out of 10 new graduates would leave school with an offer - scary when we have this much debt!

I am going to be starting a residency in pathology this summer - I am doing it because I love pathology, not because I don't want to find a private practice job - but I admit knowing that I am going to be getting a salary, albeit a crappy one, and loan deferment for a few more years is a nice feeling.
 
fargeese said:
Good luck in the job search, a vet at the practice I am externing with this block told me that he had read that only 4 out of 10 new graduates would leave school with an offer - scary when we have this much debt!

I am going to be starting a residency in pathology this summer - I am doing it because I love pathology, not because I don't want to find a private practice job - but I admit knowing that I am going to be getting a salary, albeit a crappy one, and loan deferment for a few more years is a nice feeling.
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You are? OMG? Where? Awesome! Anatomic or Clinical??
 
fargeese said:
Good luck in the job search, a vet at the practice I am externing with this block told me that he had read that only 4 out of 10 new graduates would leave school with an offer - scary when we have this much debt!
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That's way low based on what I hear from our students. It's also much lower than the AVMA survey of new grads, where about 75% of new grads have at least 1 offer.
 
It sounded low to me and my info is definitely hearsay, so I expect your statistic is the correct information. Most of our class of 2011 have found jobs by now, but I did know of quite a few who graduated without an offer, so things are definitely tougher than they used to be.

I took the anatomic pathology resident position at Illinois. I am excited to be joining the program even if I am not ecstatic about living in the corn desert. At least we get more snow than college station 🙂
 
Found this thread because I'm trying to find the thread where people were writing their evaluations of the internships they did....any help?
Had something I thought might be if interest there.

On the JAVMA survey, I'm not sure but I think the 75% may have included internships as job offers. Not sure, I'll reread it and check back.
 
fargeese said:
It sounded low to me and my info is definitely hearsay, so I expect your statistic is the correct information. Most of our class of 2011 have found jobs by now, but I did know of quite a few who graduated without an offer, so things are definitely tougher than they used to be.

I took the anatomic pathology resident position at Illinois.
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I know of a couple of people in the class of 2011 that graduated without job offers and one that still doesn't have a job currently. And it's not like this person is has anything less to offer - they are actually super nice, friendly, did well in clinics. Which is all more part of the reason why what I'm reading about the job market scares me! You are right, things are definitely tougher than they used to be.

and CONGRATS on the pathology residency! I am on necropsy right now and having a lot of fun. It's a great review on anatomy too, which I needed a refresher on. Getting to see all the different things we've learned about clinically is pretty awesome. 🙂
 
Thanks for posting this oggy! I am having a hard time finding info about jobs as well. I'm a second year vet student and I'm just trying to take a peek at what's out there so I can start dreaming of the life beyond EXAM cramming.

I have a feeling that there are more jobs out there than it seems, but it's not too easy to find them looking on Craigslist (my main source for all job info!).

Anyone have any ideas where to look for vet (graduated) jobs that include salary info? (I'm checking out this VIN link in a minute).

A close friend is an optometrist (human) and she has several listings that she scans regularly for jobs and seems to find stuff ALL THE TIME. She's working part-time at several locations and receiving no benefits, but she's making $100k/ year.

Money isn't everything but that does sound NICE after all the ramen eating this past year.
 
Ummm....I know of a lot of long time associates that are having a hard time finding full employment.

And not to rain on anybody's parade but $100k? Not in vet med. Not unless you've bought in or are working emergency. Maybe on production in a major metro area...in which case your COL will be high even though you're still eating ramen.
 
justavet said:
Ummm....I know of a lot of long time associates that are having a hard time finding full employment.

And not to rain on anybody's parade but $100k? Not in vet med. Not unless you've bought in or are working emergency. Maybe on production in a major metro area...in which case your COL will be high even though you're still eating ramen.
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Dude ... so negative. I can appreciate that you know many long time associates that are looking for work and that does mean something to me, but I wasn't saying that I felt entitled to big bucks right out of school ... you did get that I said she was a human optometrist right, which is a different profession?
 
TheVetVetVetVet said:
Thanks for posting this oggy! I am having a hard time finding info about jobs as well. I'm a second year vet student and I'm just trying to take a peek at what's out there so I can start dreaming of the life beyond EXAM cramming.

I have a feeling that there are more jobs out there than it seems, but it's not too easy to find them looking on Craigslist (my main source for all job info!).

Anyone have any ideas where to look for vet (graduated) jobs that include salary info? (I'm checking out this VIN link in a minute).

A close friend is an optometrist (human) and she has several listings that she scans regularly for jobs and seems to find stuff ALL THE TIME. She's working part-time at several locations and receiving no benefits, but she's making $100k/ year.

Money isn't everything but that does sound NICE after all the ramen eating this past year.
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TheVetVetVetVet said:
Dude ... so negative. I can appreciate that you know many long time associates that are looking for work and that does mean something to me, but I wasn't saying that I felt entitled to big bucks right out of school ... you did get that I said she was a human optometrist right, which is a different profession?
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Re-read the bolded areas in your post. Justavet knows your talking about a different proffesion - but it doesnt sound like YOU know that in your first post - it sounds like "well i know this other girl doing this other thing who finds jobs all the time and makes lots of money so i should be FINE". we do see quite a few people on here who do not accept the poor nature of the veterinary job market and so yes, current vets are quick to point it out to younger prevets and students.

Justavet also wasn't being intentionally negative, just stating the way things are. There ARE lots of experienced associates looking for work and failing to find it. You almost certainly WILL struggle to find a job upon graduation if going into private practice, the pay WILL be bad and you WILL continue to eat ramen. These are essentially facts - not anyone being super negative.
 
sunshinevet said:
Re-read the bolded areas in your post. Justavet knows your talking about a different proffesion - but it doesnt sound like YOU know that in your first post - it sounds like "well i know this other girl doing this other thing who finds jobs all the time and makes lots of money so i should be FINE". we do see quite a few people on here who do not accept the poor nature of the veterinary job market and so yes, current vets are quick to point it out to younger prevets and students.

Justavet also wasn't being intentionally negative, just stating the way things are. There ARE lots of experienced associates looking for work and failing to find it. You almost certainly WILL struggle to find a job upon graduation if going into private practice, the pay WILL be bad and you WILL continue to eat ramen. These are essentially facts - not anyone being super negative.
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Being realistic is an entirely different thing than being negative and you guys are both being waaaay negative. The optometrist reference was to compare to a similar profession. There were two points that I was making: one was that optometrists have their own specialized classifieds and the other point was that they often work part-time at multiple locations upon graduation. The essential question is: does this apply for vet grads?

If 'yall are having trouble finding work a little get-up-and-go might be a lot more useful than anything else. Did you know that in many states veterinarians can teach science classes at community college? Could be a nice source of income while we search for more work.🙂

BTW: You have no idea how my job search will go, thank you very much!
 
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TheVetVetVetVet said:
Being realistic is an entirely different thing than being negative and you guys are both being waaaay negative. The optometrist reference was to compare to a similar profession. There were two points that I was making: one was that optometrists have their own specialized classifieds and the other point was that they often work part-time at multiple locations upon graduation. The essential question is: does this apply for vet grads?

If 'yall are having trouble finding work a little get-up-and-go might be a lot more useful than anything else. Did you know that in many states veterinarians can teach science classes at community college? Could be a nice source of income while we search for more work.🙂

BTW: You have no idea how my job search will go, thank you very much!
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Your hilarious. I can't wait for you to reread this thread in a few years. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I mean, obviously all those vets out there struggling to get jobs arent really trying and are just being fussy and difficult, and should go teach science classes and be happy about it! And optometrists are clearly a similar profession to ours despite having, well... nothing in common? Go on, post this on VIN... I dare you...

Don't worry, I have every faith in your job search, you are a special unique flower who will be teeming with multiple offers because clearly you are that much better than all your classmates, they're just lazy and thats why they're not getting job offers.

But seriously dude. WE WERE BEING REALISTIC. I'm sorry if that sounds negative, but it is truly the state of the veterinary profession right now. If you honestly don't think the job market for new grads is extremely competative right now, then your head is buried pretty far down in the sand. If you don't think the wages are bad, then I don't know what to tell you... YOU were the one who said "Money isn't everything but that does sound NICE after all the ramen eating this past year." YOU were the one being unrealistic. WE were just bringing you back to earth. You can either accept that, jump on VIN, educate yourself about the issues and have your eyes wide open, or you can staunchly scream "STOP BEING NEGATIVE" and be in for a big disappointment in a couple of years. Your choice.
 
sunshinevet said:
Your hilarious. I can't wait for you to reread this thread in a few years. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I mean, obviously all those vets out there struggling to get jobs arent really trying and are just being fussy and difficult, and should go teach science classes and be happy about it! And optometrists are clearly a similar profession to ours despite having, well... nothing in common? Go on, post this on VIN... I dare you...

Don't worry, I have every faith in your job search, you are a special unique flower who will be teeming with multiple offers because clearly you are that much better than all your classmates, they're just lazy and thats why they're not getting job offers.

But seriously dude. WE WERE BEING REALISTIC. I'm sorry if that sounds negative, but it is truly the state of the veterinary profession right now. If you honestly don't think the job market for new grads is extremely competative right now, then your head is buried pretty far down in the sand. If you don't think the wages are bad, then I don't know what to tell you... YOU were the one who said "Money isn't everything but that does sound NICE after all the ramen eating this past year." YOU were the one being unrealistic. WE were just bringing you back to earth. You can either accept that, jump on VIN, educate yourself about the issues and have your eyes wide open, or you can staunchly scream "STOP BEING NEGATIVE" and be in for a big disappointment in a couple of years. Your choice.
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Agree to disagree but thanks!
 
TheVetVetVetVet said:
If 'yall are having trouble finding work a little get-up-and-go might be a lot more useful than anything else. Did you know that in many states veterinarians can teach science classes at community college? Could be a nice source of income while we search for more work.🙂
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As a 2010 grad with multiple friends and classmates struggling mightily in the current market, this is not only incredibly ignorant, but slightly offensive.

Come back when you've spent several years being in and observing, first-hand, the current job market, and tell me and my colleagues that the reason we can't find work is because we need more "get up and go".

How ridiculously condescending.

TheVetVetVetVet said:
There were two points that I was making: one was that optometrists have their own specialized classifieds and the other point was that they often work part-time at multiple locations upon graduation. The essential question is: does this apply for vet grads?
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1) Yes, we do have our own specialized classifieds: they are in the back of every JAVMA, JAAHA, etc. The problem is there ain't a lot to PUT in those listings right now. You also need to network like crazy, which most of us do anyway to convince practices. So if you were trying to assume there there ARE tons of awesome jobs, they just aren't being advertised and we graduates have not been putting forth the effort to find them - you're quite wrong.

2) While emergency vets may rotate, working part time at various clinics is unusual for the same reason - lack of jobs. In addition, rotating vets (unless they are relief vets) are also rare because clinics want to maintain solid client-vet relationships. This is what keeps your clinic going. A vet who is only around sporadically will not gain lot of repeat customers for the clinic anyway.

And as for your teacher theory.....1) While we can in some areas, we are often considered overqualified to teach at community college; they want someone whom they can pay less; 2) The pay is pretty bad; in many areas lower than a starting associate's salary. Unless you can get on IBR, you're finances will take a HUGE hit with loan repayments on a CC teacher's salary 3) Clinics will possibly be LESS likely to hire you because you will have been teaching and "out of practice" in terms of clinical skills for months/years/however long you teach. Few clinics, let along clinics with space, like to waste time getting new associates "back up to speed". A job is already hard to find, but a patient mentor who would deal with that would be ever harder.
 
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I'm not trying to say that the reason people aren't finding work is that they're lacking get-up-and-go, just that complaining doesn't help the situation. Optimism will always bring light to any situation. I can see how taken out of context that could sound insulting, but it's not my intention.

Though I agree that teaching might not be the best resume builder, it probably looks better than not working. Also, I know part-time teachers that have made 40k working at multiple colleges, and it's a cool job. That's just one example of how thinking outside the box could lead to something. Anyone have any others?
 
There is a large difference between being unnecessarily negative (which I did not see any reply here being so) , and providing a reality check so that students such as yourself go into the job market with an appropriate understanding of what the current economy is like. I *wish* someone had been more honest with me during my time at school, and I hadn't listened so fervently to the AVMA about how everything is so rosy.

Remember also that the VAST majority of academic jobs, even at small colleges, either highly prefer or outright require a PhD. I don't think academia would be much of a viable option for the average fresh-out-of-school graduate with 1) no teaching experience and 2) no research experience.

In terms of thinking outside the box, there is relief work; but that can also be in short supply depending on the city you're in. The percentage of graduates doing internships or residencies after graduation has risen from 30% to over 50% in the past 5 years; while some of this may be due to specialization, I have no doubt that trouble in the job market has also contributed. Better to do an internship than be unemployed; that is where I think many people are heading. So yes, another viable option. You could also do military.
 
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Residencies/ Internships/ Specializations! This is a strong alternative job/ career choice. How is the job market for specialists? Anyone know?

I found info via the Canadian Vet Journal (just a quick Google search was all I had time/ energy for right now) stating that many alternative career paths for veterinarians include working for the pharmaceutical industry (not just in research but also in marketing and management positions) and government jobs (similar to FDA in U.S.). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2603661/

I have no idea about those choices as this is the first I've even considered any of it, but it may be worth looking into.

As for needing a PhD to teach ... not so my friend. I have first hand knowledge that many community colleges will take you with other degrees. In some cases, non-PhD candidates are stronger for full time positions because they can cost less. No research is necessary at community college either. Yes, lack of teaching experience is not good on the resume, but, hey, you have to start somewhere.

As for not overly negative on this post? What about a personal attack from someone who said she would laugh at me when I couldn't find a job? Don't mean to harp on this, but I'm really trying to brighten the outlook. We're professionals with an amazing education! Let's get some jobs.
 
TheVetVetVetVet said:
Residencies/ Internships/ Specializations! This is a strong alternative job/ career choice. How is the job market for specialists? Anyone know?
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Not that strong. Although the pay is slightly higher once you have finished (with residency, not really for internships), you forgo several years of potential income for it and have to put your loans in forbearance, which can be pricey if you have a high interest rate - internships/residencies pay very little. Overall you may come out ahead, but the first few years are quite difficult. The job market for specialists is not much better than for regular GP vets.
 
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I don't want to sound jaded, but is anyone else seeing this push by their vet school to pursue internships as a cop out way for them to avoid mass hysteria from their students not finding jobs? I suspect it's so they can send off everyone all happy at graduation with somewhere to go, rather than with a cloud of gloom of impending unemployment. If you can't get a job after an internship, obviously, that's your fault and possibly the internship's... not the school's. I've talked to a few people from other vet schools and they have told me their school's admin pushes them in the same direction so I don't think I'm the anomaly (or am I?).

Or am I interpreting this all wrong? Why would schools push and shove their students into internships when they know that there are very few residency spots per internship spot, and that most interns don't end up as residents. And seriously, residency is NOT for everyone. So why insist on it, knowing that we are up to our ears in debt? Knowing that many internships out there are crap (i.e. super cheap labor for overnight ER shifts with very little mentoring)? IF the internship is fabulous and will turn me into an amazing confident vet, then yes I agree that would be something I would LOVE to take part in. But is that practical for someone who is in serious debt and will be going into GP? Is our education so horrible that we can't learn on the job for our first GP employment?

Next time an ivory tower person on the throne gets all indignant that I'm resistant to the idea of an internship, I dunno if I should slap them or start bawling to let them know how much they're hurtin ma feelins.
 
Do most schools push for internships?

We had a bunch of vets come talk to our class about the internship dilemma and they were very divided on the issue. I felt like if anything most people were saying don't do one.
 
bunnity said:
Do most schools push for internships?

We had a bunch of vets come talk to our class about the internship dilemma and they were very divided on the issue. I felt like if anything most people were saying don't do one.
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huh... that's interesting. Are you talking about lunch/dinner talks and such, or dean/influential established head-of-department type clinicians? I've def gone to talks and such where it was reiterated over and over that internships are a bad idea (outside speakers and candid discussions with residents). But the peeps representing "the school" at least in my experience have been big internship pushers.
 
I would argue that if you have any interest in specializing do an internship. If you are confident you do not want to specialize, go straight into a job--ideally one with some support (ie not congrats I am going on vacation in a month have fun!).

I did an internship and found it to be a great experience (I was on the fence on residency). I have decided not to pursue residency and am working instead. The job market is rough especially if you have any geographical restrictions.

If people want to talk about internships feel free to PM me, I don't check the board that often.

Good luck!
 
Minnerbelle said:
huh... that's interesting. Are you talking about lunch/dinner talks and such, or dean/influential established head-of-department type clinicians? I've def gone to talks and such where it was reiterated over and over that internships are a bad idea (outside speakers and candid discussions with residents). But the peeps representing "the school" at least in my experience have been big internship pushers.
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A fourth year said something pretty insightful that I might pass on:

The vet school is run by faculty who completed an internship and residency; it's why/how they're in academia. When we ask them for career advice we have to take their opinion with a grain of salt as they're biased professionals who are advocating for the career path they followed.

But then again it could also be a giant conspiracy. I just thought I might throw this possibility out there.
 
@TheVetVetVetVet Negative? Sorry about that. I wasn't trying to rain on your parade.

I was trying to make sure you knew you needed an umbrella 'cause it's pouring out here in the real world.

I do agree that a positive attitude is an important determinant in finding employment, as is out of the box thinking. In fact, I think the incredible pressure we are all facing now in the employment market will result in extension of the veterinary profession into areas we never even thought of before. People can't just go the "open (or work in) a practice" route now like we used to be able to count on doing.
 
Minnerbelle said:
I don't want to sound jaded, but is anyone else seeing this push by their vet school to pursue internships as a cop out way for them to avoid mass hysteria from their students not finding jobs? I suspect it's so they can send off everyone all happy at graduation with somewhere to go, rather than with a cloud of gloom of impending unemployment.
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In general, getting an internship is more competitive than getting a GP job.
 
justavet said:
@TheVetVetVetVet Negative? Sorry about that. I wasn't trying to rain on your parade.

I was trying to make sure you knew you needed an umbrella 'cause it's pouring out here in the real world.

I do agree that a positive attitude is an important determinant in finding employment, as is out of the box thinking. In fact, I think the incredible pressure we are all facing now in the employment market will result in extension of the veterinary profession into areas we never even thought of before. People can't just go the "open (or work in) a practice" route now like we used to be able to count on doing.
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Thank you and WORD. I bought two umbrellas after getting into this post.
 
I've heard that Internships/ specializations require pretty high GPA's. I've also heard that surgery and ophthalmology require about 3.8 or higher in DVM. Is this true?

Is GPA the main factor that decides who get the spots? Do other specializations allow for lower GPA's?
 
Minnerbelle said:
huh... that's interesting. Are you talking about lunch/dinner talks and such, or dean/influential established head-of-department type clinicians? I've def gone to talks and such where it was reiterated over and over that internships are a bad idea (outside speakers and candid discussions with residents). But the peeps representing "the school" at least in my experience have been big internship pushers.
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Somewhere between those two - it was our Professional Foundations class, which is an elective but pretty much everybody takes. The speakers were brought in by our professor, who as far as I know just teaches this class (she is in industry for her regular job).

Our dean isn't really involved with us like that... I didn't even know who she was until second year 😛
 
TheVetVetVetVet said:
I've heard that Internships/ specializations require pretty high GPA's. I've also heard that surgery and ophthalmology require about 3.8 or higher in DVM. Is this true?

Is GPA the main factor that decides who get the spots? Do other specializations allow for lower GPA's?
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GPA is considered, but definitely not the main factor. LORs are extremely important, as are shown dedication to the chosen field by participating in externships and electives - you have to show them you want it.

GPA may be used as an initial "weed-out" for the most popular specialties, but it isn't a guarantee of acceptance by a long shot.
 
Get your umbrellas 🙁

2012 JAVMA Senior Survey summary

Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association
October 1, 2012, Vol. 241, No. 7, Pages 890-894 doi: 10.2460/javma.241.7.890
Employment, starting salaries, and educational indebtedness of year-2012 graduates of US veterinary medical colleges Allison J. Shepherd, MBA; Laura Pikel, BS

Survey offered to 2686 (entire US CVM senior population).
2502 responded.
2501 provided debt data.
2410 looked for paying work.
1272 provided salary data.

43 took a job in public practice.
547 got a job in private practice, down 17% from 2011
-49 in food animal, down 14%
-112 in mixed, down 20.6%
-3 in equine, down 91.9%
-362 in companion animal, down 14%
727 went to advanced education (internship/residency/dual degree), down 5.7% from 2011
1093 were at odd ends.

590/2410 makes an effective employment rate of 24.5%

89.2% (2232) had debt.
92% of debt was from vet school.
Mean debt was $151,162, up 6.4% from 2011
22% had debt > $200,000

$65,998 was the mean starting salary in private practice, down 1.0% from 2011
$29,628 for those in advanced education; up 1.8% from 2011


For context, 4729 took the NAVLE, 3879 passed
4118 takers and 3653 passers were from accredited schools
as there are 2686 US seniors, 4118-2686= 1432 foreign accredited enrollment
http://www.nbvme.org/image/cache/techreport11.pdf
 
When was this survey administered? The 2011 one that I found seems like it was administered some time before graduation, which would make it less surprising that people didn't have jobs yet.
 
bunnity said:
When was this survey administered? The 2011 one that I found seems like it was administered some time before graduation, which would make it less surprising that people didn't have jobs yet.
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the 2011 was administered right around the time of graduation, if I remember correctly. It was only 1-2 before if it was before for me.

I will second (third? fourth? fifth?) that the job market right now is tough. And for veterinary jobs, I really would stay away from Craigslist.
 
bunnity said:
When was this survey administered? The 2011 one that I found seems like it was administered some time before graduation, which would make it less surprising that people didn't have jobs yet.
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From the article,

"Surveys were distributed approximately 4 weeks before graduation for each school or college, and the survey instrument remained active until graduation."
 
Thank you! I couldn't find the original article.
 
justavet said:
2410 looked for paying work.

43 took a job in public practice.
547 got a job in private practice, down 17% from 2011
727 went to advanced education (internship/residency/dual degree), down 5.7% from 2011
1093 were at odd ends.

590/2410 makes an effective employment rate of 24.5%
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Well wait a minute. 24.5% is an inaccurate representation here of "employment rate" if you're going to make that claim. IMO you either need to add the 727 that went into advanced education to the numerator (they DO have jobs..), or you need to subtract them from the denominator (they were not looking for jobs in competition with the 590 in public/private practice).

So either 1317/2410 = 54.6% or 590/1683 = 35%

Not that those numbers are super awesome or anything as far as job prospects, but they're not quite so bad as 1/4...
 
lol lies, damn lies and statistics, eh?

That's an 'effective' employment rate. IOW, only 24.5% are employed in the field, at an average salary that is determined by the competitive market.

they were not looking for jobs in competition with the 590 in public/private practice.
We actually don't know that. Just as we don't know the reverse- some of the 727 in advanced ed might have wanted to be in practice. There was a line in the article about how many got their first choice, but I don't remember if it applied to all, or just those in practice.

24, 35, 54% ... it's all rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Man justavet, you are really good at making me feel all warm inside...
Believe me I wish I had something else to lay on the table.

Stay tuned.
 
What would be really nice is a follow up questionnaire 6mos later even if just of those who were unemployed at graduation, asking about their employment, their debt level, what they've done since graduation, what resources they've used, etc... It would be nice to know how many people are really f***ed come loan repayment time, and what they plan to do about it. A 1 yr later follow up of those coming out of internships (and those who still were unemployed at 6 mos) would be nice too. I know it would be harder to get questionnaires returned the later it gets, but maybe it could work if there were good incentives (free Avma or vin dues, free registration to some worthwhile CE's, etc...)

And Bill, not that I'm doubting you or anything, but what makes you say that internships are more competitive than jobs? Looking at the numbers (I'm guessing a pretty large percentage of the ~730 post-grad training programs are internships), it seems like there are a comparable number of "work" positions if not less. Obviously an internship at places like Angell or at vet schools or reputable specialty clinics with established programs is going to be super competitive. But I was under the impression that there were several bottom of the barrel slave labor internships (perhaps not through the match) that were of little educational value that people end up taking because "it's better than being unemployed." Is that not true? I just hear a lot of stories and it's really difficult to figure out where the truth lies.
 
Some numbers from the article:
2410 were looking for paid position
1482 received at least one offer
1317 accepted
1107 got their first choice
so
46% got their first choice (1107/2410)
9% didn't get their first choice ie (1317-1107)/2410
38.5% got no choice ie (2410-1482)/2410
11% of jobs weren't worth having ie (1482-1317)/1482

@Minnerbelle I like this line of thinking about getting followup. Can I spread these ideas/send this quote to some people to get them thinking about it?

As far as internships go? There is no oversight of internships. Anybody who wants to can call anything they want to an internship. The AVMA had a task force on it a year or two ago.
Here's the final report https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Reports/Documents/TFOVI-report-veterinary-internships-120402.pdf

One of the students on the task force went on to write a commentary about it that got published in JAVMA.

A call for internship quality control
Geller, Bartels, Wilson, Pion
JAVMA April 15, 2012, Vol. 240, No. 8, Pages 939-942
doi: 10.2460/javma.240.8.939
 
I am underemployed and unless I want to move and bid my 6 year old daughter goodbye, I am stuck here: in a town that has TWICE as many vets as it did 5 years ago. I teach 3 lab classes a week, to the tune of $1000 a month and I cannot find regular vet work in town as the market is glutted. I am going next week to a place an hour away to see about doing some emergency shifts (I worked for several years doing emergency medicine and trauma surgery at a referral place). Yes, that is an HOUR away, at night. And the pay is so crappy that I cannot afford an overnight sitter for her, so that means I will have to give up even more custody. Awesome. And, my student loans are almost half of what I make teaching. So, I am literally underwater right now. When I graduated, I had 7 job offers. Good luck to you all with more crushing student debt. Negative? yes. Realistic, yes.
 
Agree about the follow-up. I'd like to see a survey done now of the 2011 graduates. IOW, they're done with their internships, how are they faring in the job market? and for the ones without a job at graduation, how are they employed one year later?
 
Also, was there any editorial commentary when this was published? Any addressing by AVMA of an unemployment rate of 65-75%? That's an astounding eye-opener.
 
OK, I have an idea. I am fairly familiar with the original survey. I'll make a survey form in googledocs that asks follow up questions. Answers dump straight into a spreadsheet for analysis.
Let's face it- nobody else is going to do it. Why shouldn't we?

How can we get the survey to 2011 grads?
 
justavet said:
OK, I have an idea. I am fairly familiar with the original survey. I'll make a survey form in googledocs that asks follow up questions. Answers dump straight into a spreadsheet for analysis.
Let's face it- nobody else is going to do it. Why shouldn't we?

How can we get the survey to 2011 grads?
Click to expand...

Shout out on VIN, contact schools and ask them to either provide information to you or send out the survey for you, or.contact the AVMA and see if they are willing to help you.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile
 
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