Local anesthetic toxic doses

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CD125

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How are LA toxic doses calculated if multiple locals are given - ie doing a block with bupi and lido. Are they independent of each other or cumulative - ie I can give 50% of the toxic dose of lidocaine and 50% of the toxic dose of bupi?

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How are LA toxic doses calculated if multiple locals are given - ie doing a block with bupi and lido. Are they independent of each other or cumulative - ie I can give 50% of the toxic dose of lidocaine and 50% of the toxic dose of bupi?
I'm not aware of any studies that test toxic doses in humans.
 
How are LA toxic doses calculated if multiple locals are given - ie doing a block with bupi and lido. Are they independent of each other or cumulative - ie I can give 50% of the toxic dose of lidocaine and 50% of the toxic dose of bupi?
I have been taught to do it in a cumulative manner like the example you give.
 
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How much time in between administrations do you count it as one? Ie same surgery but 30 min vs 3 hours after first injection?
 
How much time in between administrations do you count it as one? Ie same surgery but 30 min vs 3 hours after first injection?

Good question. I typically have no problem exceeding the recommended maximum dosage 2-3 hours later. The guidelines are conservative for a good reason. That said, if I’m doing another block 3 hours later I’ll try to use the 0.25 percent Bup or O.25 Rop with decadron to maintain my comfort level.

After injection of MARCAINE for caudal, epidural, or peripheral nerve block in man, peak levels of bupivacaine in the blood are reached in 30 to 45 minutes, followed by a decline to insignificant levels during the next three to six hours.
1575744967840.png
 
How much time in between administrations do you count it as one? Ie same surgery but 30 min vs 3 hours after first injection?

I typically use 2 hours as my rule of thumb. Once 2 hours have passed from the initial injection blood levels are dropping dramatically and another block can safely be performed. Since I like to stay well below toxic blood levels I will use up to 1/2 the recommended maximum dosage of a local anesthetic like ropivacaine for any additional nerve blocks.
 

We as a specialty are conservative with our dosages. I like it that way but the data is out there about toxic dose ranges for every block we do. There are all different maximum dosages depending on the type of block. TAP block is not the same as a Popliteal block for example. I recommend you add Epi to the former while avoiding it for the latter.
 

Where is this table from?

It was also my understanding that the maximum toxic dose was within 24 hours. I have some attendings that have been pretty laid back and recommend going ahead and redosing after like 6 hours. I always ask them why or how and I can never get a straight answer.

Does anyone have any evidence for re-dosing within a 24 hour time period?
 
Where is this table from?

It was also my understanding that the maximum toxic dose was within 24 hours. I have some attendings that have been pretty laid back and recommend going ahead and redosing after like 6 hours. I always ask them why or how and I can never get a straight answer.

Does anyone have any evidence for re-dosing within a 24 hour time period?

NYSORA Tips


  • Recommendations on maximal doses of LAs commonly found in pharmacology texts are not terribly useful in the practice of clinical regional anesthesia.
  • The serum concentrations of LAs depend on the injection technique, place of injection, and addition of additives to the LA.
  • Any recommendation on the maximal safe LA dose can be valid only in reference to a specific nerve block procedure.

 

Ropivacaine plasma concentration curve shows that there has been a progressive concentration increase for 40 minutes. Then, plasma levels started to decrease and showed a low plasma concentration at the end of the third hour after local anesthetics administration. Bupivacaine levels has shown a progressive increase for 25 minutes followed by a decrease as well (Figure 5).






en_n1a01g5.jpg
 
: During the first 24 h plasma concentration of ropivacaine seems to be lower after repeated femoral block than after LIA. Since the maximal ropivacaine level following LIA is detected around 4–6 h after release of the tourniquet, cardiac monitoring should cover this interval. Regarding ketorolac, our preliminary data indicate that the risk for concentration dependent side effects may be highest during the first hours after release of the tourniquet


 
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In this study the maximum dosage of Ropivacaine was 3.5 mg/kg which is what I typically use in my practice. Please notice the plasma levels of Ropivacaine begin to drop significantly at 2 hours post injection.

Pharmacokinetics of ropivacaine in elderly patients receiving ...

https://www.spandidos-publications.com › etm › download

by FF Zhang - ‎2019
Jul 23, 2019 - total and free plasma concentrations of ropivacaine were measured ... to provide a more extensive blocking range and better anal- gesic effect .
 
Where is this table from?

It was also my understanding that the maximum toxic dose was within 24 hours. I have some attendings that have been pretty laid back and recommend going ahead and redosing after like 6 hours. I always ask them why or how and I can never get a straight answer.

Does anyone have any evidence for re-dosing within a 24 hour time period?

Redoing a nerve block after 6 hours is very conservative.
 
Redoing a nerve block after 6 hours is very conservative.

Another question I have is whether or not you believe in using ideal vs actual body weight?

There has been some data that suggest using ideal is better because you can come across very large patients or pregnant patients which can cause you to come close to toxic levels. Then there are issues of using ideal body weight dosing on very large patients and then it's just not appropriate either.
 
Another question I have is whether or not you believe in using ideal vs actual body weight?

There has been some data that suggest using ideal is better because you can come across very large patients or pregnant patients which can cause you to come close to toxic levels. Then there are issues of using ideal body weight dosing on very large patients and then it's just not appropriate either.

I don't follow your what you're saying, so the 120kg guy I dosed at 3mg/kg actually received 5mg/kg? Why is my guy alive and asymptomatic?
 
I'm not aware of any studies that test toxic doses in humans.


There was a case series about LAST a year ago. I thought I remembered it having a summary of more cases than this graph from it but I don't have access to the full article. Point being, Textbooks say max dose of bupi is 3mg/kg. For an 80kg person that'd be 240. Seems to be in sync with the data in the case series. I think some people play with fire up on OB drawing up 20ml of 2% lido or 400mg for patients that only weigh 60kg (max dose 4.5 lido without epi x 60 = 270mg)

1575968688224.png
 


“The role of bupivacaine in IVRA is controversial. It produces a reliable sensory and motor block and when used in larger doses prolonged residual analgesia is also achieved. Large series of its use without toxic complications have been presented. Yet, there are sporadic reports of severe, even fatal complications, usually as the result of a technical failure. In this article bupivacaine is compared to two other local anaesthetics commonly used in IVRA, i.e. lignocaine and prilocaine. Acidosis and hyperkaliemia are likely to increase the risk of bupivacaine toxicity. Other contributing factors include leakage under the tourniquet cuff and preexisting cardiac disease. We conclude that bupivacaine is a useful agent for IVRA assuming that the patients are carefully selected and the anaesthetist is aware of the possible risks and their prevention.”
 

“The role of bupivacaine in IVRA is controversial. It produces a reliable sensory and motor block and when used in larger doses prolonged residual analgesia is also achieved. Large series of its use without toxic complications have been presented. Yet, there are sporadic reports of severe, even fatal complications, usually as the result of a technical failure. In this article bupivacaine is compared to two other local anaesthetics commonly used in IVRA, i.e. lignocaine and prilocaine. Acidosis and hyperkaliemia are likely to increase the risk of bupivacaine toxicity. Other contributing factors include leakage under the tourniquet cuff and preexisting cardiac disease. We conclude that bupivacaine is a useful agent for IVRA assuming that the patients are carefully selected and the anaesthetist is aware of the possible risks and their prevention.”

Wow
 

There was a case series about LAST a year ago. I thought I remembered it having a summary of more cases than this graph from it but I don't have access to the full article. Point being, Textbooks say max dose of bupi is 3mg/kg. For an 80kg person that'd be 240. Seems to be in sync with the data in the case series. I think some people play with fire up on OB drawing up 20ml of 2% lido or 400mg for patients that only weigh 60kg (max dose 4.5 lido without epi x 60 = 270mg)

View attachment 288734

its pretty common doing 20ml 2% lido on OB ..
 
How are LA toxic doses calculated if multiple locals are given - ie doing a block with bupi and lido. Are they independent of each other or cumulative - ie I can give 50% of the toxic dose of lidocaine and 50% of the toxic dose of bupi?
I'm sure there's good discussion above or whatever, but I think it's really important to remember that

NO ONE KNOWS WHATSOEVER
 
Another question I have is whether or not you believe in using ideal vs actual body weight?

There has been some data that suggest using ideal is better because you can come across very large patients or pregnant patients which can cause you to come close to toxic levels. Then there are issues of using ideal body weight dosing on very large patients and then it's just not appropriate either.
The fairly recent review of LAST in Regional Anesthesia suggests ideal body weight if I recall correctly. I believe the reason ideal was chosen is that muscle is a reservoir for the local which keeps plasma levels lower; fat is not an effective reservoir. This not only has implications in obese people but also little old ladies with small muscle mass relative to their overall weight.
 
its pretty common doing 20ml 2% lido on OB ..

Right, that’s why i pointed that out. If you add epi you give yourself some room. The symptoms of transient local anesthetic toxicity are pretty similar and difficult to separate out from common symptoms during c sections (nausea, confusion, agitation, hypotension, drowsiness, etc.)

Do I think lidocaine toxicity is the reason why 60kg c sections are confused, drowsy, agitated, shaky, hypotensive or nauseous? Probably not but maybe. My point is, in my opinion, if you are going to give a dose considered toxic in a textbook, you should at least be aware you are doing it. Personally, however unlikely it is to have be part of a lawsuit for a bad outcome with a baby, I don’t want anything to do with having to explain why i used a dose considered toxic or the merits of ion trapping.
 
Right, that’s why i pointed that out. If you add epi you give yourself some room. The symptoms of transient local anesthetic toxicity are pretty similar and difficult to separate out from common symptoms during c sections (nausea, confusion, agitation, hypotension, drowsiness, etc.)

Do I think lidocaine toxicity is the reason why 60kg c sections are confused, drowsy, agitated, shaky, hypotensive or nauseous? Probably not but maybe. My point is, in my opinion, if you are going to give a dose considered toxic in a textbook, you should at least be aware you are doing it. Personally, however unlikely it is to have be part of a lawsuit for a bad outcome with a baby, I don’t want anything to do with having to explain why i used a dose considered toxic or the merits of ion trapping.

So what do you do?
 
anyone remember how fast uptake of lidocaine from epidural space ? yes its definitely over the 'recommended amount' but at the same time, the recommended amount (like others above said) is bogus and based on pretty much not much of anything. these days people are sometimes recommending 2mg/kg/hr of lidocaine IV . do it for 6 hours and its way over the recommended amount. but the recommendations doesnt even say over what period of time it applies for
 
So what do you do?

Prop, succ, tube.

If fetal distress, CPC to start then lido stopping at 15mL if low BMI. 20mL if average BMI. If reason to think it will take longer or very low BMI I’ll consider adding epi. 100 of fentanyl for everyone. I am not saying 20mL in everyone wrong or uncommon. I was pointing out that this is a bolus dose higher than the recommended supposed max dose.

I see your point with lidocaine infusions but I am admittedly conservative and have not used doses that high. Max i have done is 1mg/kg/hr. I am not sure I would go higher until that becomes a common practice locally where I’m practicing. Even 2mg/kg/hr in a 60kg person is 240mg over 2 hours. Some of that should be metabolized in that time. If you’re doing it in pacu, presumably the patient is awake and someone is monitoring them for side effects as opposed to a bolus dose prior to a c section.
 
anyone remember how fast uptake of lidocaine from epidural space ? yes its definitely over the 'recommended amount' but at the same time, the recommended amount (like others above said) is bogus and based on pretty much not much of anything. these days people are sometimes recommending 2mg/kg/hr of lidocaine IV . do it for 6 hours and its way over the recommended amount. but the recommendations doesnt even say over what period of time it applies for


For what it’s worth, the article below used doses below 2mg/kg/hour in 32 patients and reached plasma levels higher than what is apparently considered safe in a few of their patients. In the actual article, they review old papers in humans where lidocaine boluses were given, blood levels sampled, and symptoms recorded. Sample sizes were small but there was apparently some evidence of cardiovascular instability at the plasma level defined as the cutoff for toxicity in the current study.


Background
Growing evidence suggests that intravenous lidocaine as a component of multimodal analgesia improves recovery after major colorectal surgery. There is little published data regarding ideal dosing and target plasma concentration in this context, and we wanted to establish our dosing schedule was safe by measuring blood levels of lidocaine.

Methods
We measured the plasma lidocaine concentration of 32 patients at 30 min, 6 h and 12 h after starting intravenous lidocaine infusion for analgesia after major colorectal surgery. Patients received a bolus of 1.5 mg kg−1 over 20 min at the time of induction of anaesthesia. This was followed by a continuous infusion of 2% w/v lidocaine at 3 ml hr−1 (60 mg hr−1) for patients weighing up to 70 kg and 6 ml hr−1(120 mg hr−1) for patients weighing over 70 kg, using actual body weight.

Results
The overall mean plasma lidocaine concentration was 4.0 μg ml−1 (range 0.6–12.3 μg ml−1). In patients treated with the higher infusion dose, the mean concentration was 4.6 μg ml−1 compared to 3.2 μg ml−1 in those patients on the lower dose. Mean levels were higher at 6 h than 30 min and higher again at 12 h. There were no adverse events or reports of symptoms of local anaesthetic toxicity.

Conclusions
Whilst there were no signs or symptoms of lidocaine toxicity in our patients, there was a wide range of plasma concentrations including some over 10 μg ml−1; a level above which symptoms of toxicity may be expected. We have changed our dosing protocol to using ideal rather than actual body weight based on these results.

1576285306697.png

Fig 1. Plasma lidocaine levels in patients on the 60 mg hr−1 protocol in whom all three levels were obtained (8 patients)

1576285378647.png

Fig 2. Plasma lidocaine levels in patients on the 120 mg hr−1 protocol in whom all three levels were obtained (15 patients)
 
anyone remember how fast uptake of lidocaine from epidural space ? yes its definitely over the 'recommended amount' but at the same time, the recommended amount (like others above said) is bogus and based on pretty much not much of anything. these days people are sometimes recommending 2mg/kg/hr of lidocaine IV . do it for 6 hours and its way over the recommended amount. but the recommendations doesnt even say over what period of time it applies for
I recently ran an older patient on lidocaine 1 mg/kg/hr for almost 2 days (on telemetry). Zero problems. So I would "forget" about 1 mg/kg of lido every hour (when calculating the amount of total local given).

Now bupi is a different monster. We don't give it for ACLS, do we?

Also, LA toxicity can KILL. Better be safe than sorry.
 
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I recently ran an older patient on lidocaine 1 mg/kg/hr for almost 2 days (on telemetry). Zero problems. So I would "forget" about 1 mg/kg of lido every hour (when calculating the amount of total local given).

Now bupi is a different monster. We don't give it for ACLS, do we?

Your n=1 isn’t going to change my mind. People have clearly run much higher doses without running into catostrophic consequences. However, it is not a benign drug and can have hemodynamics consequences. I am not going to blindly follow protocols without reviewing the data myself and coming to my own conclusions. With underlying heart block or sick sinus syndrome, lidocaine can cause profound bradycardia and hemodynamics collapse. The paper I quoted above in colorectal surgery shows 32 patients on lidocaine infusions for 12 hours with 3 reaching potentially toxic levels. With their results they decided to change their practice and dose lido infusions based on ideal body weight. If you consider asymptomatic yet still toxic plasma levels harm, their small sample size still data produces a NNH of almost 1/10 in colorectal patients at doses used in ERAS protocols. Until we have better data showing which patients are the ones at risk for harm, I am not gung ho about going higher than 1mg/kg/hour.
 

“The role of bupivacaine in IVRA is controversial. It produces a reliable sensory and motor block and when used in larger doses prolonged residual analgesia is also achieved. Large series of its use without toxic complications have been presented. Yet, there are sporadic reports of severe, even fatal complications, usually as the result of a technical failure. In this article bupivacaine is compared to two other local anaesthetics commonly used in IVRA, i.e. lignocaine and prilocaine. Acidosis and hyperkaliemia are likely to increase the risk of bupivacaine toxicity. Other contributing factors include leakage under the tourniquet cuff and preexisting cardiac disease. We conclude that bupivacaine is a useful agent for IVRA assuming that the patients are carefully selected and the anaesthetist is aware of the possible risks and their prevention.”

Anything more recent than 1984 (35 years ago), and from an anesthesia journal? People used to inject all kinds of **** for all kinds of different reasons. I think there's a pretty clear reason why it is almost unheard of now.
 
Anything more recent than 1984 (35 years ago), and from an anesthesia journal? People used to inject all kinds of **** for all kinds of different reasons. I think there's a pretty clear reason why it is almost unheard of now.

lol. Obviously.
 
Anything more recent than 1984 (35 years ago), and from an anesthesia journal? People used to inject all kinds of **** for all kinds of different reasons. I think there's a pretty clear reason why it is almost unheard of now.
If I was an academic in the 1980s, I would probably submit some crap article/editorial like "neuraxial anesthesia using cocaine and diamorphine effective for gynecologic instrumentation" just so you guys in 2019 could say "that's an interesting idea, maybe I'll try it".

We hate to admit it, but these editorials and side discussions with colleagues really help move the field forward in good ways mostly.

My favorite: "I heard they do x/y/z in Europe" (insert ridiculous idea that is completely bonkers, like prone LMA for laparoscopic penile prosthesis.)
 
Your n=1 isn’t going to change my mind. People have clearly run much higher doses without running into catostrophic consequences. However, it is not a benign drug and can have hemodynamics consequences. I am not going to blindly follow protocols without reviewing the data myself and coming to my own conclusions. With underlying heart block or sick sinus syndrome, lidocaine can cause profound bradycardia and hemodynamics collapse. The paper I quoted above in colorectal surgery shows 32 patients on lidocaine infusions for 12 hours with 3 reaching potentially toxic levels. With their results they decided to change their practice and dose lido infusions based on ideal body weight. If you consider asymptomatic yet still toxic plasma levels harm, their small sample size still data produces a NNH of almost 1/10 in colorectal patients at doses used in ERAS protocols. Until we have better data showing which patients are the ones at risk for harm, I am not gung ho about going higher than 1mg/kg/hour.
I know they are doing RCTs and other studies on lidocaine infusion at Virginia Mason. They are comparing different doses and effect as well as monitoring serum concentrations to avoid toxic doses. Seems like lower dosing is better because there is not reduction in efficacy, but you obviously avoid reaching toxic levels.
 
We had a patient that underwent b/l knee arthroplasty and both the adductor blocks failed. The team wanted to redo the blocks but attending stated the patient is well over his toxic dose and he would not feel comfortable redoing the block until 24 hours later. On U/S the injection was no where near the nerve or the vessels.

One of my other attending said it was definitely possible and he was just being a wimp.

Is this something you guys have ever encountered? What do you guys do when blocks fail and you need to redo them. This is an outpatient procedure.
 
We had a patient that underwent b/l knee arthroplasty and both the adductor blocks failed. The team wanted to redo the blocks but attending stated the patient is well over his toxic dose and he would not feel comfortable redoing the block until 24 hours later. On U/S the injection was no where near the nerve or the vessels.

One of my other attending said it was definitely possible and he was just being a wimp.

Is this something you guys have ever encountered? What do you guys do when blocks fail and you need to redo them. This is an outpatient procedure.
I'm not sure if I understand correctly. The blocks failed? Or did someone simply fail to do the blocks? Because based on your comment about reviewing the U/S images it sounds more like someone Schruted it.
 
We had a patient that underwent b/l knee arthroplasty and both the adductor blocks failed. The team wanted to redo the blocks but attending stated the patient is well over his toxic dose and he would not feel comfortable redoing the block until 24 hours later. On U/S the injection was no where near the nerve or the vessels.

One of my other attending said it was definitely possible and he was just being a wimp.

Is this something you guys have ever encountered? What do you guys do when blocks fail and you need to redo them. This is an outpatient procedure.

Who did the u/s?
 
I should probably know the answer to this, but when it comes to concentration of LA, why would you choose a stronger vs weaker one. Do you get a longer duration with a stronger concentration? A quicker onset? Both? Does it penetrate certain thicker nerves better?

I know we use higher concentration for things like nebulized lidocaine, or other topical applications. But for local injections, what's the utility in changing concentration, other than adjusting cumulative dosing?

Thanks
 
I should probably know the answer to this, but when it comes to concentration of LA, why would you choose a stronger vs weaker one. Do you get a longer duration with a stronger concentration? A quicker onset? Both? Does it penetrate certain thicker nerves better?

I know we use higher concentration for things like nebulized lidocaine, or other topical applications. But for local injections, what's the utility in changing concentration, other than adjusting cumulative dosing?

Thanks
Higher concentration = increased density of the block as well as faster onset. Those are the 2 big things.
 
I should probably know the answer to this, but when it comes to concentration of LA, why would you choose a stronger vs weaker one. Do you get a longer duration with a stronger concentration? A quicker onset? Both? Does it penetrate certain thicker nerves better?

I know we use higher concentration for things like nebulized lidocaine, or other topical applications. But for local injections, what's the utility in changing concentration, other than adjusting cumulative dosing?

Thanks

It also depends on the block. The total dose matters too. Higher volume of local, for instance, with brachial plexus blocks increases the chance you hit nerves you’re not trying to like the phrenic. Then again, volume may help you overcome technique, obscure anatomy, or not being exactly where you want to be.
 
It also depends on the block. The total dose matters too. Higher volume of local, for instance, with brachial plexus blocks increases the chance you hit nerves you’re not trying to like the phrenic. Then again, volume may help you overcome technique, obscure anatomy, or not being exactly where you want to be.


More volume also gives you longer duration if that is a goal.
 
More volume also gives you longer duration if that is a goal.

Total dose is what’s gonna affect the duration. You can accomplish that be either increasing the volume or the concentration. It’s all about how many molecules of local you’re putting in there.
 
I'm not sure if I understand correctly. The blocks failed? Or did someone simply fail to do the blocks? Because based on your comment about reviewing the U/S images it sounds more like someone Schruted it.

I was told the block failed. The U/S images demonstrate that the LA was injected no where near the nerve.

I was told to re-do the block by one attending but the 'actual' attending who is covering for regional/PACU said he does not want to redo the block.
 
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