Length of time in program

[gth1985]

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With the average time in program being six years, should it be a concern when some programs consistently have students take over seven years to complete? What could this extra time be indicative of?

Here are two example programs:
http://psychology.usu.edu/Graduates...D/Student-admissions-outcomes-and-other-data/

http://www.niu.edu/psyc/graduate/clinical/admissions.shtml

 

[psybee]

it kinda depends. when i was applying i was leery of programs with avgs of 7 yrs and loved that my program was 5.5. now as a more research oriented student i see that there are many reasons why one would take an extra year or so--to get more pubs and be more competitive for research-oriented postdocs, if you have a partner in a grad program (one of you is waiting for the other), family obligations (some programs are more family-oriented than others), to get an extra year of practicum because you are freaked out about internship and want to up your chances. i'd contact students at those programs and get thier 2 cents on what it means.

 

[beantownpsych]

It can also depend on graduation dates set by the university. Since internship is required for graduation it means that people generally finish in the summer months. Many universities don't have summer/fall graduation dates so basically students can have all degree requirements complete 3-9 months before the degree is actually conferred. I believe for disclosure data universities are required to report data the degree is conferred, not the date their students complete the requirements. Granted 7 years is still a long time...

 

[Ollie123]

Can happen for a number of reasons. Also be aware that there is often variability across labs. One university I'm thinking of typically gets people out in ~6, but one faculty member pulls up the mean since his students routinely take around 10 (which is madness - though most don't need to do post-docs so that helps a bit).

Personally, I'm not in a huge rush to graduate. I'm debating whether I want to do 6+1 (the average for our program) or 7+1 right now. Have enough hours I'd probably have as good a shot as anyone does these days applying for internship, but considering sticking around for a number of other reasons. Some of that will dependent on 1) Whether NIH funds my fellowship and I have guaranteed funding and 2) What my girlfriend decides to do in terms of graduate school. A 7th year is not ideal but I've been able to get an enormous array of skills here and in this case, it might get me the opportunity to get some intensive experiences in particular areas that its unlikely I'll be able to easily find time for once I'm out. To me the question is more about "What do I need to do to get where I want to go" than one of time. Some schools are able to produce that experience in 4+1, but it seems like a pretty small proportion that can get students out that fast and actually have them be remotely competitive on the academic job market.

So I'd say it depends. If you are planning to have kids soon (or already have them), have people you need to support, etc. than it totally makes sense to get out asap. If you have guaranteed funding and it will help make you more competitive, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with taking a bit longer to get out. I'm quite confident I'll pretty much have my pick of post-docs (and more or less have standing offers for some), which would definitely not have been the case if I was trying to get out in 4. On the other hand, I've got an extra 2-3 years of earning 20k, which is unfortunate.

For these reasons and more, I wouldn't place too much emphasis on time to graduation particularly not in the case of a year in either direction. If average time starts getting up to 8, 9, 10, etc. that should definitely be a cause for concern, but if I see students getting out in 4 with most having no more than 1-2 mediocre publications and fairly limited experiences in other things, that seems far more concerning to me than having an average time to completion of 6+1.

 

[gth1985]

it seems like a pretty small proportion that can get students out that fast and actually have them be remotely competitive on the academic job market.

So is it that if one is looking to have a career in academia, then the extra time can be good (and perhaps necessary) to build up the CV to compete in that arena, but the extra time may not be as necessary if someone wanted to work in a practice-oriented career?

 

[PsychResearch]

I am in a Developmental program although the research we do is Clinical. This is my 5th year. I was on my advisor's grant for 4 years and for this year I got a fellowship from the university. I am in doubt if it was the right move because I now have funding only until the Fall. I will defend my dissertation in the Summer as things stand right now. I don't know if it was the right move because if I don't get into any postdocs I will then have a gap. If anyone can share their thoughts on my situation, I would appreciate it. What can/should I do not to get myself out without what I want? My experience in the current place hasn't been the best, but I could survive longer if needed.

 

[paramour]

I'm a student at one of those programs. I can tell you that the average time currently shows high for multiple reasons being intimately familiar with it. For one, it used to be designed as a 6+1 year program. So the only way you were getting out of here in 6 years was if you came in with your master's degree--and even that was highly unlikely.

The coursework (so folks say) is considered heavy here. It is not uncommon for people to be taking classes through their 4th and 5th years (or basically up until whenever they're applying for internship). This is not to say that they have a full semester of classes, but they may have a class each semester. It does not help that the way courses are offered, you may not be able to take the courses required of you in the Fall semester (so it may be a light semester), but then you have a heavy Spring semester because EVERYTHING is offered in the Spring . . . so you are repeatedly taking classes in the Spring . . . year after year. Even though you may get to the point where there's really nothing for you to take in the Fall unless you opt to take an elective.

As others in the thread have mentioned already, we had some students who stuck around because they were advancing their CV with research.

We had some students who stuck around because they had children while in the program (some planned; some unplanned--typically supported by the dept regardless). Other students have entered with families, and they sometimes take longer due to familial obligations.

Then, we have some students who stuck around for some of the above reasons and then got stuck a year longer when they did not match for internship the first time around (typically because they restricted themselves geographically due to family).

The program now pushes a 5+1 model (as of the past couple years). They have restructured the timeline of many of the requirements to expedite students' progress through the program. Although it is still "earlyish," the past few cohorts seem to be making great strides in comparison to what was done traditionally. They are meeting major goals on time and ahead of time in comparison to previous cohorts, so everyone expects the average time to completion to decrease (eventually). There will still be the outliers due to some of the aforementioned reasons, but when you have those issues combined with the previous structure of our program, it often tends to work against you. 😎

Just my $0.02.

 

[3rdWave]

With the average time in program being six years, should it be a concern when some programs consistently have students take over seven years to complete? What could this extra time be indicative of?

Here are two example programs:
http://psychology.usu.edu/Graduates...D/Student-admissions-outcomes-and-other-data/

http://www.niu.edu/psyc/graduate/clinical/admissions.shtml

I am on internship now- as a 7th year grad student. I will defend my dissertation this summer. My thesis took a lot of time to train coders, qualifying exams put me behind by a year, and I got married and went on a honeymoon during grad school. I also wrote a major grant proposal/dissertation that was not funded and had to start over and write another dissertation proposal. These were all inefficiencies in my training. However, I did not take out loans during grad school, paid no tuition, and had jobs that paid decently or pretty well, or took on extra part time jobs and had an OK lifestyle during these years.

 

[3rdWave]

P.S. A very well respected, highly productive faculty member in my program warned against graduating too soon if you want to go into academia. You may be able to complete all requirements in 4-5 years, but you may not have enough pubs to compete for faculty jobs. Taking an extra year build your CV can be a wise choice depending on your career goals. Programs that produce clinicians may take less time on average to graduation, but research careers may take more time to prepare for the job market.

 

[paramour]

+1. Good point with the complexities of dissertation research. Neglected to mention a few of our students have been around "a bit longer" because of the nature of their dissertations. Most students use the university's intro psych pool for convenience sake. However, there are some who opt to complicate their dissertations by recruiting from outside the university (e.g., parents, schools, forensic populations, etc.). Obtaining a required number of participants from these populations takes more time in general compared to our intro psych students (who are required to complete a certain number of research credits, so you're bound to get participants more quickly). Others may muddle matters with the methods they choose (e.g., physio) or more complicated stats (if you need additional consultation).

 

[4410]

I know many programs have cohorts where your group of students takes all of the same courses together as they go through the program. Under this system everyone finish up in four to five years and you get very close supervision and faculty mentorship. Other programs follow a different path and students are allowed to select courses and develop their curriculum to some extent. This is how my program is and I have been here six years and I will graduate in year seven. Pluses and minuses to each scenario as I've heard that sometimes cohort groups have issues and sometimes you are competing with each other for research, practicum sites, etc....

Some programs have a seven year limit but others have a ten year limit. I really believe that people stretch out their program based on the time limits of the program. A program where I live in a Medical School is structured around four year time limit and students must be full time students beginning practicum in year one and comprehensive exams in the Spring of second year and internship the fourth year. Focus is much more on clinicals and the dissertation is actually structured where all students finish it up before the end of their third year. They have a captured internship at the Medical School so the students do not have to apply through APPIC but they do their internship at one of the sites or units where they did their practicums. There practicum supervisors choose who will do their internship in each of the units and they have enough units for all of the students to complete a year long internship. They have one faculty that their primary duty is the dissertation part of the program. They accept 10 students every year to the clinical psychology program at the medical school and all of the practicum rotation are at the medical school or associated/partner agencies. Selection of students is highly competitive as they have over 200 applicants for the seven slots. They do ongoing research and presentations in house as part of the program rather than presenting at conferences so students have some research emphasis. Most all of the students selected finish up the program and many of the graduates end up working at the Medical School in some capacity.

 

[PavlovWolf]

I hear you, 3rdwave. I also had to start over with regards to the dissertation. Thankfully, the thing is defended now...whew.

 

[irish80122]

I suppose I will represent the other side of the spectrum. I come from a program that has always been a 4 + 1 for those coming in with a BA, and still pretty much is, though I wonder if we will become less competitive in the future for internship just due to lack of time in graduate school. I have pitched moving to a 5 + 1 to the faculty, but their position was "why do that when the students are already achieving what we want from them in 4 + 1."

So what can you do in 4 + 1? In year 4.5, I am halfway through a very research-heavy clinical internship, have seven publications (but only one first authored, several others are in the pipeline but it is sometimes hard for faculty to keep up with non-milestone projects given the timeline), and have defended my dissertation. What haven't I done? As I mentioned, I only have the one first-authored publication, and I have never applied for a grant, which I think has hurt me on the job market.

As for the job market, I applied for faculty positions at research I universities this year but only received one on-site interview. I think an extra year would have been very helpful for being competitive right out of grad school. However, on the flip side, should the one interview not work out I will take a one-year post doctoral fellowship that pays significantly more than a graduate stipend (3 times more in my case), so I can't really complain as I get the same benefits with much greater pay.

Overall, given the current internship landscape, I think 5 + 1 is ideal, more is not a bad thing as long as you can live on the funding, and 4 + 1 is fine as long as your students are matching. There are always post-docs, where you get paid better than you do during your grad school years, so why not try to get an internship as soon as you are competitive and then move on?