(Lack of) Momentum when Dropping Objects?

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justadream

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TBR Physics book 2 p95 #9


“As a hot-air balloon ascends upward at a constant speed, a package is dropped out of the balloon. At the instant the package is released, the momentum of the balloon:


Correct Answer: INCREASES

I have 2 questions about this:

1) Does it matter that the package was simply dropped (as opposed to thrown out of the balloon)? The question says “dropped” but the answer key talks about it being “thrown”

2) If “dropped” is okay, then does that mean if I am standing still and holding an apple, the second I drop the apple, I experience momentum upwards?
 
If the velocity is constant, before the package is released the Force(Buoyant) = Force (gravity).

When the package is released, the mass of the balloon/basket/etc decreased and the Force(gravity) decreases, so the Force(Buoyant) will cause the balloon to accelerate upwards and increase the velocity of the balloon so by p = mv, p will increase.

1) I think you are looking at the problem in a more complex way than is required. Though I think it don't think it matters if thrown or dropped. If you drop it then there is no impulse. If thrown downwards it will have an upwards normal impulse on your hand - and unless you are connected rigidly to balloon, will not accelerate it.

2) No, dropping an apple will not exert an upwards force on your hand as you did not exert a downwards force.
 
@Cawolf

But how do you know that the increase in velocity "outweighs" (no pun intended) the decrease in mass of the balloon (since by dropping the object, you lose mass)?
 
Losing mass decreases the downward force while the upwards buoyant force remains constant. Therefore the only net force is upwards.

The mass of the air displaced by the balloon is not changing - only the force of gravity by the overall mass.
 
@Cawolf

Okay I see how the net force will be doing up. But isn't the momentum of the balloon = (mass of balloon and whatever its carrying) * (velocity of the balloon)?

Are you implying that only the mass of the air inside the balloon counts for the momentum calculation?

Because if you lose mass by dropping the object, I can understand how the net force will be upwards (increasing velocity) but the mass of the balloon (and whatever its carrying) has to go down.

Also, this is probably a dumb question but going back to the dropping apple scenario, how is momentum conserved when I drop an apple if the apple accelerates but I don't have any change in momentum?
 
Oh I see what you are saying. That is a good point. Think about the fact that it isn't a static increase in velocity but a net force that will cause a constant upwards acceleration. The velocity will continue to increase in this situation - resulting in a net increase in momentum.

Momentum is conserved if you drop an apple because m1v1 = m2v2 and both the initial and final velocity are zero. So there is no net change in momentum. There is some momentum during the fall as potential energy is converted to kinetic energy, but when the apple hits the ground and the energy is converted to heat - the final kinetic energy is zero. So momentum is conserved in this system of the apple but energy is not.
 
@Cawolf

Well at some point the net force will decrease to 0 when the buoyant force decreases (due to air being thinner at higher altitudes).

So how do you know that the net force (supplying the acceleration that increases velocity) will be greater than 0 for long enough that it overcomes the "loss in momentum" from the object being dropped?

As in, how do you know for sure the net force (supplying the acceleration) will be the more significant factor in the end?


----
With regard to the apple question, I'm talking about the second the apple leaves your hand (not when it hits the ground).

When it leaves your hand, the apple has a negative velocity and a negative momentum. How is that being conserved (doesn't something have to experience some positive momentum to compensate? If so, what is it?)
 
I think from a lot of your posts you tend to look way past the "easy" answer, which is often what these problems are written for. If you start including a change in density of air with altitude, then indeed it will level off. For the purposes of this question though, I think looking at the simple model is best.

When the apple leaves your hand it has zero velocity and zero momentum. As it falls due to a downward acceleration from gravity - it will indeed gain momentum and velocity. When it strikes the ground it will transfer that momentum to the ground. If there is no force applied at the hand then there is no opposite force.
 
Im going to say this is one of the most garbage question/answer combinations I have seen in a while. The answer is simply wrong. The correct answer is B, decreases. Also the answer key it is riddled with errors, so here goes:

As a hot-air balloon ascends upward at a constant speed, a package is dropped out of the balloon. At the instant the package is released, the momentum of the balloon:
A. increases. <-- Stated answer
B. decreases. <-- Actual Answer
C. is unaffected because the force does notchange.
D. is unaffected because the decrease in mass is compensated by an increase in velocity.


[EDIT added a TLDR] Explanation:... At the instant the package is dropped you are decreasing the mass of the system while the velocity is unchanged.... Yes the balloon will begin accelerating upward but it takes time for velocity to change, some arbitrary amount of time that could be anywhere from a few seconds to minutes before the change in velocity compensates for the loss of mass. And this question is asking about the momentum at the instant of release. Mass is lost, velocity is not changed.
[end edit]

Answer Key Explanation:
Choice A is the best answer. Momentum is conserved in the absence of a net external force. The balloon-package system is
initially moving vertically upward at constant speed, so this system is experiencing no net external force. Under these
conditions, the force of gravity is equal to the buoyant force, neglecting any resistance. Throwing a package out of the
balloon will slightly decrease the gravitational force on the balloon, because the balloon now has less mass. It will therefore
accelerate upward, increasing its speed and thus increasing its momentum too. The solution is also found by noting that the
system is initially in equilibrium. When the package is released it has momentum downward, so the balloon must have an
increase in momentum upward to balance out the package's downward momentum. The best answer is choice A.
Now to begin ripping the explanation apart. Remember that the question is... "At the instant the package is released, the momentum of the balloon:"

Throwing a package out of the balloon will slightly decrease the gravitational force on the balloon, because the balloon now has less mass. It will therefore accelerate upward, increasing its speed and thus increasing its momentum too.
No. This argument is saying that as you decrease mass of balloon the buoyant force will cause an instantaneous acceleration increasing it's speed. This has nothing to do with momentum at the instant the package is released. Even with a net upward acceleration after the package is dropped it would take time for the speed of the balloon to increase... At the exact instant that the package is dropped the mass of the system is lower while the speed is the exact same as it was the moment prior. No time has passed to allow for speed to increase. Therefore momentum (p=mv) has decreased because mass is less and velocity is unchanged ("yet").

This "yet" is extremely crucial and changes the answer. At the instant the package is released you must accept the fact that the balloons velocity is the same as it was the moment immediately prior to release. No time has passed so if you remove the mass of the package from the system, then the mass of the balloon is now lower. Accepting that is as simple as understanding that the instant you drop a ball, it's velocity begins at zero. There is no denying this.

When the package is released it has momentum downward, so the balloon must have an increase in momentum upward to balance out the package's downward momentum.
Serious TBR? Srs? This is also blatantly wrong. :nono: The question states that the package is "released", as in let go with no force exerted. So it does not have momentum downward. In fact the instant before release the balloon and package were moving at a constant velocity up, so it reasons that at the instant of release the package is still moving up and therefore, the momentum of the package at release is UP!. Again answer is wrong, wow.

I'm not going to go into the fact that they are trying to say the package is "launched" down so the balloon must have launched up because that argument is no longer valid.
@ TBR
upload_2014-7-23_14-26-30.png


@justadream I am glad you asked about this question and I find validity in most of your questions and conclusions of this problem.
 
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I think that even though the wording is slightly off, the answer is still the most correct answer. One thing I considered when answering this question is whether the package and balloon were the same system.

If you were to set up the net force of the balloon before release as F(net) = F(buoyant) - M(balloon)g - M(package)g then the balloon is experiencing no net force. When the downwards force exerted by the package is removed, the mass of the balloon is constant while it accelerates upwards. Sure, at time = 0 the velocity will not have increased, but directly after it will - even marginally.
 
The wording is entirely off which changes the answer. "At the instant" is a hard phrase to argue with.
You can't just say 5 seconds later or 10 minutes later.. The word "Later" in and of itself is not at the instant something is occurring.


The whole point of the question is about change of momentum at release. If you drop the package and calculate momentum 5 seconds later, how does that have anything to do with dropping the package? Because you could calculate the momentum again after 10 seconds and get a new momentum value because it is accelerating upward.

Determining momentum at any time interval beyond the instant the package is dropped is not really a momentum problem anymore. <--- Think about this
At that point you are just arbitrarily saying that "hey, if you make this balloon go faster it will gain momentum". Time would have passed and the change in mass at that point is really moot.

If you are trying to argue that the balloon eventually gains enough velocity to have an overall increase in momentum, then you are basically just looking at a change in velocity from some time after you dropped the package, to some later time even longer after you dropped the package, but that is not what the question was asking.

Awful question.

{edit}
Sure, at time = 0 the velocity will not have increased, but directly after it will - even marginally.
I just want to address this specifically because it sounds like you are under the impression that at t=0.0001 the answer will be valid and I want to clarify.

Directly after dropping the package there is NO way the momentum of the balloon would have increased. Say for instance you dropped a very large sandbag equal to 1/2 the mass of the system. If initially the constant upward velocity was a speedy 2 meters/sec it would need to achieve a new velocity of 4 meters/sec for the new momentum to surpass the old momentum.

Initially at T=0 the momentum has decreased to HALF it's original value. At T=0.001 it would still be very close to half it's original value.
Yes after a second, new momentum would have surpassed the original, and after 10 seconds it would really be flying, but in the instant after dropping, or even the very short moments AFTER dropping, momentum is extremely decreased.
 
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the answer is wrong. Momentum decreases at the instant the package is dropped. At the instant you release the package, mass is discounted from the balloon immediately but gaining of velocity is not. at the time the package is dropped, v=vi becomes v=vi+at, but velocity is evaluated at t=0 which is v=vi. momentum of the balloon decreases simply due to the decrease in mass.
 
I just want to address this specifically because it sounds like you are under the impression that at t=0.0001 the answer will be valid and I want to clarify.

Directly after dropping the package there is NO way the momentum of the balloon would have increased. Say for instance you dropped a very large sandbag equal to 1/2 the mass of the system. If initially the constant upward velocity was a speedy 2 meters/sec it would need to achieve a new velocity of 4 meters/sec for the new momentum to surpass the old momentum.

Initially at T=0 the momentum has decreased to HALF it's original value. At T=0.001 it would still be very close to half it's original value.
Yes after a second, new momentum would have surpassed the original, and after 10 seconds it would really be flying, but in the instant after dropping, or even the very short moments AFTER dropping, momentum is extremely decreased.

I mentioned before that the way you are approaching it includes the mass of the package in the mass of the balloon. If you simply remove the weight of the package, the balloon accelerates upwards. If your momentum calculation is just using the mass of the balloon (not the package) - then no mass is lost - so there is a near instant gain in momentum.

I understand what you are saying, but be assured I am not "under the impression" of anything - I simply approached the problem in the way I imagine the author must have to arrive at their answer.

With such a vague question - either answer could be valid.
 
I mentioned before that the way you are approaching it includes the mass of the package in the mass of the balloon. If you simply remove the weight of the package, the balloon accelerates upwards. If your momentum calculation is just using the mass of the balloon (not the package) - then no mass is lost - so there is a near instant gain in momentum.

I understand what you are saying, but be assured I am not "under the impression" of anything - I simply approached the problem in the way I imagine the author must have to arrive at their answer.

With such a vague question - either answer could be valid.
Bro, this question would be considered mistakenly worded based on the author's approach. The author clearly uses the word "dropped," not "thrown downward." If thrown downward is used. Based on conservation of momentum (forget about various forces acting on the package or balloon because it all happens instantaneously), the momentum of the balloon would be increased, because there is an instantaneous gain of downward velocity on the package, and in order to have the instantaneous momentum conserved, the balloon gains upward momentum. conservation of momentum is also applied to the case where the package is dropped. However, velocity is simply the initial velocity for both balloon and package. The only difference before and after release is that package is part of balloon before and becomes a separate part after the release.
 
I mentioned before that the way you are approaching it includes the mass of the package in the mass of the balloon. If you simply remove the weight of the package, the balloon accelerates upwards. If your momentum calculation is just using the mass of the balloon (not the package) - then no mass is lost - so there is a near instant gain in momentum.

I understand what you are saying, but be assured I am not "under the impression" of anything - I simply approached the problem in the way I imagine the author must have to arrive at their answer.

With such a vague question - either answer could be valid.
I follow your separate system scenario that no mass is lost if you break it into two systems but the question seems to imply a conservation of momentum style reasoning (which is mentioned in the solution). If it was asking about the change of momentum over time after the package was released it would need to be asked very differently. The question is just not set up that way so the answer is wrong.

Additionally the explanation does not follow your separate mass approach because one of the answer choices (D) talks about a Decrease in mass being compensated by an increase in velocity.
(D) ...because the decrease in mass...
This implies they know the mass of the system is decreasing but that choice is eliminated because velocity does not change instantly. If choice (D) is admitting that TBR realizes the mass is decreasing, then they should also know that the instantaneous change in momentum is Decreasing. The answer blabs on about change in momentum over time but that is not the question that is asked.

Most importantly the explanation says "because the balloon now has less mass. It will therefore accelerate upward, increasing its speed and thus[1] increasing its momentum too".
This says they know that the mass of the balloon decreased but completely ignore it in the p=mv momentum calculation, saying that velocity is the only important factor. [reference 1]
 
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@DrknoSDN

Thanks for all the responses!

I know the question asks about it being dropped but then the answer explanation talks about it being released (I was like...wtf).

But let's say hypothetically, the question said that the object was thrown down.

What would the answer be in this case (or would it depend on the velocity at which you throw it down)?

Would the answer still be "decreases" because at the moment you throw it down, the velocity of the balloon has not changed while the mass has?
 
@DrknoSDN

Thanks for all the responses!

I know the question asks about it being dropped but then the answer explanation talks about it being released (I was like...wtf).

But let's say hypothetically, the question said that the object was thrown down.

What would the answer be in this case (or would it depend on the velocity at which you throw it down)?

Would the answer still be "decreases" because at the moment you throw it down, the velocity of the balloon has not changed while the mass has?
Bro, I answered your question about being thrown downward two posts earlier. Refer to post # 14
 
@DrknoSDN

Thanks for all the responses!

I know the question asks about it being dropped but then the answer explanation talks about it being released (I was like...wtf).

But let's say hypothetically, the question said that the object was thrown down.

What would the answer be in this case (or would it depend on the velocity at which you throw it down)?

Would the answer still be "decreases" because at the moment you throw it down, the velocity of the balloon has not changed while the mass has?
No. Unfortunately that's not how it works.

If you throw the package down you won't end up with a decrease in momentum because at the instant you threw it down the velocity of both the package and balloon has changed.
If instead you want to end up with an increase in momentum then you would need to throw the package and also make the assumption that the mass and balloon were separate systems and that the mass of the balloon was unchanged.

If the you believe that the mass changes then you basically have a "radioactive decay" conservation of momentum problem where the single system splits into two separate masses (package + balloon). The change in momentum of the balloon would equal the change in momentum of the package.
This quote from the answer: "When the package is released it has momentum downward, so the balloon must have an increase in momentum upward to balance out the package's downward momentum" is essentially radioactive decay momentum. The big problem with this is that for the package to have momentum downward it would need to be thrown and not dropped as stated in the original question.
 
Im going to say this is one of the most garbage question/answer combinations I have seen in a while. The answer is simply wrong. The correct answer is B, decreases. Also the answer key it is riddled with errors, so here goes:

As a hot-air balloon ascends upward at a constant speed, a package is dropped out of the balloon. At the instant the package is released, the momentum of the balloon:
A. increases. <-- Stated answer
B. decreases. <-- Actual Answer
C. is unaffected because the force does notchange.
D. is unaffected because the decrease in mass is compensated by an increase in velocity.

DrKno, thanks for PMing me to reply. I want to keep this as friendly as possible, because it was a nice gesture to message me. But let me start by saying that you are wrong on this question and my post will aim to give correct information to people who read your explanation and were misguided or confused into incorrect thinking.

You have focused on the word instant, so let's consider what that means. In any process or reaction, it is the moment that the change commences. How much time passes seems to be the crux of your argument here, so basically you are making a semantics argument. Those can be some of the most harmful cases of overthinking on the MCAT, but I will address that later.

So let's alter the question slightly to one that perhaps will make it easier for you to visualize. Let's say the balloon and package system were stationary, which is essentially the same idea as moving up at constant speed, given that there is no net force on the system. Instead of having a v with a = 0, we now have v = 0 and a = 0. Both conform to Newton's laws you will agree.

If you were to drop that package, the instant you let go, it will begin to fall and thereby start to increase its downward momentum. Invoking conservation of momentum, we know that in the absence of an external force, that if there is momentum downward, there must be momentum upward to offset this. This is simply minitialvinitial = mfinalvfinal.

By adding the twist of the system moving upward at constant speed, it throws people off in terms of visualization, but the conservation of momentum rule still applies. Instead of momentum starting at 0, it now has a value. The instant the package is released, it will start to fall and increase its downward momentum. That means the upward momentum of what remains must equal the original momentum plus the magnitude of the package's impulse.

There really isn't much more you need to consider beyond basic conservation of momentum.

At the instant the package is dropped you are decreasing the mass of the system while the velocity is unchanged.... Yes the balloon will begin accelerating upward but it takes time for velocity to change, some arbitrary amount of time that could be anywhere from a few seconds to minutes before the change in velocity compensates for the loss of mass. And this question is asking about the momentum at the instant of release. Mass is lost, velocity is not changed.

The instant the package is dropped, the the mass of the remaining system is reduced and its upward velocity will immediately begin to increase. You can't have one change without the other, which is where your argument has gone awry. Again, this follows conservation of momentum but can also be verified by the reduced weight being less than the buoyant force, which explains the acceleration. If you are saying the mass is lost, it is because it has started to fall, which means it has had enough time to change its velocity. If the package had enough time to change its velocity, then so has the balloon, by whatever amount that may be.

Now to begin ripping the explanation apart. Remember that the question is... "At the instant the package is released, the momentum of the balloon:"

This argument is saying that as you decrease mass of balloon the buoyant force will cause an instantaneous acceleration increasing it's speed. This has nothing to do with momentum at the instant the package is released. Even with a net upward acceleration after the package is dropped it would take time for the speed of the balloon to increase... At the exact instant that the package is dropped the mass of the system is lower while the speed is the exact same as it was the moment prior. No time has passed to allow for speed to increase. Therefore momentum (p=mv) has decreased because mass is less and velocity is unchanged ("yet").

This "yet" is extremely crucial and changes the answer. At the instant the package is released you must accept the fact that the balloons velocity is the same as it was the moment immediately prior to release. No time has passed so if you remove the mass of the package from the system, then the mass of the balloon is now lower. Accepting that is as simple as understanding that the instant you drop a ball, it's velocity begins at zero. There is no denying this.

Based on your issue with a recoil scenario here, I assume you take issue with all recoil-based questions using this same reasoning of timing. Using your reasoning of questioning the term instant would be like saying that when you fire a bullet from a gun, at the instant it is fired, there is no recoil and the bullet is stationary because it's less than a nanosecond after the process and therefore not enough time has transpired to allow the bullet to move or the gun to recoil.

The mistake you are making in your reasoning in the BR question is to say that there is enough time for the package to detach from the ballon and cause a change in the mass that remains but not enough time for acceleration to act on the package. If as you are saying, the package has not moved, then it is still a part of the system and nothing as happened. The very instant (sorry for this ambiguous term) the package begins to fall, it is separate from the balloon AND the remaining mass (the balloon etal) increases its momentum upward. If you are having trouble visualizing this, consider a scenario where the package and balloon are of comparable mass. The package will fall with the same increasing speed that the remaining balloon system rises.

Serious TBR? Srs? This is also blatantly wrong. :nono: ... Again answer is wrong, wow.

The PhD physicist who originally wrote this question, the two PhD physicists with extensive teaching experience who edited this question, and many BR physics teachers who have worked with this question feel it is right, and I tend to feel pretty confident believing them.

I hope this helps you to see your error. I also hope that anyone reading this and being confused by the misinformation from DrKno realize that this is what can happen when you overthink a question to the point of questioning what a term like instant means. On the MCAT, that can be a kiss of death, especially when you not only waste time but go from a correct perspective to an incorrect one.
 
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I think that even though the wording is slightly off, the answer is still the most correct answer. One thing I considered when answering this question is whether the package and balloon were the same system.

If you were to set up the net force of the balloon before release as F(net) = F(buoyant) - M(balloon)g - M(package)g then the balloon is experiencing no net force. When the downwards force exerted by the package is removed, the mass of the balloon is constant while it accelerates upwards. Sure, at time = 0 the velocity will not have increased, but directly after it will - even marginally.

EXACTLY!!! Throughout this thread, you have done an excellent job of seeing the concept clearly, keeping the answer simple, and most of all not overthinking. This thread is a perfect example of what can happen when one goes off on an inapplicable tangent and starts to misconstrue the basic concept.

The author clearly uses the word "dropped," not "thrown downward."

I think the issue is that in the explanation it is said to be thrown out (implying that it is outside of the balloon system), but it does not say thrown down. That phase probably should be changed to "released" in the future.

But for what it's worth, thrown versus dropped is irrelevant in this question as it is still a simple conservation of momentum question. The difference in this one compared to more routine ones is that after the event, there is now a force acting on both components from the original system.
 
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I think the issue is that in the explanation it is said to be thrown out (implying that it is outside of the balloon system), but it does not say thrown down. That phase probably should be changed to "released" in the future.

But for what it's worth, thrown versus dropped is irrelevant in this question as it is still a simple conservation of momentum question. The difference in this one compared to more routine ones is that after the event, there is now a force acting on both components from the original system.

Hi, @BerkReviewTeach, no offense. I believe being dropped and thrown make a difference in this question, even though both momentum is conserved and the package is outside the balloon system "at the instant" the ball is released in both cases. Furthermore, simply saying released does not suffice. If you say dropped, the velocity of the package "at the instant" is simply the velocity of the Balloon before the package is released. The conservation of momentum is formulated MiVi=(Mi-Mp)Vi +MpVi. If you say thrown downward, the velocity of the package "at the instant" is different from before the package is released. It implies that the package has a downward change in velocity, the balloon has to gain an upward velocity change to make the case for conservation of momentum. The conservation of momentum should formulated as following. MiVi=(Mi-Mp)(Vi+dV1)+Mp(Vi-dV2). The reason i put subscripts in dVs is that the two dVs are different due to difference in masses between balloon and package after the package and balloon become separate. You also can make a comparison to see the difference. A ball is dropped from the hill, and a ball is thrown downward from a hill. I certainly believe this is an error due to typos, definitely not due to lack of understanding of the two physicists you mentioned in the earlier posts. You know the two physics volumes have around 700 pages, it is possible and understandable for minor human errors or typos. I would not believe the existence of these minor typos would make TBR any inferior than any other similar products. I have personally experienced these minor errors. Before I developed an interest in medicine and returned to school to take prerequisites, I had a degree in Mathematics with a concentration in Actuarial Science. I passed the first 4 actuarial exams, and in preparation for each of these exams, I used study aids, written by very well-reputed authors and mathematicians. All of them were well-reputed professors in mathematics. All of these manuals had many typos, and all the authors admit to it. So they had email addresses at the end of their books, so the students could send in the typos. They updated these error on their websites, and then they would acknowledge for the students efforts by listing their names at the end of newer editions. My professor was the author of one of the study manual sold in the market. When he published the first edition, it had quite many typos. He even used his manual as the textbook for one of the courses. We found many typos, and he happily updated the errors in the subsequent editions.
 
@BerkReviewTeach First, thank you for taking the time to reply to my request for a comment from Berkeley Review. I do appreciate insight whenever it can be given.

As it is quite late I am going "briefly" respond to a few of your statements, and I will be polite. =)

The PhD physicist who originally wrote this question, the two PhD physicists with extensive teaching experience who edited this question, and many BR physics teachers who have worked with this question feel it is right, and I tend to feel pretty confident believing them.
I wanted to start here as it suggests a slight bias. Not a bias towards TBR but the bias towards the infallibility of a title. I am certain that TBR and the majority of test prep companies for all examinations (not just MCAT) hire some of the most intelligent and decorated educators that can be found. Blind trust and confidence in any human who is capable of error should be avoided. I am not at all trying to discredit the writers of this question but when you make a comment like this it almost ignores the innumerable errors that have been discovered and corrected by almost every testing agency that has existed. Mistakes happen, there is no need to defend a possible mistake by stating that the writer has strong credentials. That is simply expected.


I am going to express a few faults here and expand later. Your statement that dropping a weight from a stationary balloon is the same as dropping weight from a balloon that has a velocity up. I am inclined to disagree with your conservation of momentum analysis. For one a stationary weight that is dropped from a stationary balloon (or any object), will like you said, have acceleration and velocity in the downward direction. So momentum will be down shortly after release. You stated this and I agree.
What occurs if a balloon is traveling up at a constant velocity that is "fast"? When you release the weight the acceleration shortly after release is down yes... However momentum (mass*velocity [this has direction]) is not downward. Momentum of the weight shortly after release is going to be in the up direction... How can this follow your conservation of momentum answer approach if both object after release are traveling in the same direction...? I am really confused about that one in relation to your argument specifically.


Lastly you said I made an argument about semantics. This is true but your interpretation of semantics is obviously different than mine. You compared this problem to a bullet from a gun but that is a flawed example because you stated that instantly there would be no change in velocity there. That is not the same presentation because a bullet and gun have forces applied in equal and opposite direction at the moment the gun is fired. An impulse is occurring and release is when the objects are no longer in physical contact. The gun example is complicated because the gun and bullet are not pushing off each other the way an astronaut can push off a space ship but air pressure in the barrel is fulfilling that role... By comparison dropping an object is comparable to cutting a rope and releasing tension. There is no impulse to provide the acceleration so as soon as the object is release to begin freefall, it's velocity is zero because the time of impulse is zero (there was no impulse).

There are other examples but this is already getting long. If you would be so kind as to test out some hypothetical calculations using plug and chug numbers it might clear up this problem. I will be doing the same thing tomorrow because there are very few variables and I will be testing the same thing tomorrow.

For variables I believe there are:
Initial velocity up =
Initial mass system = (405 kg) calculated from two masses below.
Final mass balloon = (360 kg) source:google search "Hot air balloon weight" answer provided by google and referenced http://www.skydrifters.com/about/
Final mass package = (45 kg ) source: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sandbag-Training-Large-Maximum-weight/dp/B00EAP2JVE
Time = 0.001 seconds, I am not expecting you to use zero out of semantics, this is a realistically testable number in scientific terms that is well beyond instantaneous and will validate an answer.
Gravity Acceleration: 9.8 m/s^2
Initial buoyant force can be calculated and you can assume the package has no buoyancy and the balloon does not change volume.


Obviously initial velocity is the variable you should play with, but the problem does say that it is moving up at a constant positive velocity.

Anyway, that's all for tonight, again really sorry if I am doing a huge disservice to anyone studying for the MCAT. I read the original post from @justadream and seeing the question and answer description I felt compelled to voice a counter-argument based on the above parameters.
I was also not trying to argue semantics and simply saying that with very testable numbers the answer often appears wrong, but I may find a more enlightened conclusion tomorrow.

@BerkReviewTeach Thank you again for taking the time to respond to my request.
 
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Based on your issue with a recoil scenario here, I assume you take issue with all recoil-based questions using this same reasoning of timing. Using your reasoning of questioning the term instant would be like saying that when you fire a bullet from a gun, at the instant it is fired, there is no recoil and the bullet is stationary because it's less than a nanosecond after the process and therefore not enough time has transpired to allow the bullet to move or the gun to recoil.
Ok, basic kinematics... MCAT expects us to know that if you use a catapult to launch a rock through the air it will have some positive initial velocity. T=0; V=Positive... So your comparison of a gun and nanoseconds of time does not make sense. That is like asking what is happening while the catapult is undergoing the launch motion. It doesn't matter because that is all before T=0. Same with a gun, Time doesn't start until the bullet would leave the barrel and begin it's Newtonian trajectory.
MCAT also expect you to know that when you drop an object from rest the Initial Velocity is ZERO. I have no idea how you can try and make an argument otherwise. The "instant" (gerrr) that the objects is dropped Time=0 and Velocity=0.
For the sake of reputation don't try and argue anything contrary to the very basic physics kinematics MCAT problems. This is common knowledge for most people reading this forum.

Semantics maybe but you shouldn't try and say that the instant you drop a ball it has a velocity. If that were true all the equations we learn and memorize for the exam would be wrong because they assume T=0.
In my previous post I actually said "you can't argue this" assuming nobody would, because it is so fundamental to basic physics motion problems.


The instant the package is dropped, the the mass of the remaining system is reduced and its upward velocity will immediately begin to increase.
Again, this is where you are missing basic MCAT reasoning. For example when you throw a ball up into the air, at it's highest point what is the velocity? Zero.
Yes it will immediately begin to increase but if you only look at the latter half of that kinematics problem you will see that at initial max height (drop scenario), the velocity is zero despite being subjected to gravitational acceleration.
For some reason it seems like you are rounding and unable to believe things happen concurrently. You release the ball, gravity begins accelerating the ball, and the ball has zero velocity simultaneously. There is no NEED for any time to pass. It all happens in an "instant"... Maybe you can argue that "in the real world" gravitational waves propagate at the speed of light so there is an infinitesimal time delay but COME ON!~ This is only the MCAT.


If you are saying the mass is lost, it is because it has started to fall, which means it has had enough time to change its velocity. If the package had enough time to change its velocity, then so has the balloon, by whatever amount that may be.
I don't think you understand the concept of "initial" or the concept of when Time = Zero. Perhaps you are thinking that no dropping mechanism is capable of releasing an object quick enough to instantly release it before it starts accelerating. MCAT writers have amazing technology that is up to the challenge and you should assume that the instant after release, no time has passed and velocity is zero. :laugh:
To respond to this I'm just going to quote @Chrisz because it was probably the most concise and "MCAT accurate" post in the thread.
the answer is wrong. Momentum decreases at the instant the package is dropped. At the instant you release the package, mass is discounted from the balloon immediately but gaining of velocity is not. at the time the package is dropped, v=vi becomes v=vi+at, but velocity is evaluated at t=0 which is v=vi. momentum of the balloon decreases simply due to the decrease in mass.

I really hope anyone reading this understands that when you drop something the initial velocity is zero. It is fundamental to scoring high marks on the MCAT.

Lastly at T=0; Vi=Vo; so we only have to interpret what is considered "the system".
If you interpret the balloon at it's own system as was suggested earlier then momentum is unchanged because mass and velocity do not change.
If you interpret the package/balloon system together and that mass is lost (as stated in the answer key), then Velocity is unchanged and mass is decreased. (p=M*V) so P decreases.

What the book is trying to do is say that: (1), the package/balloon system was together and as you release the package the balloon loses mass... And (2) you should use the same mass when calculating the momentum before and after release?? No.
Those two things inherently disagree with one another. The only way for the balloon to accelerate up is to decrease it's mass but the argument is that initial momentum is ([Mpackage+Mballoon]*Velocity), and final momentum is still ([Mpackage+Mballon]*Velocity) but this second calculation ignores the decrease in mass that was the cause of the initial acceleration.

Lastly, my previous post addressed the issue that @BerkReviewTeach was trying give by saying that if you lose mass, some near-infinitely small amount of time must have passed.. OK Sure, even with that belief a near-infinitely small velocity change has occurred, while a very measurable change in mass results in the net change in momentum of the balloon after release to have decreased.

Simple proof with ridiculous numbers. Say the balloon was "super"-helium and floating up at a constant 98 meters per second. You then drop HALF your weight. How long would it take before the acceleration due to buoyancy allows the momentum of the balloon after dropping to equal the momentum before dropping. Considering the buoyant force would accelerate the balloon at 9.8m/s^2: ANSWER: 10 SECONDS, how is that instantly? Sure eventually the acceleration would allow the balloons velocity to become the more important factor but for the first 20 seconds the loss in mass is more important. This scales down to realistic numbers but the bottom line is, No matter how slow the balloon was initially traveling, the loss in mass is always going to be the first thing to hit momentum.

Regardless of if you believe no time has passed, or some almost infinitely small time has passed, either way, around the "instant" of release, Momentum initially decreases by dropping weight.
@BerkReviewTeach No disrespect intended. I hope the forum remains a place where interpretation can be challenged and discussed for overall improved understanding. I will try not to take offence to your allegations of misinformation. You should do the same.
 
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Wow, its a sad day when you can't sleep because all you can think about is how to explain a question without audio or visual to a forum. Gotta get this down so I can sleep. 😴

Oh boy, where to begin. Might not be pleasant.

This is a horrendously incorrect statement. You are looking at this problem like it is a perfect elastic conservation of momentum simplification and that is not what is asked by the question.
If you drop the package it will fall accelerating at 9.8m/s^2 regardless of weight. The balloon system will begin rising at half that speed of 4.9m/s^2 because it was previously in equilibrum and now half of it's mass is removed but it's volume remains constant so the buoyant force will accelerate the balloon at half the acceleration of gravity.
If you need a more obviously slap to wake you up ,,, :smack: /facepalm



Ok, basic kinematics... MCAT expects us to know that if you use a catapult to launch a rock through the air it will have some positive initial velocity. T=0; V=Positive... So your comparison of a gun and nanoseconds of time does not make sense. That is like asking what is happening while the catapult is undergoing the launch motion. It doesn't matter because that is all before T=0. Same with a gun, Time doesn't start until the bullet would leave the barrel and begin it's Newtonian trajectory.
MCAT also expect you to know that when you drop an object from rest THE INITIAL VELOCITY IS ZERO. I have no idea how you can try and make an argument otherwise. The "instant" (gerrr) that the objects is dropped Time=0 and Velocity=0.
For the sake of reputation don't try and argue anything contrary to the very basic physics kinematics MCAT problems. This is common knowledge for most people reading this forum.

Semantics maybe but you shouldn't try and say that the instant you drop a ball it has a velocity. If that were true all the equations we learn and memorize for the exam would be wrong because they assume T=0.
In my previous post I actually said "you can't argue this" assuming nobody would, because it is so fundamental to basic physics motion problems.



Again, this is where you are missing basic MCAT reasoning. For example when you throw a ball up into the air, at it's highest point what is the velocity? Zero.
Yes it will immediately begin to increase but if you only look at the latter half of that kinematics problem you will see that at initial max height (drop scenario), the velocity is zero despite being subjected to gravitational acceleration.
For some reason it seems like you are rounding and unable to believe things happen concurrently. You release the ball, gravity begins accelerating the ball, and the ball has zero velocity simultaneously. There is no NEED for any time to pass. It all happens in an "instant"... Maybe you can argue that "in the real world" gravitational waves propagate at the speed of light so there is an infinitesimal time delay but COME ON!~ This is only the MCAT.



I don't think you understand the concept of "initial" or the concept of when Time = Zero. Perhaps you are thinking that no dropping mechanism is capable of releasing an object quick enough to instantly release it before it starts accelerating. MCAT writers have amazing technology that is up to the challenge and you should assume that the instant after release, no time has passed and velocity is zero. :laugh:
To respond to this I'm just going to quote @Chrisz because it was probably the most concise and "MCAT accurate" post in the thread.


I really hope anyone reading this understands that when you drop something the initial velocity is zero. It is fundamental to scoring high marks on the MCAT.

Lastly at T=0; Vi=Vo; so we only have to interpret what is considered "the system".
If you interpret the balloon at it's own system as was suggested earlier then momentum is unchanged because mass and velocity do not change.
If you interpret the package/balloon system together and that mass is lost (as stated in the answer key), then Velocity is unchanged and mass is decreased. (p=M*V) so P decreases.

What the book is trying to do is say that: (1), the package/balloon system was together and as you release the package the balloon loses mass... And (2) you should use the same mass when calculating the momentum before and after release?? No.
Those two things inherently disagree with one another. The only way for the balloon to accelerate up is to decrease it's mass but the argument is that initial momentum is ([Mpackage+Mballoon]*Velocity), and final momentum is still ([Mpackage+Mballon]*Velocity) but this second calculation ignores the decrease in mass that was the cause of the initial acceleration.

Lastly, my previous post addressed the issue that @BerkReviewTeach was trying give by saying that if you lose mass, some near-infinitely small amount of time must have passed.. OK Sure, even with that belief a near-infinitely small velocity change has occurred, while a very measurable change in mass results in the net change in momentum of the balloon after release to have decreased.

Simple proof with ridiculous numbers. Say the balloon was "super"-helium and floating up at a constant 98 meters per second. You then drop HALF your weight. How long would it take before the acceleration due to buoyancy allows the momentum of the balloon after dropping to equal the momentum before dropping. ANSWER: 20 SECONDS, how is that instantly? Sure eventually the acceleration would allow the balloons velocity to become the more important factor but for the first 20 seconds the loss in mass is more important. This scales down to realistic numbers but the bottom line is NO MATTER HOW SLOW THE BALLOON WAS INITIALLY TRAVELING, THE LOSS IN MASS IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE FIRST THING TO HIT MOMENTUM. done.

Regardless of if you believe no time has passed, or some almost infinitely small time has passed, either way, around the "instant" of release, Momentum initially decreases by dropping weight.
@BerkReviewTeach No disrespect intended. I hope the forum remains a place where interpretation can be challenged and discussed for overall improved understanding. I will try not to take offence to your allegations of misinformation. You should do the same.
Bro, relax, just let it go. Don't be too stubborn on a single question.
 
Lol, no kidding. That was a slight rant. Could spend all day trying to explain how it works but really the odds that someone would get a similar question during their MCAT is slim.
Removed some capslock for easier reading. =/
 
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DrKno, it's become a point diminishing returns. There is no way you are going to let this go and recognize where you went wrong. It's not worth the energy of responding in detail, and there are a significant number of places where you have erred in your last post. You have violated Newtion's law by saying that an object at rest is not comparable to an object moving with constant velocity. You have tossed a number out there that is mathematically way off without showing work. You have used conservation of momentum and elastic collision together where they are not connected.

I am bowing out with the hope that people reading through this will not be misguided. I generally like what you post, but you are not correct here.
 
@BerkReviewTeach Thank You! No need to continue struggling because your last post completely let me understand where the logic of TBR lies. (The question is not wrong, just not predictive of real world behavior). The mass of the package should have been considered part of the initial momentum.

You have violated Newtion's law by saying that an object at rest is not comparable to an object moving with constant velocity.
For this entire problem you are saying that the change in momentum of the package or sandbag is going to be equal to the change in momentum for the balloon for any time you measure their momentums. 100% agree with you. At least I believe that is what you were implying with your posts. Therefore when you drop a sandbag from a stationary or moving balloon the balloon will instantly gain momentum in the upward direction which is exactly opposite to the change in momentum of the sandbag accelerating down from gravity.

Based on that, it is easy to see why the answer interpreted the question as "increased". The answer key talks about a change in mass of the balloon but it wasn't implying the the mass of the balloon was less, merely that the balloon was experiencing less gravitational forces, so it begins accelerating up. If the mass of the balloon doesn't change (despite throwing the sandbag overboard), then yes, the instant you release the weight the momentum of the balloon would increase.


The answer and key is basically not looking at the problem realistically. Mathematically yes, the answer is sound, but if you had a balloon with a certain Momentum "P", and you had another balloon with the exact same mass, velocity, and momentum "P", but contained a extra 100 kilo sandbag, they could mathematically have the same momentum if you completely ignore the mass of the sandbag when determining momentum. The issue is that if both balloons "bumped into something". They one containing the sandbag would have less change in velocity after impact because even if you don't use the mass of the sandbag in the momentum calculation, it still effects the behavior of the system. I am far less annoyed by this problem now. It is a lot easier to accept that it is just an unrealistic visualization.

You could even ask a comparison question, "Do two identical cars have the same momentum if one has just a driver while the other is full of people?" Mathematically yes (if you ignore all the peoples mass), but if they were to crash, the result would be different because the people really should have been considered part of the system for the scenario. The mass of the package should have been considered part of the original momentum because it modifies how the balloon would behave if it struck another object.

Bottom line, Thanks. You cleared up all my concerns about the validity of this problem, and it may not be technically wrong, I still believe it is not the greatest representation of what would be observed.
 
Dr Know, I have to commend you on stepping up and admitting you were wrong. It's really hard to do, but we've all been there before.

BerkTeacher, you post great explanations and stay cool as a cucumber when attacked. I learn so much from your posts.

The way I did this problem was using kinematics and forces. I like to plug numbers in so I can see everything better. I assume a 100-kg balloon with a 20-kg package dangling by a rope moving upwards at a constant velocity of 10 m/s. I assume air density to be 0.00125 g/L, the balloon to be 9600 L, and g to be 10 m/s^2. The weight of the entire system is 1200 N (from 120 kg x 10) and the buoyant force is 1200 N (from 0.00125 x 96000 x 10).

When the package detaches, it has an upward speed of 10 m/s. Using vf = at + vi, I found that the box had a v = 0 at t=1, v = -10 at t=2, v = -20 at t=3, and so on. For the balloon (without the mass attached), I used mg = 1000 N and Fbuoy = 1200 N, so ma = 1200 - 1000, where m = 100 for the balloon alone (as the package has been dropped). (100)a = 1200 - 1000 = 200, so a = +2. At t=1 the balloon will have a velocity of +12 m/s, at t=2 the balloon will have a velocity of +14 m/s, at t=3 the balloon will have a velocity of +16 m/s, an so on. That leads to the following:

Before release, p = (100 + 20) x 10 = 1200
At t=1 ptotal = (20 x 0) + (100 x 12) = 0 + 1200 = 1200
At t=2 ptotal = (20 x -10) + (100 x 14) = -200 + 1400 =1200
At t=3 ptotal = (20 x -20) + (100 x 16) = -400 + 1600 =1200

Using kinematics shows that momentum is conserved. Conceptually we know that in the absence of a net external force the momentum stays constant after a collision, so if the package is experiencing a increase in its downward momentum, then the balloon (without the package) must be experiencing an increase in tis upward momentum.

Where it's easy to go astray is to think that the balloon had lost mass. The balloon-package system lost mass (namely the package), but the balloon itself was the same mass the entire time, so its increase in velocity was also an increase in momentum.
 
Where it's easy to go astray is to think that the balloon had lost mass. The balloon-package system lost mass (namely the package), but the balloon itself was the same mass the entire time, so its increase in velocity was also an increase in momentum.

Heh, you caught me. I did believe that the initial momentum of a vehicle is equal to the mass of the vehicle and it's contents, times the velocity of the vehicle and contents. Clearly If you have a bag full of bricks and throw it at something, the resulting impact produces a force that ignores the contents of the bag.... as least semantically, according to this problem.

All I admitted was that I understood why TBR answered the way they did. I did not say that I believe it is the "most correct" answer. I still firmly believe that the initial momentum of a container or vehicle should include the mass of anything that the container, contains. If you remove the contents of something in motion, it's momentum should go down because that is what describes realistic behavior. If the balloon struck something, the resulting impact is going to be dependent on the mass of anything inside. Just my opinion, but I understand that there are always many ways to interpret a passage. I simply believe that the mass of the package should have been included in the initial momentum, which would change the answer to (B). If that makes me wrong, then I am ok with that. 🙂
 
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