LOR - when do u call it a good one

[maverick_pkg]

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HI guys
I got an opportunity to do an elective at an Ivy league Hospital in US few years back. I got 2 letters, one of which was from the PD.

When I had asked the PD if he could write an exceptional letter, he was pleased, and wrote me a letter which was handed to me by his assistant. This assistant while giving the letter that I must have done something outstanding to get such an exceptional letter from him.

Now the problem is that the letter is quite small with just 8 lines. It does not mention any specific incidents, only generalities and finishes with "I recommend him most highly"

From what I have read about LORs, the good ones should be a page long and talk about specific issues.

Whats your say on this letter? Will it be counterproductive to use it? My second letter is full page with specific incidents as it should be

 

[surg]

I would go ahead and use it. It is hard to judge a letter without seeing it in its entirety. You are correct that length and specificity lend credence to a letter, however if his assistant feels that this is an exceptional letter for him, it probably is. If he/she is well known, his/her penchant for writing very short letters probably is too. A letter that is positive about you from a well-known person isn't going to hurt you. Maybe you should consider sending it as a 4th letter and get 3 others though.

 

[Smurfette]

I would NOT use it if it is really short and is several years old like it sounds like it may be...hard to tell if this is the case from your post. I would try to get a LOR written in the last year or so, otherwise PDs might wonder why you have an old letter instead of newer LORs from people who have worked with you more recently.

 

[mcindoe]

however if his assistant feels that this is an exceptional letter for him, it probably is.

Yes, but this assistant won't be the one reading through and evaluating the application when this person applies. It doesn't matter what the assistant says, your goal is to impress anyone and everyone on the receiving end of your application that you are exceptional. Big names are well-known for their academic achievements or leadership, not they're letter of rec writing style.

Some may argue that brevity is the soul of wit, but not when it comes to letters of rec. Short letters suggest the writer had very little to say about you, didn't want to take the time to write a thorough letter on your behalf, says nice things about you but provides no details or examples to substantiate these statements, all of which begs the question: what isn't the writer saying about you and why.

Whether it's valid or not, terse letters are one of many LOR red flags. Other red flags are paragraphs that regurgitate information that's readily available on your CV but are included for filler; closing lines that say, "if you have any questions, feel free to call me", etc. Consider yourself lucky that you even got to see the letter; usually you have to waive your right to see them.

 

[maverick_pkg]

well this letter is 2 years old. I am an IMG, and got the chance to do an elective 2 yrs back. Have only 2 letters from US attendings, rest from my home country which I suppose dont hold much weight.

So now, if I dont use this letter, I will have only 1 LOR from a US attending, albeit a very good one. If I use this letter I will have 2 US LORs, of which one will be a very good one and the other will be this one.

so given my situation, is it better to go with just 1 very good US LOR or 2 LORs - 1 average and 1 very good?

 

[Celiac Plexus]

well this letter is 2 years old. I am an IMG, and got the chance to do an elective 2 yrs back. Have only 2 letters from US attendings, rest from my home country which I suppose dont hold much weight.

So now, if I dont use this letter, I will have only 1 LOR from a US attending, albeit a very good one. If I use this letter I will have 2 US LORs, of which one will be a very good one and the other will be this one.

so given my situation, is it better to go with just 1 very good US LOR or 2 LORs - 1 average and 1 very good?

use the letter since it sounds like you are hurting for letters from american surgeons.

although i tend to agree with mcindoe's assessment, your letter could just represent the idiosyncratic recommendation style of one surgeon. if the guy is very well-known, it may be enough to just have him give you a brief thumbs-up letter. we'll never know. but again, i don't think you have a choice. you have to use the letter since you don't have any other options.

best of luck.

 

[maverick_pkg]

use the letter since it sounds like you are hurting for letters from american surgeons.

although i tend to agree with mcindoe's assessment, your letter could just represent the idiosyncratic recommendation style of one surgeon. if the guy is very well-known, it may be enough to just have him give you a brief thumbs-up letter. we'll never know. but again, i don't think you have a choice. you have to use the letter since you don't have any other options.

best of luck.

thanks. Well, its a 6 line letter ending with "I recommend him to you most highly". He is the PD of one of the top 5 US hospitals. You think it would be wise of me to quote the letter or some more sentences here? Or should I just let it be and use it as I dont have many US letters to choose from

 

[SocialistMD]

Why not just ask for another letter? Ask for it under the pretense of "I want to be able to check the 'I waived the right to see the letter on AMCAS'." It will help to relieve the stress over length because you won't know how long this one is.

 

[maverick_pkg]

Why not just ask for another letter? Ask for it under the pretense of "I want to be able to check the 'I waived the right to see the letter on AMCAS'." It will help to relieve the stress over length because you won't know how long this one is.

well, it was an away rotation, been two years, haven't been in touch with the PD so what do I ask him. Any how, doubt he even remembers how I performed so what can he possbily add. He will write the same thing again or even worse. Guess I will stick to what I have and not get stressed 🙂

 

[neilc]

Whether it's valid or not, terse letters are one of many LOR red flags. Other red flags are... closing lines that say, "if you have any questions, feel free to call me"...

why is this a red flag? i have this closing on one of my strongest letters. very personal, he called and recommended me to his old program, etc...i am very confident that he intended to give me a great letter, and he did close with the call me line...

 

[JKP]

Does it make a significant difference in the quality of the letter?
Do program directors care otherwise?
Or do most surgeons tend to "call it as it is" regardless?
How would you know what is written otherwise unless you were given a copy of the letter.
Any opinions?

 

[mcindoe]

thanks. Well, its a 6 line letter ending with "I recommend him to you most highly". He is the PD of one of the top 5 US hospitals. You think it would be wise of me to quote the letter or some more sentences here? Or should I just let it be and use it as I dont have many US letters to choose from

If you wouldn't mind quoting the letter it'd be helpful, but of course these matters are very personal, so it's up to you. I'm curious to hear what else the writer had to say, and to see the whole thing would help put the details into context.

Again, it definitely helps to have a letter from a high-profile surgeon, but don't expect anyone to be familiar with his/her writing style. From what you've told us, it doesn't sound like the letter will hurt your application in any way, but I think the benefits will be marginal.

 

[mcindoe]

Does it make a significant difference in the quality of the letter?
Do program directors care otherwise?

Yes, it can. If you don't waive your right to see the letter, both the writer and the reader know that you've refused to relinquish your right to see the letter and this can burn you on both ends. The writer may feel like he has you hovering over his shoulder, watching every word, and may be reluctant to speak as candidly as he would have wanted. The reader will see that you didn't waive your right to read the letter, which may lead him to question or doubt how candid and honest the letter really is, because no one under those circumstances would feel comfortable writing anything negative knowing that the applicant might find out. The reader may wonder why you wouldn't trust the writer enough to waive your right to read it.

A letter of rec should be like a private, one-on-one conversation you'd have on the phone with a friend in which the subject is you. Think about the way you talk to your friends about some guy on the phone, and then think about how you'd talk to that person about the same guy, only this time in a restaurant with the guy sitting at the table with you. Even if you'd say the same thing in both scenarios, you'd feel much more comfortable trusting what this guy has to say if it's said in the former setting.

Bottom line: you don't want to do anything that might invite doubt or seem dubious, as it may easily distract from the content of the letter itself.

 

[mcindoe]

why is this a red flag? i have this closing on one of my strongest letters. very personal, he called and recommended me to his old program, etc...i am very confident that he intended to give me a great letter, and he did close with the call me line...

It's not a hard and fast rule...I should have clarified, I apologize. Basically, if you have a letter that's rather lukewarm, terse, deficient in details/examples, and/or leaves you with the feeling like you don't know the applicant any better than before you even read the letter, AND it ends with a "if you have any questions, feel free to call me" statement, I would consider that a red flag. The subtext of letters like that translates to "I had to write a letter for this guy, I didn't want to be mean and say no, but I don't really have much to say on his behalf. Since he'll probably read this letter anyway or someone will tell him what I said, I'll make sure that it appears nice so I don't hurt his feelings. If you really want to know what I think of him, call me and I'll tell you in confidence what a douchebag this guy really is."

I think you catch my drift.

 

[Dire Straits]

blah, letters of rec. just another part of the game. the only thing more pretentious is the personal statement. i can't wait until the day these little gestures are over and i can just do my job, get paid, and go home.

 

[neilc]

It's not a hard and fast rule...I should have clarified, I apologize. Basically, if you have a letter that's rather lukewarm, terse, deficient in details/examples, and/or leaves you with the feeling like you don't know the applicant any better than before you even read the letter, AND it ends with a "if you have any questions, feel free to call me" statement, I would consider that a red flag. The subtext of letters like that translates to "I had to write a letter for this guy, I didn't want to be mean and say no, but I don't really have much to say on his behalf. Since he'll probably read this letter anyway or someone will tell him what I said, I'll make sure that it appears nice so I don't hurt his feelings. If you really want to know what I think of him, call me and I'll tell you in confidence what a douchebag this guy really is."

I think you catch my drift.

thanks for the info! i was getting a bit nervous there...

 

[traumasurgeon]

Send the letter. Depending on who he is it might be enough. It sounds like the PD of an Ivy L school has probably written many letters in the past and other programs have read them. They will know a good letter from him compared to a so and so letter. All of his letters might be 3 lines but only a few highly recommended. It not like its a paragraph from Dr Doe from the local surgicenter on the corner.

 

[maverick_pkg]

Send the letter. Depending on who he is it might be enough. It sounds like the PD of an Ivy L school has probably written many letters in the past and other programs have read them. They will know a good letter from him compared to a so and so letter. All of his letters might be 3 lines but only a few highly recommended. It not like its a paragraph from Dr Doe from the local surgicenter on the corner.

Ya your logic makes sense. Thanks 😀