List of schools with significant need based aid

[godawg300]

So I would like to start a comprehensive thread for schools that offer significant need based aid. I'm compiling this from places I interviewed at that discussed how their aid works. If people want to add to the list, I think it would be very useful. Most of these schools use the unit loan model that I think really helps people that come from lower SES.


Mt. Sinai
Emory
Yale
Harvard
Stanford
Cornell
Dartmouth

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[nope1955]

Mt. Sinai
Emory
Yale
Harvard
Stanford
Cornell
Dartmouth
Hopkins

 

[rkoiballer]

Mt. Sinai
Emory
Yale
Harvard
Stanford
Cornell
Dartmouth
Hopkins
Pritzker
Vanderbilt
Mayo
Georgetown
Penn
Michigan
NYU

 

[hellanutella]

Awesome idea, but maybe this list would be more useful if the unit loan amount were included? I know some of these schools can have pretty low average indebtedness, but that may be in part to their ability to hand out hefty merit scholarships (ex: Pritzker, Vandy, Penn, WashU).

Mt. Sinai – unit loan: $31,000
Emory
Yale
Harvard
Stanford
Cornell – unit loan: $31,897, as per interview day Weill only offers need-based aid
Dartmouth
Hopkins – unit loan can range from $20-25K
Pritzker
Vanderbilt – offers 75% scholarships to 75% of the incoming class, debt distribution from the class of 2013
Mayo
Georgetown
Penn
Michigan
NYU

Edit: woah nellie. Hit the 1K mark. Cheers to you, SDN; thanks for being such an awesome procrastination device for the past 3+ years.

 

[meowfish6868]

Mt. Sinai – unit loan: $31,000
Emory
Yale
Harvard
Stanford
Cornell – unit loan: $31,897, as per interview day Weill only offers need-based aid
Dartmouth - unit loan: $37,000, remaining financial need met with scholarship funds, per the interview day and their financial aid website.
Hopkins – unit loan can range from $20-25K
Pritzker
Vanderbilt – offers 75% scholarships to 75% of the incoming class, debt distribution from the class of 2013
Mayo
Georgetown
Penn
Michigan
NYU

 

[breakintheroof]

(I'm not sure what the parameters are here. But I guess we'll see where this goes. Alphabetized and added a couple of sources.)

Cornell – unit loan: $31,897, as per interview day Weill only offers need-based aid
Dartmouth – unit loan: $37,000, remaining financial need met with scholarship funds, per the interview day and their financial aid website.
Emory
Georgetown
Harvard – unit loan: $30,400
Johns Hopkins – unit loan can range from $20-25K
Mayo
Michigan
Mount Sinai – unit loan: $31,000
NYU
Penn – approximately 35 full-tuition scholarships
Pritzker – some merit scholarships offered ($180K, $200K, full-tuition) at acceptance
Stanford – need based aid and significant funding to students for research and teaching
Vanderbilt – offers 75% scholarships to 75% of the incoming class, debt distribution from the class of 2013
Yale – unit loan: $26,000

 

[OscarWao]

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[OscarWao]

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[sazerac]

Cornell – unit loan: $31,897, as per interview day Weill only offers need-based aid
Dartmouth – unit loan: $37,000, remaining financial need met with scholarship funds, per the interview day and their financial aid website.
Emory
Georgetown
Harvard – unit loan: $30,400
Johns Hopkins – unit loan can range from $20-25K
Mayo
Michigan
Mount Sinai – unit loan: $31,000
NYU
Penn – approximately 35 full-tuition scholarships
Pritzker – some merit scholarships offered ($180K, $200K, full-tuition) at acceptance
Stanford – need based aid and significant funding to students for research and teaching
Tulane - about a quarter of the class does not pay full retail
Vanderbilt – offers 75% scholarships to 75% of the incoming class, debt distribution from the class of 2013
Yale – unit loan: $26,000

 

[hellanutella]

"if you are an orphan without any assets, you still have to take out the unit loan every year"

Pretty much every decent school can offer you enough loans to get you through. Loans don't make schools attractive to low-income students. Grants make schools attractive to low-income students. Particularly need based grants! Order of importance to low income students

1. Need based grants and need based scholarships
2. Need based loans (usually with lower interest rates or heavily subsidized by the institution aka institutional loans)
3. Merit based loans (also institutional loans that have lower interest or are subsidized)
4. Loans offered to everyone (unit loan)

I think it would be more helpful if we could list the amount of need based grants (or need based loans) that schools give out. That information is surprisingly difficult to find. For example:

Stanford: Has three tiers of need based grants:
1. Full tuition grant given to max of 12 students per entering class ($16,905 per quarter)
2. Graded grant with a max of $11,500 per quarter
3. Middle Income Assistance Program (MIAP): $5, 750 per quarter (but your parents have to match the same amount)

As a low-income student, I could read that about Stanford and see that it would be a great place to go to medical school because I would almost definitely get my full tuition waived if I got in. It would be great if we could refocus this thread in that direction. If we can't, I can start a new thread. Let me know what you all think!

(p.s. I don't know how to propagate the links in breakintheroof's last post so that's why I haven't added my thing about stanford to the list.)

@breakintheroof @meowfish6868 @hellanutella @rkoiballer @nope1955 @godawg300

No, that's an excellent point @OscarWao! That info is super important and now I'm even more heartbroken I never got a shot at Stanford.

Unfortunately, I had a very hard time rustling up info on need-based aid, which is why I included the unit loan info. At most unit loan-ed schools, whatever is outside of the unit loan + EFC is covered by a scholarship, so someone with an EFC of $0 could easily calculate their minimum debt coming from that school. Obviously, at a place with a unit loan of $25K, you'd be leaving $100K in debt... which in the grand scheme of things is not all that bad, but definitely not ideal compared to a full-tuition waiver.

It also seems like at many of the schools which offer some full-tuition scholarships (not "full ride"), everything outside of the COA (room, food, insurance, transportation, etc.) is still left up to the applicant to pay. 🙁 Depending on the location, a low-income student could be looking at taking $15-25K/year out in loans, even with their scholarship... which is effectively the same as some of the students at a unit loan-ed school.

tl;dr: med school costs a lot and I wish there was more support for low SES folks. 🙁 At the end of the day average graduating debt and loan vs. scholarship distribution may be your best metric for gauging how well a school can financially support its students... outside of looking at your actual finaid packages.

 

[Flintwire]

Another thing to keep in mind is that many scholarships/grants are tuition restricted.

That means they can ONLY be applied towards tuition. So if your school's tuition is $40,000 and they give you $25,000 in scholarship money - and then you rustle up a $20,000 scholarship on your own - if they were both tuition restricted scholarships, one of those scholarships would have to be cut by $5,000 so you don't go over tuition. You CANNOT apply a tuition restricted grant/scholarship to anything else in the COA.

@hellanutella I've seen that loan vs. scholarship chart, but it doesn't give info on how much the average student actually receives in scholarship money. They could get $5000 (nothing to sneeze at, but not even close to significantly impacting the COA at most schools), and still be included in the percentage of those receiving scholarships. That's why you have schools with stats like Mayo: 100% receive grants/scholarships ... but 48% still need to take out loans.

 

[Amba]

I think it would be more helpful if we could list the amount of need based grants (or need based loans) that schools give out. That information is surprisingly difficult to find.

Agreed. Figuring out which schools give out generous need-based grants is much more useful, imo.

On a related not, why NYU is on the current list is baffling for me. I was offered $0 in need-based grants from them. My estimated debt was >$320K. The school I matriculated at is giving me $25-30K in need-based grants each year.

 

[OscarWao]

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[OscarWao]

• .

 

[GoPelicans]

U Iowa offered me 40K/year in financial aid grants last year as an OOS ORM with 3.7 35 and significant financial need (single parent, <40K household income, etc). It was by far the highest any school offered me.

 

[raiderette]

On a related not, why NYU is on the current list is baffling for me. I was offered $0 in need-based grants from them. My estimated debt was >$320K. The school I matriculated at is giving me $25-30K in need-based grants each year.

Looks like NYU med is as bad as NYU undergrad. They are known for being horrible with merit and need-based aid. Their solution is to offer parent loans to people who don't seem to understand the ramifications.

 

[OscarWao]

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[madeintheusa]

Yale – unit loan: $26,000

Thanks for compiling this info! I was just wondering - what's the source for Yale's unit loan? I clicked the link but it appears to be broken.

 

[breakintheroof]

Thanks for compiling this info! I was just wondering - what's the source for Yale's unit loan? I clicked the link but it appears to be broken.

Hmmm, looks like I botched the hyperlink. Here it is, the unit loan is indeed $26,000:

http://medicine.yale.edu/education/finaid/md_program/2014.aspx

Also, I missed some developments on this thread, looks like @OscarWao, @hellanutella, @Flintwire and others had a great and informative discussion (edit; had accidentally scrambled this sentence). I wish there were more and clearer information available to applicants about financial aid before the process. For many, the reality becomes clear only long after their school lists are set, which is not optimal.

Maybe we can add some info to the Med Schools: In Summary document? Or is there a better way?
_________________________________________
Here's the list with the corrected Yale link:

• Cornell – unit loan: $31,897, as per interview day Weill only offers need-based aid
• Dartmouth – unit loan: $37,000, remaining financial need met with scholarship funds, per the interview day and their financial aid website.
• Harvard – unit loan: $30,400; average debt of 2014 graduates $103,937 (page 34 of guidebook)
• Johns Hopkins – unit loan can range from $20-25K
• Mount Sinai – unit loan: $31,000
• Penn – approximately 35 full-tuition scholarships
• Pritzker – some merit scholarships offered ($180K, $200K, full-tuition) at acceptance
• Stanford – only offers need based aid and has significant funding to students for research and teaching
  • Stanford has three tiers of need based grants:
    • 1. Full tuition grant given to max of 12 students per entering class ($16,905 per quarter)
    • 2. Graded grant with a max of $11,500 per quarter
    • 3. Middle Income Assistance Program (MIAP): $5, 750 per quarter (but your parents have to match the same amount)
  • You can also get $15-18,000 second year if you are hired as a teaching assistant to first years (~40/80 are hired).
• Tulane - about a quarter of the class does not pay full retail
• Vanderbilt – offers 75% scholarships to 75% of the incoming class, debt distribution from the class of 2013
• Yale – unit loan: $26,000

 

[mehc012]

Why did Mayo fall off the list? Was that intentional, or accidental?

 

[madeintheusa]

Just called Yale's financial aid office and they said that the unit loan for the 2015-2016 school year will increase slightly to $27,000. Still one of the lowest unit loans I've seen!
_________________________________________

• Cornell – unit loan: $31,897, as per interview day Weill only offers need-based aid
• Dartmouth – unit loan: $37,000, remaining financial need met with scholarship funds, per the interview day and their financial aid website.
• Harvard – unit loan: $30,400
• Johns Hopkins – unit loan can range from $20-25K
• Mount Sinai – unit loan: $31,000
• Penn – approximately 35 full-tuition scholarships
• Pritzker – some merit scholarships offered ($180K, $200K, full-tuition) at acceptance
• Stanford – only offers need based aid and has significant funding to students for research and teaching
  • Stanford has three tiers of need based grants:
    • 1. Full tuition grant given to max of 12 students per entering class ($16,905 per quarter)
    • 2. Graded grant with a max of $11,500 per quarter
    • 3. Middle Income Assistance Program (MIAP): $5, 750 per quarter (but your parents have to match the same amount)
  • You can also get $15-18,000 second year if you are hired as a teaching assistant to first years (~40/80 are hired).
• Tulane - about a quarter of the class does not pay full retail
• Vanderbilt – offers 75% scholarships to 75% of the incoming class, debt distribution from the class of 2013
• Yale – unit loan: $26,000 ($27,000 for 2015-2016)

 

[breakintheroof]

Why did Mayo fall off the list? Was that intentional, or accidental?

Hmmm. Perhaps it was removed due to the discussion about how many of their students receive loans despite near-ubiquitous grants. But definitely still a school that provides lots of aid! Should be on the list.
_________________________________________

• Cornell – unit loan: $31,897, as per interview day Weill only offers need-based aid
• Dartmouth – unit loan: $37,000, remaining financial need met with scholarship funds, per the interview day and their financial aid website.
• Harvard – unit loan: $30,400
• Johns Hopkins – unit loan can range from $20-25K
• Mayo
• Mount Sinai – unit loan: $31,000
• Penn – approximately 35 full-tuition scholarships
• Pritzker – some merit scholarships offered ($180K, $200K, full-tuition) at acceptance
• Stanford – only offers need based aid and has significant funding to students for research and teaching
  • Stanford has three tiers of need based grants:
    • 1. Full tuition grant given to max of 12 students per entering class ($16,905 per quarter)
    • 2. Graded grant with a max of $11,500 per quarter
    • 3. Middle Income Assistance Program (MIAP): $5, 750 per quarter (but your parents have to match the same amount)
  • You can also get $15-18,000 second year if you are hired as a teaching assistant to first years (~40/80 are hired).
• Tulane - about a quarter of the class does not pay full retail
• Vanderbilt – offers 75% scholarships to 75% of the incoming class, debt distribution from the class of 2013
• Yale – unit loan: $26,000 ($27,000 for 2015-2016)

 

[hellanutella]

Excellent info. Thanks for the bump, @breakintheroof!

Now that I've been through a little bit more of the finaid process and am not speaking from total naivety like before, I now truly understand what @OscarWao was talking about. The finaid process can be wildly difficult to predict and unit-loaned schools can still leave you with a mountain of debt, especially if you cannot match a school's calculated EFC. I come from a middle-income family and have been fortunate enough to have accrued some savings, so I can only imagine the pressure the finaid process places upon low SES students or those with wealthy, un-supportive families. 🙁

It is so so difficult to find a metric by which a school's finaid policies can be judged. The unit loan is an appealing parameter, but it was interesting for me to find that I got better need-based aid from Northwestern (a unit loan-less school) than Sinai (a school with a 30K unit loan). It's a great component of the finaid puzzle to look at, but by no means a predictor for the best need-based aid.

The average graduating debt measurement is also an alluring metric, but then again... it does not tell the full picture. For example, the graduating class of 2013 at UCF had only $13K in debt - the second lowest nationwide! However, this was the school's inaugural class and every student received a full ride. Likewise, since Case Western and CCLCM's information are apparently lumped together, I wonder how much the extremely low CCLCM debt deflates Case's overall numbers.

tl;dr: I wish there was an easy way to do this, but I suppose the best you can do is wait out the finaid process with all your accepted schools and see how things play out. You may be surprised (hopefully positively!) by what you get.

 

[breakintheroof]

tl;dr: I wish there was an easy way to do this, but I suppose the best you can do is wait out the finaid process with all your accepted schools and see how things play out. You may be surprised (hopefully positively!) by what you get.

All true. The process is so heterogenous even within a school. Some people get a great offer and others faint due to sticker shock. There's no good predictor.

Based on this thread, I think it might be at least possible to come up with some guidelines. Just to get students pointed in the right direction. Maybe one could say...

• Low EFC students may want to consider:
  • Schools with large need-based grants (Stanford)
  • Schools with unit loans, the smaller the better (Yale)
• "Middle-income" students may want to consider:
  • Applying broadly to schools with good aid and expecting packages to vary
  • Schools with middle income initiatives (Harvard for instance; their definition goes up to a family income of $150K)
• High EFC but low actual contribution (i.e., parents aren't sharing) may want to consider:
  • Schools with relatively abundant merit scholarships (Vanderbilt, Pritzker)
  • Schools with low tuition/COA (state schools are obviously the best place to start)

Then again, with the vagaries of the application process on top of it, these recommendations look pretty hard to abide by. Plus we have little information on almost any school that isn't super selective.

Ah, I don't know. Anybody else want to take a shot?

 

[FFH]

Since this thread is dedicated to schools with strong need based aids programs, I dare to temporarily remove Vandy and Pritzker from this particular list for now because the award listed for each school were all merit scholarships. If someone thinks their need aid were also generous, feel free to add the school back. We can also make another list for schools that gave out merit awards.

• Columbia--unit loan: $35K
• Cornell – unit loan: $31,897, as per interview day Weill only offers need-based aid
• Dartmouth – unit loan: $37,000, remaining financial need met with scholarship funds, per the interview day and their financial aid website.
• Harvard – unit loan: $30,400
• Johns Hopkins – unit loan can range from $20-25K
• Mayo
• Michigan--maximum need scholarship is full tuition. Student can only use one of the scholarships either merit or need, not both.
• Mount Sinai – unit loan: $31,000
• Penn – approximately 35 full-tuition scholarships, however, most of those would be merit based. According to the info session, only few of those would be need based scholarships. All scholarships are partially tuition restrictive, meaning if student gets full need aid plus merit aid, a small amount of the merit money will be applied to cost of living but not to the full cost of attendance.
• Pittsburge --although budget dependent, maximum need based aid usually is only slightly less than full scholarship, around $45k-48k.The initial package is guaranteed for all 4 years unless the student demonstrated to need more. If your spouse or parents are expected to make significantly more money in M2-M4, this is a good option.
• Stanford – only offers need based aid and has significant funding to students for research and teaching
  • Stanford has three tiers of need based grants:
    • 1. Full tuition grant given to max of 12 students per entering class ($16,905 per quarter) EFC will be considered for full tuition grant regardless whether or not the student has reached 30.
    • 2. Graded grant with a max of $11,500 per quarter Which translate to a maximum of 65% need aid grant. That is is $15k-20k short of full tuition each year depending on the number of quarters. It adds up in the end and becomes quite significant.
    • 3. Middle Income Assistance Program (MIAP): $5, 750 per quarter (but your parents have to match the same amount)
  • You can also get $15-18,000 second year if you are hired as a teaching assistant to first years (~40/80 are hired).
  • For grants other than the full tuition grant, students can be considered finacially independent once pass the age of 30.
• Tulane - about a quarter of the class does not pay full retail
• WashU--All needs minus EFC would be spliced into half loan and half scholarship, until the loan reaches loan cap which is $26k. Maximum need aid is $48,516 (about 85% tuition). Student are considered independent once reaches the age of 30 (so no EFC will be considered). All scholarships (including Olin Fellowship) would be capped at tuition. Cost of living will have to be paid or borrowed. WashU tuition is ALL inclusive with no extra fees.
• Yale – unit loan: $26,000 ($27,000 for 2015-2016). Generous EFC calculation formula or middle income family: for parents making less than ~100k, property value will not be taken into consideration and no EFC will be considered. For parents making more than $100k but have a small amount of property, no EFC will be considered. Scholarships are not tuition restricted.

For middle income students: one other key thing to consider is the formula used by the school to calculate your EFC. As @Amba has noted, although all schools calculate need aid in the variation of the following equation: Need Aid=Cost of Attendance-Unit loan-expected family contribution, due to the huge differences between the formula calculating EFC, the resulting need aid could vary dramatically from one school to another.

Note: WashU info is now updated.

 

[FFH]

Are we really counting Unit Loans as need-based aid? Are unit loans even need-based?

"if you are an orphan without any assets, you still have to take out the unit loan every year"

Pretty much every decent school can offer you enough loans to get you through. Loans don't make schools attractive to low-income students. Grants make schools attractive to low-income students. Particularly need based grants! Order of importance to low income students

1. Need based grants and need based scholarships
2. Need based loans (usually with lower interest rates or heavily subsidized by the institution aka institutional loans)
3. Merit based loans (also institutional loans that have lower interest or are subsidized)
4. Loans offered to everyone (unit loan)

I think it would be more helpful if we could list the amount of need based grants (or need based loans) that schools give out. That information is surprisingly difficult to find. For example:

Stanford: Has three tiers of need based grants:
1. Full tuition grant given to max of 12 students per entering class ($16,905 per quarter)
2. Graded grant with a max of $11,500 per quarter
3. Middle Income Assistance Program (MIAP): $5, 750 per quarter (but your parents have to match the same amount)

As a low-income student, I could read that about Stanford and see that it would be a great place to go to medical school because I would almost definitely get my full tuition waived if I got in. It would be great if we could refocus this thread in that direction. If we can't, I can start a new thread. Let me know what you all think!

(p.s. I don't know how to propagate the links in breakintheroof's last post so that's why I haven't added my thing about stanford to the list.)

@breakintheroof @meowfish6868 @hellanutella @rkoiballer @nope1955 @godawg300

I understand your frustration. However, unit loan is borrowed only to cover the cost of living and a small portion of the tuition ($15k max in most cases). I feel it isn't too much to ask the student to be responsible for those part of their medical education. For Yale, the unit loan will be LESS than the cost of living for M2-M4 year. So the school actually would be paying a small portion of money to the low and medium low income student to live while attending medical school for free. It seems a bit unfair to ask the school to waive not only tuition for the low income students but also to pay all of the expenses for the students to live.

 

[mehc012]

I understand your frustration. However, unit loan is borrowed only to cover the cost of living and a small portion of the tuition ($15k max in most cases). I feel it isn't too much to ask the student to be responsible for those part of their medical education. For Yale, the unit loan will be LESS than the cost of living for M2-M4 year. So the school actually would be paying a small portion of money to the low and medium low income student to live while attending medical school for free. It seems a bit unfair to ask the school to waive not only tuition for the low income students but also to pay all of the expenses for the students to live.

...though that's exactly what undergrad institutions aim for.

 

[FFH]

...though that's exactly what undergrad institutions aim for.

If a student coming from low income background is committed to help the disadvantaged like themselves, there is always the primary care program that forgives loans. If one goes through medical school only to work in lucrative specialties that does not particularly benefit the disadvantaged, then there is no reason why should the school waive not only tuition but also pay for the students to live.

Other professional schools all work the same way, like JD or MBA. For those who ended up doing non-profit work, they will have the benefit of free schooling in the form of loan forgivance.

 

[justadream]

If a student coming from low income background is committed to help the disadvantaged like themselves, there is always the primary care program that forgives loans. If one goes through medical school only to work in lucrative specialties that does not particularly benefit the disadvantaged, then there is no reason why should the school waive not only tuition but also pay for the students to live.

Other professional schools all work the same way, like JD or MBA. For those who ended up doing non-profit work, they will have the benefit of free schooling in the form of loan forgivance.

Using this logic, would you maintain that colleges should not provide significant need-based aid if those students do not go work in jobs that explicitly benefit the disadvantaged?

For example, let's say someone lives at the poverty line and makes it into Harvard. This person would pay close to nothing per year (maybe 4-5k would have to be covered by federal work-study). However, this person does investment banking at Goldman Sachs after college. Would you be against Harvard giving this person significant need-based aid to cover most tuition/living expenses?

 

[mehc012]

If a student coming from low income background is committed to help the disadvantaged like themselves, there is always the primary care program that forgives loans. If one goes through medical school only to work in lucrative specialties that does not particularly benefit the disadvantaged, then there is no reason why should the school waive not only tuition but also pay for the students to live.

Other professional schools all work the same way, like JD or MBA. For those who ended up doing non-profit work, they will have the benefit of free schooling in the form of loan forgivance.

I always saw need-based aid as being about equal opportunity despite your background, but OK. Regardless, whether you believe it should work that way or not, I was merely pointing out that the largest example we have of finaid - undergraduate education - typically bases the EFC and aid off of the cost of attendance, not just the cost of tuition. Now, maybe med schools, being aimed at smaller groups of older folks, don't generally run dorms or cafeterias, but I personally don't see that as a free pass to ignore the costs of housing and food on the students' end.

Now, I don't expect med schools to jump up and say "hey, mehc012 sees it this way, let's all be more generous," I'm just saying that I don't think it's extravagant or bizarre to consider 'covers full cost of attendance' as the golden ideal for finaid packages.

 

[FFH]

Using this logic, would you maintain that colleges should not provide significant need-based aid if those students do not go work in jobs that explicitly benefit the disadvantaged?

For example, let's say someone lives at the poverty line and makes it into Harvard. This person would pay close to nothing per year (maybe 4-5k would have to be covered by federal work-study). However, this person does investment banking at Goldman Sachs after college. Would you be against Harvard giving this person significant need-based aid to cover most tuition/living expenses?

Medical school does provide significant need-based aid AND significant merit aid. The maximum amount of aid offered by Harvard College is a bit more, but not much.

The money that goes into the aid must come from somewhere. A small number of undergraduate schools have so much money donated from people who work in politics and finances they can afford to do that. Most of the colleges can't. To held all schools, medical or undergraduate included, to the same standard makes no sense because most schools only have so much funding to spare. The school can't be expected to operate on negative budget. Even Harvard Med has to set unit loans. Some schools have such a small budget that they can't offer any scholarships as the dean of Upstate have said rather bluntly.

I always saw need-based aid as being about equal opportunity despite your background, but OK. Regardless, whether you believe it should work that way or not, I was merely pointing out that the largest example we have of finaid - undergraduate education - typically bases the EFC and aid off of the cost of attendance, not just the cost of tuition. Now, maybe med schools, being aimed at smaller groups of older folks, don't generally run dorms or cafeterias, but I personally don't see that as a free pass to ignore the costs of housing and food on the students' end.

Now, I don't expect med schools to jump up and say "hey, mehc012 sees it this way, let's all be more generous," I'm just saying that I don't think it's extravagant or bizarre to consider 'covers full cost of attendance' as the golden ideal for finaid packages.

We can agree to disagree what to expect the medical school should do. We can also disagree on whether or not there is any utility to demand or hypothesize for dream case scenarios. I guess I'm a bit less entitled to free stuff. I personally have been exceedingly grateful that some medical schools are kind enough to offer me some money as scholarships. And federal government is kind enough to loan me~$100k as an initial investment for my career in medicine. I plan to work in non-profit so that most of my loans will be waived after having worked for 10 years (residency included) and I won't be paying the full amount anyway.

 

[mehc012]

We can agree to disagree what to expect the medical school should do. We can also disagree on whether or not there is any utility to demand or hypothesize for dream case scenarios. I guess I'm a bit less entitled to free stuff. I personally have been exceedingly grateful that some medical schools are kind enough to offer me some money as scholarships. And federal government is kind enough to loan me~$100k as an initial investment for my career in medicine. I plan to work in non-profit so that most of my loans will be waived after working in the non-profit for 10 years and I won't be paying the full amount anyway.

Lol, that's funny...first time in my life I've been called entitled.
I basically don't count loans as aid, period, so perhaps that's where the difference in impression comes from. I certainly don't see "hey, a chance to lock someone in on a loan that is completely nondischargeable and doesn't even defer during education, so we can rake in hundreds of thousands of very low-risk profits!" as a particular act of generosity. But then, I went to an undergraduate institution which was very generous and made a lot of things possible for its students which wouldn't otherwise be true. They were proud to be able to offer us that opportunity, and rightfully so, because the absence of debt has an incredible impact on the decisions someone makes afterwards.

I think of financial aid as an opportunity for the school to level the playing field for its students. Just because both can attend the school doesn't mean they both have the same opportunities upon graduation. Someone with a few hundred k in debt will be pushed into different paths than someone without. Good finaid gives a chance to lessen that discrepancy. So I will continue to hold 'truly evens the playing field' as my gold standard for finaid, even if it's rare in med school because they can get away with less.

 

[OscarWao]

.

 

[ASD2019]

Undergraduate education and medical school are entirely different ball games when it comes to financial aid. In undergraduate education, it is the norm for capable parents to pay for their child's education (including cost of attendance). So "evening the playing field" would mean giving full ride scholarships/grants to students from low SES. Also undergraduate degrees don't really guarantee a certain level of compensation upon finishing them (a great deal of them aren't even capable of putting a roof over your head). A "rich" kid could get any degree they wanted and just go work at their family's firm upon graduation so it makes sense to attempt to provide students from low SES schooling with little to no debt.

Medical education on the other hand actually guarantees a certain level of compensation (at least upper middle class). And the norm is for most parents not to make any significant contribution to their student's education. Most people are lucky if their parents get them through undergrad. The majority of students aren't coming out of med school debt free. Actually the majority are coming out with significant amounts of debt. So "evening the playing field" would mean making sure those students from low SES have relatively the same or ideally lower amounts of debt.

Continuing "the orphan with no assets" example.. Paying that "orphan's" full tuition and asking them to take out 20k/yr for their living expenses isn't as ridiculous of an idea as some make it out to seem. When it comes time to pay back that ~100k that "orphan" is actually in the top 10% income wise. They might actually come out ahead since some of their peers will have significantly higher amounts to pay back with the same earnings. So I'm all for helping students from low SES (as I am a prime example of one), but I think that "orphan" should count his/her blessings.

 

[ridethecliche]

America sees it that way, many other countries don't.

 

[ASD2019]

America sees it that way, many other countries don't.

Hence why we have only discussed schools in the US

 

[ridethecliche]

Hence why we have only discussed schools in the US

The post I responded to had nothing to do with names of schools but everything to do with the philosophy of debt and payment.

Edit: though according to Dutch coworkers this is changing pretty quickly on their edge of the world.

 

[FFH]

Edited Michigan entry to clarify.

In light of my own fin aid package, I'd like to make an important update to the Michigan entry.

• Columbia--unit loan: $35K
• Cornell – unit loan: $31,897, as per interview day Weill only offers need-based aid
• Dartmouth – unit loan: $37,000, remaining financial need met with scholarship funds, per the interview day and their financial aid website.
• Harvard – unit loan: $30,400
• Johns Hopkins – unit loan can range from $20-25K
• Mayo
• Michigan--maximum need scholarship is full tuition. If the student was awarded merit awards, need based scholarship will replace the loan. All scholarship combined is not tuition restrictive--So need based scholarship (they call it grant) can be used to cover living expenses up to the full cost of attendance.
• Mount Sinai – unit loan: $31,000
• Penn – approximately 35 full-tuition scholarships, however, most of those would be merit based. According to the info session, only few of those would be need based scholarships. All scholarships are partially tuition restrictive, meaning if student gets full need aid plus merit aid, a small amount of the merit money will be applied to cost of living but not to the full cost of attendance.
• Pittsburge --although budget dependent, maximum need based aid usually is only slightly less than full scholarship, around $45k-48k.The initial package is guaranteed for all 4 years unless the student demonstrated to need more. If your spouse or parents are expected to make significantly more money in M2-M4, this is a good option.
• Stanford – only offers need based aid and has significant funding to students for research and teaching
  • Stanford has three tiers of need based grants:
    • 1. Full tuition grant given to max of 12 students per entering class ($16,905 per quarter) EFC will be considered for full tuition grant regardless whether or not the student has reached 30.
    • 2. Graded grant with a max of $11,500 per quarter Which translate to a maximum of 65% need aid grant. That is is $15k-20k short of full tuition each year depending on the number of quarters. It adds up in the end and becomes quite significant.
    • 3. Middle Income Assistance Program (MIAP): $5, 750 per quarter (but your parents have to match the same amount)
  • You can also get $15-18,000 second year if you are hired as a teaching assistant to first years (~40/80 are hired).
  • For grants other than the full tuition grant, students can be considered finacially independent once pass the age of 30.
• Tulane - about a quarter of the class does not pay full retail
• WashU--All needs minus EFC would be spliced into half loan and half scholarship, until the loan reaches loan cap which is $26k. Maximum need aid is $48,516 (about 85% tuition). Student are considered independent once reaches the age of 30 (so no EFC will be considered). All scholarships (including Olin Fellowship) would be capped at tuition. Cost of living will have to be paid or borrowed. WashU tuition is ALL inclusive with no extra fees.
• Yale – unit loan: $26,000 ($27,000 for 2015-2016). Generous EFC calculation formula or middle income family: for parents making less than ~100k, property value will not be taken into consideration and no EFC will be considered. For parents making more than $100k but have a small amount of property, no EFC will be considered. Scholarships are not tuition restricted.

 

[OscarWao]

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[Flintwire]

It seems like you're trying to say [...] but on the michigan thread you said:

Her edit clarifies the situation nicely:

Michigan--maximum need scholarship is full tuition. If the student was awarded merit awards, need based scholarship will replace the loan. All scholarship combined is not tuition restrictive--So need based scholarship (they call it grant) can be used to cover living expenses up to the full cost of attendance.

And may I just say congratulations FH, that's awesome!

 

[FFH]

@Flintwire ! Shamefully admitting that I, kind of, said the same thing to myself. It is indeed amazing. Thanks for the message!
@OscarWao, you are certainly right that the previous entry was not entirely clear. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[OscarWao]

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[NonTradJp]

Hello All,

I think the list needs to be more tabulated such as

school need-based loans need-based grants offers scholarship based on ses

Some schools have a good amount of need base loans but little or no grants/scholarships for need base only. Thus you have both need based loans + federal loans. Other schools offer plenty of grants/scholarships but no need based loans and thus you have grants/scholarships + federal loans. Some have a combination of all three. And unfortunately some gives none.

 

[blubearzangel]

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[ASD2019]

If I have been working since graduation, do medical schools calculate my income as part of the EFC in addition to my parental contribution?

Yes

 

[justadream]

Yes

I have a question about this.

Let's say in your gap year you make 25k/year. This would reduce the amount of need-based aid you get for MSI.

How about for MSII, MSIII, and MSIV? Would making 25k/year continue to adversely affect your need-based aid in subsequent years?

 

[cactus8910]

I have a question about this.

Let's say in your gap year you make 25k/year. This would reduce the amount of need-based aid you get for MSI.

How about for MSII, MSIII, and MSIV? Would making 25k/year continue to adversely affect your need-based aid in subsequent years?

One of my schools didn't require parent information, so I saw my EFC based on just my financial info (working a gap year job). It was 0. I'll only be working half a year, so my projected income was pretty low, but still ~20k. I don't know how FAFSA does their magic, but I definitely wouldn't worry about a 25k/year job affecting aid after MS1.

 

[ASD2019]

I have a question about this.

Let's say in your gap year you make 25k/year. This would reduce the amount of need-based aid you get for MSI.

How about for MSII, MSIII, and MSIV? Would making 25k/year continue to adversely affect your need-based aid in subsequent years?

You reapply for financial aid every year, so "need" is redetermined every year. And I agree with cactus. 25k is considering the cost of living in most areas so I wouldn't worry about it affecting your financial aid package.

 

[Dinitrophenol]

Can someone clarify the unit-loan?

My current understanding is that everyone must take this loan, no matter his/her financial situation. So for lower-income students, a lower unit-loan amount is beneficial because the rest will be (hopefully) covered by grants. For a higher-income student the opposite is true, and more unit-loan would be better or else you're stuck with GradPlus/private loans?

Or maybe I understand nothing 😛

 

[FFH]

Can someone clarify the unit-loan?

My current understanding is that everyone must take this loan, no matter his/her financial situation. So for lower-income students, a lower unit-loan amount is beneficial because the rest will be (hopefully) covered by grants. For a higher-income student the opposite is true, and more unit-loan would be better or else you're stuck with GradPlus/private loans?

Or maybe I understand nothing 😛

When parental or student contribution (calculated according to the school specific formula) is deduced from the student's entire cost of attendance, the rest is called "unmet need". Schools that have money to spare for need based grant or scholarship will help their students with those unmet need, but only if the student first borrow some money themselves and this amount is termed unit loan.

A wealthier school or school with more budget dedicated to need based scholarship can afford to set the unit loan lower. For any students who has unmet need after EFC deduction it'll be good to have a low unit loan. This does not affect wealthier students who might have such a great EFC (which may not be justified in all cases, since not all children born to rich family will actually have the help from their parents, it's not like the school can force the parents to give the students money), they won't have any unmet need, so they just have to borrow. The amount of federal loan they are eligible to borrow are determined according to their parental income. If a student with exceptionally wealthy parents has a greater EFC than the cost of attendance, then at the end of FAFSA, the government might say that you are not eligible for any federal loan. (I need second opinion on the last point I made from @breakintheroof @ProbablyAPenguin @hellanutella @onceawolverine )

Unit loan is composed of various type of loan and it's institution specific. At Yale, about $14k of the $27k unit loan comes in the form of alumni loan, about $4.5k comes as Perkins and another $8.5k as federal unsubsidized direct loan. Cornell has a similar breakdown except overall unit loan seems slightly higher. Some other schools I'm sure all unit loan are just federal loan. So for higher income student, it doesn't really matter the unit loan amount, what matters is the type of loan they are eligible to receive in that specific institution given their parental income and the cost of attendance

I must stop myself, but I really can go on and on about Fin Aid.

EDIT: So a few school will have minimal student contribution and minimal parental contribution no matter how low the income of your parents or yourself. For example, at Cornell, the unit loan is 30k, but then they have a minimal student contribution at 1k, so in reality the void between the cost of attendance minus the need based scholarship is actually 31k/year--of course you can borrow less if you live frugally. At Sinai, minimal parental contribution can be a few thousand. Many med school, before giving out need based scholarship, will also expect the student to pretty much contribute all of the assets owned in the form of student contribution. As well as the student's retirement fund.