Lawyers to review physician contracts, costs?

Panacea Financial Contract Review
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Dr Alo

Dr Alo

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A friend of mine told me that the biggest investment you can make after residency and your medical education is getting an awesome lawyer to review your job offers and contracts.

He was a cards resident, had 2 contracts to look at. The lawyer analyzed the offers, negotiated for him and sent him an analytical report that was like 20 pages long for each contract.

He ended up getting all his student loans paid off, about 20k in moving expenses, and saving him over 300k in income and over 100k in taxes over teh life of his 3 year contract. All of this was not part of the original deal. Plus he made them change a few words and syntax that changed his tax burden and saved tons of money. Eventually, the firm that was hiring this cards resident asked the lawyer to re-do all of their contracts. So this is huge!

He wouldn't tell me how much the lawyer charged, but does anyone have any experience with this? How much do they charge for reviewing like a 15-20 page contract? And any good lawyers around that are familiar with the market place for physicians and their salaries. I have the name of this firm, but any others?

Thanks!
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doing this is alwas a good idea but don't expect too much in terms of getting a better deal that you went in with. The real purpose of having a lawyer look at your contract is to avoid huge pitfalls that you wouldn't have noticed because they were buried in leagelese. If the contract is different than whatever you bargained for then you should go back to the table and hammer that out.
 
This guy ended up saving tons of money and tons in taxes. Plus another friend of mine used a law firm and said that "the one thing I would advise you... is get a darn good lawyer." These guys don't like lawyers, but they said it was soo worth it.

So does anyone know how much this usually costs?
 
MaloCCOM said:
This guy ended up saving tons of money and tons in taxes. Plus another friend of mine used a law firm and said that "the one thing I would advise you... is get a darn good lawyer." These guys don't like lawyers, but they said it was soo worth it.

So does anyone know how much this usually costs?
Click to expand...

A friend of mine did the same thing as the cards resident. The lawyer negotiated the entire contract and hooked him up with a sweet deal. The total cost= $300!! No joke. This lawyer said he only charges residents a max $300. I don't how common that is though.

Also, a know another guy who is signing with the local hospital here. He took is contract to a local lawyer. He didn't negotiate the contract for him but did review it for any pitfalls. Total cost= $0.

Based on my limited experience, you may be able to find a lawyer for a good price, but I am not sure if these examples are typical.
 
MaloCCOM said:
I have the name of this firm, but any others?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
what's the name of the firm?
 
www.shihab.net call the columbus, ohio office, they do the physician contract negotiation.
 
MaloCCOM said:
A friend of mine told me that the biggest investment you can make after residency and your medical education is getting an awesome lawyer to review your job offers and contracts.

He was a cards resident, had 2 contracts to look at. The lawyer analyzed the offers, negotiated for him and sent him an analytical report that was like 20 pages long for each contract.

He ended up getting all his student loans paid off, about 20k in moving expenses, and saving him over 300k in income and over 100k in taxes over teh life of his 3 year contract. All of this was not part of the original deal. Plus he made them change a few words and syntax that changed his tax burden and saved tons of money. Eventually, the firm that was hiring this cards resident asked the lawyer to re-do all of their contracts. So this is huge!

He wouldn't tell me how much the lawyer charged, but does anyone have any experience with this? How much do they charge for reviewing like a 15-20 page contract? And any good lawyers around that are familiar with the market place for physicians and their salaries. I have the name of this firm, but any others?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I dont buy this for a second. First off, no one gets a 3 year contract coming out training...for one thing most people arent even friggin boarded yet! Most people are also proctored/probationary (esp in highly paid subspecs) for their initial few months anyway specifically to get a feel for how good you really are or arent. Little things make we suspicious of your tall tale, details like referring to him as a "cards resident"...cards is a fellowship.

-I have never seen anything close to 15-20 page employment contract, that is absurd.
-All my offers and those of all the fellows I knew were fairly informal, you get a phone call initially telling you congrats you got the job and asking if you would take it at X salary with X conditions. Often I had nothing for a lawyer to even review, unless I tape recorded the phone conversation. In the few instances where I had the paperwork upfront at the interview, it was so simple I have no idea what type of analysis they would give you.
-A VAST majority of physicians (and I will qualify this is California) are employees hired under specific budget constraints and you have very little IF ANY wiggle room to bargain. Realize that unless you are some super insanely high demand subspec like neurosurgery, they likely have plenty of applicants for every position why the hell would a CEO or med director spend precious time on the phone with your attorney? They would like just shiatcan your application instead.
-Coming out of training, you have crap for experience! I dont care if DeBakey himself wrote you a LoR and George Bush, Sr. is your character reference, you are unknown quantity in the med community and will be such until you prove yourself in practice for at least 3-4 years. (Saudi Arabia wont even touch consult docs until they have 3+ years of posttraining experience)

I suffered under delusions that I could set up an offshore corporation, use it as a tax haven, work with an attorney to make sure it was legit, sell the corporation my student loan debt for pennies on the dollar type thing, but it is all pipe dream folks.

*The biggest thing in job hunting is the "1 in the hand, 2 in the bush" problem. Applying too early can throw some offers in your lap you may not have taken if you had waited until employers were more desperate. It all depends on how much job security you want, the more security, the lower the pay.
 
It will cost you a few thousand to get the contract reviewed by an attorney (there will be several emails back and forth and phone conversations). They can help you negotiate a somewhat better deal and tighten the language in your favor.

You are a fool if you expect the process will yield lots of extra $$$, because it will not in this job market.
 
docspousenyc said:
For what its worth, Im the husband of a third-year anesthesia resident, and a practicing attorney in NYC. I'm an intellectual property/media attorney, spending the majority of my time drafting, negotiating and reviewing contracts/agreements. I've also reviewed a fair number of medicine-related contracts for my wife and her colleagues. I'd be happy to review residency, employment or any other type of legal questions/concerns you may have.
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I hired a lawyer to review my contract. As has been stated by another poster- the purpose of the lawyer is really in the end to prevent you from getting screwed secondary to not being able to interpret 'legalese language'. It put me $1,000 short to pay the lawyer and a couple more thousand was negotiated for my signing bonus- the only benefit my lawyer gained for me that was not in the initial offering and honestly I probably could have gotten the higher bonus without the lawyer's help.

Differences in hiring practices are very likely regional- i.e. podunk, USA will add lots of incentives to get you to come out there. The northeast is not likely going to give you any gravy to get you on board. My hospital was extremely unwilling to change the contract....citing this is the standard contract that everyone gets. It was for a three year position and was roughly twenty pages long.

There are days I wish I went to school to be a lawyer. You can likely make a ton of money from home reading contracts all day long. Just think, you never haver to worry that someone is going to sue you either!
 
daisygirl said:
I hired a lawyer to review my contract. As has been stated by another poster- the purpose of the lawyer is really in the end to prevent you from getting screwed secondary to not being able to interpret 'legalese language'. It put me $1,000 short to pay the lawyer and a couple more thousand was negotiated for my signing bonus- the only benefit my lawyer gained for me that was not in the initial offering and honestly I probably could have gotten the higher bonus without the lawyer's help.

Differences in hiring practices are very likely regional- i.e. podunk, USA will add lots of incentives to get you to come out there. The northeast is not likely going to give you any gravy to get you on board. My hospital was extremely unwilling to change the contract....citing this is the standard contract that everyone gets. It was for a three year position and was roughly twenty pages long.
Click to expand...
Yeah, my contract has about 15 pages, and was for 2 yrs 9 months.
Just out of training, yes.
Actually ppl don't necessarily want you to sign a very short term contract, b/c then if you leave they just have to train or find someone new, and no continuity of care for the patient.
Also, a lot of places that are large hospital systems or Kaiser, etc. will not really modify the contract much, if at all, for you.
This is really probably very much a regional thing and will depend on your specialty and whether it is a private practice or not. I heard anesthesia likes to screw over new grads so be careful if you are looking to join a private practice anesthesiology group...
 
Please do not overlook your ability to move on and practice some place else if you end up hating the people with whom you are practicing. You must get the lawyer to negotiate a deal that allows you to practice in the same state if you decide to quit.

States have widely varying case law and or statutes related to covenants not to compete. Indiana courts will enforce very restrictive covenants but other states will not. Get a local business lawyer with experience in these matters to review the deal.
 
I have a great contract lawyer who came on board with me as a favor to another doctor friend.

My first contract was 4 pages, it cost me about $250 I resigned without problems
My second contract was 6 pages, it cost about $300
I resigned in the middle of a huge slanderous ugly mess:
legal cost of separation $900

My third contract was 10 pages, it cost about $300
I resigned in the middle of another ugly mess: legal cost of separation $0

My fourth contract was such a mess, my lawyer re-wrote it in my favor because the original didn't say anything, total cost $1200. Well worth it because the company who hired me went bankrupt and was signing checks that couldn't be cashed. Was also under investigation for medicare fraud.

After the 4th perm job fell through, now you see why I gave up and went to doing locums. 🙂


ALWAYS have a contract lawyer to go over everything and who can fight for you in case the job goes sour and you need a way out and someone who does the negotiating for you in case it's such a bad situation you cannot be in the middle of it. It's worth the money to save yourself because no on else well.


The real point is to be able to GET OUT CLEAN if you need to. That means:

You don't want to have to pay any tail coverage
You don't want to pay back any sign on bonus
You don't want to pay back any moving costs
You want to be able to work in the same area (if possible) if that is what matters to you.
 
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MaloCCOM said:
A friend of mine told me that the biggest investment you can make after residency and your medical education is getting an awesome lawyer to review your job offers and contracts.

He was a cards resident, had 2 contracts to look at. The lawyer analyzed the offers, negotiated for him and sent him an analytical report that was like 20 pages long for each contract.

He ended up getting all his student loans paid off, about 20k in moving expenses, and saving him over 300k in income and over 100k in taxes over teh life of his 3 year contract. All of this was not part of the original deal. Plus he made them change a few words and syntax that changed his tax burden and saved tons of money. Eventually, the firm that was hiring this cards resident asked the lawyer to re-do all of their contracts. So this is huge!

He wouldn't tell me how much the lawyer charged, but does anyone have any experience with this? How much do they charge for reviewing like a 15-20 page contract? And any good lawyers around that are familiar with the market place for physicians and their salaries. I have the name of this firm, but any others?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I see this thread is pretty dated... But the answer is still "yes!" It's worth every penny to make this decision with confidence. Depending on the size of the firm and its policy- they may require a minimum retainer of 4-6,000. And if you're entertaining multiple offers in different states...be prepared to say see you later to some $$$. Independent and legal consultants tend to have some flexibility here as far as payment arrangements, but beware of those offering comprehensive reviews for 4 or $500, they typically want to sell you insurance of some (legitimate) sort. I just went through this. In the end I worked with a consulting house...
 
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ChiefS said:
I see this thread is pretty dated... But the answer is still "yes!" It's worth every penny to make this decision with confidence. Depending on the size of the firm and its policy- they may require a minimum retainer of 4-6,000. And if you're entertaining multiple offers in different states...be prepared to say see you later to some $$$. Independent and legal consultants tend to have some flexibility here as far as payment arrangements, but beware of those offering comprehensive reviews for 4 or $500, they typically want to sell you insurance of some (legitimate) sort. I just went through this. In the end I worked with a consulting house...
Click to expand...

You should be able to get someone decent for a lot less than $6000. In this market you ought to be able to find someone good who will charge you $200- $250 an hour and it shouldn't take more than a dozen hours of lawyer time. Fwiw the better lawyers don't work through "consulting houses", they work for law firms.
 
I had my contract reviewed by an attorney who charged 250 an hour. One hour to review the contract and one hour to review it with the physician. Well worth the money....ended up not taking that job since the contract apparently was utter garbage. Per the attorney would likely cost 5k-6k in time to rewrite it in a manner that would be somewhat agreeable to the physician. So yes, well worth the money, not just for salary, but for physician protection regarding terms of employment and malpractice protection.
 
LADoc00 said:
I dont buy this for a second. First off, no one gets a 3 year contract coming out training...for one thing most people arent even friggin boarded yet!
Click to expand...

Buddy of mine signed a 3 year contract to a family med group in the area, will make $250k minimum per year, and has a stipulation to be made partner after that, where his salary nearly doubles.

Seen it, in hand. Dude is smart (like anyone in training) but is extremely business savvy (like few in training)
 
Psychobabbling said:
Buddy of mine signed a 3 year contract to a family med group in the area, will make $250k minimum per year, and has a stipulation to be made partner after that, where his salary nearly doubles.

Seen it, in hand. Dude is smart (like anyone in training) but is extremely business savvy (like few in training)
Click to expand...

"A stipulation" is pretty meaningless, legally. The partnership will decide in 3 years if he can be a partner or not. Likely he has a contract for 3 years with some base salary and some incentives and milestones. He can be let go for a litany of reasons before the 3 years are up, and potentially without a reason. A partnership agreement is a separate agreement, and generally requires a hefty "buy in" before you share in the income (which probably won't be a "salary" at that point). You also may share in the expenses/losses at that point. Often the first few years you end up making a lot less than you think because you are still financing your piece of the pie which you bought from the other partners. And after that, if the partnership doesn't do well, you may end up making X% of a losing venture instead of a fixed base salary. At any rate, buying into a partnership is an example where you really do need a lawyer, whether you are savvy or not. Most lawyers hire lawyers (and accountants) to navigate partnership agreements because frankly they aren't simple. The true fools are the people who convince themselves that they are savvy enough not to need one.
 
I had my job contract reviews by a lawyer, and felt good about it. We don't really get any training on what to look for, such as non-compete clauses, etc. The lawyer had a healthcare background (I think nursing) which I found helpful. I can share his website if interested. I got a special rate for being a resident at the time.
 
600 dollars for me for a contract review which included suggested language revisions. This was a special deal for resident physicians. Otherwise 250 per hour. I highly suggest contract review by an attorney. Worth every penny in terms of peace of mind.
 
EDIT: I see the above. Sorry.

I'm shocked at how nice the 3 of you were to me, all in a row, in the same thread. Thanks guys. I'm positively buoyed. :joyful:
 
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