LECOM Erie PBL vs AZCOM

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marianhood1009

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I was waitlisted at LECOM Erie and Bradenton in April. I was accepted to AZCOM in May and I enrolled. Today I just found out I was accepted to LECOM Erie for the PBL pathway. It's a really tough decision to make and I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice.

Factors I'm considering are:

serve underserved populations
international rotation opportunity
service trip opportunity
friendly administration/accessible faculty/support (tutoring/counseling)
volunteer in clinic/early clinical exposure
location

on campus housing
no car (I don't have a license yet, I'm working on it)
no traveling for rotations/rotation setup
curriculum (few lectures, board prep, reinforcement of material)
program reputation (board scores/residency placement/incoming stats)
facilities, resources, sim labs

tuition
class size (I think I prefer small)
grading (P/F or grades)
no dress code or drink/food rules
vibe during interview day/impression of school
recorded lectures
actual campus, not just one building

I really love AZCOM's campus, the location, the weather. I'm from NJ so I would love to go to somewhere far and different. The on campus housing is a plus, and I got rotations in West Valley Phoenix so I wouldn't have to keep moving every year and wouldn't have to travel for rotations.

LECOM has a great reputation, especially for primary care, which is what I'm interested in. And I think I would love the PBL pathway. AZCOM's curriculum didn't seem so interesting, honestly they didn't provide that much information about it so it seems like it's just lectures, occasional "small" groups. I can afford the tuition of AZCOM but obviously I would love a cheaper tuition.

Can anyone give me more information about rotations at Erie? Would I have to travel a lot? Does the school set you up with locations or are students responsible for finding sites on their own?

At LECOM are there opportunities to work in rural or underserved areas?

I think LECOM doesn't permit international rotations but are there service trip opportunities during breaks that students go on? AZCOM has on to Guatemala during the summer I believe.

How often are there exams for PBL students at Erie? How do grades work?

Are lectures recorded at Erie?

Does anyone know which school has better board scores and residency placement or job placement? I can only find pass rates for boards.

There are things I like about both school and I know ultimately I have to make the decision but any input and advice or comments on how other people made their decisions would be greatly appreciated.
 
This is not a tough decision. AZCOM for the DO program right? Versus LECOM for a post-bacc program? Take AZCOM and run. Save time, stress, and money.

No.

He's asking about AZCOM for the DO program vs LECOM for the DO program. What he means by LECOM PBL is their style of teaching. Instead of the traditional lecture based curriculum, they do a problem-based learning (PBL) where students learn by reading and discussing cases.

I'd advise for LECOM. What you list as your pros for LECOM (cheaper tuition, loving the PBL, great rep for primary care) are what you seem to really care about. Your pros for AZCOM (location, weather, international service) seem weaker and you don't seem as enthusiastic.

I'm fairly certain that LECOM has a higher board pass rate and score. I mean, if more people pass, then the board average has to be higher, right? 😎
 
Yea I was talking about the DO programs. I'm having a tough time because I know LECOM has a better program and reputation but the little things like on campus housing, international rotations and service trips, the weather and climate, being close to a city (phoenix), opportunity to work with underserved populations, support of the faculty/administration, staying in the same place for 4 years, dissecting a cadaver (PBL students at Erie don't get to do this), they all add up. I don't think there's much around Erie to do and the weather will be depressing for most of the year. I'm sure I can find alternatives to international work, like doing it during breaks and stuff.

It might seem silly to pass up on a better program for these things, but it makes me wonder if I'd be happier at AZCOM because I'm not giving a lot of "small" things I want from a medical school. LECOM's program is better but it's up to me to work hard and succeed, the school's not going to carry me through it, so I'm wondering if having these small things from AZCOM will be worth giving up the better reputation and lower tuition in the end.

Also, I don't really know what AZCOM's reputation is like, so I'm afraid of choosing a bad school I guess. Is there a ranking list of schools or anything?

And yea that's true about boards. I guess if the pass rate is higher the scores probably are too. I think LECOM is generally above the national average too.
 
I've been living in AZ for almost a decade now. The biggest question is...

Do you like 115 degree weather?

Glendale is usually the hottest part of PHX.
 
There's no official ranking for DO schools. That said, LECOM does have a great primary care program and the lower tuition would greatly help. But azcom is a established school and might have a better selection of rotations, you never know what specialty you might enjoy.
I would go for azcom. I can't deal with the cold and azcom is more established.
 
Oh whoops lol my bad. It does seem like OP wants LECOM then. Personally, I would choose AZCOM because it's more established but that's just me.

There's no official ranking for DO schools. That said, LECOM does have a great primary care program and the lower tuition would greatly help. But azcom is a established school and might have a better selection of rotations, you never know what specialty you might enjoy.
I would go for azcom. I can't deal with the cold and azcom is more established.

AZCOM opened in 1996. LECOM opened in 1992. That makes LECOM older, but essentially they began around the same time. What do you guys mean by more established?

Yea I was talking about the DO programs. I'm having a tough time because I know LECOM has a better program and reputation but the little things like on campus housing, international rotations and service trips, the weather and climate, being close to a city (phoenix), opportunity to work with underserved populations, support of the faculty/administration, staying in the same place for 4 years, dissecting a cadaver (PBL students at Erie don't get to do this), they all add up. I don't think there's much around Erie to do and the weather will be depressing for most of the year. I'm sure I can find alternatives to international work, like doing it during breaks and stuff.

It might seem silly to pass up on a better program for these things, but it makes me wonder if I'd be happier at AZCOM because I'm not giving a lot of "small" things I want from a medical school. LECOM's program is better but it's up to me to work hard and succeed, the school's not going to carry me through it, so I'm wondering if having these small things from AZCOM will be worth giving up the better reputation and lower tuition in the end.

Also, I don't really know what AZCOM's reputation is like, so I'm afraid of choosing a bad school I guess. Is there a ranking list of schools or anything?

And yea that's true about boards. I guess if the pass rate is higher the scores probably are too. I think LECOM is generally above the national average too.

Now personally, I'd consider this a tough decision, because both schools are excellent. I don't know too much about the area where AZCOM is, but I'm pretty familiar with Erie.

As far as campus housing goes, don't worry about it. LECOM is essentially one building and is literally across the street from a LOT of housing. Its more expensive mind you, but on-campus housing is also usually more expensive. Even if you don't like there, you could easily live somewhere close by (you'll need a car though, especially for shopping and during the winter), because Erie is a small place.

Obviously you know there are no official international service rotations at Erie, but I would contact someone at the administration there and ask them about being able to set up an international away rotation.

LECOM does have an International Medical Society chapter, and they do have medical mission trips. See here for info about the IMS: http://www.lecomsga.com/student-clubs/ims/. This is something that honestly I think you will find at ANY medical school in the country. Even newer ones (a few years old) have sent students on international medical missions, but they are usually strongly influenced by student participation.

For underserved/rural populations, Erie is surrounded by rural areas, and there should be at least some experience with them. That being said, AZCOM has a much greater emphasis in this area, and would likely have more opportunities.

Staying in the same place: Obviously you have to move around during 3rd and 4th year at LECOM. That being said, they have a lot of 13s, which means you could be in the position to do almost all of them in one area, but for sure you'll have to more for a couple.

For dissecting, you are correct in that PBL students don't dissect or even do prosection with cadavers. That being said, PBL students in Erie have full access to the LDP/DSP cadavers and can examine them any time that they aren't in use. Most people are happy doing it that way, because as opposed to spending hours cutting, they can just go in when they want to review something. I personally would prefer to have my own cadaver, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that would make.

Weather in Erie is absolutely terrible most of the time. Of course if you like snow its probably wonderful, but in reality its lots of snow for most of the school year. AZ is much better in this regard.

There are a lot of outdoorsy stuff to do in Erie, but not what I would call big city life. That being said, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Pittsburgh are all within 1.5-2 hours away from Erie, so you could easily do weekend trips if you wanted to.

PBL seems great in terms of schedule, and I'm sure you won't find the same freedom or versatility at many other places. That being said, LECOM has a lot of restrictions: dress code, no eating outside of the cafeteria, and mandatory attendance for the first 12 weeks of class. On top of that a consistent complaint from students and graduates is that the administration is rough and generally not all that friendly.

Tough decision, but I would just take a moment, narrow down 3-4 most important things that you want in a school, and pick the one that wins. I imagine the most important thing in med school is being happy where you are, so figure out the few things that have the biggest effect on your happiness on a daily basis and base your decision on them.
 
I would take prosection over student dissection everyday of the week and twice on sunday. Nothing worse than an anatomy lab exam and your cadaver is butchered because someone got antsy and didn't take the time to properly dissect the brachial plexus or whatever region you are studying.
 
I think if you're interested in primary care that it would be a good idea to keep your debt burden down, less you later feel compelled to specialize in order to pay off the debt.

LECOM = $30,500 vs. AZCOM = $52,600

I mean, that's a $22,000 difference per year, or basically an additional $88,000.00 in principal loan balance over four years. That is a huge premium to pay for weather and creature comforts, although I do hear Erie's winter is pretty intense. There seems to be a lot of literature and, if you read SDN, anecdotal evidence to support the idea that debt plays a huge role in specialty decisions come match time. Once you figure in the full cost of attendance, AZCOM will probably be near $300,000.00 in principal loan balance by the time you're done, if you don't have any other financial assistance.

I don't think there was anyone who ever said, "Wow, I wish I had taken out more money. All this extra income at the end of the month is such a burden." Even if a lavish attending lifestyle isn't up your alley, there will still be plenty of ways to spend the savings over the course of paying back those loans.
 
Everyone, thank you so much for your help. I really appreciate it.

I was talking with my parents about the PBL pathway because that was what attracted me to LECOM. I know that lecture doesn't work for me. I do better studying on my own and reinforcing the material in study groups. That said, it sounds like PBL at LECOM is what will help me become the best doctor I can be just because the structure of the curriculum is probably what I need to be on top of studying the material. The rest of the things I can probably find alternatives for and from what was said I'd be able to do international work, maybe even figure out an international rotation.

I'm still finding it hard to commit to LECOM because I feel like I'm giving up some small things, compromising, but considering the education is what I'm going to medical school for, I'm leaning towards LECOM because I think it's the environment in which I will excel the most academically.

I know there are places a couple of hours away from Erie, but I'm worried about having an outlet from studying. In Arizona I could go hiking, bike trails, go swimming, and go to the city fairly easily. Is there anything in Erie I can do in a day for a couple of hours if I wanted a short break from studying? I'm worried that with it being a small town and with lots of snow I won't have an outlet for the stress of medical school.

Also, I can deal with hot weather. My family is from India so I've spent many summers there and the climate is similar except it's humid in India. How many months out of the year is the weather actually above 100F?

And yea, what rzoo14, what do you mean by AZCOM is more established? And how are the rotations better?
 
Also, I read LECOM has a teaching hospital. Do students get to shadow or work there during the first two years?
 
Is there anything in Erie I can do in a day for a couple of hours if I wanted a short break from studying? I'm worried that with it being a small town and with lots of snow I won't have an outlet for the stress of medical school.

I wouldn't call Erie a small town. The city's population is just over 100,000 and the census designated metro area (essentially Erie County, PA) is about 280k. Based on my visits, the city has some things to work on..ahem...but a small town it is not. More like a small city. The lake is a huge tourist attraction, particularly in the summer months. The metro area has a very nice center strip that sits in some of the outside townships that includes all the big name stores (and a mall) and restaurants consistent with other cities of similar size. In all honesty, if Erie were closer to a larger metropolitan area, it would probably be the ideal place to live and go to school. The 1.5-2 hour drive to Pittsburgh, Buffalo, or Cleveland and the relative lack of anything outside the city and suburban townships takes away some of the potential luster, but it also probably gives the city the geographic distance and independence to remain the central hub for the area. There are plenty of threads on here where people talk about specifics regarding the area.

People who fly into Pittsburgh, Cleveland, or Buffalo and drive for their interviews probably experience the vast nothingness of Pennsylvania that defines the state. Most of the state is rural with large metropolitan areas mixed in. If you've lived in more densely packed suburban or urban areas, this can be unsettling, but that's just how it is. It does't necessarily mean that you won't have access to most of the things you're used to.
 
Also, I read LECOM has a teaching hospital. Do students get to shadow or work there during the first two years?

Millcreek Community Hospital

To my understanding, the hospital is at the very least affiliated with LECOM. LECOM is all over the website and the fitness center is right beside the hospital campus. I'm not sure if students rotate or do clinical time there but they do have residencies that are available.
 
And yea, what rzoo14, what do you mean by AZCOM is more established? And how are the rotations better?

AZCOM opened in 1996. LECOM opened in 1992. That makes LECOM older, but essentially they began around the same time. What do you guys mean by more established?

AZCOM has a better reputation, which could be subjective but they also have a good match list. Also, I'm not a huge fan of PBL so there's that.
OP, look into this thread for reviews for LECOM and AZCOM. They might provide some more insight into the schools.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=407104
 
...
I know there are places a couple of hours away from Erie, but I'm worried about having an outlet from studying. In Arizona I could go hiking, bike trails, go swimming, and go to the city fairly easily. Is there anything in Erie I can do in a day for a couple of hours if I wanted a short break from studying? I'm worried that with it being a small town and with lots of snow I won't have an outlet for the stress of medical school...

Erie is one of the best places to be if you like outdoorsy stuff. Hiking, fishing, parks, a BIG lake, etc. Sure in the winter it might be tougher, but then there's skiing and apparently the LECOM Wellness Center is amazing. Also the PBL campus (building) is at the bayfront right near the lake, so lake stuff is always easily accessible and fun.

AZCOM has a better reputation, which could be subjective but they also have a good match list. Also, I'm not a huge fan of PBL so there's that.
OP, look into this thread for reviews for LECOM and AZCOM. They might provide some more insight into the schools.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=407104

Match lists are pretty hard to compare objectively, but LECOM also has a pretty decent match list, but obviously the region affects things a bit. For example most of the people at LECOM are from PA, FL and WV. PA and FL DOs are required to do an AOA approved 1yr rotational internship in order to get licensed to work there and this was also true for WV until recently, so a fair amount of LECOM graduates go to AOA programs. On top of that LECOM has a pretty solid OPTI system (AZCOM also has an OPTI) that graduates go to. AZCOM is more represented in the ACGME world probably due to a combination of the fact that most students are from the West/Southwest US and in turn don't have the same licensing restriction. Also, in general there are fewer DO opportunities in that part of the country than in the MI, OH, PA, and WV region.

They both have very solid scores and matches, but I don't think I know of anything that is strong enough for me to confidently say one is "more established" than the other.

That thread is amazing by the way. Start on Page 21 for the post with a list of all the previous reviews.
 
I think if you're interested in primary care that it would be a good idea to keep your debt burden down, less you later feel compelled to specialize in order to pay off the debt.

LECOM = $30,500 vs. AZCOM = $52,600

I mean, that's a $22,000 difference per year, or basically an additional $88,000.00 in principal loan balance over four years. That is a huge premium to pay for weather and creature comforts, although I do hear Erie's winter is pretty intense. There seems to be a lot of literature and, if you read SDN, anecdotal evidence to support the idea that debt plays a huge role in specialty decisions come match time. Once you figure in the full cost of attendance, AZCOM will probably be near $300,000.00 in principal loan balance by the time you're done, if you don't have any other financial assistance.

I don't think there was anyone who ever said, "Wow, I wish I had taken out more money. All this extra income at the end of the month is such a burden." Even if a lavish attending lifestyle isn't up your alley, there will still be plenty of ways to spend the savings over the course of paying back those loans.

Some good points here. The total COA at AZCOM is around 80,000 whereas its around 60,000 for LECOM. Thats just for one year. Makes a significant difference in your final debt. Having said that, the main thing you should be asking yourself while making this decision is which curriculum you prefer as the two are very different.
 
Yea I was talking about the DO programs. I'm having a tough time because I know LECOM has a better program and reputation but the little things like on campus housing, international rotations and service trips, the weather and climate, being close to a city (phoenix), opportunity to work with underserved populations, support of the faculty/administration, staying in the same place for 4 years, dissecting a cadaver (PBL students at Erie don't get to do this), they all add up. I don't think there's much around Erie to do and the weather will be depressing for most of the year. I'm sure I can find alternatives to international work, like doing it during breaks and stuff.

It might seem silly to pass up on a better program for these things, but it makes me wonder if I'd be happier at AZCOM because I'm not giving a lot of "small" things I want from a medical school. LECOM's program is better but it's up to me to work hard and succeed, the school's not going to carry me through it, so I'm wondering if having these small things from AZCOM will be worth giving up the better reputation and lower tuition in the end.

Also, I don't really know what AZCOM's reputation is like, so I'm afraid of choosing a bad school I guess. Is there a ranking list of schools or anything?

And yea that's true about boards. I guess if the pass rate is higher the scores probably are too. I think LECOM is generally above the national average too.

Stop worrying about a school's reputation. For DO schools, reputation of the school you choose to attend hardly matters when it comes to being competitive for residency programs.
 
I was accepted to LECOM Erie and CCOM (sister school to AZCOM). CCOM was my first acceptance and I was ready to send in my 1000 payment, but I decided to go to my LECOM interview simply because LECOM has the cheapest tuition. I was impressed by the school.

In the end, I chose LECOM. After talking with many doctors in the many hospitals I volunteered at, they all said the same thing: at the end of the day, you take the same test, have the same letters at the end of your name, go to the cheapest school.

Now if AZCOM/CCOM was 40,000 dollars in tuition, I MIGHT have picked them, but $52,000?! That's ridiculous. Easily one of the most expensive schools in the nation. Add in living costs over 4 years, you're easily looking at over $300,000 of debt going to AZCOM. I don't think nice weather is worth that. LECOM Erie has apartments right across the street from the school. $350.00 a month for a very nice sized apartment with modern appliances. Where I come form that's dirt cheap. The city of Erie is not very expensive. I will sacrifice not having to drink water in class or wearing a dress shirt if it means saving $100,000.

Do yourself a favor, go to LECOM and buy a nice car or house or both when you graduate with the +$100,000 you will be saving. Debt matters, especially when it reaches numbers like these. 20 years from now, you will probably not remember minor stresses in medical school (bad weather, dress code, etc), but your debt will still be there.
 
I'm fairly certain that LECOM has a higher board pass rate and score. I mean, if more people pass, then the board average has to be higher, right? 😎

Just to clear this up, AZCOM has a 96% board pass rate and is consistently well above the national average. I'm not sure what LECOMs is, but I would be surprised if it is any higher than that.

Also, I just don't get why people keep commenting on 115 degree weather somehow being "nice." I've lived in 115-120 degree weather and it is NOT fun.
 
Also, I just don't get why people keep commenting on 115 degree weather somehow being "nice." I've lived in 115-120 degree weather and it is NOT fun.

From my experience people think 115 sounds great after suffering through a recent winter but yet have no experience with 100 degree highs, much less 115. I live in Utah and while I think it can't get any worse than how it feels at 105 all I have to do is visit Phoenix and realize there is worse out there, lol.
 
Just to clear this up, AZCOM has a 96% board pass rate and is consistently well above the national average. I'm not sure what LECOMs is, but I would be surprised if it is any higher than that.

Also, I just don't get why people keep commenting on 115 degree weather somehow being "nice." I've lived in 115-120 degree weather and it is NOT fun.

I live in Arizona and will be starting at AZCOM next month. I was here when it hit 120° F two weeks ago. I've also lived in a state where 0° F was the high many days during the winter. Purely from a weather perspective, I would take heat over cold any day. It's ridiculously hot during the summer, yes, but it is beautiful for nine months of the year and miserable for three. Compare that to colder climates, where it's beautiful for three months of the year and miserable for nine. Also, EVERYWHERE in Arizona had AC. I would say that living in 120° with AC is far more bearable than 80° without.

That said, weather alone is a poor reason to pick a school. Still, I am thrilled to be attending AZCOM. Good reputation, good match lists, and good facilities. From what I've heard, you'll have to be creative to get great clinical rotations at either school, so that's a toss-up.
 
From my experience people think 115 sounds great after suffering through a recent winter but yet have no experience with 100 degree highs, much less 115. I live in Utah and while I think it can't get any worse than how it feels at 105 all I have to do is visit Phoenix and realize there is worse out there, lol.

I have a good friend in Provo.. two weeks ago it hit 104° there and it was 118° here... he was far more miserable than I because his house doesn't have AC. Mine does. 😀
 
And yea, what rzoo14, what do you mean by AZCOM is more established? And how are the rotations better?

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I will answer about rotations anyways, I know a lot of people that go to Erie, and have heard many complaints about their rotations. A main reason WHY LECOM's tuition is cheaper is that they don't pay (or pay as much) as other schools for their students to rotate at hospitals. That being said, the rotation sites are not as great and are scattered around. You have the choice of either sequence (what order you want your rotations to be in) or location. If you choose sequence, you're basically screwed to move from state to state on a monthly basis (opposed to AZCOM which allows you to stay in one location). When you're picking out the rotations, instead of most schools which will put you into a lottery system, LECOM breaks you up into small groups of students, throws you in a room and forces you to not-so-nicely debate between students who gets what locations (since some locations NEED to be filled, you have to figure out amongst yourselves who gets "stuck" with them). Recently, they dropped a hospital in Michigan that I know of/didn't renew the contract. People who had set up rotations there in the near future were forced to choose a new hospital with no explanation. They weren't allowed to rotate there (even if they wanted to audition for a potential residency - which in my opinion SUCKS because that's the point of rotations). My point of this is, LECOM's clinical years do not have the best reputation. HOWEVER, I know LECOM students have a good reputation of being well prepared through their first and second years (aka pre clinical education = great). I don't want to make it seem like this is a LECOM bashing paragraph because I don't know a lot about AZCOM rotations and every school definitely has their faults. Just thought I'd share what I know to add in to your decision. Congrats on getting into multiple schools!
 
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I would pick the school based strictly on the quality of 3rd and 4th year.
 
I would pick the school based strictly on the quality of 3rd and 4th year.

The problem really is getting a good sample size. I have heard from people at LECOM that said their clinical education was amazing and they did the majority of theirs at UPMC and UH/Case. I've also talked to people that did their's at non-academic or outpatient places that had positive things to say, and I've talked to people at LECOM who said their clinical education was miserable and mostly did rotations at smaller community hospitals.

It seems like its a toss-up at LECOM for that stuff, but from what I read on the "Pros and cons of your medical school" thread, that seems to be the case at a lot of DO programs. It seems like the only way to confidently know you'll have good rotations is to be very actively involved in setting them up and talking to upperclassmen about which programs are the best. Either that or go to a place that has nothing but big programs with more than enough rotation spots, which seems less common now with big class size expansions happening all over the place.
 
Yea, pretty much all DO schools have at least a few good rotation sites. The problem is that there are too many students, so not all of the students get the opportunity to rotate at the decent sites. Rotation sites are usually picked via a lottery system, which leads to a diverse experience for many people at the same school.
 
Just to clear this up, AZCOM has a 96% board pass rate and is consistently well above the national average. I'm not sure what LECOMs is, but I would be surprised if it is any higher than that.

Also, I just don't get why people keep commenting on 115 degree weather somehow being "nice." I've lived in 115-120 degree weather and it is NOT fun.

Hot environment >> cold environment.
 
I live in Arizona and will be starting at AZCOM next month. I was here when it hit 120° F two weeks ago. I've also lived in a state where 0° F was the high many days during the winter. Purely from a weather perspective, I would take heat over cold any day. It's ridiculously hot during the summer, yes, but it is beautiful for nine months of the year and miserable for three. Compare that to colder climates, where it's beautiful for three months of the year and miserable for nine. Also, EVERYWHERE in Arizona had AC. I would say that living in 120° with AC is far more bearable than 80° without.

Good point. I'm from northern Utah and so I experience plenty of cold and heat, but my experience with 115-120+ heat comes from Iraq and Afghanistan with 60-80 pounds of very non-breathable gear and absolutely no opportunity for respite from the heat for days on end. Ahhh, I still remember drinking water that had been sitting in 120 degree heat and thinking of it as refreshing haha.

So yeah, seeing it from your perspective certainly paints a prettier picture 😀, and that's good because AZCOM is a top choice school for me.
 
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