Law and order

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I wonder what Lindsey's take is on the other literal tens of thousands of non-violent first time offenders currently languishing in prison...






As if anyone needed any more proof that the GOP is an irredeemably broken party filled with irredeemably broken people. If the Trump loses in November, I wouldn't be surprised if the litany of horribly guilty people he pardons starts with Bernie Madoff and ends with the BTK killer.
 
vector2 said:


I wonder what Lindsey's take is on the other literal tens of thousands of non-violent first time offenders currently languishing in prison...






As if anyone needed any more proof that the GOP is an irredeemably broken party filled with irredeemably broken people. If the Trump loses in November, I wouldn't be surprised if the litany of horribly guilty people he pardons starts with Bernie Madoff and ends with the BTK killer.
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Bill Kristol is a Republican. Given the ****hole that Washington D.C. is, I have some doubt that a Democratic version of Donald Trump would be treated any differently by the Democratic establishment than the Republicans have treated the current occupant of the Whitehouse.

They both suck.
 
dr doze said:
I have some doubt that a Democratic version of Donald Trump would be treated any differently by the Democratic establishment than the Republicans have treated the current occupant of the Whitehouse.
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The things people come up with on here lol. It can be quite impressive.
 
www.chicagotribune.com

Clinton pardon of Rich a saga of power, money

President Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich is a saga of secrecy, tenacity, sleight of hand and pressure from Rich's ex-wife and one of her friends.
www.chicagotribune.com www.chicagotribune.com
www.brookings.edu

Bill Clinton's Last Outrage; The President's Defenders Feel Betrayed by His Pardon of Marc Rich | Brookings

Opinion by E.J. Dionne, Jr., Senior Fellow, Governmental Studies, The Brookings Institution, in Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, February 6, 2001
www.brookings.edu www.brookings.edu

Bill Clinton pardon controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
You think Trump's pardon of Stone is bad?
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
www.chicagotribune.com

Clinton pardon of Rich a saga of power, money

President Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich is a saga of secrecy, tenacity, sleight of hand and pressure from Rich's ex-wife and one of her friends.
www.chicagotribune.com www.chicagotribune.com
www.brookings.edu

Bill Clinton's Last Outrage; The President's Defenders Feel Betrayed by His Pardon of Marc Rich | Brookings

Opinion by E.J. Dionne, Jr., Senior Fellow, Governmental Studies, The Brookings Institution, in Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, February 6, 2001
www.brookings.edu www.brookings.edu

Bill Clinton pardon controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
You think Trump's pardon of Stone is bad?
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Wow, that is pretty bad.

So...what's your point? I hope it's that we should just give trump a pass for horrible, corrupt, or illegal behavior because clinton got away with it, because that would make you sound like you skipped the part in the kindergarten where they taught everyone that two wrongs don't make a right.
 
GaseousClay said:
I could care less about stone but this arrest was political BS from the beginning. Having CNN there to arrest a 70yo man with a big squad of people with rifles. Give me a break.
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If you could care less, please do so. I think you meant 'I could NOT care less, or I couldn't care less'. sorry, pet peeve and I'm just spreading info.
 
dr doze said:
Really? Saying that the Republican Politicians are no more or less honorable no better or worse behaved as a group than Democratic politicians. That is somehow an outrageous statement?
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You may be right. I used to believe all politicians are the same. And maybe they are. Somehow things just feel different, and much dirtier, with Trump and his cronies in charge.
 
Southpaw said:
If you could care less, please do so. I think you meant 'I could NOT care less, or I couldn't care less'. sorry, pet peeve and I'm just spreading info.
Click to expand...

Oh good I’ll stick to could care less then
 
vector2 said:
Wow, that is pretty bad.

So...what's your point? I hope it's that we should just give trump a pass for horrible, corrupt, or illegal behavior because clinton got away with it, because that would make you sound like you skipped the part in the kindergarten where they taught everyone that two wrongs don't make a right.
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Two wrongs don't make a right but the Clinton pardon of Marc Rich has value as precedent. I didn't learn that in kindergarten. I learned it in law school. If Marc Rich, along with a few dozen other scoundrels pardoned by Slick Willie, can beat the rap courtesy of a presidential pardon, why can't Stone?

Clinton isn't the only one to abuse the pardon power. Obama used the pardon power to commute the sentences of criminals whose crimes were far worse than Roger Stone's offenses. Obama pardoned drug traffickers, armed robbers, tax cheats etc.

List of people granted executive clemency by Barack Obama - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

The president's power to pardon is not absolute, but it comes close. Now that the Donald has used it, the Democrats have gone to their usual ploy of drawing a distinction without a real difference. Trump won in 2016. Get over it.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
Two wrongs don't make a right but the Clinton pardon of Marc Rich has value as precedent. I didn't learn that in kindergarten. I learned it in law school. If Marc Rich, along with a few dozen other scoundrels pardoned by Slick Willie, can beat the rap courtesy of a presidential pardon, why can't Stone?

Clinton isn't the only one to abuse the pardon power. Obama used the pardon power to commute the sentences of criminals whose crimes were far worse than Roger Stone's offenses. Obama pardoned drug traffickers, armed robbers, tax cheats etc.

List of people granted executive clemency by Barack Obama - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

The president's power to pardon is not absolute, but it comes close. Now that the Donald has used it, the Democrats have gone to their usual ploy of drawing a distinction without a real difference. Trump won in 2016. Get over it.
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I just love it that Bunker Don who promised to drain the Swamp partake in the usual Swamp activities! Hypocritical much?
 
Literally EVERY US President does this. It’s always a story especially at the very end of their term. Some super questionable but that is expressly allowed.

But since every Trump decision is hyper-scrutinized, this has been highlighted just like everything else.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
Two wrongs don't make a right but the Clinton pardon of Marc Rich has value as precedent. I didn't learn that in kindergarten. I learned it in law school. If Marc Rich, along with a few dozen other scoundrels pardoned by Slick Willie, can beat the rap courtesy of a presidential pardon, why can't Stone?

Clinton isn't the only one to abuse the pardon power. Obama used the pardon power to commute the sentences of criminals whose crimes were far worse than Roger Stone's offenses. Obama pardoned drug traffickers, armed robbers, tax cheats etc.

List of people granted executive clemency by Barack Obama - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

The president's power to pardon is not absolute, but it comes close. Now that the Donald has used it, the Democrats have gone to their usual ploy of drawing a distinction without a real difference. Trump won in 2016. Get over it.
Click to expand...

Ok, so for all your world salad your bottom line is if someone does something wrong and it becomes precedent then future presidents should not only continue that behavior but perhaps even escalate it. Got it.
 
AdmiralChz said:
Literally EVERY US President does this. It’s always a story especially at the very end of their term. Some super questionable but that is expressly allowed.

But since every Trump decision is hyper-scrutinized, this has been highlighted just like everything else.
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The pardons are one thing. How many presidents have instructed their corrupt AG to interfere in a federal investigation to get charges dropped against a crony who already pleaded guilty?
 
vector2 said:
Ok, so for all your world salad your bottom line is if someone does something wrong and it becomes precedent then future presidents should not only continue that behavior but perhaps even escalate it. Got it.
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He didn't escalate it. If you review the actions of Slick Willie and Obama, the Stone pardon is nothing. Roger Stone didn't peddle meth. He didn't stick a gun in someone's face. He lied, an everyday occurrence in Washington D.C.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
He didn't escalate it. If you review the actions of Slick Willie and Obama, the Stone pardon is nothing. Roger Stone didn't peddle meth. He didn't stick a gun in someone's face. He lied, an everyday occurrence in Washington D.C.
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In either case, you're still saying these kind of political/crony pardons are wrong- but you think it's OK to continue them just because they've been done in the past. I don't think you need law school level ethics to understand what a morally bankrupt position you have, or to understand the next-level hypocrisy of an administration who explicitly ran on an anti-corruption/drain the swamp platform.


 
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vector2 said:
In either case, you're still saying these kind of political/crony pardons are wrong- but you think it's OK to continue them just because they've been done in the past. I don't think you need law school level ethics to understand what a morally bankrupt position you have, or to understand the next-level hypocrisy of an administration who explicitly ran on an anti-corruption/drain the swamp platform.


Click to expand...

I'm not arguing that Trump's pardon of Stone is ethical or moral. I would simply argue that it's legal and not unprecedented. I would also bet that when Clinton and Obama used their power to pardon a host of scumbags, you didn't raise a stink about it because you favored the policies of Clinton and Obama.

Your preaching is somewhat analogous to the people who: 1) pointed fingers without any corroborating evidence of misbehavior at Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavanaugh; and 2) had already given a pass to Clinton, Ted Kennedy and Chris Dodd.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
I'm not arguing that Trump's pardon of Stone is ethical or moral. I would simply argue that it's legal and not unprecedented. I would also bet that when Clinton and Obama used their power to pardon a host of scumbags, you didn't raise a stink about it because you favored the policies of Clinton and Obama.

Your preaching is somewhat analogous to the people who: 1) pointed fingers without any corroborating evidence of misbehavior at Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavanaugh; and 2) had already given a pass to Clinton, Ted Kennedy and Chris Dodd.
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1. Trump's pardon of Stone is significantly different from any other pardon in history because Trump is involved in the incident for which Stone was pardoned. 2. You're barking up the wrong tree bud with whatever "bet" you're trying to make since I never voted for Clinton or Obama, and you're still continuing with your whataboutism in some sad attempt to keep justifying **** which you know is demonstrably wrong.












3. Your SDN username checks out.
 
vector2 said:
1. Trump's pardon of Stone is significantly different from any other pardon in history because Trump is involved in the incident for which Stone was pardoned. 2. You're barking up the wrong tree bud with whatever "bet" you're trying to make since I never voted for Clinton or Obama, and you're still continuing with your whataboutism in some sad attempt to keep justifying **** which you know is demonstrably wrong.

3. Your SDN username checks out.
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Here we go again with a distinction without a real difference. Every pardon has some unique characteristic. It might be the time, the place, or the victim of the crime. It could be the criminal's motive when the crime was committed or the motive of the president granting the pardon. This is the sort of thing you might have learned in the first month of law school, but I suspect you couldn't have hacked it.

What did you think of Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon? The gravity of Nixon's crimes vastly exceeded Roger Stone's crimes. Ford was aligned politically with Nixon. Ford nominated Nixon at the 1972 Republican convention. Nixon's resignation put Ford in the White House. Although Ford was subsequently and deservedly praised for the pardon even by Ted Kennedy, some people, such as Elizabeth Holtzman still believe Ford was wrong. See that witch grilling Gerald Ford.


Reread my prior posts, please. I never tried to justify the pardon from a moral point of view. I just said it was legal and not unprecedented.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
Here we go again with a distinction without a real difference. Every pardon has some unique characteristic. It might be the time, the place, or the victim of the crime. It could be the criminal's motive when the crime was committed or the motive of the president granting the pardon. This is the sort of thing you might have learned in the first month of law school, but I suspect you couldn't have hacked it.

What did you think of Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon? The gravity of Nixon's crimes vastly exceeded Roger Stone's crimes. Ford was aligned politically with Nixon. Ford nominated Nixon at the 1972 Republican convention. Nixon's resignation put Ford in the White House. Although Ford was subsequently and deservedly praised for the pardon even by Ted Kennedy, some people, such as Elizabeth Holtzman still believe Ford was wrong. See that witch grilling Gerald Ford.


Reread my prior posts, please. I never tried to justify the pardon from a moral point of view. I just said it was legal and not unprecedented.
Click to expand...


Comparing Trump pardoning Stone to Nixon and Ford is laughable, and your dumb analogy would only come close to working if Ford was actually materially part of the Watergate conspiracy like Trump is with Stone.

And let's not pretend you entered into the thread like some legal scholar trying to give a nuanced view about the legality and precedent of pardons. You entered the thread like a political hack throwing bombs aimed at Clinton in the attempt to use whataboutism to deflect and distract and make trump's corrupt antithesis-of-drain-the-swamp behavior seem less awful or egregious by comparison. Whatever Clinton or Obama or GWB or Ford did doesn't make current unethical actions any less unethical, no matter how much you try to spin it.



P.S. Coming to SDN and hurling an insult at a practicing physician regarding how they probably couldn't hack it in law school doesn't really have the rhetorical punch you think it does.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
I never tried to justify the pardon from a moral point of view. I just said it was legal and not unprecedented.
Click to expand...

But the justification from the moral and ethical point of view is what needs to matter to America. That's the whole point. Telling us 'it's legal and not unprecedented' is like telling us 'the sun will rise in the east and set in the west'. Okay, great, thanks. The point here, and I'm not sure why you don't simply acknowledge it and move on, is that Trump ran on a platform of 'The American political system is corrupt and I will make it less so'. He ran against a Clinton so his point actually held merit. One could actually consider it for a few brief moments in time.

But now we face reality. He's no different. He's worse, in so many ways, and this is a perfect example of how he's NO DIFFERENT.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
Here we go again with a distinction without a real difference. Every pardon has some unique characteristic. It might be the time, the place, or the victim of the crime. It could be the criminal's motive when the crime was committed or the motive of the president granting the pardon. This is the sort of thing you might have learned in the first month of law school, but I suspect you couldn't have hacked it.

What did you think of Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon? The gravity of Nixon's crimes vastly exceeded Roger Stone's crimes. Ford was aligned politically with Nixon. Ford nominated Nixon at the 1972 Republican convention. Nixon's resignation put Ford in the White House. Although Ford was subsequently and deservedly praised for the pardon even by Ted Kennedy, some people, such as Elizabeth Holtzman still believe Ford was wrong. See that witch grilling Gerald Ford.


Reread my prior posts, please. I never tried to justify the pardon from a moral point of view. I just said it was legal and not unprecedented.
Click to expand...


Thats some lawyer blah blah bull ****. If you don't see the difference between Trump pardoning his fall guy vs prior presidential pardons, then really... smh

You seem to be a huge fan of Trump and would say anything to justify his actions however ghastly
 
Trump didn’t pardon Stone. He commuted his sentence. That means Stone is still guilty. I don’t know what purpose putting stone in jail really serves. I think a fine and community service would be enough.

When Presidents pardon or commute sentences to real criminals we all should worry. I also think bribery plays a role in some pardons like Clinton did with Rich.

Anyway, the voter will decide in November and I doubt the fate of Roger Stone will matter at all to the voters.

I think Independent voters see this issue as partisan and political not criminal. Those voters are the ones Trump needs to sway this November.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Trump didn’t pardon Stone. He commuted his sentence. That means Stone is still guilty. I don’t know what purpose putting stone in jail really serves. I think a fine and community service would be enough.
Click to expand...

Does this hold true in all cases of making false statements to Congress, obstruction of justice and witness tampering or just in this case?
 

Clinton Pardons More Than 100
By Sonya Ross
Associated Press Writer
Saturday, Jan. 20, 2001; 10:49 a.m. EST
WASHINGTON –– In one of his final acts, President Clinton on Saturday pardoned more than 100 Americans, including former Whitewater business partner Susan McDougal, brother Roger Clinton and former CIA Director John Deutch, officials said.
Deutch's pardon spares the one-time spy chief and top Pentagon official of facing criminal charges in connection with his mishandling of national secrets on a home computer.
Clinton also pardoned a former Cabinet member, ex-Housing Secretary Henry Cisneros, who was convicted in a controversy over payments to an ex-mistress.
The president granted clemency to Patty Hearst, the 1970s kidnap victim who later went to prison in connection with a bank robbery, and former Navaho Nation chief Peter MacDonald.
The list, released less than two hours before Clinton turned over the White House to President-elect Bush, was also notable for the number of people seeking pardons it did not include.
Among them: Webster Hubbell, a former law partner of Hillary Rodham Clinton; Jonathan Pollard, a former Navy analyst imprisoned for spying for Israel; one-time Wall Street financier Michael Milken; and Leonard Peltier, convicted of killing two FBI agents on an Indian reservation in 1975.
McDougal's pardon came just one day after the Whitewater investigation was closed down under a deal in which Clinton gave up his law license and admitted make false testimony under oath in the Monica Lewinsky in return for prosecutor agreeing not to indict him.
"She's absolutely delighted," said her lawyer, Mark Geragos. "She is speechless for once in her life. And I think it is especially poignant that it was one of the last acts of Bill Clinton's administration."
McDougal went to prison rather than testify in the Whitewater investigation.
Convicted at a 1996 trial where Clinton testified in her defense, McDougal remained an unabashed supporter of the president, appearing on national television in her orange prison jumpsuit to insist that Clinton never engaged in illegal loans or other improper conduct as prosecutors in Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr's office sought to prove.
Her former husband, failed Arkansas savings and loan operator James McDougal, also was convicted at the same trial but took a markedly different path. He chose to cooperate with Starr's office and implicated the Clintons in wrongdoing before his sudden death in prison.
Susan McDougal never wavered, embarking on a campaign to portray Starr, a Republican, as politically motivated, on a "personal vendetta" to pursue the Clintons and disinterested in the truth. Starr and his staff repeatedly denied those allegations.
She only served 3½ months of a two-year prison term for her four felony convictions before a federal judge released her because of a back problem.
But her freedom was short-lived. She defied a judge's order to answer Whitewater prosecutor's questions before a federal grand jury and was returned to jail for 18 months for civil contempt.
Frustrated she still wasn't cooperating, Starr's office decided to prosecute McDougal for criminal contempt for obstructing the grand jury probe. The jury deadlocked, and prosecutors decided not to retry her.
Roger Clinton was sentenced to two years in prison after pleading guilty in 1985 to conspiring to distribute cocaine. He cooperated with authorities and testified against other drug defendants.
He has since focused on an entertainment career. The president was best man at his brother's wedding back in the mid-1990s.
Deutch had been considering a deal with the Justice Department in which he would plead guilty to a misdemeanor charge of keeping classified data on his home computers.
He got in trouble when CIA security officials discovered, as he was stepping down in 1996 as CIA chief, that he had written and stored highly classified intelligence reports on home computers linked to the Internet.
Deutch publicly apologized. Pentagon officials later discovered Deutch had similar security lapses during his tenure as the No. 2 defense official.Deutch
Cisneros was Clinton's first housing secretary. He resigned in 1996 amid an investigation into allegations that he lied to the FBI about payments he made to a former mistress, Linda Medlar. In 1999, he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge.
Since leaving office, Cisneros served as head of Univision, the nation's largest Spanish-language television network. Last year, he returned to his native San Antonio to launch an organization to provide housing for low-income families.
At age 19, Hearst was kidnapped in the 1970s by the radical Symbionese Liberation Army. She later served part of a prison sentence for a bank holdup in San Francisco before it was commuted by President Carter. She is married to her former bodyguard, Bernard Shaw.
MacDonald, 72, the former leader of the Navajo Nation, has been in a Fort Worth, Texas, medical prison since his 1992 sentencing for his role in a Window Rock, Ariz., riot that resulted in the deaths of two of his supporters in 1989.
MacDonald was removed from office for taking bribes and kickbacks. The two supporters were killed on July 20, 1989, by tribal police during a march to protest what they considered a coup against their leader. MacDonald, his health deteriorating, has been serving a 14-year sentence for inciting the deadly riot.
© Copyright 2001 The Associated Press
 
Convicted at a 1996 trial where Clinton testified in her defense, McDougal remained an unabashed supporter of the president, appearing on national television in her orange prison jumpsuit to insist that Clinton never engaged in illegal loans or other improper conduct as prosecutors in Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr's office sought to prove.
Her former husband, failed Arkansas savings and loan operator James McDougal, also was convicted at the same trial but took a markedly different path. He chose to cooperate with Starr's office and implicated the Clintons in wrongdoing before his sudden death in prison.
Susan McDougal never wavered, embarking on a campaign to portray Starr, a Republican, as politically motivated, on a "personal vendetta" to pursue the Clintons and disinterested in the truth. Starr and his staff repeatedly denied those allegations.
She only served 3½ months of a two-year prison term for her four felony convictions before a federal judge released her because of a back problem.
But her freedom was short-lived. She defied a judge's order to answer Whitewater prosecutor's questions before a federal grand jury and was returned to jail for 18 months for civil contempt.
Frustrated she still wasn't cooperating, Starr's office decided to prosecute McDougal for criminal contempt for obstructing the grand jury probe. The jury deadlocked, and prosecutors decided not to retry her.
Roger Clinton was sentenced to two years in prison after pleading guilty in 1985 to conspiring to distribute cocaine. He cooperated with authorities and testified against other drug defendants.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
Blade, reasoned arguments and reliance on the facts will get you nowhere with the SJW crowd. When they fail on the issues, their next ploy is ad hominem arguments.
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Is that Mitt Romney’s play? Is that what John McCain said? Or are they BLM racists in ‘right’ world today too?

You and Blade freely say this is politics as usual, without being honest enough to admit it’s exactly what Trump campaigned against.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
Blade, reasoned arguments and reliance on the facts will get you nowhere with the SJW crowd. When they fail on the issues, their next ploy is ad hominem arguments.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of online groups or forums that may better suit your taste. This forum is for anesthesiologists, residents and med studs with an interest. We just like to talk about a lot of other stuff too.
 
GaseousClay said:
Another Clinton Pardon from a 58 yo sentence now the main fundraiser for BLM.

404 - Page Not Found | FOX 5 San Diego & KUSI News

www.kusi.com www.kusi.com
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“Retired” NYPD commissioner...lmao!!

Kerik is a bribe taking convicted felon who was himself pardoned by Trump. Rosenberg is an activist and Kerik is a money grubbing mobster. Funny there’s no mention of his criminal background and pardon in the link.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
nimbus said:
“Retired” NYPD commissioner...lmao!!

Kerik is a bribe taking convicted felon who was himself pardoned by Trump. Rosenberg is an activist and Kerik is a money grubbing mobster. Funny there’s no mention of his criminal background and pardon in the link.
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Notice the only thing anyone can come up with as a response is

Whatabout Clinton? Whatabout Clinton? Whatabout Clinton? Whatabout Clinton? Whatabout Nixon?

Trump is just so insanely criminal and corrupt and surrounded by people so insanely criminal and corrupt that it's impossible to try to justify his actions on their own merits.
 
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