Looks like general Surgery is just about as difficult for a DO to match as an MD

[HalfListic]

I figure that these threads always have such misleading titles...this one is closer to the truth that has been found.

After all the discussion, these number, though not perfect or exact by any means, at least back up the idea that just about every agrees on: General Surgery is not a ridiculous reach for DOs.

Like any residency, you have to be qualified, and competition changes each year as popularity and slots change each year.

But, if you want to go gen surgery, going to a DO school will not put you at a severe disadvantage, as a vocal minority might have you believe.






Credit to playaodamonth for the number (which again, arent supposed to be perfect/exact, or even all inclusive. Neither can they explain all the intricacies of why any individual does or doesnt match. I dont think they include military residency either, though they might be included in ACGME number, Im not sure):

2011 ACGME NRMP Data:

Total # DO Applicants = 2,178
Total # DO Matched = 1,561
Total # DO Unmatched = 617

Student "interest" in specialty estimated by [#Matched into that specific specialty/Total #Matched]
Reasoning: the more students matching into a certain specialty can be loosely correlated with more students applying for that specific specialty, which in turn can be loosely correlated with students having more of an interest in that specific specialty.

DO students estimated interest in a specialty (I left out a few specialties for the sake of time).
19.8% for IM
18.6% for FM
14.5% for Peds
7.3% for Psych
3% for Gen Surgery
This seems to follow the general norm for DO students, as most tend to lean toward Primary Care.

Estimated # of Unmatched DOs applying for ACGME Gen Surgery = Total # Unmatched DOs * Likelihood of Gen-Surgery Interest = 617*.03 = approximately 19 students may have been interested in Gen-Surgery but did not match.

Gen Surgery Data:
1437 total applicants (USMD + IA)
**IA = Independent Applicants (DO+IMG+FMG)

USMD
Total # Applicants = 945
Total # Matched = 804
Match Rate = 85.1%

DO
Total # DO Match for both Categorical + Preliminary = 46
Total # DO Applicants = Total # Matched + Estimated # Unmatched = 46 + 19 = 65
Estimated Match Rate = 70.1%

IA (subtracting DO)
Total # Match = 172 - 46 = 126
Total # Unmatched = 320 - 19 = 301
Total # FMG+IMG Applicants = 427
Estimated Match Rate for FMG & IMG = 29.5%

2011 AOA Match Data for Gen-Surgery
Total # Positions Available = 104
Total # Applicants = 102
Total # Matched = 102, leaving 2 spots unfilled.
Match Rate = 100%

Factoring in 2011 AOA Match with 2011 ACGME Match for Gen-Surgery:
Total # DO Applicants = 46 (ACGME Match) + 19 (Estimated ACGME Unmatch) + 102 (AOA Match) + 0 (AOA Unmatch) = 167
Total # DO Match = 148
Match Rate = 88.6%

ACGME Gen-Surgery Estimated Match Rate
MD = 85.1%
DO = 70.1%

Total US Estimated Match Rate (AOA & ACGME)
MD = 85.1%
DO = 88.6%

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[SurgeDO]

good post.

does this data take into account the DOs that are withdrawn from the ACGME match because they matched into the AOA?

 

[HalfListic]

good post.

does this data take into account the DOs that are withdrawn from the ACGME match because they matched into the AOA?

The data do show ACGME and AOA separate, then together at the bottom for total DO, so I would guess that would cover those individuals.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I figure that these threads always have such misleading titles...this one is closer to the truth that has been found.

After all the discussion, these number, though not perfect or exact by any means, at least back up the idea that just about every agrees on: General Surgery is not a ridiculous reach for DOs.

Like any residency, you have to be qualified, and competition changes each year as popularity and slots change each year.

But, if you want to go gen surgery, going to a DO school will not put you at a severe disadvantage, as a vocal minority might have you believe.






Credit to playaodamonth for the number (which again, arent supposed to be perfect/exact, or even all inclusive. Neither can they explain all the intricacies of why any individual does or doesnt match. I dont think they include military residency either, though they might be included in ACGME number, Im not sure):

2011 ACGME NRMP Data:

Total # DO Applicants = 2,178
Total # DO Matched = 1,561
Total # DO Unmatched = 617

Student "interest" in specialty estimated by [#Matched into that specific specialty/Total #Matched]
Reasoning: the more students matching into a certain specialty can be loosely correlated with more students applying for that specific specialty, which in turn can be loosely correlated with students having more of an interest in that specific specialty.

DO students estimated interest in a specialty (I left out a few specialties for the sake of time).
19.8% for IM
18.6% for FM
14.5% for Peds
7.3% for Psych
3% for Gen Surgery
This seems to follow the general norm for DO students, as most tend to lean toward Primary Care.

Estimated # of Unmatched DOs applying for ACGME Gen Surgery = Total # Unmatched DOs * Likelihood of Gen-Surgery Interest = 617*.03 = approximately 19 students may have been interested in Gen-Surgery but did not match.

Gen Surgery Data:
1437 total applicants (USMD + IA)
**IA = Independent Applicants (DO+IMG+FMG)

USMD
Total # Applicants = 945
Total # Matched = 804
Match Rate = 85.1%

DO
Total # DO Match for both Categorical + Preliminary = 46
Total # DO Applicants = Total # Matched + Estimated # Unmatched = 46 + 19 = 65
Estimated Match Rate = 70.1%

IA (subtracting DO)
Total # Match = 172 - 46 = 126
Total # Unmatched = 320 - 19 = 301
Total # FMG+IMG Applicants = 427
Estimated Match Rate for FMG & IMG = 29.5%

2011 AOA Match Data for Gen-Surgery
Total # Positions Available = 104
Total # Applicants = 102
Total # Matched = 102, leaving 2 spots unfilled.
Match Rate = 100%

Factoring in 2011 AOA Match with 2011 ACGME Match for Gen-Surgery:
Total # DO Applicants = 46 (ACGME Match) + 19 (Estimated ACGME Unmatch) + 102 (AOA Match) + 0 (AOA Unmatch) = 167
Total # DO Match = 148
Match Rate = 88.6%

ACGME Gen-Surgery Estimated Match Rate
MD = 85.1%
DO = 70.1%

Total US Estimated Match Rate (AOA & ACGME)
MD = 85.1%
DO = 88.6%

This is an important point here.... for those who want an accurate picture of the situation. The above says there are 0 AOA unmatched. This isn't true. There were over 60 who didn't match in the AOA. I'm not sure if these individuals are allowed to flow over into the ACGME if they don't match. Someone else will have to comment on that. But any DO student reading this would be doing themselves a disservice if they believed they won't have to jump through a few extra hoops in order to become a surgeon. I'd say focus heavily on away rotations and get letters from people in MD programs if you want to increase odds of matching ACGME, which constitutes about 1/3 of all DO students who match surgery. Keep in mind that the low rate of success within the AOA means many will be looking at the ACGME regardless of their stats.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf pg 83 is the start of the g-surg stuff. 86 has the probability of matching by contiguous ranks.

I think you are inflating the overall % for DOs as many people who rank AOA. Unless I misread, you seemed to just lump in the AOA positions at 100% success, but that isnt the case. According to this document http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2011.pdf there were 1.63 applicants per seat making the success rate within the AOA somewhere closer to 61% (page 5, 104 seats / 169 applicants, or you could go 102 seats filled... this indicates that there were those in the pool that either didn't apply correctly, or were excluded based on their own rankings via the algorithm or were too undesirable to match period. This, sadly, does happen, although infrequently, in both MD and DO camps).

Those who don't match in the AOA are able to join the ACGME match which occurs later (I think....) or they are required to SOAP and will likely go primary care. But this means there are about 65 DO students who failed to match surgery in the AOA alone. This is already greater than the entire number who match ACGME. But again, remember the low number of contiguous ranks, meaning that they likely had ranked non-surgical specialties as well and matched those. Another option is that they were gunning for a competitive AOA surgical specialty like ortho and listed surg as a backup. However if this were the norm you would still expect a higher number of contiguous ranks.

 

[SpecterGT260]

good post.

does this data take into account the DOs that are withdrawn from the ACGME match because they matched into the AOA?

The ACGME numbers treat DOs in separate groups. The Matched and Unmatched are only those who completed the whole process. They have another group for those who withdrew, and yet another for those who started an application but it never went anywhere. "Unmatched" here, doesn't include those who went AOA.

 

[SurgeDO]

The ACGME numbers treat DOs in separate groups. The Matched and Unmatched are only those who completed the whole process. They have another group for those who withdrew, and yet another for those who started an application but it never went anywhere. "Unmatched" here, doesn't include those who went AOA.

this is what i was wondering--thanks!

 

[HalfListic]

This is an important point here.... for those who want an accurate picture of the situation. The above says there are 0 AOA unmatched. This isn't true. There were over 60 who didn't match in the AOA. I'm not sure if these individuals are allowed to flow over into the ACGME if they don't match. Someone else will have to comment on that. But any DO student reading this would be doing themselves a disservice if they believed they won't have to jump through a few extra hoops in order to become a surgeon. I'd say focus heavily on away rotations and get letters from people in MD programs if you want to increase odds of matching ACGME, which constitutes about 1/3 of all DO students who match surgery. Keep in mind that the low rate of success within the AOA means many will be looking at the ACGME regardless of their stats.

Good thought...with this, and other missed info, Im sure anyone should give this info a good +/- 7to8%. Just a general idea.


And its true, what you point out about away rotations. Those are usually called "audition rotations" informally by DOs. From the sounds of it, you likely wont even interview at a place you haven't rotated at, so that should be a big part of elective clinical's at the end of 3rd and during 4th year.

And, I agree that there are decent hurdles for a DO to get into an ACGME residency, but I haven't heard the same for AOA. At least, not anything more than what any student, MD or DO, would have to do to get a surgical residency, which is my main point.

 

[cliquesh]

https://www.aamc.org/download/321562/data/2012factstable40.pdf

I don't know accurate that table is, but in 2011 459 DOs applied for acgme general surgery residencies. 28 DOs matched Acgme general surgery that year. 102 DOs matched AOA general surgery. Assuming all of the people that applied for AOA general surgery also applied to Acgme general surgery, which isn't true, then 130/459, or 28%, DOs that wanted general surgery got it.

You should keep in mind that the average DO applicant is not as good as the average MD applicant, at least on paper (lower board scores or no usmle at all, little research, unimpressive LORs). My classmates that had a pretty typical MD application for general surgery matched a decent state university programs without much difficulties. So even though it's useful to look at all of these statistics, you cannot really compare an average DO to the average MD.

 

[HalfListic]

I also wanted to point out an idea, that I will not take the time to find the exact numbers on since Im on my phone...


But the idea is this: We are talking about how competitive something is, how hard it is to obtain. All we are using is number of those to apparently want it (apply) and comparing that to the number who actually get it.

This is probably the easiest way to find a general comparison, but I think we can all agree it is very limited. For example:


I remember reading that the number of applicants, per seat, for DO school was higher than for MD schools. something like 4 per seat, vs 3.

Does that mean that DO schools are more "competitive" to get into? I think most people would agree, against the numbers, that MD schools are generally tougher to get into.

(though there are individual cases where students are rejected from DO schools, but accepted to MD).

This all to show that simple numbers and ratios will have a tough time telling the entire story. You need all the numbers and ratios...and then add in the subjective nature of interviews and program preference. Then self selection, etc, etc, etc

 

[SurgeDO]

DO students estimated interest in a specialty (I left out a few specialties for the sake of time).
19.8% for IM
18.6% for FM
14.5% for Peds
7.3% for Psych
3% for Gen Surgery
This seems to follow the general norm for DO students, as most tend to lean toward Primary Care.

HalfListic, i know you were not the original author of this, but do you know where this statistic came from?

 

[SurgeDO]

https://www.aamc.org/download/321562/data/2012factstable40.pdf

I don't know accurate that table is, but in 2011 459 DOs applied for acgme general surgery residencies. 28 DOs matched Acgme general surgery that year. 102 DOs matched AOA general surgery. Assuming all of the people that applied for AOA general surgery also applied to Acgme general surgery, which isn't true, then 130/459, or 28%, DOs that wanted general surgery got it.

You should keep in mind that the average DO applicant is not as good as the average MD applicant, at least on paper (lower board scores or no usmle at all, little research, unimpressive LORs). My classmates that had a pretty typical MD application for general surgery matched a decent state university programs without much difficulties. So even though it's useful to look at all of these statistics, you cannot really compare an average DO to the average MD.

is there any speculation as to why 459 DOs applied for ACGME general surgery? for some reason, i thought this number would be much, much lower. i guess i thought specialties/surgery would be a lot more self-selecting.

this thread has been very informative...let's keep it up, guys!👍👍👍

 

[NontradCA]

https://www.aamc.org/download/321562/data/2012factstable40.pdf

I don't know accurate that table is, but in 2011 459 DOs applied for acgme general surgery residencies. 28 DOs matched Acgme general surgery that year. 102 DOs matched AOA general surgery. Assuming all of the people that applied for AOA general surgery also applied to Acgme general surgery, which isn't true, then 130/459, or 28%, DOs that wanted general surgery got it.

You should keep in mind that the average DO applicant is not as good as the average MD applicant, at least on paper (lower board scores or no usmle at all, little research, unimpressive LORs). My classmates that had a pretty typical MD application for general surgery matched a decent state university programs without much difficulties. So even though it's useful to look at all of these statistics, you cannot really compare an average DO to the average MD.

Cliquesh, if you had to speculate- did the percentage who didnt match try for more than one specialty or had to scramble?

 

[SpecterGT260]

is there any speculation as to why 459 DOs applied for ACGME general surgery? for some reason, i thought this number would be much, much lower. i guess i thought specialties/surgery would be a lot more self-selecting.

this thread has been very informative...let's keep it up, guys!👍👍👍

Do you understand what contiguous ranks are and what they mean? There may be some fishing going on by many students. i.e. they are ranking multiple specialties related to a field of interest rather than sticking to just 1. While there may be 450 applicants to surgery, they might also have apps in to a number of other specialties as well.

 

[cliquesh]

is there any speculation as to why 459 DOs applied for ACGME general surgery? for some reason, i thought this number would be much, much lower. i guess i thought specialties/surgery would be a lot more self-selecting.

this thread has been very informative...let's keep it up, guys!👍👍👍

First, I don't think it's an accurate number. Second, a lot of people are delusional when they apply for residency and they hope for the best. Third, general surgery isn't suppose to be that difficult to match into, at least for USMDs and AOA programs. Everyone I know that matched AOA general surgery had board scores that were in the 60th percentile, so it's not that competitive, at least stat wise. Fourth, people applying for orthopedics, and other surgical specialities, use general surgery as a back up.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Cliquesh, if you had to speculate- did the percentage who didnt match tried for more than one specialty or tried to scramble?

If you can use the AOA data that I posted previously as a guide, they very likely applied to more than 1 specialty. 4 contiguous ranks is quite low.

 

[survivordo]

There were over 60 who didn't match in the AOA. I'm not sure if these individuals are allowed to flow over into the ACGME if they don't match. Someone else will have to comment on that. But any DO student reading this would be doing themselves a disservice if they believed they won't have to jump through a few extra hoops in order to become a surgeon.

You can enter into the ACGME match if you don't match AOA. A viable strategy would be to rank only two or three programs in AOA that you are extremely interested in then use then use the ACGME as a kind of "backup" if you will.

Survivor DO

 

[HalfListic]

HalfListic, i know you were not the original author of this, but do you know where this statistic came from?

I dont...this is the only website Ive found with specialty info. But, it doesnt specify gen surgery, just shows that over 60% of DOs choose Primary Care residencies.


http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a.../Pages/osteopathic-physician-specialties.aspx

 

[cliquesh]

Cliquesh, if you had to speculate- did the percentage who didnt match try for more than one specialty or had to scramble?

Most scrambled into an AOA traditional rotating intership.

 

[HalfListic]

Do you understand what contiguous ranks are and what they mean? There may be some fishing going on by many students. i.e. they are ranking multiple specialties related to a field of interest rather than sticking to just 1. While there may be 450 applicants to surgery, they might also have apps in to a number of other specialties as well.

right on,... and Ive heard that applying to multiple specialties can sometimes put you at a disadvantage if you are on the bubble of being accepted. Something about not showing commitment to the specialty, I guess.

You can enter into the ACGME match if you don't match AOA. A viable strategy would be to rank only two or three programs in AOA that you are extremely interested in then use then use the ACGME as a kind of "backup" if you will.

Survivor DO

👍 good info

 

[cliquesh]

If you can use the AOA data that I posted previously as a guide, they very likely applied to more than 1 specialty. 4 contiguous ranks is quite low.

It's not uncommon for AOA programs, especially the surgical specialities, to only offer interviews to people that rotated at their programs. Realistically, it's only possible to rotate at about 6 programs (at most) before its too late in the interview process. Therefore, it's not uncommon to only rank a handful of programs (3 to 7). I don't know anyone, for instance, that received more than 5 orthopedic interviews.

 

[SurgeDO]

Do you understand what contiguous ranks are and what they mean? There may be some fishing going on by many students. i.e. they are ranking multiple specialties related to a field of interest rather than sticking to just 1. While there may be 450 applicants to surgery, they might also have apps in to a number of other specialties as well.

ah, i understand now. i did not know what contiguous ranks were or what they meant.

 

[NontradCA]

You can enter into the ACGME match if you don't match AOA. A viable strategy would be to rank only two or three programs in AOA that you are extremely interested in then use then use the ACGME as a kind of "backup" if you will.

Survivor DO

I don't see how this is a viable strategy considering cliquesh's number of those matching compared to applicant. Wouldn't a more viable strategy be to rank surgery programs in the AOA and then ranking a more DO friendly specialty in the ACGME?

 

[playaodamonth]

Hey all, I kind-of-sort-of updated the data the best I could. Thanks SpecterGT for the heads up, completely missed that very important/key information womp. But that's the beauty of multiple heads working together (both MD and DO students 😍), to fine-tune the data the best we can with the little information we have. Keep in mind, however, that with any retrospective qualitative data analysis, you will come across variable after variable after variable after variable. The trick is to take into account only the variables you are able to semi-gather data for. The rest, although important to recognize, should be discounted, or else you'll continue down the endless rabbit hole of countless variables. Please let me know how else you would like to fine-tune the data so we can get the most accurate representation.

2011 ACGME NRMP Data:

Total # DO Applicants = 2,178
Total # DO Matched = 1,561
Total # DO Unmatched = 617

Student "interest" in specialty estimated by [#Matched into that specific specialty/Total #Matched]
Reasoning: the more students matching into a certain specialty can be loosely correlated with more students applying for that specific specialty, which in turn can be loosely correlated with students having more of an interest in that specific specialty.

DO students estimated interest in a specialty (I left out a few specialties for the sake of time).
19.8% for IM
18.6% for FM
14.5% for Peds
7.3% for Psych
3% for Gen Surgery
This seems to follow the general norm for DO students, as most tend to lean toward Primary Care.

Estimated # of Unmatched DOs applying for ACGME Gen Surgery = Total # Unmatched DOs * Likelihood of Gen-Surgery Interest = 617*.03 = approximately 19 students may have been interested in Gen-Surgery but did not match.

Gen Surgery Data:
1437 total applicants (USMD + IA)
**IA = Independent Applicants (DO+IMG+FMG)

USMD
Total # Applicants = 945
Total # Matched = 804
Match Rate = 85.1%

DO
Total # DO Match for both Categorical + Preliminary = 46
Total # DO Applicants = Total # Matched + Estimated # Unmatched = 46 + 19 = 65
Estimated Match Rate = 70.1%

IA (subtracting DO)
Total # Match = 172 - 46 = 126
Total # Unmatched = 320 - 19 = 301
Total # FMG+IMG Applicants = 427
Estimated Match Rate for FMG & IMG = 29.5%

2011 AOA Match Data for Gen-Surgery
Total # Positions Available = 104
Total # Matched = 102, leaving 2 spots unfilled.
Total # 1st Choice Unmatched = approximately 23 (Of the 169 applicants, 13.54% designated 1st choice only, if unmatched, then no gen-surg. They may have, however, matched in another surgery residency, or with ACGME, too many variables to statistically incorporate, so only using the worse case scenario where 13.54% of the 169 did not match because they only designated their number 1 choice, we get about 23 students).
Total # Applicants = 125
Match Rate = 81.6%

Factoring in 2011 AOA Match with 2011 ACGME Match for Gen-Surgery:
Total # DO Applicants = 46 (ACGME Match) + 19 (Estimated ACGME Unmatch) + 102 (AOA Match) + 23 (Estimated AOA Unmatch) = 190
Total # DO Match = 148
Match Rate = 77.9%

ACGME Gen-Surgery Estimated Match Rate
MD = 85.1%
DO = 70.1%

Total US Estimated Match Rate (AOA & ACGME)
MD = 85.1%
DO = 77.9%

 

[SurgeDO]

I don't see how this is a viable strategy considering cliquesh's number of those matching compared to applicant. Wouldn't a more viable strategy be to rank surgery programs in the AOA and then ranking a more DO friendly specialty in the ACGME?

not if your heart is set on surgery.

however, if you are more interested in just matching, i would see this as a more viable method.

 

[SurgeDO]

does anybody know what happens to the preliminary matchers after the first year?

 

[NontradCA]

Hey all, I kind-of-sort-of updated the data the best I could. Thanks SpecterGT for the heads up, completely missed that very important/key information womp. But that's the beauty of multiple heads working together (both MD and DO students 😍), to fine-tune the data the best we can with the little information we have. Keep in mind, however, that with any retrospective qualitative data analysis, you will come across variable after variable after variable after variable. The trick is to take into account only the variables you are able to semi-gather data for. The rest, although important to recognize, should be discounted, or else you'll continue down the endless rabbit hole of countless variables. Please let me know how else you would like to fine-tune the data so we can get the most accurate representation.

2011 ACGME NRMP Data:

Total # DO Applicants = 2,178
Total # DO Matched = 1,561
Total # DO Unmatched = 617

Student "interest" in specialty estimated by [#Matched into that specific specialty/Total #Matched]
Reasoning: the more students matching into a certain specialty can be loosely correlated with more students applying for that specific specialty, which in turn can be loosely correlated with students having more of an interest in that specific specialty.

DO students estimated interest in a specialty (I left out a few specialties for the sake of time).
19.8% for IM
18.6% for FM
14.5% for Peds
7.3% for Psych
3% for Gen Surgery
This seems to follow the general norm for DO students, as most tend to lean toward Primary Care.

Estimated # of Unmatched DOs applying for ACGME Gen Surgery = Total # Unmatched DOs * Likelihood of Gen-Surgery Interest = 617*.03 = approximately 19 students may have been interested in Gen-Surgery but did not match.

Gen Surgery Data:
1437 total applicants (USMD + IA)
**IA = Independent Applicants (DO+IMG+FMG)

USMD
Total # Applicants = 945
Total # Matched = 804
Match Rate = 85.1%

DO
Total # DO Match for both Categorical + Preliminary = 46
Total # DO Applicants = Total # Matched + Estimated # Unmatched = 46 + 19 = 65
Estimated Match Rate = 70.1%

IA (subtracting DO)
Total # Match = 172 - 46 = 126
Total # Unmatched = 320 - 19 = 301
Total # FMG+IMG Applicants = 427
Estimated Match Rate for FMG & IMG = 29.5%

2011 AOA Match Data for Gen-Surgery
Total # Positions Available = 104
Total # Matched = 102, leaving 2 spots unfilled.
Total # 1st Choice Unmatched = approximately 23 (Of the 169 applicants, 13.54% designated 1st choice only, if unmatched, then no gen-surg. The remainder may have matched elsewhere with another surgery residency, or ACGME, too many variables to statistically incorporate, so only using the worse case scenario where 13.54% of the 169 did not match because they only designated their number 1 choice, we get about 23 students).
Total # Applicants = 125
Match Rate = 81.6%

Factoring in 2011 AOA Match with 2011 ACGME Match for Gen-Surgery:
Total # DO Applicants = 46 (ACGME Match) + 19 (Estimated ACGME Unmatch) + 102 (AOA Match) + 23 (Estimated AOA Unmatch) = 190
Total # DO Match = 148
Match Rate = 77.9%

ACGME Gen-Surgery Estimated Match Rate
MD = 85.1%
DO = 70.1%

Total US Estimated Match Rate (AOA & ACGME)
MD = 85.1%
DO = 77.9%

https://www.aamc.org/download/321562/data/2012factstable40.pdf

I don't know accurate that table is, but in 2011 459 DOs applied for acgme general surgery residencies. 28 DOs matched Acgme general surgery that year. 102 DOs matched AOA general surgery. Assuming all of the people that applied for AOA general surgery also applied to Acgme general surgery, which isn't true, then 130/459, or 28%, DOs that wanted general surgery got it.

You should keep in mind that the average DO applicant is not as good as the average MD applicant, at least on paper (lower board scores or no usmle at all, little research, unimpressive LORs). My classmates that had a pretty typical MD application for general surgery matched a decent state university programs without much difficulties. So even though it's useful to look at all of these statistics, you cannot really compare an average DO to the average MD.

Can someone chime in and explain the discrepancy here?

 

[cliquesh]

does anybody know what happens to the preliminary matchers after the first year?

In general, they do not lead to anything. Preliminary surgery is a 1 year intership that is filled with people who did not match or people who matched pgy2 positions, like radiology, anesthesiology, or PM&R.

In terms of internships, preliminary surgery is, by far, the worst. Transitional year is the best (most cushy), then preliminary medicine, then preliminary surgery.

 

[SpecterGT260]

ah, i understand now. i did not know what contiguous ranks were or what they meant.

Its a commonly overlooked stat 👍

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[SpecterGT260]

does anybody know what happens to the preliminary matchers after the first year?

They decide after a year to keep you or not. If not, I believe you SOAP

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[playaodamonth]

Can someone chime in and explain the discrepancy here?

My data is from 2011 match. That data with the 400+ applicants is 2012 data.

 

[GypsyHummus]

So what are some surgical specialties that are unrealistic for DOs to match into? ENT? Optho?

 

[cliquesh]

Can someone chime in and explain the discrepancy here?

The numbers on that link are wrong, I think.

Why do I say they are wrong? If you look at https://www.aamc.org/download/321562/data/2012factstable40.pdf it says there were 2920 USMD applicants for general surgery. However, according to http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf, 830 USMDs matched general surgery and 205 USMDs did not match general surgery. So the numbers don't add up.

 

[HalfListic]

In general, they do not lead to anything. Preliminary surgery is a 1 year intership that is filled with people who did not match or people who matched pgy2 positions, like radiology, anesthesiology, or PM&R.

In terms of internships, preliminary surgery is, by far, the worst. Transitional year is the best (most cushy), then preliminary medicine, then preliminary surgery.

Can you, or anyone, explain the difference between a prelim and a transitional year? Why someone would (need to) do either?

 

[NontradCA]

My data is from 2011 match. That data with the 400+ applicants is 2012 data.

Doesn't really make sense. Your table says 190 applicants. How does it jump to 450+ the next year?

 

[SpecterGT260]

So what are some surgical specialties that are unrealistic for DOs to match into? ENT? Optho?

None. The AOA has all of those, I believe. Just realize you must be at or near the top of the applicant pile as the number of seats drops dramatically. ACGME is pretty unlikely.

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[NontradCA]

The numbers on that link are WRONG. I would discard all of the stats I presented. I apologize.

Why do I say they are wrong? If you look at https://www.aamc.org/download/321562/data/2012factstable40.pdf it says there were 2920 USMD applicants for general surgery. However, according to http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf, 830 USMDs matched general surgery and 205 USMDs did not match general surgery. So the numbers don't add up.

Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. But why did the aamc put out wrong info?

 

[HalfListic]

None. The AOA has all of those, I believe. Just realize you must be at or near the top of the applicant pile as the number of seats drops dramatically. ACGME is pretty unlikely.

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see specters not all bad.


But, yeah, there are ACGME residencies that are pretty much out reach for DO students, but I cant think of any specialty that is out of reach for a top DO candidate.

 

[cliquesh]

So what are some surgical specialties that are unrealistic for DOs to match into? ENT? Optho?

Acgme and AOA ENT, urology, neurosurgery, Opthamology.

Acgme orthopedics.

There were 20 AOA ENT, 17 urology, 16 ophtho, and 14 neurosurgery spots offered this year in the AOA match. There were 4913 DO graduates this year. If you want to do surgery as a DO, AOA general surgery and AOA orthopedics are your best bet.

 

[SpecterGT260]

see specters not all bad.


But, yeah, there are ACGME residencies that are pretty much out reach for DO students, but I cant think of any specialty that is out of reach for a top DO candidate.

The thing I appreciate most here is the correct spelling of my name

Spectre/Spector

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[GypsyHummus]

I'm surprised there is only 104 spots for general surgery.

 

[cliquesh]

Can you, or anyone, explain the difference between a prelim and a transitional year? Why someone would (need to) do either?

For some specialities, like anesthesia, you can match into a post graduate year 2 (pgy2) spot instead of a Pgy1 spot. This is called an advanced spot instead of a cateogrical postion. As a result, you have to find an intership (either a transitional year, preliminary medicine, or preliminary surgery spot) for your first year, and when that's done you go onto your residency for pgy2,3,4, or however many years your residency is.

Not all residencies are like this, though. My anesthesiology residency, for instance, is a categorical residency, so my pgy1 is integrated with the rest of my residency.

A transitional year is an intership where you work on a variety of services, but you really don't belong to one, as a result it can be an enjoyable, relaxed intern year with little call. You may end up doing a few months of ICU, a month or 2 of medicine, a month of surgery, a month of Emergency medicine, a month of Ob/gyn and rest are electives.

Preliminary medicine is mostly medicine, so like 5 months of medicine, 2 months of icu, 2 month of surgery, 1 month of EM, and the rest electives.

Preliminary surgery is the same as medicine, but switch the medicine months with surgery.

 

[playaodamonth]

I'm surprised there is only 104 spots for general surgery.

Most DO students go primary care...not so much gen surg. Plus AOA residencies generally aren't funded well compared to ACGME. If you have to limit residency spots, better limit the ones not high in demand. Hopefully this all changes if the merger goes through.

 

[HalfListic]

For some specialities, like anesthesia, you can match into a post graduate year 2 (pgy2) spot instead of a Pgy1 spot. This is called an advanced spot instead of a cateogrical postion. As a result, you have to find an intership (either a transitional year, preliminary medicine, or preliminary surgery spot) for your first year, and when that's done you go onto your residency for pgy2,3,4, or however many years your residency is.

Not all residencies are like this, though. My anesthesiology residency, for instance, is a categorical residency, so my pgy1 is integrated with the rest of my residency.

👍 Danke schön

 

[K31]

The numbers on that link are wrong, I think.

Why do I say they are wrong? If you look at https://www.aamc.org/download/321562/data/2012factstable40.pdf it says there were 2920 USMD applicants for general surgery. However, according to http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf, 830 USMDs matched general surgery and 205 USMDs did not match general surgery. So the numbers don't add up.

Charting Outcomes only uses includes those who rank a specialty first in their analysis. So the 2920 number would include all those who want plastics, ortho, uro, ENT, etc. but throw in some gen surg programs as backup. As long as they rank at least one program in their preferred specialty over GS programs they won't be included in the Charting Outcomes analysis, even if they ultimately match GS.

 

[playaodamonth]

Charting Outcomes only uses includes those who rank a specialty first in their analysis. So the 2920 number would include all those who want plastics, ortho, uro, ENT, etc. but throw in some gen surg programs as backup. As long as they rank at least one program in their preferred specialty over GS programs they won't be included in the Charting Outcomes analysis, even if they ultimately match GS.

Makes sense. 👍 for the clarification

 

[SpecterGT260]

The numbers on that link are wrong, I think.

Why do I say they are wrong? If you look at https://www.aamc.org/download/321562/data/2012factstable40.pdf it says there were 2920 USMD applicants for general surgery. However, according to http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf, 830 USMDs matched general surgery and 205 USMDs did not match general surgery. So the numbers don't add up.

They don't have a separate prelim category in the AAMC table. For 2012 there were 2300-2400 USMD applicants and ~1300 matched

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf Page 3

 

[survivordo]

I don't see how this is a viable strategy considering cliquesh's number of those matching compared to applicant. Wouldn't a more viable strategy be to rank surgery programs in the AOA and then ranking a more DO friendly specialty in the ACGME?

If you wanna do surgery you wanna do surgery. Chances are someone is going to go either AOA or ACGME, not try and go for both. I'm just saying this could be an option.

Personally I just went for AOA because I knew I would match and was happy with the programs on my rank list w/o having to deal with the anxiety of going through ACGME.

Survivor DO

 

[Back 5]

If you wanna do surgery you wanna do surgery. Chances are someone is going to go either AOA or ACGME, not try and go for both. I'm just saying this could be an option.

Personally I just went for AOA because I knew I would match and was happy with the programs on my rank list w/o having to deal with the anxiety of going through ACGME.

Survivor DO

Do you feel you will receive quality training? I think orthojoe posted previously where he felt like DO Ortho's were better surgeons, more hands on time. I believe he had both AOA and ACGME interviews for Ortho as well.

 

[HalfListic]

Do you feel you will receive quality training? I think orthojoe posted previously where he felt like DO Ortho's were better surgeons, more hands on time. I believe he had both AOA and ACGME interviews for Ortho as well.

I know this question is meant well, and its not even your comment Im talking about, but I think it would do everyone some good to stop comparing one to the other. its exhausting.

Cant it just be, "do we get good training?"

Not, we are better/they are better

 

[SpecterGT260]

I know this question is meant well, and its not even your comment Im talking about, but I think it would do everyone some good to stop comparing one to the other. its exhausting.

Cant it just be, "do we get good training?"

Not, we are better/they are better

See? Its constant. And from all sides. Exhausting is a good word.

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