LOR advice

[Arista.MD]

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Hi,

I started a thread with this question on the pre-allo and I did not really got an answer to my question.

I am in a difficult situation and I have really no idea what to do about it.
I graduated in 2000, and started to work on a contract for a biotech company, then after 6 months I was offered a position in the same company, different department. At the interview I told my boss that I wanted to go back to school in after 2-3 years and then we never discussed this until recently when I told him that I intend to start applying to school etc. He really seemed very shocked, even mad for a few seconds, then he seemed ok, and when I asked him if he can write me a strong letter for MSTP programs he said yes.
From his reaction though, I am thinking that he is upset that I want to go away/ change careers. I know someone whose boss got mad when she went back to school and gave her a bad letter just to get back at her for leaving (even though he said that he was going to write something good)

I am in doubt about his letter and I don't know what to do. I need some advice on this, can anyone please help?!

Thank you very much.

 

[psyuk]

i think med schools will expect a letter of rec from your research boss especially since you are a mstp candidate, so you have no choice but to get one from him.

 

[chief wiggum]

I was in the same situation when I left my co. This is an interesting situation. Do I ask my boss for an LOR when he's not happy about my leaving?

Anyone who's been anybody's boss for any period of time has had to deal with people leaving. It happens all the time. In particular, good employees leave. They're in demand, and they have lots of ideas, so they try different careers and go back to school. Chances are, your boss has seen it before. He'd rather have you working for him, but he knows that your heart is elsewhere. You've done a good job for him, so why shouldn't he write you a good letter?

The other side of the coin: What does he have to gain by writing you a defaming letter? Does he get revenge on you for leaving his company? If he has any ethics at all, he knows that he can't honestly say bad things about you. Furthermore, if he has any pride at all, he knows that if he recommends you, your success makes him look good. Why shouldn't he talk you up? You work for him. Doesn't he hire good people?


So, any way you slice it, you're not in a bad position here. Don't worry about it.

 

[superdevil]

In my opinion (WARNING! WARNING!), since you told your boss your intentions ahead of time, he should be understanding, and Chief Wiggum has some good points as well.

Unfourtunately, I have seen firsthand how vindictive some employers/professors can be, and I've personally had one instructor literally blackmail me with threats concerning the qualityof a letter of recommendation (seriously!). Only you truly know your situation.

You really should get a letter from your boss, but if you're that concerned, here's a possible trick: tell him that you're also applying to non-NIH funded programs and that you would like two or three copies of the letter to submit for third-party scholarships. If he gives them to you and they're no good, ABORT! This doesn't always work, but its worth a shot.

I think you'll be fine, though. Good Luck!

 

[Arista.MD]

Thank you very much for your answers.
My question is how the recommendations for non-NIH funded programs are working? Wouldn't he want to know the address of the program etc. What do I tell him when I ask for the extra copies and he asks me for addresses?

Again, thank you for advice.

 

[superdevil]

You are very wise, Dana-doc! If you truly have NO interest in any non-NIH programs, then the 'scheme' becomes all the more difficult! If you find it affordable (or even worth the effort) you may consider applying to just one non-NIH school for the purpose of getting your hands on a letter-if you are sufficiently worried.

There is still a slight chance that you could procure a copy under the pretenses of a scholarship/fellowship or another avenue presuming you apply only to MSTP's (your interest would have to drive your creativity-I am by no means suggesting ANYTHING unethical, however). Perhaps a little faith will go a long way, though.

Good luck, I'm sure things will turn out fine! 🙂

 

[magpie]

Originally posted by superdevil
You are very wise, Dana-doc! If you truly have NO interest in any non-NIH programs, then the 'scheme' becomes all the more difficult! If you find it affordable (or even worth the effort) you may consider applying to just one non-NIH school for the purpose of getting your hands on a letter-if you are sufficiently worried.

There is still a slight chance that you could procure a copy under the pretenses of a scholarship/fellowship or another avenue presuming you apply only to MSTP's (your interest would have to drive your creativity-I am by no means suggesting ANYTHING unethical, however). Perhaps a little faith will go a long way, though.

Good luck, I'm sure things will turn out fine! 🙂

I guess I'm missing something here. It is not obvious to me that the letters of recommendation procedure would be different for an non-NIH funded program. Or, for that matter, for a scholarship. That is, the letters are sent directly to the school or institution you are applying to. Can you elucidate?

I would question a person's ethics who would resort to such chicanery to learn the contents of a letter. This is probably worse than breaking into the supervior's files to read a copy of the letter. Why bother with involving the supervisor at all? You could just steal a supply of his/her letterhead and write glowing letters about yourself and forge the supervisor's signature. That would ensure that you get exactly what you want (if not entirely what you deserve).

 

[Arista.MD]

Trying to find out what goes in your file is not unethical. Everyone that applies right now to medical school or MSTP programs is trying to fulfill their life's dream, it is something that most of us had worked toward a good part of our lives and have put in a lot of effort and took a lot of time away from our families.

I think that what it is really unethical is for a supervisor to write derogatory comments about an employee only because the employee wants to change career.

I strongly believe that we should be able to find out what goes into our files because it is not fair that after so much work we should not be able to attend the school of our choice because of a supervisor who is trying to sabotage us.

And I also want to say that I covered for my supervisor many times, I did all the research for him, and I pushed a product from my research into development. I am sure he does not want me to go, but I still will, because working here is not something that I want to do for the rest of life. Actually I solved the problem even simpler, I talked to some people around who told me that I should not seek a recommendation from him, because of the way he is. Along these same lines, does anyone know how to tell schools that you cannot get a rec from your boss?

And magpie I really hope you will never have a supervisor that wants to sabotage you for leaving your job to go back to school. First of all it can be a very stressful work relationship and second of all, and most important, it can ruin your life because you will not be able to get into medical school with a bad LOR. If you have a bad supervisor, he will write you a bad LOR even if you DO NOT deserve it.

 

[superdevil]

I don't see anything wrong with knowing what your so-called "advocates" say about you in LORs. After all, it could be life-altering.

Also, I haven't personally tried what I mentioned in my first post, I just read it somewhere and thought it would be a novel idea that I could pass along to someone in need of a little help.

Like Dana-doc said, I hope you're never put over a barrel like this, Magpie. It's quite unpleasant.

 

[chief wiggum]

"Trying to find out what goes in your file is not unethical. Everyone that applies right now to medical school or MSTP programs is trying to fulfill their life's dream, it is something that most of us had worked toward a good part of our lives and have put in a lot of effort and took a lot of time away from our families."

So, the end justifies the means, basically?

This is disgusting. Trying to find out what goes in your file, is NOT unethical. However, lying to find out what goes in your file IS unethical and you know it.

Maybe MSTP is your life's dream, but don't let it color your discernment. Just read what you wrote above and think about it. You can justify anything you want with words. Who could even argue? You've worked hard, so who could blame you? Whatever clears your conscience.

You'll have plenty of opportunities in your career to sacrifice values at the alter of success. Most people do it, and those who don't are less successful for their morality. You decide what you want to be. If you side with the immoral majority, you'll gain some measure of ephemeral earthly esteem. If you don't, you'll have made a stand for that which is GOOD, that which you, as a hopeful PHYSICIAN profess to embrace and encourage.

This last part is a very discouraging paradox for me. As I've read about what ad coms want in applicants, I've seen quotes about 'altruism' and 'compassion'. Those things are obviously good, but I don't see that so much in applicants. Rather, the applicants engage in certain activities to present a facade of these righteous qualities. In the end, for the wide majority, it's about doing what they must to get where they want to be in life. In the end, it all has very little to do with 'our fellow man'. Altruism is dead by now, if it ever lived at all, in this country.

 

[Arista.MD]

I was just arguing that people who are applying should have a legal way to find out what it is in their file. I maintain my opinion that we should be informed about what goes into the file because all of us work hard to get into medical school. I did not say that people should lie about it.

So I take it that you believe that if your supervisor wants to write derogatory comments about you, even though you do not deserve it, this should be ok?

 

[Nuel]

Originally posted by chief wiggum

This last part is a very discouraging paradox for me. As I've read about what ad coms want in applicants, I've seen quotes about 'altruism' and 'compassion'. Those things are obviously good, but I don't see that so much in applicants. Rather, the applicants engage in certain activities to present a facade of these righteous qualities. In the end, for the wide majority, it's about doing what they must to get where they want to be in life. In the end, it all has very little to do with 'our fellow man'. Altruism is dead by now, if it ever lived at all, in this country.

Chief Wiggum, truer words were never spoken. I could bet my soul on this, but not too sure now as there could be an altruistic 0.01% of applicants out there.

 

[pathdr2b]

I personally don't see anything wrong with knowing what's going into your file and even hinting that it's immoral is a bit ludacris to me. As a matter of fact, many graduate school applications/letter of recommendations allow applicants to review the letters writtten for them once they matriculate. On the other hand, if you have ANY doubts about the type of letter you may get from your supervisor, find someone else at the company to write a letter on your behalf. This is EXACTY what i did when i left the pharmaceutical industry last year and it worked just fine for me.

Under NO circumstances would I have someone write a letter for me unless I was sure it was going to be a great letter.

Good luck!

 

[oyoyo]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
I personally don't see anything wrong with knowing what's going into your file and even hinting that it's immoral is a bit ludacris to me.
Good luck!

pathdr2b --

I don't want to be the grammar police, but I think the word you're looking for is ludicrous. Ludacris is the rapper...

 

[magpie]

Originally posted by dana-doc
I was just arguing that people who are applying should have a legal way to find out what it is in their file. I maintain my opinion that we should be informed about what goes into the file because all of us work hard to get into medical school. I did not say that people should lie about it.

So I take it that you believe that if your supervisor wants to write derogatory comments about you, even though you do not deserve it, this should be ok?

My reply was directed at Superdevil. I objected to the unethical methods s/he suggested. It could be that s/he was being facetious, but some folks have pretty strange ideas about what is kosher. I thought those comments were irresponsible, and begged for a reply.

You do have a legal right to see what is in your employment file and/or your student file; those rights are granted by various employment laws (see http://biz.findlaw.com/human/nolo/ency/5F59F055-9462-49B3-AA3F7925A394E87D.html) and FERPA. You should check with the personnel office of your company to see what their policy is. A

As far as letters of recommendation go, most people waive their rights to view these letters. However, you are not required to waive your rights; you can have non-confidential letters sent in support of your application. Doing so would allow you to read what is written by your supervisor. Whether you should do this is another question. Given your concerns about the letter this guy might write, it might be best not to waive your right to see the letter.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by oyoyo
pathdr2b --

I don't want to be the grammar police, but I think the word you're looking for is ludicrous. Ludacris is the rapper...

No I meant Ludacris the rapper (as in I using it as a homonym(sp?)). Gotta let you young folks know that the "way over 30 crowd" is with the program!😉

 

[superdevil]

For the last time, I have never tried that of which I spoke, and I was only presenting a LAST RESORT to someone who seemed to be CORNERED.

I'm very sorry that my post was so inadvertantly offensive. I'll try to do better next time🙂 .