Let's define "Gunner"

[Redpancreas]

Hey everyone. Another thread that isn't directly related to medical stuff (I'm having a little too much fun these days on SDN). However, I ran into the issue today and I think it needs discussion.
Gunner" is a ubiquitous term in medical schools but it has a very vague definition so It'd be cool to have an SDN definition so people could be like "Student Doctor Network" defines "gunner" as such.

Here's a couple of my own medical school definitions to work with:

An individual who acts, not only in his or her self-interest, but also knowingly and maliciously against the self-interests of others.

An individual who does not feel remorse in engaging in unethical scenarios or being superficial to put her or himself ahead, relative to others.



Maybe if we can get this standardized, we can have a display the definition in schools maybe and have students united against it.

I mainly made this thread because I see the term being used annoyingly often where it really needn't be used. I know it sounds kind of political but there's a big difference between a gunner and someone who just works hard to an anal extent. There's already a word for a annoyingly hard-worker. It's a "try-hard".

Susan is gunning for dermatology-->

Susan is misinforming others intentionally about what is needed for matching in Dermatology or is sabotaging the applications of others.


Joe is trying hard for Radiation Oncology-->

Joe is working his hardest to match in Radiation Oncology. While his hard work ultimately raises the standard demanded for others in the field (which admittedly goes against the short term interests of others), it ultimately raises the standard of medical care.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Spitphire]

Hey everyone. Another thread that isn't directly related to medical stuff (I'm having a little too much fun these days on SDN). However, I ran into the issue today and I think it needs discussion.
Gunner" is a ubiquitous term in medical schools but it has a very vague definition so It'd be cool to have an SDN definition so people could be like "Student Doctor Network" defines "gunner" as such.

Here's a couple of my own medical school definitions to work with:

An individual who acts, not only in his or her self-interest, but also knowingly and maliciously against the self-interests of others.

An individual who does not feel remorse in engaging in unethical scenarios or being superficial to put her or himself ahead, relative to others.



Maybe if we can get this standardized, we can have a display the definition in schools maybe and have students united against it.

I mainly made this thread because I see the term being used annoyingly often where it really needn't be used. I know it sounds kind of political but there's a big difference between a gunner and someone who just works hard to an anal extent. There's already a word for a annoyingly hard-worker. It's a "try-hard".

Susan is gunning for dermatology-->

Susan is misinforming others intentionally about what is needed for matching in Dermatology or is sabotaging the applications of others.


Joe is trying hard for Radiation Oncology-->

Joe is working his hardest to match in Radiation Oncology. While his hard work ultimately raises the standard demanded for others in the field (which admittedly goes against the short term interests of others), it ultimately raises the standard of medical care.

I always assumed these to be the accurate definition.

 

[crimsonkid85]

I always assumed these to be the accurate definition.

Agree, but people use the word gunner all the time to just mean people who work very hard for something, which is a shame, imho. Since when is it a crime to work hard for something?

 

[Spitphire]

Agree, but people use the word gunner all the time to just mean people who work very hard for something, which is a shame, imho. Since when is it a crime to work hard for something?

My thoughts exactly. I had a professor call me a 'gunner' because I scored the highest on one of her exams as a freshman while everyone else was upperclassmen. I didn't know what to say

 

[TheBossDoctor]

From my experience:

Working hard involves just focusing on yourself and putting in the effort you need to in order to achieve your goals

Gunning involves comparing yourself to others and trying to out-do/one-up them (basically being competitive)

 

[XmedBarney]

From my experience:

Working hard involves just focusing on yourself and putting in the effort you need to in order to achieve your goals

Gunning involves comparing yourself to others and trying to out-do/one-up them (basically being competitive)

Dude that's not gunning, that's medical admissions, you are competing with someone, it could even be the person next to you.

IMO, you can't consider someone a gunner unless there is an intentional act of sabotage.

 

[baconshrimps]

I have been told by a number of my classmates in graduate school that I am the hardest-working person they have seen in the pre-med game.
Alot of people for short just say "BaconShrimps, dude, you're such a gunner - you're totally gonna get into an awesome medical school."
I say lets stop arguing over what a gunner is or is not, and unless someone is saying it to you maliciously, take it to be a compliment. I sure as hell do.

 

[sinombre]

 

[justAstudent]

How did you find my yearbook picture?

 

[Ismet]

I've started to use the word "sniper" for those people who sneakily ask you how you're studying or how you did on an exam.

 

[crimsonkid85]

I've started to use the word "sniper" for those people who sneakily ask you how you're studying or how you did on an exam.

i am curious about this -- how does one 'sneakily' ask you how you did on an exam?????

 

[Ismet]

i am curious about this -- how does one 'sneakily' ask you how you did on an exam?????

No idea. Pretend "sneakily" just goes with asking how you're studying.

The more medicine that goes into my brain, the more grammar/sentence structure goes out. 😛

 

[frosted_flake]

From my experience:

Working hard involves just focusing on yourself and putting in the effort you need to in order to achieve your goals

Gunning involves comparing yourself to others and trying to out-do/one-up them (basically being competitive)

well said

 

[sourdoughllama]

From my experience:

Working hard involves just focusing on yourself and putting in the effort you need to in order to achieve your goals

Gunning involves comparing yourself to others and trying to out-do/one-up them (basically being competitive)

Dude that's not gunning, that's medical admissions, you are competing with someone, it could even be the person next to you.

IMO, you can't consider someone a gunner unless there is an intentional act of sabotage.

That's why some people find pre-med no biggie and others (like myself) want to kill themselves lol... definitions are so different. I agree with @TheBossDoctor though, they're all gunners to me - nice ones don't sabotage, mean ones do.

Urban dictionary doesn't seem to think that gunning has to involve sabotage http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gunner. This is probably why pre-meds and pre-law are hated universally.

 

[baconshrimps]

That's why some people find pre-med no biggie and others (like myself) want to kill themselves lol... definitions are so different. I agree with @TheBossDoctor though, they're all gunners to me - nice ones don't sabotage, mean ones do.

Urban dictionary doesn't seem to think that gunning has to involve sabotage http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gunner. This is probably why pre-meds and pre-law are hated universally.

I think pre-meds are hated as much as actual Lawyers, and pre-law students are as much the life of the party/cool guy in the room as an actual physician. Pre-law students are more chill and less on edge than pre-meds, and there is a reason for it.

Why? because it doesn't take very much talent to get into law school compared with that which you need to get into medical school. I'm pretty sure there was a thread about this at somepoint showing the GPA/MCAT/acceptance rate for the top 20 medical schools vs. the GPA/LSAT/acceprance rate for the top 20 or so law schools. It ended up being like an average of 2% or so acceptance rate for medical schools being looked at vs. 25-30% acceptance rate for the law schools that were being looked at. It drives me to the point of white hot rage when my pre-law friends complain about how hard they need to work to get into law school. I am not the person to cry to about hard work to, lol.

 

[crimsonkid85]

I think pre-meds are hated as much as actual Lawyers, and pre-law students are as much the life of the party/cool guy in the room as an actual physician. Pre-law students are more chill and less on edge than pre-meds, and there is a reason for it.

Why? because it doesn't take very much talent to get into law school compared with that which you need to get into medical school. I'm pretty sure there was a thread about this at somepoint showing the GPA/MCAT/acceptance rate for the top 20 medical schools vs. the GPA/LSAT/acceprance rate for the top 20 or so law schools. It ended up being like an average of 2% or so acceptance rate for medical schools being looked at vs. 25-30% acceptance rate for the law schools that were being looked at. It drives me to the point of white hot rage when my pre-law friends complain about how hard they need to work to get into law school. I am not the person to cry to about hard work to, lol.

Yeah, but you'll get the last laugh when they graduate and realize there are more students than there are high paying jobs.

Schadenfreude is the sweetest revenge.

 

[sourdoughllama]

I think pre-meds are hated as much as actual Lawyers, and pre-law students are as much the life of the party/cool guy in the room as an actual physician. Pre-law students are more chill and less on edge than pre-meds, and there is a reason for it.

Why? because it doesn't take very much talent to get into law school compared with that which you need to get into medical school. I'm pretty sure there was a thread about this at somepoint showing the GPA/MCAT/acceptance rate for the top 20 medical schools vs. the GPA/LSAT/acceprance rate for the top 20 or so law schools. It ended up being like an average of 2% or so acceptance rate for medical schools being looked at vs. 25-30% acceptance rate for the law schools that were being looked at. It drives me to the point of white hot rage when my pre-law friends complain about how hard they need to work to get into law school. I am not the person to cry to about hard work to, lol.

True dat. I love that most pre meds on here are in denial that being a gunner is so common place. This is why people hate pre-meds so much. We're all part-gunner.

Also, pre-T14 law are 100% as annoying as pre-meds

 

[darkjedi]

ugh lawyers/law students are the worst

some are nice though

 

[ChEMD]

I don't think people universally hate pre-meds for working very hard (and the ones that do are really just upset because they aren't doing as well). I thought it was more of the stereotype that involved the pre-meds that fight for every last point on their exams even if they don't deserve it.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with hard work, and just because you aren't as motivated as some people doesn't mean you should use derogatory terms to define them. People don't like the word gunner because it has such a negative tone behind it. It is not synonymous with a hard-worker and the only people that use it as such are the ones that wish they had the motivation and discipline to work as hard as the people that they label a gunner.

 

[sourdoughllama]

.

 

[baconshrimps]

ugh lawyers/law students are the worst

some are nice though

Another manifestation of what I posted before, albeit perhaps more subjective, is that a lot of the dumb kids I knew in HS, ended up going to Law School. Some of the brighter minds in my high school eventually went into business, finance, or medicine. Even more subjective - I'm on a dating site and I swear to god every marginally attractive but sort of rough around the edges woman I run into on that dating site is either in law school or went to law school. I seldom see anyone in med school / who graduated from med school, though they do occaisonally come up. Just goes to show that there is a smaller sample size of pre-med/med than pre-law/law, and for a reason. Medical school is harder to get into than Law school.

 

[ChEMD]

Speak for yourself. I graduated with honors from a top 25 and I use the word gunner for over-the-top try hards

I think you just proved my point. Yes, you may have graduated with honors, but you use the word gunner to define people who tried harder than you. Who are you to judge someone else for working as hard as they can? Is there some pre-determined level of effort that you are allowed to put in after which you will be made fun of?

 

[gregoryhouse]

In my experience, people tend to call anyone who is doing exceptionally well in class a gunner.
Which is annoying, imo, because doing well should be looked up upon.

The definitions you used in OP are what I would actually consider a gunner, someone who intentionally harms others to get ahead.

 

[gregoryhouse]

I think you just proved my point. Yes, you may have graduated with honors, but you use the word gunner to define people who tried harder than you. Who are you to judge someone else for working as hard as they can? Is there some pre-determined level of effort that you are allowed to put in after which you will be made fun of?

Exactly.

To me when I hear this, "So and so is a total gunner." What I actually translate it to is, "So and so works a lot harder than me or is just naturally smarter than me so I better make fun of them to feel better about myself."

 

[sourdoughllama]

I think you just proved my point. Yes, you may have graduated with honors, but you use the word gunner to define people who tried harder than you. Who are you to judge someone else for working as hard as they can? Is there some pre-determined level of effort that you are allowed to put in after which you will be made fun of?

It doesn't quite work that way. Everyone at my school worked harder than me. This thread is about personal definitions. If you don't agree with my definition, that's fine, but don't make assumptions about me. I'm a lazy mofo, but I have my **** together. So no, I'm not mad at people who work harder than me because that would mean everyone.

 

[baconshrimps]

Exactly.

To me when I hear this, "So and so is a total gunner." What I actually translate it to is, "So and so works a lot harder than me or is just naturally smarter than me so I better make fun of them to feel better about myself."

@baconshrimps - exhibits A-Z on the hate front. Too many haters coming my way. I've never tried to stand in the way of anyones success, so it's kind of offensive when people try to drag me down by villifying mine. Again, I don't take "gunner" offensively because I realize most people are freaking clueless, but there are other ways people like to hate - people have gone so far as to tell professors that I am a complete sociopath and thats the only reason why I'm able to achieve what I've achieved. (I'm currently in a very small, closely knit graduate program....so the professors and students talk alot.) Someone kicked a student out of their office because they were talking trash about me and that professor happened to be my mentor, bahahahahaha.

 

[TonySoprano]

Gunners are condescending, they won't shut up about the possible residency they are going to get when finished with medical school and sabotage other students to benefit themselves. Also, they won't help classmates who request help out of a sense of competition. There aren't many of them out there(or atleast not at my school). People who work hard should not be ridiculed. Working hard is not gunner. I hate the term gunner.

 

[ChEMD]

It doesn't quite work that way. Everyone at my school worked harder than me. This thread is about personal definitions. If you don't agree with my definition, that's fine, but don't make assumptions about me. I'm a lazy mofo, but I have my **** together. So no, I'm not mad at people who work harder than me because that would mean everyone.

You're right, it's just a word, so anyone can define it however they want really. But what you said definitely brings up an interesting point: why would you or anyone else be proud of being lazy?

 

[sourdoughllama]

You're right, it's just a word, so anyone can define it however they want really. But what you said definitely brings up an interesting point: why would you or anyone else be proud of being lazy?

I didn't say I'm proud (but I'm not ashamed), that's just something I know to be true about me

 

[crimsonkid85]

You're right, it's just a word, so anyone can define it however they want really. But what you said definitely brings up an interesting point: why would you or anyone else be proud of being lazy?

Interestingly, the gentrification of industriousness is a relatively recent thing from a historical perspective. For much of human history, only the wealthiest class could afford to be lazy. Thus, to be able to have nothing to do was a thing to be coveted.

 

[Microglia]

Dude that's not gunning, that's medical admissions, you are competing with someone, it could even be the person next to you.

IMO, you can't consider someone a gunner unless there is an intentional act of sabotage.

Eh I'd say withholding help from someone if asked is almost as bad as sabotaging them, still gunning in my book.

 

[baconshrimps]

Eh I'd say withholding help from someone if asked is almost as bad as sabotaging them, still gunning in my book.

bull. How altruistic do you have to be in this game? Daddy's gotta take care of himself first.

 

[Espadaleader]

Gunning is someone that sabotages ppl or tries to "play off" that they work hard. Yo, I really don't like the latter. Those ppl that be like "Oh, yeah, the test is coming up and I ain't study". Yeah right dude, I SAW YOU in the library studying for 12 hours straight. Stop frontin. Also not humble ppl. I know ppl that study 40 hours a week, have all the bittorrent textbooks and are smarter than all of us and the are the coolest ppl, are humble, and don't like to brag. They're cool. Those are those hardcore bookworm ppl. I respect that. The gunners are those ppl that brag about studying 20 hours a week but really study for 40, those ppl that are all in your business about what YOU got on your exam, those ppl that will ditch their best friend at the airport to get 2 points on an exam.

 

[nOchemallday]

I've always just used the Harvard Medical School's definition:

 

[Law2Doc]

There are hundreds of threads on the meaning of gunner. The OP didn't need to start a new one, and premeds on SDN aren't going to redefine the term. A gunner is a person who compromises relationships to get ahead professionally. It is not the person who just works hard and does well. In fact a gunner might not work particularly hard and might never be toward the top of his class. It not the guy who studies to get A's, it's the guy who tries to make it harder for his classmates to do better than him. In short, a jerk. You don't want to be a Gunner.

now there are people here and elsewhere who throw the term around as a joking pejorative, "oh he's such a gunner", as an antonym for "slacker", much like a few decades ago you might call someone a "fascist" or a "commie" -- you don't really mean that in the definitional sense. That's what's being adopted in these videos here -- the playful mis-use of the term. But a real gunner is not this. It's the guy who wants to be the top if his class not by studying hard but by causing everyone else in the class to do poorly.

You usually dont see who is the gunner in your med school class until the clinical years of med school. He's the guy who reads up on your patients to make it look like you don't know your patients very well on rounds. If you give a presentation he's the guy who asks hard questions you can't answer, just to undermine you. He's the guy who is quick to volunteer you for unsavory jobs -- have Bobby do that DRE -- I did one last week. In law school it was the guy who ripped the pages out of a book on reserve in the library so half the class couldn't complete an assignment. So basically nobody you'd want to emulate.

 

[swolebrah]

I have noticed to a lot of people who say working really hard is gunning, when in reality gunning is working in a way to ruin others for your own success. There is a huge difference between breathing and living for success and having a huge insecurity in which you believe you need to hurt others for your own well being.

 

[Psai]

The reason for why the word keeps being used incorrectly is that the actual gunners talk smack about people who work hard and call them gunners. The real gunners go out of their way to sabotage people for their own benefit or to screw other people over and make them look bad.

 

[ZeaL6]

If gunners were really gunning they would know teaching is a reinforcement of their own knowledge, and would therefore be willing to help everyone.... stupid gunners...

 

[sourdoughllama]

I have noticed to a lot of people who say working really hard is gunning, when in reality gunning is working in a way to ruin others for your own success. There is a huge difference between breathing and living for success and having a huge insecurity in which you believe you need to hurt others for your own well being.

The reason for why the word keeps being used incorrectly is that the actual gunners talk smack about people who work hard and call them gunners. The real gunners go out of their way to sabotage people for their own benefit or to screw other people over and make them look bad.

Unless you have a Merriam-Webster dictionary definition to back those claims (you can't because it's slang), don't call other people's opinions incorrect. You can have your definition but you can't say others are wrong.

 

[Spitphire]

@baconshrimps - exhibits A-Z on the hate front. Too many haters coming my way. I've never tried to stand in the way of anyones success, so it's kind of offensive when people try to drag me down by villifying mine. Again, I don't take "gunner" offensively because I realize most people are freaking clueless, but there are other ways people like to hate - people have gone so far as to tell professors that I am a complete sociopath and thats the only reason why I'm able to achieve what I've achieved. (I'm currently in a very small, closely knit graduate program....so the professors and students talk alot.) Someone kicked a student out of their office because they were talking trash about me and that professor happened to be my mentor, bahahahahaha.

That's insane. Kudos to you for not taking it personally.

 

[Microglia]

Every time I see that picture I just want to punch that kid in the face and break his stupid glasses.

Lol. I'm guessing that the quote is supposed to be funny/not srs.

 

[DokterMom]

Good point. The term 'gunner' is ambiguous, and I would agree that we need some new terms to distinguish the industrious from the malicious. How about:

• 'Sniper' (unambiguously derogatory) for those who would deliberately sabotage others in order to succeed themselves, and
  
• 'Iron Man' (clearly a compliment, unisex, as in the triathlon) for those who are incredibly hard workers and willing to help others who are willing to work

I'd suggest we still need a third term for those who are hyper-competive and who do not care to help others but are not overtly malicious

Edit:

• How about 'Comet' for the third type? Part ice, on a fast trajectory, oblivious to anything in its path. Can cause damage, but doesn't actively seek to.

 

[sourdoughllama]

Good point. The term 'gunner' is ambiguous, and I would agree that we need some new terms to distinguish the industrious from the malicious. How about:

• 'Sniper' (unambiguously derogatory) for those who would deliberately sabotage others in order to succeed themselves, and
  
• 'Iron Man' (clearly a compliment, unisex, as in the triathlon) for those who are incredibly hard workers and not unwilling to help others who are willing to work

I'd suggest we still need a third term for those who are hyper-competive and who do not care to help others but are not overtly malicious

Awesome break down IMO. I agree these three different types of people can be called gunners by different people. I call "snipers" and "#3" gunners

 

[Psai]

Unless you have a Merriam-Webster dictionary definition to back those claims (you can't because it's slang), don't call other people's opinions incorrect. You can have your definition but you can't say others are wrong.

Uh yes I can. Your opinion is wrong. See how easy it is? And it's not my personal definition but a definition that's been used for years. In any case the word should be a pejorative for those who actually deserve to be scorned, not for the people who work hard and deserve to do well.

 

[sourdoughllama]

Uh yes I can. Your opinion is wrong. See how easy it is? And it's not my personal definition but a definition that's been used for years. In any case the word should be a pejorative for those who actually deserve to be scorned, not for the people who work hard and deserve to do well.

Way to be immature

 

[knv2u]

ugh lawyers/law students are the worst

some are nice though

What? They're not that bad. Just be careful if your wife is a lawyer if she is well versed in divorce law (i.e. alimony and equitable distribution).

 

[baconshrimps]

Every time I see that picture I just want to punch that kid in the face and break his stupid glasses.

Okay srsly, who wears a tux for their yearbook photo? What a loser.

 

[knv2u]

Also what is so special about dermatology that makes it so competitive? Is it just because the pay is good?

The average work week is about 45 hours long, and the average pay is in the $400-$500k range or so. So, high pay with less work and more time for family, hobbies, etc., = more applicants = more selective/competitive residency.

 

[username456789]

Also what is so special about dermatology that makes it so competitive? Is it just because the pay is good?

It's because we're all good looking people, and by virtue of matching into Dermatology, we ensure that on a daily basis we're surrounded by other equally non-hideous individuals.

 

[username456789]

The average work week is about 45 hours long, and the average pay is in the $400-$500k range or so. So, high pay with less work and more time for family, hobbies, etc., = more applicants = more selective/competitive residency.

wut