Laser bronchoscopy

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Mr Nice Guy surgeon wants to do a non-emergent laser bronch, but no shielded ETT's can be found anywhere. And he really hates doing rigid bronch's. "hey the laser is way beyond the tip of the ett, and this is how we always do it."

How many guys in PP go ahead w/ the case using a conventional tube?

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FiO2-<30%
saline with methylene blue in the ETT cuff
agreement that frequent pauses needed for desaturations
scans verifying lesion distal to usual position of the tip of ETT
availability of a jet ventilator with an oxygen blender that controls FiO2 in case we need to switch to rigid bronch approach
Surgeon that has adequate skills to do what they say they will do safely

Yes, I would proceed.
 
FiO2-<30%
saline with methylene blue in the ETT cuff
agreement that frequent pauses needed for desaturations
scans verifying lesion distal to usual position of the tip of ETT
availability of a jet ventilator with an oxygen blender that controls FiO2 in case we need to switch to rigid bronch approach
Surgeon that has adequate skills to do what they say they will do safely

Yes, I would proceed.

CXR showed complete whiteout of left lung. Op note from flex bronch biopsy reports that lesion is 4cm from carina in left mainstem, completely occluding the bronchial lumen.
how far away from the ETT does the lesion have to be before you decide that a conventional tube is okay?
 
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I don't think I could tell you for certain that we have any laser shielded ETT's at my place. I guess my gut says distal trachea near the carina or below. Above that, probably rigid bronch with a side port hook up for jet ventilation. We have a pulm guy who is more comfortable with a rigid bronch for these cases and another who likes the flexible FOB.
 
We do them through LMA all the time.

Could you describe the technique? Regular LMA or intubating? Disposable or the old kind? What kind of connector do you use to allow access for the scope? A side port connector so you can ventilate at the same time or do you do the alternating technique of laser during apnea followed by ventilation? Do you do this for all patients or use patient selection? What if the patient is a difficult intubation? Would that change your plan?
Obviously, I have not done it this way, but it seems reasonable. Thanks in advance.
 
Could you describe the technique? Regular LMA or intubating? Disposable or the old kind? What kind of connector do you use to allow access for the scope? A side port connector so you can ventilate at the same time or do you do the alternating technique of laser during apnea followed by ventilation? Do you do this for all patients or use patient selection? What if the patient is a difficult intubation? Would that change your plan?
Obviously, I have not done it this way, but it seems reasonable. Thanks in advance.

I use the regular, disposable LMA. Then I cut those useless plastic pieces out of the epiglotic area. I use the side port connector to continuously ventilate. Sometimes when they touch the carina the patient will cough and the pulm guy asks for more sedation at which point I either pretend or give a fee cc of propofol.

If the patient looks like a difficult airway I discuss with the pulm guy but almost always that's not a problem because he can always rigid bronch if he needs to.
 
FiO2-<30%
saline with methylene blue in the ETT cuff
agreement that frequent pauses needed for desaturations
scans verifying lesion distal to usual position of the tip of ETT
availability of a jet ventilator with an oxygen blender that controls FiO2 in case we need to switch to rigid bronch approach
Surgeon that has adequate skills to do what they say they will ido safely

Yes, I would proceed.

The trust in skills and judgement is big. Se of those little masses can have vascular involvement and a little cut can get ugly quick. Some surgeons/pulmonologists may be more prepared than others.
 
I think if things go as planned, which happens most of the time, that is fine.

However, for discussion purposes, assuming one proceed with a regular ETT as above in this case, and even though all that low FiO2, pause for desat, lesion far from ETT criteria were all met, if god forbids an airway fire occurs with ETT catching fire, I am not sure one can defend him/herself intelligently: 1. case was elective. 2. a flammable ETT was used.
 
We have Cook Gas intubating LMAs that we use for EBUS's all the time. Wide shaft designed to accommodate an ETT.

Someone was implying that you can't use paralytic w/ LMA...why not? Why not just prop/remi +/- roc, vec, sux with or without rebolus or drip, or same recipe w/ alfenta instead of remi, etc etc
 
I think if things go as planned, which happens most of the time, that is fine.

However, for discussion purposes, assuming one proceed with a regular ETT as above in this case, and even though all that low FiO2, pause for desat, lesion far from ETT criteria were all met, if god forbids an airway fire occurs with ETT catching fire, I am not sure one can defend him/herself intelligently: 1. case was elective. 2. a flammable ETT was used.

This is also my line of thought
 
I think if things go as planned, which happens most of the time, that is fine.

However, for discussion purposes, assuming one proceed with a regular ETT as above in this case, and even though all that low FiO2, pause for desat, lesion far from ETT criteria were all met, if god forbids an airway fire occurs with ETT catching fire, I am not sure one can defend him/herself intelligently: 1. case was elective. 2. a flammable ETT was used.

Most "laser tubes" have a coating/wrapping that is supposed to reflect or diffuse the laser. That does not mean the tube itself is not flammable. The incidence of tube fire is greatly decreased, but it's not eliminated.
 
How many guys in PP go ahead w/ the case using a conventional tube?

Since you asked, my thoughts align with some others regarding the elective nature of the case and the lack of ideal equipment.

Should things go south, the plaintiff's attorney will likely ask along the lines of:

1) Was this an elective case? Does elective mean it can wait?

2) Are there airway devices that would lessen the risk for this patient of having an airway fire? By the way, what is the usual type of tube one would use in these sorts of cases? Have you had occasion to use such a tube? Why would you not use such a tube then? Would you say a laser tube is the standard for these sorts of cases?

3) Since this case could wait, were there inquiries made into obtaining these types of "better" "safer" airway devices either through ordering from your hospital supplier or obtaining from another local hospital (hospitals often swap/provide equipment/drugs to each other when one runs short)? Is it often your practice to proceed with surgery lacking the proper equipment? If not, then why did you do so in this case? If the hospital lacks the required equipment for the case, do you believe these cases should be performed? Is it safe to do these cases? (As you can see, some of these questions can't be answered, they are just there to convince a jury you're a terrible physician. You can't say it's safe, because clearly it wasn't in this patient's case; If you answer no, you've just said it's not safe yet you proceeded anyways You'll look like an idiot.)

4) So, what percentage risk, are we talking about, Dr., for airway fire when you don't use one of these tubes? You don't know?

Again, the list goes on, and it's all about jury perception. If they think you're a careless, sub-standard practicing physician who put this already sick patient at greater risk, then you're done. A typical jury will have little to no idea about anything you're doing. They'll simply hear you say you didn't choose what was the safest or best option, and the plaintiff's attorney will get expert witnesses who literally wrote the book to say the same thing.

On a final note, however, I'll say this thread was very educational, as I'd never even have considered an LMA. It sounds reasonable to me, because I'm an educated anesthesiologist, but again to a layperson, it'll all typically boil down to one thing.
 
Thank you, I agree with the above comment. Sometimes we are trained so much/well(?) that we do certain things reflexively. Anesthesia is really a specialty that encompasses/allows for lots of variations in practice---while all achieves similar goals. It's refreshing and important to try to jump outa the box (yes cliche) and do things differently, with appropriate clinical reasonings, in certain specific cases/settings.
 
I think i would be comfortable doing this case as well, but wouldnt feel comfortable doing it as a 4:1 supervision case. it sounds like it would be postponed indefinitely as well, since "no shielded ETT's can be found anywhere", so I think you could justify all reasonable precautions were in place. Fill the cuff with saline/MB.

also im not sure id classify it as elective.
 
i think i would be comfortable doing this case as well, but wouldnt feel comfortable doing it as a 4:1 supervision case. It sounds like it would be postponed indefinitely as well, since "no shielded ett's can be found anywhere", so i think you could justify all reasonable precautions were in place. Fill the cuff with saline/mb.

Also im not sure id classify it as elective.

+1
 
So guys who would/do use shielded tubes, which one do you use? I've ordered some, but the inner diameter is only 6mm (OD 8.5mm). Not exactly a lot of room for both an argon or co2 laser and still being able to ventilate.
Anybody got any suggestions on a model? I'm waiting to hear back from the reps...
 
So guys who would/do use shielded tubes, which one do you use? I've ordered some, but the inner diameter is only 6mm (OD 8.5mm). Not exactly a lot of room for both an argon or co2 laser and still being able to ventilate.
Anybody got any suggestions on a model? I'm waiting to hear back from the reps...

Back in the day, we had a special tape to wrap tubes with. We also had a few metal tubes. They are fuzzy memories from residency, so don't ask me details about them. Like I said before, I don't think we have any shielded tubes currently.
The most common way we do these cases is with a rigid bronch with a side port for a circuit hooked up to a jet ventilator. Our pulm guy that prefers the flexible FOB is rarely seen n the OR.
 
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