Loans beyond COA

[hanjg]

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I am leaning towards a school (Yale) but I am concerned that their COA budget doesn't have enough in there to live off-campus, buy a new computer, have my car, travel home a few times during the year (expensive flights), etc, etc.

By my rough calculations , I'll need $6-10K more than they calculate for COA to live comfortably. I'm not maxed on my Un-sub Staffords, but they can't go over COA, right? (My other school has $24K to live on, buy books, computer,etc while Yale has $18K.)

What are my loan options? If any, that is.

 

[just one]

COA's can be adjusted for the individual, hence adjusting the loan amounts.

 

[brahmabull786]

I am leaning towards a school (Yale) but I am concerned that their COA budget doesn't have enough in there to live off-campus, buy a new computer, have my car, travel home a few times during the year (expensive flights), etc, etc.

By my rough calculations , I'll need $6-10K more than they calculate for COA to live comfortably. I'm not maxed on my Un-sub Staffords, but they can't go over COA, right? (My other school has $24K to live on, buy books, computer,etc while Yale has $18K.)

What are my loan options? If any, that is.

i want to know as well. But as far as I know, after the sub/unsub max out at 20,500 the grad plus loan kicks in to cover the rest up to the COA as estimated by the school. To get more, you can get a loan from a private lender, i.e. a bank.

 

[hanjg]

Thanks, justone. That was quick. 😀 How do you go about doing that? And what documentation is necessary? Or is that something that is on a school to school basis?

 

[hanjg]

Isn't the total Stafford $40,500?

[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Graduate and Professional Students. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Combined Base Limit for Subsidized and Unsubsidized Loans. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Additional Limit for Unsubsidized Loans. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Total Limit for Unsubsidized Loans (minus subsidized amounts). [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Graduate and Professional Students. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]$8,500. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]$12,000. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]$20,500. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Medical School Students. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]$8,500. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]$32,000. [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]$40,500.

 

[just one]

I was accepted to two schools, both of which I spoke to about the COA being too low since I am a nontrad with a family. Both advised that the COA is adjusted individually. I have not completed all the stuff yet so I don't know all the details yet.

 

[just one]

i want to know as well. But as far as I know, after the sub/unsub max out at 20,500 the grad plus loan kicks in to cover the rest up to the COA as estimated by the school. To get more, you can get a loan from a private lender, i.e. a bank.

I don't have the figures in front of me, but your number is way off. It is closer to $42,000 roughly per year sub/unsub total. It works out to be a max of a little over 200,0000 over four years. Like I said, I don't have the numbers in front of me but I gave a ball park. Someone will chime in with exact figures I'm sure

 

[hanjg]

I was accepted to two schools, both of which I spoke to about the COA being too low since I am a nontrad with a family. Both advised that the COA is adjusted individually. I have not completed all the stuff yet so I don't know all the details yet.

I know they'll do it for married students , or students with children, but I'm just not sure about single students without kids.

 

[FrickenhugeMD]

If you need more money, just walk into the student affairs office and tell them. Usually have money in the bank by the end of the week. At least that's how it works here

 

[just one]

I know they'll do it for married students , or students with children, but I'm just not sure about single students without kids.

Car payments and other expenses qualify

 

[hanjg]

I'll be calling in the a.m. to see what they'll do. That would be great.

 

[amakhosidlo]

Car payments and other expenses qualify

False. Our FA people specifically told us that car payments, credit card (and other) debt do NOT factor into your COA and cannot be budgeted for (Officially anyway, I guess if you want to live on ramen and use your food budget to pay for a sweet med school ride that's your call) .

 

[flip26]

False. Our FA people specifically told us that car payments, credit card (and other) debt do NOT factor into your COA and cannot be budgeted for (Officially anyway, I guess if you want to live on ramen and use your food budget to pay for a sweet med school ride that's your call) .

This is correct.

 

[hanjg]

Our FA people specifically told us that car payments, credit card (and other) debt do NOT factor into your COA and cannot be budgeted for (Officially anyway,

That's what I remember for the Federal loans.

 

[just one]

I sat in the FA office and was told face to face that car payment would be allowed but paying off a car is not. Was also told by medical students that if you needed a car say for third year, coa has been adjusted to allow for it. One of the schools I was accepted to would of required an hour commute each way every day. Gas would have been $400-500 each month. The FA specifically said they would adjust coa to include that.

Officially maybe it's not, unofficially it happens. The way it was explained to me is you present your situation to the school, the school then approves the adjustment. Like I said, I'll find out in the upcoming months, but my schools along with current and former students have told me their adjustments were not usually a problem. Maybe other schools are more strict

 

[red10]

eat ramen and live like a college student. COA is usually based on the average costs for other students. So yea you may not be able to get that cute little condo and eat out every night, but you're a grad student, you're not supposed to live like that yet.

 

[flip26]

I sat in the FA office and was told face to face that car payment would be allowed but paying off a car is not. Was also told by medical students that if you needed a car say for third year, coa has been adjusted to allow for it. One of the schools I was accepted to would of required an hour commute each way every day. Gas would have been $400-500 each month. The FA specifically said they would adjust coa to include that.

Officially maybe it's not, unofficially it happens. The way it was explained to me is you present your situation to the school, the school then approves the adjustment. Like I said, I'll find out in the upcoming months, but my schools along with current and former students have told me their adjustments were not usually a problem. Maybe other schools are more strict

I believe the restrictions on these uses comes from the feds - the Stafford loans.

 

[just one]

Like I said, officially vs. Unofficially. The FA basically said it depends upon how they word or submit it.

One school said "there is nothing they haven't seen before, and for the most part they make it work"

 

[flip26]

Like I said, officially vs. Unofficially. The FA basically said it depends upon how they word or submit it.

One school said "there is nothing they haven't seen before, and for the most part they make it work"

But it begs the question of where the funds come from? Grad Plus? Jeez, those are to be avoided like the plague...

 

[just one]

Yes, it would be grad plus, not many schools coa would be covered by stafford alone. And I'm not saying go out and buy anything you want. But for people like me with a wife, kid, car payments, etc, you do what you have to do. Since I am going to a cheap school, I can afford to raise the coa with grad plus loans and still be ahead of some that go to an expensive school. All the physicians that I know and speak to have said paying back loans afterward is not a problem unless you go crazy after residency with fancy cars, houses, etc.

 

[hanjg]

Well, I called and as far as YSM is concerned, for me at least, the COA is the COA. No adjustments to raise COA.

 

[ThaliaNox]

Well, I called and as far as YSM is concerned, for me at least, the COA is the COA. No adjustments to raise COA.

I know my school pretty much only makes exceptions for students with families. Honestly, though, for a single student the COA is more than generous for most schools. If you're finding yourself going 6-10 grand over, you need to adjust the way you're planning on living. Fly home once per year, live in a less expensive apartment, eat out less, etc.

 

[DrBowtie]

Yes, it would be grad plus, not many schools coa would be covered by stafford alone. And I'm not saying go out and buy anything you want. But for people like me with a wife, kid, car payments, etc, you do what you have to do. Since I am going to a cheap school, I can afford to raise the coa with grad plus loans and still be ahead of some that go to an expensive school. All the physicians that I know and speak to have said paying back loans afterward is not a problem unless you go crazy after residency with fancy cars, houses, etc.

All of those physicians were able to consolidate their loans to ~2% and weren't 200k in debt. Its just a different climate now and their reassurances really don't work anymore.

 

[hanjg]

If you're finding yourself going 6-10 grand over, you need to adjust the way you're planning on living. Fly home once per year, live in a less expensive apartment, eat out less, etc.

Gotcha. If that works for you, go for it. 😉

I'm just nervous. I just heard from FA yesterday. The numbers they show for room and board don't seem to be realistic for anything but the dorm. Maybe I'm just not seeing the cheaper rents yet. Tough when you only have till the 15th to choose.

My other school has a lot more wiggle room in the "living" part of the budget. That $6K difference IMO is a huge difference in lifestyle for 4 years and needs to be considered .

 

[flip26]

All of those physicians were able to consolidate their loans to ~2% and weren't 200k in debt. Its just a different climate now and their reassurances really don't work anymore.

Correct.

Plus, for attendings who have been practicing for 10 to 20 years or more, they experienced the golden years of compensation...something we won't.

 

[lovemesomeTJ]

Gotcha. If that works for you, go for it. 😉

I'm just nervous. I just heard from FA yesterday. The numbers they show for room and board don't seem to be realistic for anything but the dorm. Maybe I'm just not seeing the cheaper rents yet. Tough when you only have till the 15th to choose.

My other school has a lot more wiggle room in the "living" part of the budget. That $6K difference IMO is a huge difference in lifestyle for 4 years and needs to be considered .

What kind of lifestyle are you hoping to lead? And where is other school located?

 

[just one]

Correct.

Plus, for attendings who have been practicing for 10 to 20 years or more, they experienced the golden years of compensation...something we won't.

I have spoken to physicians 1-2 years removed from family practice residency, and IM residency. Both agree paying back is not a problem given the salary. One evensaid the school raised his coa several thousand over what he asked for. Of course moderation with new expenses when making a private practice salary is recommended.

 

[hanjg]

I just want a clean safe tiny efficiency apartment, my cat, be able to fly home on big breaks, eat, park/maintain/insure my paid for 9 year old car, have gas money, take part in student activities. Nothing opulent or fancy. As I said, my other school (UT-SW) allows $6K more in living expenses, books, etc. and the COL in Dallas is less than New Haven. It appears. That's the $6k I'm talking about. Not $6K to go clubbing. 😀

 

[DrBowtie]

I have spoken to physicians 1-2 years removed from family practice residency, and IM residency. Both agree paying back is not a problem given the salary. One evensaid the school raised his coa several thousand over what he asked for. Of course moderation with new expenses when making a private practice salary is recommended.

Again. The rates have only changed for anyone <3 years out of medical school. Those people were able to consolidate at ~2% interest rather than 6.8%. Use a debt calculator and you'll see a large difference.

 

[just one]

Again. The rates have only changed for anyone <3 years out of medical school. Those people were able to consolidate at ~2% interest rather than 6.8%. Use a debt calculator and you'll see a large difference.

Either way, a salary above 150k allows for repayment of loans even at 300k or better at 6.8%. You won't live like a rock star, but you won't be having to worry about your next meal or gas tank fill up.

 

[flip26]

Either way, a salary above 150k allows for repayment of loans even at 300k or better at 6.8%. You won't live like a rock star, but you won't be having to worry about your next meal or gas tank fill up.

If you have loans > $300k, you have a ton of grad plus loans accumulating interest at a much higher rate than 6.8 percent...compare this to docs who had well less than $200k debt when they finished med school 5 years ago and who consolidated loans at the 2ish percent rate...then tell us the diff and whether it matters or not.

Your debt service will be around double what theirs is, or that is my guess without running the numbers.

 

[lovemesomeTJ]

The following are fees for the school year at Yale (9 months)
Tuition: 45,600 (non-negotiable)
Activity Fee: 400 (What is this? Is it only directly related to the school? If it is 400 for you to put toward any activity, how come that couldn't last 9 months? A meal here and there?)
Books and supplies: 2050 (If they say it's enough, it must be enough, and I always hear med students talking about how they didn't even buy all of the books that were recommended. So buy only the ABSOLUTELY necessay ones, Google supplemental information, and put the extra money toward something else)
Equipment : 1030
Electronic Equipment Fee: 100
Room and board: 11,590 (I saw a 1 bedroom for 600 inc. utilities on Craigslist. 600*12 = 7200. These occurrences are rare, so you can get a roommate and eat PB&J Ritz. They're delish, and the crackers won't spoil).
Personal and Transportation: 3020 ( 2 plane tickets at 500 = 1000. Then you have 2020 left for gas [50/month = 450] and a bus trip here and there, and insurance [not sure how much yours costs; mine is 700/year, and roughly 900 more for repairs/money toward other areas. Change your oil yourself. I'm sure YouTube has a video on how to do minor maintenance yourself])
Medical expenses: 2130 (non-negotiable unless you can get cheaper health insurance elsewhere)
Travel to rotations: 620 (not sure what that includes, but if they're talking about gas, there's even MORE gas money)

And that's Yale in a nutshell. I don't know what else you will need, but if it's going to be the biggest problem in the world, maybe Texas would be the better option. Otherwise, you're going to have to sacrifice, my friend.

 

[just one]

If you have loans > $300k, you have a ton of grad plus loans accumulating interest at a much higher rate than 6.8 percent...compare this to docs who had well less than $200k debt when they finished med school 5 years ago and who consolidated loans at the 2ish percent rate...then tell us the diff and whether it matters or not.

Your debt service will be around double what theirs is, or that is my guess without running the numbers.

300,000 K at 8.5% (which is around grad plus fixed interest) for 10 years is 3700 per month. Compared to an income of 10K per month or greater, is doable

Either way, we are getting off topic, the op got his/her question answered.

 

[DrBowtie]

300,000 K at 8.5% (which is around grad plus fixed interest) for 10 years is 3700 per month. Compared to an income of 10K per month or greater, is doable

Either way, we are getting off topic, the op got his/her question answered.

3700 out of 10k is more than they would recommend for a mortgage.
Doable yes, but not comfortably.

 

[flip26]

3700 out of 10k is more than they would recommend for a mortgage.
Doable yes, but not comfortably.

Good luck to anyone with that situation qualifying for a mortgage, or new car loan, or covering anything else except basic shelter and food with what is left over after paying the loan and income taxes...

 

[just one]

Good luck to anyone with that situation qualifying for a mortgage, or new car loan, or covering anything else except basic shelter and food with what is left over after paying the loan and income taxes...

The amount left over is more than the average family, and that is for one working person

 

[flip26]

The amount left over is more than the average family, and that is for one working person

Given that the average person in the US did not even go to college, and the doctor went to college plus an additional 4 years plus a minimum of 3 years residency at great personal expense and opportunity cost, in a demanding profession with very long hours and huge responsibilities beyond what the "average" person experiences, are you arguing that the net compensation for a doctor should be "average?"

Oh, and one adjustment to your numbers. By the time you become an attending, the accumulated interest on that borrowed $300k will balloon the amount you need to repay to something north of $400k, so put that in your financial calculator...

 

[just one]

Good luck to anyone with that situation qualifying for a mortgage, or new car loan, or covering anything else except basic shelter and food with what is left over after paying the loan and income taxes...

The amount left over is almost the average american family income. Remember this is on 150k which is on the low end for physicians

 

[flip26]

The amount left over is almost the average family income

Not when you plug the $400k+ into the calculator.

And I think you are searching for the term "household" income which encompasses far more situations than a mommy and a daddy working outside the home.

I don't understand how you think the net compensation to a physician given the costs, responsibilities, etc., should be on a par with the "average" household or family or whatever construct you propose - why bother? Why not just become "average," save the cost and pain of the next 10 years, and start living the life of Reilly right away?

 

[just one]

Not when you plug the $400k+ into the calculator.

And I think you are searching for the term "household" income which encompasses far more situations than a mommy and a daddy working outside the home.

I don't understand how you think the net compensation to a physician given the costs, responsibilities, etc., should be on a par with the "average" household or family or whatever construct you propose - why bother? Why not just become "average," save the cost and pain of the next 10 years, and start living the life of Reilly right away?

For starters I used 300k, not 400k. I googles average American household income, saw 80k. I am on a phone so didn't look closely. And I never said physicians should be average. I am only presenting counter views to the argument " you can't live or buy a house on salary after paying loan payments". So I showed how you can on the low end for physicians. What about most of the specialties bringing in twice the income or more

 

[johncalvin]

Not when you plug the $400k+ into the calculator.

And I think you are searching for the term "household" income which encompasses far more situations than a mommy and a daddy working outside the home.

I don't understand how you think the net compensation to a physician given the costs, responsibilities, etc., should be on a par with the "average" household or family or whatever construct you propose - why bother? Why not just become "average," save the cost and pain of the next 10 years, and start living the life of Reilly right away?

I can't speak for "just one", but I'll tell you what I see here.

First of all, I agree with you that a physician's net compensation, given all the "costs, responsibilities, etc." should NOT be an average like an household/family's...

But, for a period of 10 years' repayments, I can live with that. I don't have the interest or time to crunch all the numbers, but my parents--together--make less than $70k/year...they've never made more than that...and me and my brother have had a nice house to live in (within one of the top-ranked public school districts [a.k.a property taxes are ridiculous])...and a pretty comfortable life...

And they've been doing this for 30+ years...I'll "only" be living like them for 10 years...

I can't speak for anyone else, but it isn't unreasonable.

 

[flip26]

For starters I used 300k, not 400k. I googles average American household income, saw 80k. I am on a phone so didn't look closely. And I never said physicians should be average. I am only presenting counter views to the argument " you can't live or buy a house on salary after paying loan payments". So I showed how you can on the low end for physicians. What about most of the specialties bringing in twice the income or more

A couple of problems here.

If you borrow $300k, by the time you finish residency, the accrued interest will push the debt to at least $400k - are you aware of this? Grad plus and unsub staffords accrue from day one...sub staffords don't, but those are only a small part of the debt.

And - your google is broken, because median household income in the US is around $50k, not $80k...

 

[just one]

A couple of problems here.

If you borrow $300k, by the time you finish residency, the accrued interest will push the debt to at least $400k - are you aware of this? Grad plus and unsub staffords accrue from day one...sub staffords don't, but those are only a small part of the debt.

And - your google is broken, because median household income in the US is around $50k, not $80k...

50k even proves my point more. Plus I did all the loans at 8.5%, where the stafford are lower. I realize mine are rough calculations, but the situation isnt as melodramatic as many make it to be

 

[flip26]

50k even proves my point more

Really? You are happy to net out at the median household income after 10 years of medical training, for the next 10 years of your life, or 20 years out from today?

Not me, bub. Not acceptable. Not worth it.

I should have told you the median was $20k - you would have been leaping for joy!

 

[just one]

Really? You are happy to net out at the median household income after 10 years of medical training, for the next 10 years of your life, or 20 years out from today?

Not me, bub. Not acceptable. Not worth it.

I should have told you the median was $20k - you would have been leaping for joy!

If you want to make tons of dough that's your perogative. All I was saying was that you and others make it sound like taking out any extra loans condems someone to the poor house and can't buy anything. I showed you how the lowest of physician salaries still provides a decent way of life.

Obviously the profession means different things to you than it does for me. Everyone is different.

 

[flip26]

If you want to make tons of dough that's your perogative. All I was saying was that you and others make it sound like taking out any extra loans condems someone to the poor house and can't buy anything. I showed you how the lowest of physician salaries still provides a decent way of life.

Obviously the profession means different things to you than it does for me. Everyone is different.

Not 'any' loans - you gave the figure $300k - I am borrowing money, too, but nowhere near that, and no grad plus loans EVER...you are in the pollyanna camp that believes that no matter how high the loans, you will be fine, and I simply don't believe that.

What you consider "tons of dough" I consider fair compensation, I guess. But no way I will ever accept that there is anything "average" about physicians, from their training, to the opportunity costs in choosing the path, to the heavy responsibilities (and legal liabilities) they have, and certainly their compensation should be something better than "average" when compared to the average slob in this country with a high school education.