LizzyM stuff and school list

[JSU]

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Hey everyone, below is a list of schools I will be applying to this coming cycle. My LizzyM probably rounds up to 73 (sGPA 4.0, cGPA 3.95~ and 33R: 12,9,12) with the only drawback being a 9 in VR. Here are my questions:
1. Should I aim a bit lower than 73 (say 72 or 71) due to my 9 in VR?
2. How much higher/lower than my score should I go when selecting schools?
E.g. I feel like I have no chance in hell at getting an interview at U Mich (74-One point above) and SLIGHTLY above Drexel (6 points below my LizzyM)

School List:
1. Albert Einstein College of Medicine
a. 72
2. Columbia University College of P & S
a. 74
3. David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA
a. 71
4. Drexel University College of Medicine
a. 67
5. FIU Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine
a. 69
6. George Washington University
a. 67
7. Georgetown University
a. 69
8. Harvard Medical School
a. 75
9. Jefferson Medical Coll. of Thomas Jefferson Univ.
a. 69
10. Keck Sch. of Med.University of Southern California
a. 71
11. Mayo Medical School
a. 74
12. Mount Sinai School of Medicine
a. 74
13. New York Medical College
a. 67
14. New York University
a. 73
15. Stanford University School of Medicine
a. 73
16. The University of Miami School of Medicine
a. 70
17. University of California San Diego
a. 73
18. University of California San Francisco
a. 73
19. University of California, Davis School of Medicine
a. 69
20. University of California, Irvine- College/Medicine
a. 71
21. University of Michigan
a. 74
22. Weill Medical College of Cornell University
a. 75

Location has been the #1 factor. With financial stuff (UCD) coming in as a close second. I also, want a small class size (Mayo, Stanford 😍) but am not willing to wait another year for acceptance because of it.

Thanks everyone!

Note: The school scores are from 2010-2011 MSAR. I haven't gotten around to changing them to 2011-2012 data.

 

[NickNaylor]

You're already applying to Harvard... how much higher can you possibly go? As far as how low to go, just apply to a few schools at which you think there's a respectable chance you could get in. It looks like you have a pretty good mix of schools there, but I'm not familiar with the California schools.

Keep in mind that while the LizzyM score is helpful, it isn't the end all be all. It leaves a whole lot of information out that can either compensate for a low score or sink even the highest scores.

 

[JSU]

You're already applying to Harvard... how much higher can you possibly go? As far as how low to go, just apply to a few schools at which you think there's a respectable chance you could get in. It looks like you have a pretty good mix of schools there, but I'm not familiar with the California schools.

Keep in mind that while the LizzyM score is helpful, it isn't the end all be all. It leaves a whole lot of information out that can either compensate for a low score or sink even the highest scores.

I wouldn't go any higher. What I was saying is that I can't see my self even getting an interview at the 74's (Sinai, Columbia etc.) so I was wondering whether to leave them on my list. I have an even smaller chance at Harvard (75) but I would feel bad not at least giving it a shot.

P.S. I am a CA resident

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

unless you're a CA resident, forget about all those UCs. Other than that, you've got a pretty top-heavy list plus about 5 "backups", which is probably safe enough.

Also, just because your LizzyM matches a school doesn't mean you WILL get an interview. It's just a tool, not a rule by which schools actually conduct their entire screening processes.

Edit: just saw that you're from CA, so keep the UCs. You'll be competitive but I just wouldn't consider any of them as "safeties".

 

[LizzyM]

My LizzyM probably rounds up to 73 (sGPA 4.0, cGPA 3.95~ and 33R: 12,9,12)

I don't round a LizzyM: You have a 3.95+33 = 72.5 If anything, I'd round down to 72 considering the MCAT.

I've colored your list green for close to your LizzyM, Red for those with higher stats and blue for those with lower stats.

I generally think that one should have 3-7 reaches, 7-10 in the middle and 3-7 in the lower range for a minimum of 13 and a maximum of 27 schools.

School List:
1. Albert Einstein College of Medicine
a. 72
2. Columbia University College of P & S
a. 74
3. David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA
a. 71
4. Drexel University College of Medicine
a. 67
5. FIU Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine
a. 69
6. George Washington University
a. 67
7. Georgetown University
a. 69
8. Harvard Medical School
a. 75
9. Jefferson Medical Coll. of Thomas Jefferson Univ.
a. 69
10. Keck Sch. of Med.University of Southern California
a. 71
11. Mayo Medical School
a. 74
12. Mount Sinai School of Medicine
a. 74
13. New York Medical College
a. 67
14. New York University
a. 73
15. Stanford University School of Medicine
a. 73
16. The University of Miami School of Medicine
a. 70
17. University of California San Diego
a. 73
18. University of California San Francisco
a. 73
19. University of California, Davis School of Medicine
a. 69
20. University of California, Irvine- College/Medicine
a. 71
21. University of Michigan
a. 74
22. Weill Medical College of Cornell University
a. 75

You might want to trim one "blue" school from the list either given the location and size (NYMC ?) or the cost of applying and size of the applicant pool (G'town) or because you may be too good for them (Drexel). Otherwise, you seem to have a good mix.

 

[JSU]

unless you're a CA resident, forget about all those UCs. Other than that, you've got a pretty top-heavy list plus about 5 "backups", which is probably safe enough.

Also, just because your LizzyM matches a school doesn't mean you WILL get an interview. It's just a tool, not a rule by which schools actually conduct their entire screening processes.

Edit: just saw that you're from CA, so keep the UCs. You'll be competitive but I just wouldn't consider any of them as "safeties".

Yeah, I know that they aren't safeties. Thanks

I don't round a LizzyM: You have a 3.95+33 = 72.5 If anything, I'd round down to 72 considering the MCAT.

I've colored your list green for close to your LizzyM, Red for those with higher stats and blue for those with lower stats.

I generally think that one should have 3-7 reaches, 7-10 in the middle and 3-7 in the lower range for a minimum of 13 and a maximum of 27 schools.

School List:
1. Albert Einstein College of Medicine
a. 72
2. Columbia University College of P & S
a. 74
3. David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA
a. 71
4. Drexel University College of Medicine
a. 67
5. FIU Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine
a. 69
6. George Washington University
a. 67
7. Georgetown University
a. 69
8. Harvard Medical School
a. 75
9. Jefferson Medical Coll. of Thomas Jefferson Univ.
a. 69
10. Keck Sch. of Med.University of Southern California
a. 71
11. Mayo Medical School
a. 74
12. Mount Sinai School of Medicine
a. 74
13. New York Medical College
a. 67
14. New York University
a. 73
15. Stanford University School of Medicine
a. 73
16. The University of Miami School of Medicine
a. 70
17. University of California San Diego
a. 74
18. University of California San Francisco
a. 73
19. University of California, Davis School of Medicine
a. 69
20. University of California, Irvine- College/Medicine
a. 71
21. University of Michigan
a. 74
22. Weill Medical College of Cornell University
a. 75

You might want to trim one "blue" school from the list either given the location and size (NYMC ?) or the cost of applying and size of the applicant pool (G'town) or because you may be too good for them (Drexel). Otherwise, you seem to have a good mix.

Awesome. Thank you!
I had the wrong stats for Davis (69 didn't make sense) so it is a blue now

1. Albert Einstein College of Medicine
a. 72
2. Columbia University College of P & S
a. 74
3. David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA
a. 71
4. Drexel University College of Medicine
a. 67
5. FIU Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine
a. 69
6. George Washington University
a. 67
7. Georgetown University
a. 69
8. Harvard Medical School
a. 75
9. Jefferson Medical Coll. of Thomas Jefferson Univ.
a. 69
10. Keck Sch. of Med.University of Southern California
a. 71
11. Mayo Medical School
a. 73
12. Mount Sinai School of Medicine
a. 74
13. New York Medical College
a. 67
14. New York University
a. 73
15. Stanford University School of Medicine
a. 73
16. The University of Miami School of Medicine
a. 70
17. University of California San Diego
a. 74
18. University of California San Francisco
a. 73
19. University of California, Davis School of Medicine
a. 69
20. University of California, Irvine- College/Medicine
a. 71
21. University of Michigan
a. 74
22. Weill Medical College of Cornell University
a. 75

I may chop a few blues later (Phili or D.C.)

:EDIT: UCSD went up this year and Davis went down (it really is 69). GWU got the cut. Mayo is a 73 this year 😀 .

 

[RookTookIt]

I generally think that one should have 3-7 reaches, 7-10 in the middle and 3-7 in the lower range for a minimum of 13 and a maximum of 27 schools.

Out of curiosity, why do you say a maximum of 27?

 

[ovenmitts]

Out of curiosity, why do you say a maximum of 27?

More than 27 schools is a LOT of secondaries, a lot of interviewing if you're successful, and a lot of money. You also need to think about whether you'd actually go to or even be happy at a lot of the schools you apply to. Otherwise it's just a waste of money.

 

[LizzyM]

Out of curiosity, why do you say a maximum of 27?

Because any more than that and you are spreading yourself too thin in the interviewing and the writing of secondaries. If you don't get an offer with 27 well placed applications, you aren't going to get an offer with 28 either.

Remember, you will feel obliged to go on every interview until you are holding an offer. That could mean, best case scenario, a dozen interviews before Thanksgiving. If you are that good, you don't need >27 applications.

If you have no interviews after 27 applications, and you had a balance of reach, target and likelies, it is not reasonable to think that you would have had better luck with >27 schools.

 

[pdxjazz]

Because any more than that and you are spreading yourself too thin in the interviewing and the writing of secondaries. If you don't get an offer with 27 well placed applications, you aren't going to get an offer with 28 either.

Remember, you will feel obliged to go on every interview until you are holding an offer. That could mean, best case scenario, a dozen interviews before Thanksgiving. If you are that good, you don't need >27 applications.

If you have no interviews after 27 applications, and you had a balance of reach, target and likelies, it is not reasonable to think that you would have had better luck with >27 schools.

Would the LizzyM score still be valid if you are applying to top research schools without having significant research experience?

 

[apumic]

Would the LizzyM score still be valid if you are applying to top research schools without having significant research experience?

Without significant research experience (i.e., 2-4 years with at least a presentation or two under your belt), it is highly unlikely any research institution would seriously consider you. Check each school's matriculation rates for research (in the MSAR). Research powerhouses likely have nearly 100% of matriculants with research backgrounds. Here are the top 20's from a couple of years ago:

94 96 92 91 95 95 94 88 93 92 88 85 94 91 98 91 92 87 84 93 91
Average: 92%.

In other words, you would probably have a chance of 0.08 * [base acceptance rate] at each of these schools.

Given your other stats, here are your expected chances at an interview or admission to the top 20 schools:

Chances at...
(Interview) (Accepted) Chances School name
1.0% 0.0% Long Shot Washington U
1.1% 0.2% Hopeful Yale
1.0% 0.2% Hopeful Northwestern
0.6% 0.1% Hopeful U of Chicago
1.0% 0.2% Hopeful Johns Hopkins
0.6% 0.1% Hopeful Harvard
1.3% 0.3% Hopeful Cornell
1.3% 0.2% Hopeful Baylor
1.1% 0.3% Hopeful U of Michigan
1.6% 0.4% Hopeful Mayo
0.7% 0.2% Hopeful Columbia
1.0% 0.2% Hopeful Mt. Sinai
1.1% 0.2% Hopeful Duke
2.3% 0.5% Hopeful U of Pittsburgh
1.0% 0.3% Hopeful Stanford
2.9% 1.2% Hopeful UCSD
1.0% 0.7% Hopeful UCSF
1.8% 0.5% Hopeful Emory
2.0% 0.6% Hopeful Tufts
2.6% 0.6% Hopeful NYU

The only one you have an even significant shot at given the lack of research and your stats is UCSD. This is taking into account your state of residency as well. The predicted range of uncertainty given for your acceptance percentages was an average of +/-0.03% (i.e., margin of error of +/-8.0% of each value above)

Given your information, recommended schools include:

Safeties:

Loma Linda
S Dakota
USUHS
UND

Matches:

U at Buffalo
U of Toledo
U of Oklahoma
UT San Antonio
Indiana U
U of Iowa
U of Massachusetts

Reasonable Reaches:

UTSW
UC Irvine
Einstein
Case Western
Ohio State Boston
U of Cincinnati
U of Connecticut
U of Miami Indiana U
U of Minnesota St. Louis
U SUNY Downstate Stony Brook



Lack of significant research is hurting you a lot here. That said, other ECs have not been taken into account and this is just a raw statistical analysis. YMMV.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Without significant research experience (i.e., 2-4 years with at least a presentation or two under your belt), it is highly unlikely any research institution would seriously consider you.

stop dude.

 

[JSU]

Without significant research experience (i.e., 2-4 years with at least a presentation or two under your belt), it is highly unlikely any research institution would seriously consider you. Check each school's matriculation rates for research (in the MSAR). Research powerhouses likely have nearly 100% of matriculants with research backgrounds. Here are the top 20's from a couple of years ago:

94 96 92 91 95 95 94 88 93 92 88 85 94 91 98 91 92 87 84 93 91
Average: 92%.

In other words, you would probably have a chance of 0.08 * [base acceptance rate] at each of these schools.

Given your other stats, here are your expected chances at an interview or admission to the top 20 schools:

Chances at...
(Interview) (Accepted) Chances School name
1.0% 0.0% Long Shot Washington U
1.1% 0.2% Hopeful Yale
1.0% 0.2% Hopeful Northwestern
0.6% 0.1% Hopeful U of Chicago
1.0% 0.2% Hopeful Johns Hopkins
0.6% 0.1% Hopeful Harvard
1.3% 0.3% Hopeful Cornell
1.3% 0.2% Hopeful Baylor
1.1% 0.3% Hopeful U of Michigan
1.6% 0.4% Hopeful Mayo
0.7% 0.2% Hopeful Columbia
1.0% 0.2% Hopeful Mt. Sinai
1.1% 0.2% Hopeful Duke
2.3% 0.5% Hopeful U of Pittsburgh
1.0% 0.3% Hopeful Stanford
2.9% 1.2% Hopeful UCSD
1.0% 0.7% Hopeful UCSF
1.8% 0.5% Hopeful Emory
2.0% 0.6% Hopeful Tufts
2.6% 0.6% Hopeful NYU

The only one you have an even significant shot at given the lack of research and your stats is UCSD. This is taking into account your state of residency as well. The predicted range of uncertainty given for your acceptance percentages was an average of +/-0.03% (i.e., margin of error of +/-8.0% of each value above)

Given your information, recommended schools include:

Safeties:

Loma Linda
S Dakota
USUHS
UND

Matches:

U at Buffalo
U of Toledo
U of Oklahoma
UT San Antonio
Indiana U
U of Iowa
U of Massachusetts

Reasonable Reaches:

UTSW
UC Irvine
Einstein
Case Western
Ohio State Boston
U of Cincinnati
U of Connecticut
U of Miami Indiana U
U of Minnesota St. Louis
U SUNY Downstate Stony Brook



Lack of significant research is hurting you a lot here. That said, other ECs have not been taken into account and this is just a raw statistical analysis. YMMV.

Out of curiosity how did you find his stats? (probably a stupid question)

Interesting stats. How did you calculate everything? (assume a bell shaped curve, plug in the median MCAT/GPA or LizzyM then see where he fell based on number of interviews and acceptances?)

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Out of curiosity how did you find his stats? (probably a stupid question)

..it's in the OP?

 

[apumic]

stop dude.

Look at the data. The schools with strong research programs tend to invite almost exclusively those with research experience. Additionally, the OP has a low VR that will also reduce his chances significantly. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to apply to those schools with that information. It's also going to be hard to explain why he wants to attend those schools without that research background. I would guess most HMS applicants give responses centering around their research and/or academic interests in addition to medical ones when answering such questions. (What other reasons would someone not from that part of the country apply there other than "prestige" which I highly doubt is a particularly good answer in the ears of an adcom?)

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Look at the data. The schools with strong research programs tend to invite almost exclusively those with research experience.

how do you extrapolate this reasonable statement to -

Without significant research experience (i.e., 2-4 years with at least a presentation or two under your belt), it is highly unlikely any research institution would seriously consider you.

really? 2-4 years? who did you poll to get this number? by your statement i'm going to assume you asked every research institution what they consider "significant research experience."

A-->B, not A-->G

 

[JSU]

..it's in the OP?

Nope. I stated my states at the top. Someone else asked that question. I have a year of research and a lot of independent investigation so I would consider my background moderate with some interesting aspects to it.

Assuming the above recommendation was made for me, how would it change based on me actually having a research background?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Nope. I stated my states at the top. Someone else asked that question. I have a year of research and a lot of independent investigation so I would consider my background moderate with some interesting aspects to it.

my mistake, perhaps apumic made the same error.

 

[JSU]

my mistake, perhaps apumic made the same error.

No worries. Though I am curious if the above recommendations stay the same even though I have a research background. There is a drastic difference between the schools apumic mentioned and the ones LizzyM approved.

 

[apumic]

my mistake, perhaps apumic made the same error.

I did. Sorry!

I'll have to be more careful next time!

Good luck, JSU!


With research, you should be quite a bit better off for the top schools. If the MSAR data is to be believed, you should probably still stick to just UCSD, UTSW & Eistein from the top 25 (or, if you add more, make sure you have plenty of safeties), but your chances are better overall at those schools with research. The low VR is what is bringing you down. Otherwise, your stats are GREAT! It's always hard to know how much schools really hold to their percentiles on VR, though. It's just that most of the schools have 10th percentile VRs of 10 or so, which makes a 9 unlikely to be considered. Nevertheless, it's worth a shot. Maybe anonymously call the admissions offices first and ask.

 

[JSU]

I did. Sorry!

I'll have to be more careful next time!

Good luck, JSU!


With research, you should be quite a bit better off for the top schools. If the MSAR data is to be believed, you should probably still stick to just UCSD, UTSW & Eistein from the top 25 (or, if you add more, make sure you have plenty of safeties), but your chances are better overall at those schools with research. The low VR is what is bringing you down. Otherwise, your stats are GREAT! It's always hard to know how much schools really hold to their percentiles on VR, though. It's just that most of the schools have 10th percentile VRs of 10 or so, which makes a 9 unlikely to be considered. Nevertheless, it's worth a shot. Maybe anonymously call the admissions offices first and ask.

Thanks. Based on 2011-2012 MSAR Data, none of the schools I picked have 10th percentile VR >9 (a bunch of schools went down. Even Harvard has a 9 VR as 10th percentile). Though, I plan on applying to the schools above anyway. Basically, 9 of my schools are in the hopeful category (on the list you posted 8 if you exclude UCSD) so that leaves 12 schools that I am competitive for and have a great chance at. Do you think I should add some more?

:EDIT: UTSW only uses AMCAS for MD/PhD

 

[Sammich117]

Moving to What Are My Chances

 

[pdxjazz]

No problem on the mix up.

Since this has moved to WAMC, let me ask again with a little more info. With only a summer of clinical research, and a LizzyM score > 78, is it worth applying to top 20 research schools?

 

[LizzyM]

No problem on the mix up.

Since this has moved to WAMC, let me ask again with a little more info. With only a summer of clinical research, and a LizzyM score > 78, is it worth applying to top 20 research schools?

LizzyM says "yes". I'm at a top 20 and we'd love to make your acquaintance. Chances of being interviewed are 50-50 (for the entire pool it is 10-15%).

 

[pdxjazz]

LizzyM says "yes". I'm at a top 20 and we'd love to make your acquaintance. Chances of being interviewed are 50-50 (for the entire pool it is 10-15%).

Thank you!!

 

[JSU]

1. Albert Einstein College of Medicine
a. 72
2. Boston University School of Medicine
a. 72
3. Columbia University College of P & S
a. 74
4. David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA
a. 71
5. Drexel University College of Medicine
a. 67
6. FIU Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine
a. 69
7. Georgetown University
a. 69
8. Harvard Medical School
a. 75
9. Jefferson Medical Coll. of Thomas Jefferson Univ.
a. 69
10. Keck Sch. of Med.University of Southern California
a. 71
11. Loma Linda Univeristy SOM
a. 68
12. Mayo Medical School
a. 73
13. Mount Sinai School of Medicine
a. 74
14. New York Medical College
a. 67
15. New York University
a. 73
16. Stanford University School of Medicine
a. 73
17. SUNY Downstate
a. 70
18. The University of Miami School of Medicine
a. 70
19. Tulane University SOM
a. 68
20. University of California San Diego
a. 74
21. University of California San Francisco
a. 73
22. University of California, Davis School of Medicine
a. 69
23. University of California, Irvine- College/Medicine
a. 71
24. University of Michigan
a. 74
25. Weill Medical College of Cornell University
a. 75

Here is my semi-final list. It feels weird having Stanford, Mayo, etc. as green schools.

 

[JSU]

New list. Added U Cincinnati and SLU

1. Albert Einstein College of Medicine
• 72
2. Boston University School of Medicine
• 72
3. Columbia University College of P & S
• 74
4. David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA
• 71
5. FIU Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine
• 69
6. Georgetown University
• 69
7. Harvard Medical School
• 75
8. Jefferson Medical Coll. of Thomas Jefferson Univ.
• 69
9. Keck Sch. of Med.University of Southern California
• 71
10. Mayo Medical School
• 73
11. Mount Sinai School of Medicine
• 74
12. New York Medical College
• 67
13. New York University
a. 73
14. Saint Luis University
• 71
15. Stanford University School of Medicine
• 73
16. SUNY Downstate
• 70
17. The University of Miami School of Medicine
• 70
18. Tulane University SOM
a. 68
19. University of California San Diego
• 74
20. University of California San Francisco
• 73
21. University of California, Davis School of Medicine
• 69
22. University of California, Irvine- College/Medicine
• 71
23. University of Cincinnati
• 71
24. University of Michigan
• 74
25. Weill Medical College of Cornell University
• 75

 

[bassvp]

I generally think that one should have 3-7 reaches, 7-10 in the middle and 3-7 in the lower range for a minimum of 13 and a maximum of 27 schools.

1. Would you modify this at all for someone applying to Texas schools as an OOS'er (or applying anywhere that is tough as an OOS'er). Maybe that would push you more towards that high end of each of these ranges?

2. Would you say that it is worth applying to Top20, research-heavy schools if one doesn't have any research experience? Under what circumstances might you recommend it?

Thanks for all your help on these boards!

 

[capn jazz]

wow, this thread is amazing!
i love color-coded things!

Lizzy, you recommended rounding the LizzyM score DOWN for the MCAT.
If you're the opposite, and your MCAT is higher (3.65/35) and you have a ~.5 score (71.5), would you round down there too? Or up?

Good luck, OP!

 

[JSU]

wow, this thread is amazing!
i love color-coded things!

Lizzy, you recommended rounding the LizzyM score DOWN for the MCAT.
If you're the opposite, and your MCAT is higher (3.65/35) and you have a ~.5 score (71.5), would you round down there too? Or up?

Good luck, OP!

Thanks! I'll post my final color coded school list when I submit next week. I think I am at around 27 schools.

I would assume that the same rounding down should apply as your GPA and MCAT aren't matched (when I think 35 MCAT I think 3.75+ GPA). Though Lizzy will probably have a more scientific answer.

 

[capn jazz]

Thanks! I'll post my final color coded school list when I submit next week. I think I am at around 27 schools.

I would assume that the same rounding down should apply as your GPA and MCAT aren't matched (when I think 35 MCAT I think 3.75+ GPA). Though Lizzy will probably have a more scientific answer.

I think I rounded down anyway just to be safe.
I gave myself a 71, so my "above" schools are 73+, my "even" schools are 69-72, and my "lower" schools are 68 and below. Gives me 6 aboves, 8 evens, and 5 belows. plus hoftsra, which has no data so it gets no color code. haha.

 

[JSU]

I think I rounded down anyway just to be safe.
I gave myself a 71, so my "above" schools are 73+, my "even" schools are 69-72, and my "lower" schools are 68 and below. Gives me 6 aboves, 8 evens, and 5 belows. plus hoftsra, which has no data so it gets no color code. haha.

Sounds like you have a much better list than I do. I can't seem to narrow down my bajillion schools...

 

[JSU]

.