Lieberman Suspended

[Mass Effect]

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Yes some things should absolutely be off limits for discourse. We should all work to only engage in “right speech”.

I mean, you can do whatever you want in your personal life. Freedom and all. But if you don't want to end up like Lieberman, I'd advise anyone not to use words like slut in a professional context or on a professional social media account. 100%.

 

[Mass Effect]

The ignorant part is being unaware that these once slurs have been reclaimed and are used with positive connotations in certain contexts by a good number of people. The dismissive part is implying that they are childish or stupid for doing so.

You're free to have your opinion as I have mine.

 

[Marasmus1]

So does this mean I can not call giannis greek freak anymore?

 

[nexus73]

I mean, you can do whatever you want in your personal life. Freedom and all. But if you don't want to end up like Lieberman, I'd advise anyone not to use words like slut in a professional context or on a professional social media account. 100%.

We're just talking on a message board

 

[Mass Effect]

We're just talking on a message board

I'm aware. The reason we're discussing slut was because we were drawing a comparison between Leiberman's faux pas and using terms like slut on a professional account.

Many posts ago, I said: "Slut is not a term of endearment and never will be in my book. And I don't expect to see the Chair of Psychiatry anywhere using it as such without repercussions."

"In my book" specifically refers to my own opinion. You're free to use whatever term you want of course. My opinion is that it is not a term of endearment due to its historical context and significant offense when used against women. I don't subscribe to "reclaiming" movements, either for this or other words. I find the term to be very insulting and degrading. That's my opinion. My opinion can't hurt you. What can hurt you is the second part of my quote above and that is that if you post it or say it in professional circles, like Lieberman, you will likely face similar repercussions, regardless of the excuse that it's a "term of endearment".

 

[nexus73]

I feel like this will never end. Duty Calls

 

[WisNeuro]

I was referring to the term slut in a general sense, not necessarily professional.

 

[tr]

The ignorant part is being unaware that these once slurs have been reclaimed and are used with positive connotations in certain contexts by a good number of people. The dismissive part is implying that they are childish or stupid for doing so.

That still doesn't mean that people outside the specific communities that have done the reclaiming are free to use the without repercussion.

Black Americans may call each other the n-word as a term of endearment or whatever. That doesn't mean the rest of us are free to go ahead and use that word in that way, or any way we want, and then be surprised when people are offended.

So it goes for queer, slut, etc. Just because a term may have been reclaimed by the community in question (usually in certain specific contexts) doesn't thereby 'unload' it indiscriminately across all users.

 

[whopper]

So does this mean I can not call giannis greek freak anymore?

Possibly and I'm not being sarcastic or trying to play this off.

Culture changes and what's on a recorded forum could possibly stay up forever. People have been fired for saying something years ago that even in the context of that era was socially acceptable. One could also say something racy without bad intent, it's apparent it's without bad intent but someone hypersensitive or with the agenda to destroy the first person intentionally blow it out of proportion.

That's why some people advise to not put up ANYTHING outside of neutral content.

Oberlin College, a bakery worker stops someone from shoplifting and without any evidence of racism the bakery is accused of such, vandalized, and faculty were proven on record to make comments with intent to vilify the bakery and anyone that tried to stand up to the protests including other Oberlin faculty despite that investigations don't show any support that incident was provoked by racism.

Gibson's Bakery v. Oberlin College - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dean Raimondo reacted to Professor Copeland's statement in a private text message, "**** him. I'd say unleash the students if I wasn't convinced this needs to be put behind us."

You can and likely at some point in the future trigger someone who will see you as their next personal "Hitler."
I'm not saying you should live your life in such a manner but with your own profession possibly at stake you think about it on your own and make your own decisions.

 

[whopper]

Black Americans may call each other the n-word as a term of endearment or whatever. That doesn't mean the rest of us are free to go ahead and use that word in that way, or any way we want, and then be surprised when people are offended.

Back in the late 90s the N-word was being used more and more, possibly being spread around by gangster rap and a new prison culture that infiltrated urban culture.

It got to the point where lots of African-Americans were using the term very openly. Lots of people I knew were were Caucasian with several African-American friends were even told it was okay for that person (but not other Whites) to use the N-word.

Then the Michael Richards incident happened.

Then all of a sudden no Caucasian could say the word.

Dave Chappelle's racist and sexist jokes? They're okay cause he's African American. If a Caucasian guy says it-not okay. Except with his last Netflix show. Now all of a sudden now he can't say any racy content anymore.

There's no standardized arbiter of what's allowed. Oprah Winfrey was allowed to give details of oral sex on her show without consequence but Howard Stern got fined multiple times for saying the same content.

Culture changes, is random and there's no standardized arbitration minus a person being offended.

 

[Stagg737]

That still doesn't mean that people outside the specific communities that have done the reclaiming are free to use the without repercussion.

Black Americans may call each other the n-word as a term of endearment or whatever. That doesn't mean the rest of us are free to go ahead and use that word in that way, or any way we want, and then be surprised when people are offended.

So it goes for queer, slut, etc. Just because a term may have been reclaimed by the community in question (usually in certain specific contexts) doesn't thereby 'unload' it indiscriminately across all users.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that they’re positive words that can be used indiscriminately. The previous argument was that the word could not possibly be used in a positive way, which is a pretty ridiculous level of absolutism.

 

[WisNeuro]

That still doesn't mean that people outside the specific communities that have done the reclaiming are free to use the without repercussion.

Black Americans may call each other the n-word as a term of endearment or whatever. That doesn't mean the rest of us are free to go ahead and use that word in that way, or any way we want, and then be surprised when people are offended.

So it goes for queer, slut, etc. Just because a term may have been reclaimed by the community in question (usually in certain specific contexts) doesn't thereby 'unload' it indiscriminately across all users.

Indeed, and I never claimed as such. My argument was directed at the comment that some of these terms had absolutely no positive connotation, followed by the denigration of those communities who do use the terms in a positive way.

 

[pazzer2]

I call your attention to the Columbia University Faculty Handbook, Appendix B: Dismissal Procedures

Appendix B

g. Suspensions:
1. Until final decision has been reached, the officer of instruction shall not be suspended from his or her duties, or assigned to other duties, unless immediate harm to himself or herself or others is threatened by continuance of his or her normal service.
2. The decision as to whether immediate harm is threatened shall be made by the President of the University, but not until after he or she has consulted the Faculty Affairs Committee. A suspension can be effected only by the President or his or her duly authorized representative. An interim suspension, as provided in Section 75g(1), while the case is being decided, shall be with pay. A suspension imposed as a penalty short of dismissal, as provided in Section 75e(10), shall be without pay.

It looks to me as if the CU administration has already started the process to get rid of Lieberman. I assume that he is a tenured professor. If that is the case, it doesn't look good. From what I'm hearing Lieberman has pissed off a lot of people over the years. The twitter incident was the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[Mass Effect]

I don’t think anyone is arguing that they’re positive words that can be used indiscriminately. The previous argument was that the word could not possibly be used in a positive way, which is a pretty ridiculous level of absolutism.

Dude, I mentioned professional context several times. Yes it's my opinion that it cannot be used in a positive way. But that is my personal opinion. I didn't say the person on the street best not use that word. I said I don't believe it's a positive word or term of endearment and no one will convince me otherwise (my opinion which I am fully allowed to have) given its historic uses. I then said, in reference to Lieberman which is why it was brought up int he first place that I don't expect anyone in a professional context to ever use that word without repercussions. Ironically, the whole intent of it being brought up is to suggest that just like Lieberman used "freak of nature", I'd expect the same consequences out of someone using "slut" in professional circles but people totally disregarded that part and instead focused on my opinion that the word "slut" is not a positive word or term of endearment. To me, there are certain words that I will never see as positive or terms of endearment. Slut is one. The n word is another. Nazi is another. The c word is another. People are free to call each other these things all they want. Like I said, freedom and all. But my opinion is that these are not positive words and if you use them in a professional context in reference to someone else, expect to end up like Lieberman.

 

[docksan]

I've hesitated to comment on this because I'm in the group that thinks his comments were in extremely poor taste, but also of the belief that "freak of nature" doesn't necessarily carry a negative connotation just by its existence. It has multiple accepted uses.

The simplistic absolutism is going to kill society one day as subtlety and nuance are lost to the mob.

That being said, he had plenty of opportunity to realize and rectify his problem and chose not to.

 

[Mass Effect]

It looks to me as if the CU administration has already started the process to get rid of Lieberman. I assume that he is a tenured professor. If that is the case, it doesn't look good. From what I'm hearing Lieberman has pissed off a lot of people over the years. The twitter incident was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Everyone keeps saying this, but no one has pointed to any specific incidents so I have to wonder if someone said it on social/article and everyone else picked up on it and made it fact?

 

[pazzer2]

Everyone keeps saying this, but no one has pointed to any specific incidents so I have to wonder if someone said it on social/article and everyone else picked up on it and made it fact?

My sources are confidential, so I can't publicly name them here. But they are high level within CU administration. They all say the same thing. If you look through the twitter tirade, there are several current CU faculty members who chimed in. None of them were in the Dept of Psychiatry, but its not a good look when peer medical school faculty start throwing stones in a public forum.

 

[Mass Effect]

My sources are confidential, so I can't publicly name them here. But they are high level within CU administration. They all say the same thing. If you look through the twitter tirade, there are several current CU faculty members who chimed in. None of them were in the Dept of Psychiatry, but its not a good look when peer medical school faculty start throwing stones in a public forum.

I'm not saying you're lying at all. I'm sure you are hearing this. Many others are too. I'm just saying since no one can point to specific examples, it makes me wonder if this is an urban legend type rumor that was started, maybe even at the school. Or maybe not. It's just interesting that usually with this type of rumor, people have examples ready to go but in this case everyone says the same thing but no one can point to any evidence of it or even tell stories of it without anything other than generalizations through the grapevine.

 

[Mad Jack]

One can honestly argue Lieberman should've been fired. I get it. There's such a thing as disagreeing but finding other person's argument sound, intellectually honest, and based on valid tenets. I respect someone criticizing racism who never did anything racist in all of it's varying degrees subtle to extreme.

What I don't get is Lieberman being fired but nothing happening to the Wizard. I find it odd to say the least when a racist starts complaining about racism, or in the Wizard's case, which is in the extreme, selling supplements based on fraudulent claims, making idiotic comments such as kids being in school and possibly dying as "appetizing" and putting people on his show as honored guests who've been proven to be quacks, doing so time and time again for years.

And now he's running for office based on all of the BS he has peddled before, which Columbia enabled

 

[Salpingo]

Everyone keeps saying this, but no one has pointed to any specific incidents so I have to wonder if someone said it on social/article and everyone else picked up on it and made it fact?

Coming in late to this conversation, but his book "Shrinks" took on psychodynamic psychotherapy in a way that alienated many members of his own department. He wrote up the history of psychoanalysis in a way that was almost spiteful, vindictive and unnecessarily divisive. Meanwhile, biological psychiatrists were treated as heroes leading us into a miraculous future. When people pointed out his mistakes or overstatements, he didn't just dismiss the criticism, but doubled down. You can be critical of the field, but then be even handed, especially if you want to be an ambassador to the public.

This belief that he's an infallible representative of the best of psychiatry seems to have been his downfall. He led the CATIE trial, which was a nice proof of concept that large scale psychopharmacology trials were possible, but then seemed to transition into this spokesperson role, urging the public to see psychiatrists as white coat physician scientists like him. If he wants to do PR, that's his choice, but he clearly lacks some communication skills and he's not unanimously viewed as some model. There are people doing incredible work at Columbia (Lisa Dixon and Helen Simpson are two that come to mind) who are much less divisive, present as humble and thoughtful, and represent psychiatry in a much better light. They also don't strike me as people who feel an urge to weigh in on models skin tone on social media. You can argue if the consequence was proportional to the offense, but there are reasons people aren't running to his defense beyond fear of "cancel culture."