Leaving PharmD for PhD

[WhiskeyandXanax]

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Hey,

Leaving a top tier Pharmacy school due to a lot of personal issues with the school and the simple fact that I don't want to push pills for 8 hours a day until I am 65 y/o. Doesn't really hit home until you do your rotations and realize...holy ****...this is it?!?

Eitherway, I am looking at dropping out of my PharmD program (Don't have great grades...but...its not like I completely failed ~ 2.7 GPA)

What would be my chances for grad school considering I had an undergraduate GPA of 3.5, stellar letters of recommendation, undergraduate teaching experience and research. Will plan on rocking the GRE...but I am hesitant that the admissions committee will look at me as a quitter. I enjoyed research and learning as an undergrad. However, professional school (with their planning your life by the minute...dont think just memorize attitude) just is not what I wanna do with the rest of my terrestrial existance. I have 1 year into this 4 year pharmacy program and stuck out the year just because I didn't want to make a big decision off 1 semester.

Any suggestions as to my chances? Will the Ph.D. committee look negatively at me? I get the whole "quitter" aspect but seriously, I hate memorization and having zero creativity in such a field. I would much rather do research and teach. In fact...my whole deal was to be a professor...just now I realized that its not a "professional" professor who has to run a clinic and place teaching/research on the back-burner.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Ombret]

I never saw grad school admissions up close, but I went through a PhD program and saw lots of examples of other PhD students. Based on this limited data I would say your story sounds pretty good for getting into a graduate program somewhere, especially if you are talking about a field that is not super hot right now, maybe pharmacology (which might well suit your interests, making an inference from your earlier pharmacy endeavors). It sounds like your quitting PharmD is a done deal, so just go with the flow and see what happens. Good luck!

 

[Neuronix]

Eitherway, I am looking at dropping out of my PharmD program (Don't have great grades...but...its not like I completely failed ~ 2.7 GPA)

Finish first. It will make you much more valuable in the long run. Once you've done that you should have no problem becoming a grad school slave... err student. At least if you have the PharmD you might be able to find a job after you finish the PhD.

 

[ChemMed]

Finish first. It will make you much more valuable in the long run. Once you've done that you should have no problem becoming a grad school slave... err student. At least if you have the PharmD you might be able to find a job after you finish the PhD.

I second this. You should read the recent article in Nature that describes the plight of the PhD graduate right now. It may make you think twice about a PhD. You can do research as a PharmD if you want more formal training then maybe get an MS. You just need to look into the options. Also, you don't need two doctoral degrees to do research.

That said if you really want a PhD in a field that fits you then it can be worthwhile to get one. You just need to really understand what you want to do with it when your done.

 

[NYCGuy86]

I second this. You should read the recent article in Nature that describes the plight of the PhD graduate right now. It may make you think twice about a PhD. You can do research as a PharmD if you want more formal training then maybe get an MS. You just need to look into the options. Also, you don't need two doctoral degrees to do research.

That said if you really want a PhD in a field that fits you then it can be worthwhile to get one. You just need to really understand what you want to do with it when your done.

Is there a link to this article? I've been hearing a lot about the "plight of the PhD" recently (one of my friends is finishing his PhD in computational bio and said the same things), while the professor I do research with said that it isn't as bad as people make it out to be (she did a post-doc at weill cornell for 2 years then got her current assistant professor position). Some days I think about just doing a PhD instead of MD/PhD, but other days it seems as if the best thing to do is have the MD as well (or in the OP's case, the PharmD), especially since I'm still interested in clinical medicine.

 

[Ombret]

Whiskey, I'm curious, are you definitely dropping out of PharmD (as in, they have already relabeled your locker), or have you just made up your mind to do it, or are are you in the contemplation phase...?

PharmD is not the worst thing you could do even if you do like research. Not all pharmacists work at Walgreens. There must be many in industry. We had a PharmD-only PI at my medical school and he was doing great stuff (genomics stuff, his name was in the news all the time). I did work with a PharmD student who later went on to a PhD (after completing pharmacy). But as people have alluded to, having some sort of clinical credential will be a valuable backup in the future.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

Finish first. It will make you much more valuable in the long run. Once you've done that you should have no problem becoming a grad school slave... err student. At least if you have the PharmD you might be able to find a job after you finish the PhD.

This is spot on. Let me give you three reasons:

First off, your PharmD might actually be a boost to your future career as a PharmD/PhD holder.

Second, not finishing could be a hindrance to admission into the PhD program.

Third, do you have PharmD debt? Whether or not you do the PhD, NIH has grants to help researchers pay off loans for the PharmD degree as a post-doctoral research, but you have to have completed the degree!

while the professor I do research with said that it isn't as bad as people make it out to be (she did a post-doc at weill cornell for 2 years then got her current assistant professor position).

Sure your professor says there are jobs out there--she got one. But if you only talk to people who have jobs it's a self-selecting sample.

There are about 7,000 biomedical or health PhDs graduating every year, and 500 open tenure-track faculty positions every year. (That's data from FASEB, not numbers I pulled out of my a**, by the way). So are there too many PhDs? You do the math 🙂

And no, industry and non-traditional careers can't absorb the extra 6,500, which is the next thing that professors will usually tell you if you say that there aren't enough jobs.

Part of the problem, if you look at NIH data on ages of PIs, is that senior PIs aren't retiring. If you track the age distribution from the 1970s until today, you see a big number of people in their late 20s to mid 30s getting grants around 1980 +/- a couple years. Then look at the age distributions every year since then and it's obvious that most of those people are still working. There are professors at my old grad department who are pushing 35 years and are still taking new grad students, still writing new grant applications... no sign of stopping.

But even leaving that aside, there are still too many damn people getting PhDs. The article that someone mentioned was from nature. Google "nature the phd factory" and you'll see it. Lots of other data, articles, etc. out there too if you start digging around.

To be fair, I don't think the problem is restricted to PhDs. I've also heard that lots of people are having trouble getting work as nurses, teachers, and anything else where there has been rapid growth in education programs in the last decade. It's possible that too many people are going to college at just about every level... BA/BS, masters, doctorate... all levels except for certain fields whose growth is highly restricted (like medicine). Google "are too many people going to college" and you'll find other info about that, as well. I've read that the national education debt not exceeds the national credit card debt!!

 

[jissho]

Your Pharm.D. offers more versatility than a Ph.D. After you get your degree, I am quite sure that you will be able to find a post doctoral research position. Stick with it.

 

[WhiskeyandXanax]

Thank you all very much for your responses.

I have not formally finalized my withdrawal from Pharmacy School, but I do plan on signing myself out within the month. I don't really want to stomach another 3 years of professional school.

That said, I have talked to prospective advisors and many are optimistic of my abilities and chances to succeed in graduate school.

I will give it my best shot. If it doesn't work out...I guess I will go from there.

 

[CerebroDad]

I have not formally finalized my withdrawal from Pharmacy School, but I do plan on signing myself out within the month. I don't really want to stomach another 3 years of professional school.

I really think you should finish your PharmD. You can work in pharm part time and still do plenty of research if that's what draws you to a PhD. Pharmacists can work 20 hours a week and still do better than some other full-time professionals that I know.

I have friends/family who are pharmacists, and a number of them who had seemingly strong doubts about their career choice when they were starting out; some describe pharm school as the worst time of their life. Then they graduated, started working, and saw how much better they had it than the vast majority of their non-pharmacist friends (they're definitely doing better than the people I know with PhD's). They're really glad that they finished pharmacy school.

You've already knocked out your first year. Think harder about whether you might regret giving up this great opportunity.

 

[Jorje286]

I differ with most people. This may sound idealistic but I figured life is is not worth wasting on practicalities. If you hate what you're doing and you don't want anything to do with pharmacy, better not waste 3 more years of your (peak time in) life being miserable and doing something you hate.

Sometimes we complicate decisions more than what they deserve. Just go where your heart's at, but make sure what you're going into and that you'll be doing something you absolutely love.

 

[Neuronix]

After doing grad school, it's hard to imagine anyone loving their grad school experience. Seems like most have an okay first year or two, but as it becomes year 3,4,5,6... it's a whole different story. So I'm worried you may just end up miserable there too. The difference is that a professional degree just about guarantees you a decent job.

 

[QofQuimica]

Another vote for finishing your PharmD here. If you still want to go to grad school in three years, the opportunity will always be there. My best friend in grad school did exactly that (PharmD-to-PhD). He's now working as a research pharmacist for a university. He's the only person I know with his combination of credentials and experiences, and it made him able to fit a specific niche far better than most other people could.

 

[RxMTM]

I have almost the same exact situation as you. I will tell you from direct experience that the longing you have for a PhD wont go away. The longer you wait to withdraw, the exponentially bigger the PhD mountain will be to climb.

Honestly, the issue of switching to a PhD dense a topic to think about. The best thing is just go and dont turn back. If you really have that killer instinct deep down that you will be a successful scientist, then you will stand above the market's odds. However, you will need to attend a top program and great post doc. I got into a top 12 school in chemistry even with a 2.8 in my pharm program. I have a kickass CV from research in undergrad. Dont be afraid. Schools will still pick you up.

Its better to withdraw now before you are financially doomed. Follow your dreams.

 

[Silverfalcon]

Eitherway, I am looking at dropping out of my PharmD program (Don't have great grades...but...its not like I completely failed ~ 2.7 GPA)

Someone correct me if I'm reading this wrong but...2.7 in PharmD schools? Shouldn't dropping out now send an alert to PhD schools?

I second others for staying in PharmD and definitely try to bring that grade up.

 

[1moretime]

what about taking a leave of absence for a year to do research. If you find that you really love it, then when the time comes, you can tell your pharmacy school that you dont want to return. also, correct me if i am wrong, but cant pharmds be involved in translational research?
that may be something for you to consider...🙂

 

[Silverfalcon]

what about taking a leave of absence for a year to do research. If you find that you really love it, then when the time comes, you can tell your pharmacy school that you dont want to return. also, correct me if i am wrong, but cant pharmds be involved in translational research?
that may be something for you to consider...🙂

Bold part is true. Heck, you don't even need any graduate degree to do research as long as the lab allows you. Having said that, using research as an excuse to leave pharmacy school and then applying to medical school is a dumb idea because then adcoms will want to know 1) why you left pharmacy school and 2) why you are leaving research. It makes you seem like you don't know what you want to do.

 

[pfaction]

PharmD student here, class of 2013. I'm not sure what to think of this topic.

The classes you're taking now...how did you go from 3.5 undergraduate to 2.7 graduate? Did you just not care about:
Pharmacology
Pathology
Medicinal Chemistry (okay, I'll grant you this)
THERAPEUTICS??

Your graduate classes will be as intense.

 

[K31]

Your graduate classes will be as intense.

Nobody cares about your grades in grad school as long as you pass. Your research/publications are all that matter.

 

[pfaction]

Oh, I guess my school is different...anything under a B and you're kicked out, automatically. They place emphasis on 1 paper and >3 GPA.

 

[K31]

Oh, I guess my school is different...anything under a B and you're kicked out, automatically. They place emphasis on 1 paper and >3 GPA.

That's what I meant by "as long as you pass"--anything under a B is not a passing grade in grad school. However, the grading criteria tend to be much more lenient than undergrad or professional school--in many of my grad school classes, the B/C cutoff on the test was in the 50's.

 

[pfaction]

Ah...then I'll bow out of this topic. I just thought as a PharmD candidate I'd see what this 2.7 is about.

 

[Jorje286]

PharmD student here, class of 2013. I'm not sure what to think of this topic.

The classes you're taking now...how did you go from 3.5 undergraduate to 2.7 graduate? Did you just not care about:
Pharmacology
Pathology
Medicinal Chemistry (okay, I'll grant you this)
THERAPEUTICS??

Your graduate classes will be as intense.

Not really. Graduate classes aren't as memory based as classes in professional schools.