LAC+USC vs Harbor

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SDEM2012

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Thoughts?

I'm having a really hard time with these two. As far as I can tell they are extremely similar with a few exceptions:
- Harbor has more research opportunity
- LAC+USC is 4 years and has a nicer hospital
Both have great faculty, great patients, great trauma, and good reputations.

I can't decide whether research or the 4th year is more important to me since I'm potentially interested in a critical care fellowship. Is anyone else going through the same problem?

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Thoughts?

I'm having a really hard time with these two. As far as I can tell they are extremely similar with a few exceptions:
- Harbor has more research opportunity
- LAC+USC is 4 years and has a nicer hospital
Both have great faculty, great patients, great trauma, and good reputations.

I can't decide whether research or the 4th year is more important to me since I'm potentially interested in a critical care fellowship. Is anyone else going through the same problem?

I liked Harbor's hospital WAY better when I interviewed. Give me an open ED with curtains (so I can see and learn from every sick patient even if they are not picked up primarily by me) over an industrial modern podded ED with double fire doors separating every section any day. It will be sad when Harbor's new ED opens in a couple of years (haven't seen plans, hopefully they're doing it right and learning from USC's mistakes). By all accounts USC's old ED was AWESOME and in a moment of candid honesty my guess is most USC senior residents and attendings will tell you that they wish they could bring the old ED back.
 
I liked Harbor's hospital WAY better when I interviewed. Give me an open ED with curtains (so I can see and learn from every sick patient even if they are not picked up primarily by me) over an industrial modern podded ED with double fire doors separating every section any day. It will be sad when Harbor's new ED opens in a couple of years (haven't seen plans, hopefully they're doing it right and learning from USC's mistakes). By all accounts USC's old ED was AWESOME and in a moment of candid honesty my guess is most USC senior residents and attendings will tell you that they wish they could bring the old ED back.

Meh...I don't think that's true. Most new ED's across the country that I've seen are going to pods - it just makes so much more sense and improves patient flow. I'm sure Harbor's will be similar and it would open by the time we start 2nd year, so I think that's a wash.
 
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Thoughts?

I'm having a really hard time with these two. As far as I can tell they are extremely similar with a few exceptions:
- Harbor has more research opportunity
- LAC+USC is 4 years and has a nicer hospital
Both have great faculty, great patients, great trauma, and good reputations.

I can't decide whether research or the 4th year is more important to me since I'm potentially interested in a critical care fellowship. Is anyone else going through the same problem?
That's funny that you got the sense that Harbor has more research opportunity. I actually felt the opposite. With Jerry Hoffman now leading the research division at LAC+USC, a research fellowship, a med school that is now focusing on research literally across the street, and the appointment of their new chairman (Sean Henderson--who previously led their research division) I felt LAC+USC led in this area.

Regarding critical care post residency, per the LAC+USC EM website, two of their class of 2011 matched into critical care-- one at Mayo and one at Stanford.

My opinion in comparing the two programs: they're obviously both great with amazing faculty, unparalleled pathology, and great reputations. Overall, I think Harbor may have had the edge 10 yrs ago, but I think LAC+USC is definitely the better program now. The didactics/Grand Rounds at LAC+USC are unbelievable (it's like EMrap every week), the fact that they run every airway code and code blue in the entire hospital (including in the units), and how the residents and attendings seem so very very happy to be there pushes LAC+USC ahead in my mind. They will be number #1 on my rank list. I hope they feel the same about me.
 
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If you think you'll prolly do a fellowship, my 2 cents would be to go for the 3 year program.
 
That's funny that you got the sense that Harbor has more research opportunity. I actually felt the opposite. With Jerry Hoffman now leading the research division at LAC+USC, a research fellowship, a med school that is now focusing on research literally across the street, and the appointment of their new chairman (Sean Henderson--who previously led their research division) I felt LAC+USC led in this area.

Regarding critical care post residency, per the LAC+USC EM website, two of their class of 2011 matched into critical care-- one at Mayo and one at Stanford.

My opinion in comparing the two programs: they're obviously both great with amazing faculty, unparalleled pathology, and great reputations. Overall, I think Harbor may have had the edge 10 yrs ago, but I think LAC+USC is definitely the better program now. The didactics/Grand Rounds at LAC+USC are unbelievable (it's like EMrap every week), the fact that they run every airway code and code blue in the entire hospital (including in the units), and how the residents and attendings seem so very very happy to be there pushes LAC+USC ahead in my mind. They will be number #1 on my rank list. I hope they feel the same about me.

.
 
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Jerry Hoffman is no longer at UCLA?
Per the LAC+USC site (www.uscdem.org), Hoffman joined LAC+USC in 2010. He is involved weekly in grand rounds, journal club, he leads the research division, and I believe he has some role in faculty development.

He is not listed as faculty on the UCLA site, so I am not sure if he has much of a role there anymore.
 
Both outstanding programs with jaw dropping pathology. Not to be crass, but keep in mind that that 4th year will cost you ~225k & prolong your time to starting an academic career. Carefully consider an investment of that magnitude this early in your career.
 
Both outstanding programs with jaw dropping pathology. Not to be crass, but keep in mind that that 4th year will cost you ~225k & prolong your time to starting an academic career. Carefully consider an investment of that magnitude this early in your career.


Please forgive my remarks that follow as they are not intended in any way to be personal...But, I am in general quite weary of this argument. I feel it is both inarticulate and a gross over-simplification. If you should be truely worried about anything "early in your career" it should be getting the best education you can; which, to be clear, can be at either a three year or four year program. You have a life of $225k+ ahead of you but you will do your EM training exactly once. You do not need to fear financial ruin because you choose a 4 year program. Just find the place that provides you the best opportunity for learning EM and rank it number 1. If that is at a 4 year program, cool; if it is a three year program, also cool. We are quite fortunate to have such a variety of places to train in EM, something for everyone.

To the OP, as for picking between these two programs, I recommend looking at where the graduates over the past couple years have gone and decide which graduates better reflect what you are shooting for at the completion of your residency. Both are great programs with excellent national reputations.

Good luck,
iride
 
Hi everyone - I'm currently an intern at Harbor and was considering Harbor and USC when applying last year.

First of all, you really can't go wrong - both programs will give you excellent training to pursue your desired career. The 3 vs 4 year decision is a personal choice, depending on what is important to you.

In the end, I don't think that either program has an "edge" on the other (I'm biased, but I also didn't hear that from other residents/attendings across the country). I do think, however, that the two programs do have different personalities in residents, faculty, and patients. For me, spending a day or so in the ED, outside of interview day was extremely helpful. I would highly recommend that, wherever your top 2 or 3 choices are.

Anyway, feel free to message me with any questions about Harbor.

Good luck with your decisions!
 
Both good programs, plenty of "county" patients (aka 80% chronic non-emergent issues because of a lack of primary care, 20% sick). Not a ton of really complicated or bizarre pathology (LVAD problems, ECMO patients, transplant problems, etc) but a good amount of county medical issues of all manner. Both are big programs with tons of residents on shift (good and bad - lots of back up, but nobody is terribly efficient at graduation, which is the coin of the realm in the real world). Slightly different patient demographics.
 
solid bump, strong work.[/QUOTE

contrary to medical students' takes, most of county medicine is primary care. sorry. if you want to be scared, go somewhere with a big academic center. the patients are just going to be sicker and have more complicated issues. and you might learn something from the world class cardiologist/pulm person consulting on your bizarre patient. do what you want, it isn't anything against county programs. just being realistic and trying to poke some reality into the med student hype.
 

No, if you want to be scared, work in a small, rural underserved agricultural community where it's single coverage and miles from tertiary care. That's scary.
 
contrary to medical students' takes, most of county medicine is primary care. sorry. if you want to be scared, go somewhere with a big academic center. the patients are just going to be sicker and have more complicated issues. and you might learn something from the world class cardiologist/pulm person consulting on your bizarre patient. do what you want, it isn't anything against county programs. just being realistic and trying to poke some reality into the med student hype.

This is a large generalization which is not valid in many contexts depending on the setup of the system; just as many academic programs have very different environments and patient populations, this is true of county facilities as well. Many of your assertions are sweeping generalizations about types of programs with an unclear evidence base for the statements, yet ones that use absolute terminology (e.g., "nobody is terribly efficient at graduation" - when at the community sites that I work with myself and other county graduates are actually in the fastest third for ED length of stay).

Having been at a large-volume high-acuity county hospital for 7 years (and currently also working in multiple community sites) this has not at all been my experience. We have a system in place where low acuity complaints and primary care issues either get shunted to urgent care or get seen by the NPs in the front or by the fast track resident in front. My last shift had multiple intubations and other procedures, multiple ICU admissions, and probably did include some primary care but not enough to really register on my radar. Having many clinical faculty who attend in both settings, their collective experience has certainly not been that the big academic center is the "scariest" to work in with nearly unlimited backup. There's honestly no objectively better or worse program structure which is why everyone's rank lists look different but rather which program's particular strengths and weaknesses are better aligned with applicant goals and anticipated practice environment. This is what we should be emphasizing to medical students to allow them to align with a program that best meets their anticipated goals. Patients at a tertiary academic center will be more likely to have bizarre conditions and presentations and be sick - this may or may not be high yield training for some people's anticipated practice goals and setting. Patients at a county hospital with no access to primary care will be more likely to have end-stage presentations of severe disease and be sick - this may or may not be high yield training for some people's anticipated practice goals and setting.

I would caution individuals to make blanket statements about types of programs without looking into the nuance of each program. The statement "academic centers are the mecca for academic productivity" may be true of some programs and yet not true at others. Our county program has more past SAEM presidents than any other institution in the country, are incredibly academically productive, is the birthplace of WikEM, and clinically our residents took multiple national championships at ACEP SimWars. Single barometers for academic productivity are unlikely to elucidate the breadth of scholarly work people are involved in across the country.

Are there weaknesses of county programs that are more prevalent in these types of programs (e.g., funding, lack of access to care, etc.)? Sure, but there is probably more differences between individual county programs than similarities across those domains. Are there weaknesses of tertiary academic centers that are more prevalent in these types of programs (e.g., doing more "triaging" to specialists than application of care, higher proportions of pathology that is not reflected/as useful in community practice, etc.)? Sure, but there is probably more differences between individual academic programs than similarities across those domains.
 
I would caution individuals to make blanket statements about types of programs without looking into the nuance of each program.
Thank you for your very insightful and, and IMO, very accurate post. One of my biggest frustrations, however, on SDN and amongst MS4s on the interview trail, is the notion that county programs are ALL about doing ED thoracotomies and and crichs ALL day EVERY day (note the extremes of language that I intentionally used). It's like somewhere, somehow, probably due to Code Black or some other form of media, there has been this notion that the badass county ED resident with his mismatched scrub top and cargo pants, patagonia vest and crocs is just saving lives 24/7 in epic fashion. That, to me, is a gross misrepresentation of what occurs at county facilities. Yes, they see high acuity patients. But, as a safety net hospital, they see low acuity patients as well. Overall they provide very well balanced training. This idea that there are no academic opportunities at county hospitals is ludicrous since the bastion of EM medical education was born at LAC+USC (EM:RAP), the editors of Rosens are at Harbor, and some of the most influential research in prehospital care is coming out of Hennepin.

When you look at many of the most coveted spots in EM residencies, many of them are at county programs. If you care about a well balanced education, have a desire to serve the underserved etc, these are great places to train. But, I personally believe that some people choose county programs for the misinformed "sex" appeal of working there. Having rotated at a few county hospitals in medical school, I remember pushing patients to CT scanners. I remember many of the residents being overworked, and taking care of your typical non-english speaking patient with "total body dolor" that ultimately revealed NO emergent cause of illness that should have been worked up by a PMD (which they did not have access to). These aspects of the county experience are simply not part of the narrative and not openly shared when discussing these programs.

Do academic programs have low acuity as well? Absolutely. As a resident at an academic hospital I am constantly barraged by patients with "expensive" health insurance who show up to the ED with a stubbed toe and request that their "personal doctor" be notified immediately and see them in the ED right this instant. It's true, I see the bowel transplant patient who I literally just pick up a phone and call the consultant and write a note. But I also see a ton of high acuity penetrating trauma, do a lot of awake fiberoptic intubations without anesthesia/ENT backup, and have already done 2 perimortem c-sections in residency (granted with OB backup).

The idea that county programs are all high acuity and no primary care is false. The idea that all academic programs are all consult calling without any ownership of patients is false. There are academic programs in this country that see more penetrating trauma than some county programs. There are county programs that put out more research and more influential publications than some academic programs.

In other words, I agree you with you completely, just was chiming in and giving my thoughts on the subject.

But while there is no doubt on SDN in particular that county programs all give great training (a statement I would agree with), I think academic programs here do get shafted and are often misrepresented more so than county programs for being full of just a bunch of nerds who wear their white coats on shift and never know how to resuscitate a patient without calling a consult first. I remember rotating at a county hospital and one resident in particular (a particular bad egg, not a reflection of all county residents) said "academic training is subpar, in county medicine we own our patients and actually deliver emergency care instead of just calling consults 24/7 and having others do the life saving procedures". I remember being really turned off by that comment, as what you alluded to in your post, it was nothing more than a sweeping generalization. Regardless, that "mindset" towards academic programs does persist in some aspects of our specialty and frankly I think it's unwarranted.
 
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I'm a senior resident at the UCLA-Olive View program and I have to back up RPedigo on this one. Our Olive View patients are true county patients, and the challenge with county patients is that they sneak up on you (like the walk-in dissection presenting as a cough). They're often 45 with the body of a 70-year-old (who also has TB). I'm sure RPedigo would agree about how challenging these patients can be. All I can say is that we get plenty of very sick people in our county sites; I intubated (had the intern intubate) two yesterday. And out at Antelope Valley (where we rotate for three months and which is the safety net hospital in the northeast part of the county), it seems like each patient is sicker than the next (I onced intubated 7 people in a shift). The point is, there are sick patients in all kinds of settings, contrary to what hotdogger seems to be saying. The county patients wait to seek care and then end up being like a ruptured ectopic that got triaged to the low-acuity area in the far back as "gastritis." That's what keeps you on your toes. Ronald Reagan (the main UCLA academic center) has very sick patients and the transplants and the exotic pathology and ECMO and all that, but I don't know that one environment is "scarier" than another. In the end, if you're an ER doctor you're going to be taking care of sick/damaged people, wherever you train or work. I think the main thing is to rank programs according to what appeals to you and where you think you'll fit in. It's called a "match" for a reason. And for the record, both USC and Harbor are great programs that produce great doctors.
 
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