LOR written by yourself and mentor/professor signing it

[PassThatMcat]

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I think the title explains it all. For my last LOR, my mentor gave me a blank copy with his private pratice logo on it and said write whatever you think will impress the admissions committee's the most and I'll sign it.
I don't think it is him being lazy or not knowing well enough as I've worked with him for 3 and half years, but that he works 6 days a week and on his day off I don't think he feels like writting a LOR.

Has anyone else has this happen to them? If so, where do you start about writting a LOR about yourself haha? I almost feel like I've been given a blank check with write however much you want, but at the same tiem I don't want to over kill the letter with too much fluff.

ETA: This is my strongest and most influential "writer" for my 5 LOR's (he is the clinical director of opthalamology at my first choice school.)

 

[circulus vitios]

I had a professor do the same. It's really tough because you can either s your own d and feel like a huge tool, or you can write something incredibly generic. I did the latter. In retrospect, I wish I hadn't. 🙁

edit: More or less, "circulus vitios is one of the best students I've taught. I'm sure he would make a good physician, blah blah blah. Would recommend with no second thoughts."

 

[Geebeejay]

I think the title explains it all. For my last LOR, my mentor gave me a blank copy with his private pratice logo on it and said write whatever you think will impress the admissions committee's the most and I'll sign it.
I don't think it is him being lazy or not knowing well enough as I've worked with him for 3 and half years, but that he works 6 days a week and on his day off I don't think he feels like writting a LOR.

Has anyone else has this happen to them? If so, where do you start about writting a LOR about yourself haha? I almost feel like I've been given a blank check with write however much you want, but at the same tiem I don't want to over kill the letter with too much fluff.

ETA: This is my strongest and most influential "writer" for my 5 LOR's (he is the clinical director of opthalamology at my first choice school.)

Kind of a shame he's doing this. Besides the "ethical concerns" it may or may not raise, he's written many LORs before I'm sure, and you haven't. No matter how much you "S your own D", his rec would probably come out better.

 

[mimelim]

This happens from time to time. I did it once and have seen a lot of medical students get told to do this for residency LOR. In general I try to get one of the fellows who worked with the med students to write the letter and have the attending sign it. If this is applicable to you (post-doc, fellow or whoever you have worked with in the lab or whatever) I would recommend asking them to help you write it or to write it and have the PI sign it.

If you are going to end up writing yourself, you want it to accent your PS and description of the activities associated with you spending time with this guy. Pick 3-4 qualities that are desirable in medical student applicants and hit on them repeatedly from multiple angles. This is a great opportunity to make sure things in your application tie together very nicely.

 

[PassThatMcat]

This happens from time to time. I did it once and have seen a lot of medical students get told to do this for residency LOR. In general I try to get one of the fellows who worked with the med students to write the letter and have the attending sign it. If this is applicable to you (post-doc, fellow or whoever you have worked with in the lab or whatever) I would recommend asking them to help you write it or to write it and have the PI sign it.

If you are going to end up writing yourself, you want it to accent your PS and description of the activities associated with you spending time with this guy. Pick 3-4 qualities that are desirable in medical student applicants and hit on them repeatedly from multiple angles. This is a great opportunity to make sure things in your application tie together very nicely.

Thanks for the advice doctor. I am not going to try to over kill it, but i definately know the weaker aspects of my application more than my letter writer and could incorporate some positive into the letter discretely. Also, I am going to have my family that is in medicine look over it before I give it to him to sign and submit.
It's just hard, if not impossible, to be sooo biased as you are writing about yourself and trying to stand out from a pack of competition that is identical in much of our applications.

 

[Praefectus]

He could be doing it as a test. If you're a little too over the top with your platitudes, he might write his own letter with less enthusiasm.

Or he could just be really busy.

 

[PassThatMcat]

He could be doing it as a test. If you're a little too over the top with your platitudes, he might write his own letter with less enthusiasm.

Or he could just be really busy.

That is a great point you bring up and I don't know how to say this without sounding like a douche, but he is a close family friend (close as in comes over for holiday's and family events.)
So I doubt he is testing me. He has been really busy lately and I should have asked him for it months ago. I think he doesn't want to write me a sub par letter and trust me enough for him to just sig it.

 

[jl lin]

I'd write him a genuine and respectful letter saying why it is important for me that he writes it . It doesn't have to be long, just genuine.

The whole deal of you writing your own lor is bogus. You must carefully and respectfully show him that you are not OK with doing this. If you write it, it defeats it's purpose, and it is not ethical.

Now, if he wants you to write out what you feel are your strengths and challenges, that's different, but he still needs to reflect and write his own thoughts in the LOR.

 

[cinamin]

That is a great point you bring up and I don't know how to say this without sounding like a douche, but he is a close family friend (close as in comes over for holiday's and family events.)
So I doubt he is testing me. He has been really busy lately and I should have asked him for it months ago. I think he doesn't want to write me a sub par letter and trust me enough for him to just sig it.

I don't think he is trying to test you... he is probably just busy and assumes you can take care of this business yourself... my boss did the same to me... and I felt really uncomfortable. I ended up asking her in a really nice way to write it herself... the major concern is that you are writing essays for secondaries and your PS and everyone has a distinct writing style.. whether it be the words you use most frequently, grammar, style, etc. .so you might want a friend to write it for you (not kidding) and then tell them what you want it to say.. you can't have the same writing style as your PS and secondaries... and it's really hard to manipulate your writing style unless of course you are a novelist. The adcoms will think something is fishy if your strongest LOR looks and sounds like your PS, secondaries, etc.

 

[jl lin]

I don't think he is trying to test you... he is probably just busy and assumes you can take care of this business yourself... my boss did the same to me... and I felt really uncomfortable. I ended up asking her in a really nice way to write it herself... the major concern is that you are writing essays for secondaries and your PS and everyone has a distinct writing style.. whether it be the words you use most frequently, grammar, style, etc. .so you might want a friend to write it for you (not kidding) and then tell them what you want it to say.. you can't have the same writing style as your PS and secondaries... and it's really hard to manipulate your writing style unless of course you are a novelist. The adcoms will think something is fishy if your strongest LOR looks and sounds like your PS, secondaries, etc.

OK, I get what you are saying too. . .and I'm not trying to be holier than thou, but doesn't it just strike people as being plain ole wrong?

I mean people get bent out of shape over the whole thing where you must include every course taken for your cGPA. Doesn't this kind of run along the same lines? Plus, how is anyone supposed to write what someone else is thinking? I mean, at least I can't read anyone else's mind.

The other thing is though, if you kind of insist that he/she writes the LOR, even in the nicest, most respectful way, and then he/she gets annoyed for having to do it, what if he or she decides at that point to penalize you in the letter for making him/her write it? This seems like a huge pain in the arse. I mean either the person is cool and will write it, being as fair as possible, or he/she won't. Their yes should be yes and their no, no. This is a most annoying situation.

I mean does he or she for some reason not feel right about recommending you? If so, he or she should have the gonads to say so. Why do people have to make things hard? I mean how long does it take to write a LOR?

I feel like the person has put you in a very bad position. If he doesn't want to write it, he should just be forthright about it. If he wants you to write your strengths and challenges, and then compare them with his assessment, that's another story. I'd clarify this with him (or her).

 

[Guero]

I think the title explains it all. For my last LOR, my mentor gave me a blank copy with his private pratice logo on it and said write whatever you think will impress the admissions committee's the most and I'll sign it.
I don't think it is him being lazy or not knowing well enough as I've worked with him for 3 and half years, but that he works 6 days a week and on his day off I don't think he feels like writting a LOR.

Has anyone else has this happen to them? If so, where do you start about writting a LOR about yourself haha? I almost feel like I've been given a blank check with write however much you want, but at the same tiem I don't want to over kill the letter with too much fluff.

ETA: This is my strongest and most influential "writer" for my 5 LOR's (he is the clinical director of opthalamology at my first choice school.)

It's not as unusal as you'd think. I had multiple mentors send me their letters and ask for suggestions. They just wanted to ensure they gave me the best letters possible and didn't miss anything. I only basically rewrote one of my letters and corrected her grammatical mistakes (grammar wasn't this prof's strong suit). Just be honest, don't inflate, and ask another mentor to look it over to see if it's too much.

 

[PassThatMcat]

It's not as unusal as you'd think. I had multiple mentors send me their letters and ask for suggestions. They just wanted to ensure they gave me the best letters possible and didn't miss anything. I only basically rewrote one of my letters and corrected her grammatical mistakes (grammar wasn't this prof's strong suit). Just be honest, don't inflate, and ask another mentor to look it over to see if it's too much.

After reading y'all's responses (and thank you'll who did) I feel like I am making a moral mistake writing it myself. I have written somewhat of a draft in bullet point form, and am going to ask him today if he can take it from there. I feel like I will be saving him time, also, at the same time being ethically in the right. Now the question is: how long is he going to take to write it? Maybe by christmas time when he comes over with his wife and kids haha.

 

[willen101383]

Good for you OP for taking the moral high road...however this situation is extremely common. Ive been offered this TWICE already this year and im only like halfway done with 3rd year. Maybe I am a bit more jaded than you, but in the cutthroat world that is med school admissions I would take any opportunity I can...because I know damn well that if another med student was offered that option they would take it. I personally know a few people I think would actually fellate an attending for a good rec so w/e. I think the way you handled the situation is a good compromise between respecting his time needs and your ethical beliefs.

 

[circulus vitios]

Good for you OP for taking the moral high road...however this situation is extremely common. Ive been offered this TWICE already this year and im only like halfway done with 3rd year. Maybe I am a bit more jaded than you, but in the cutthroat world that is med school admissions I would take any opportunity I can...because I know damn well that if another med student was offered that option they would take it. I personally know a few people I think would actually fellate an attending for a good rec so w/e. I think the way you handled the situation is a good compromise between respecting his time needs and your ethical beliefs.

How is writing one's own LOR taking the moral low road?

 

[PassThatMcat]

How is writing one's own LOR taking the moral low road?

It is not their work, so it would be in the most blunt way foraging a document. The LOR is suppose to be obviously be the writer's thoughts/opinions of you as a current student, person, and your potential as a medical student. I don't think anyone would write a LOR (about themselves) that would, in their opinion, be anything short of exagerating their accomplishments to stand out to medical school admission committee's. Sure, the professors, doctors, mentors do care about your future success as a future medical student and is the reason they are writing on our behalf, but not as much as I/you do. Just really a gray area topic IMO.

 

[NickNaylor]

It is not their work, so it would be in the most blunt way foraging a document. The LOR is suppose to be obviously be the writer's thoughts/opinions of you as a current student, person, and your potential as a medical student. I don't think anyone would write a LOR (about themselves) that would, in their opinion, be anything short of exagerating their accomplishments to stand out to medical school admission committee's. Sure, the professors, doctors, mentors do care about your future success as a future medical student and is the reason they are writing on our behalf, but not as much as I/you do. Just really a gray area topic IMO.

It's not really a gray area. I really don't see what the problem is barring outright lies about yourself that the professor would have no ability to verify. Even if you did include that the professor would ideally read the letter and make appropriate corrections before signing it.

(sent from my phone)

 

[debvz]

After reading y'all's responses (and thank you'll who did) I feel like I am making a moral mistake writing it myself. I have written somewhat of a draft in bullet point form, and am going to ask him today if he can take it from there. I feel like I will be saving him time, also, at the same time being ethically in the right. Now the question is: how long is he going to take to write it? Maybe by christmas time when he comes over with his wife and kids haha.

Years ago, I was in a similar situation. I asked my boss of 3 years for a letter, with whom I had an excellent working relationship, and gave him plenty of lead time. Getting towards the time I needed the letter finished and submitted, he told me to go ahead and write it, and he'd sign it. I didn't feel comfortable with that, for similar reasons as you've stated above.

So, he again said he'd do the letter. When I received a copy of it, it was an obvious cut and paste from a letter he'd written for someone else previously, containing details which pertained to the previous recommendee. It was a positive letter and my application was successful, but I was understandably disappointed with the situation.

I thought i was taking the high road, but be careful. You might not get what you were asking for.

 

[PassThatMcat]

Years ago, I was in a similar situation. I asked my boss of 3 years for a letter, with whom I had an excellent working relationship, and gave him plenty of lead time. Getting towards the time I needed the letter finished and submitted, he told me to go ahead and write it, and he'd sign it. I didn't feel comfortable with that, for similar reasons as you've stated above.

So, he again said he'd do the letter. When I received a copy of it, it was an obvious cut and paste from a letter he'd written for someone else previously, containing details which pertained to the previous recommendee. It was a positive letter and my application was successful, but I was understandably disappointed with the situation.

I thought i was taking the high road, but be careful. You might not get what you were asking for.

Again, thank you for the advice doctor. I feel like I've done 90 percent of the work for the letter, and if he could just take 20 minutes this week to finalize it and put in maybe something I missed on or that he would like to remove, I would be very happy. Thanks for the reply again.

 

[jl lin]

How is writing one's own LOR taking the moral low road?

IDK, it seems clear to me. It's like writing your own job reference. No employer I ever worked for would be cool with that.

Hmm. Frankly, if this is "the way it usually works," the reference becomes essentially meaningless. Why would adcoms give theses LORs any credence at all?

 

[P Diddy]

I think the title explains it all. For my last LOR, my mentor gave me a blank copy with his private pratice logo on it and said write whatever you think will impress the admissions committee's the most and I'll sign it.
I don't think it is him being lazy or not knowing well enough as I've worked with him for 3 and half years, but that he works 6 days a week and on his day off I don't think he feels like writting a LOR.

Has anyone else has this happen to them? If so, where do you start about writting a LOR about yourself haha? I almost feel like I've been given a blank check with write however much you want, but at the same tiem I don't want to over kill the letter with too much fluff.

ETA: This is my strongest and most influential "writer" for my 5 LOR's (he is the clinical director of opthalamology at my first choice school.)

You have the opportunity to write your own letter and don't want to take it? What's wrong with you?

p diddy

 

[circulus vitios]

IDK, it seems clear to me. It's like writing your own job reference. No employer I ever worked for would be cool with that.

Hmm. Frankly, if this is "the way it usually works," the reference becomes essentially meaningless. Why would adcoms give theses LORs any credence at all?

You're assuming that they give credence to LORs in the first place. LORs, no matter how amazing and powerful you may think they are, are all derivative and pointless: "X is a great person. Here are a few examples of X being a great person. X would make a great medical student and doctor, and I recommend him with no reservations. Sincerely, Y." It's just a check box to filter out the weirdos, and even then the average weirdo could still get a professor to write an incredible generic LOR.

 

[basedbear]

You're assuming that they give credence to LORs in the first place. LORs, no matter how amazing and powerful you may think they are, are all derivative and pointless: "X is a great person. Here are a few examples of X being a great person. X would make a great medical student and doctor, and I recommend him with no reservations. Sincerely, Y." It's just a check box to filter out the weirdos, and even then the average weirdo could still get a professor to write an incredible generic LOR.

I don't think it's pointless. I feel my LORs helped me out tremendously to get interview invites...

 

[mimelim]

You're assuming that they give credence to LORs in the first place. LORs, no matter how amazing and powerful you may think they are, are all derivative and pointless: "X is a great person. Here are a few examples of X being a great person. X would make a great medical student and doctor, and I recommend him with no reservations. Sincerely, Y." It's just a check box to filter out the weirdos, and even then the average weirdo could still get a professor to write an incredible generic LOR.

Just in case anyone was wondering. This is dead wrong.

People often over estimate how good their LOR are. I can directly quote a Wash U faculty adcom... "Being described as 'nice' is a death knell. They obviously didn't have enough to write about them." But that does not diminish how much a LOR can change an application. If you read/write/review enough LOR you can easily pick them out. If you have zero exposure to LOR then it is easy to see how you would have limited insight into the topic. Of course to have a good LOR you have to have actually done something worthwhile/productive in the eyes of the writer and reader, so obviously if you are just filling out check boxes that isn't happening.

As a personal note, I had an interviewer at Hopkins tell me straight out that I was interviewing largely because of a single letter.

 

[XCourtSmash]

I also think letters are important.

I feel that helping someone write a letter by giving them your cv/resume/bullet points is fine. Writing an entire letter for them and having them sign it, no. I personally wouldn't even feel comfortable with that. Best solution would be giving them a bullet point list and ask them to please write it as you feel unethical if you wrote the entire letter yourself.

 

[circulus vitios]

Just in case anyone was wondering. This is dead wrong.

People often over estimate how good their LOR are. I can directly quote a Wash U faculty adcom... "Being described as 'nice' is a death knell. They obviously didn't have enough to write about them." But that does not diminish how much a LOR can change an application. If you read/write/review enough LOR you can easily pick them out. If you have zero exposure to LOR then it is easy to see how you would have limited insight into the topic. Of course to have a good LOR you have to have actually done something worthwhile/productive in the eyes of the writer and reader, so obviously if you are just filling out check boxes that isn't happening.

As a personal note, I had an interviewer at Hopkins tell me straight out that I was interviewing largely because of a single letter.

Do you have any examples of "powerful" LOR statements? I'm not calling you out but I can't see how a letter of recommendation can be original and influential. For most applicants a LOR is from a professor, a PI, etc. I'd imagine these LORs would speak about personality traits: how helpful/kind/patient/thorough/hard-working the applicant is.

 

[mimelim]

Do you have any examples of "powerful" LOR statements? I'm not calling you out but I can't see how a letter of recommendation can be original and influential. For most applicants a LOR is from a professor, a PI, etc. I'd imagine these LORs would speak about personality traits: how helpful/kind/patient/thorough/hard-working the applicant is.

If your LOR is talking about being helpful/nice/thorough, there is something wrong. Every adcom is going to say, "Ya, so what? Dime a dozen." You are correct, those LOR that many people have and say, "oh ya I have strong LOR" are not going to hurt you, but they sure as hell aren't going to help you. They are bland and meaningless. This is why great LOR aren't required for medical school. There aren't enough people who get them to make them 'mandatory'.

However, that should not be confused with truly strong LOR. The most powerful LOR that is well published would be that written by Duffin about John Nash. It was a one sentence LOR, "This man is a genius." Obviously this is an extreme and yes, obviously this is John Nash. But it is to illustrate a point. You can't possibly argue that if the chairman of the department you did your major in wrote that about you, that you would get looks from every school that you applied to.

More on point. As stated previously, they have to have something to write about. Invariably for medical school applications it will complement something else in your application. If you go above and beyond, demonstrating uncommon, but highly desirable skills, people will write about them. A couple of examples from different areas.

Volunteering - Lots of people are nice, compassionate, etc. But what if you are extremely compassionate AND have the creativity, organizational skills and people skills to not just work in a homeless shelter, but figure out a way to make them 50% more efficient and through your hard work both cognitive and on the ground, 50% more services could be provided to your community? When your letter writer says that you changed how they operated for the better and hundreds of lives will be improved because of what you did, it is powerful. It is very difficult to confuse this with a BS letter writer.

Research - A lot of people end up in the lab. Publications are hit or miss for most and aren't the greatest measure. Hours spent in the lab is likewise a worthless measure of effectiveness. If a writer can only say, "He was hard working." You didn't produce something and yes that letter mirrors many pre-meds. But, when a writer doesn't have space because he is describing how he brought you in to do some basic programming, but you ended up designing his beowulf cluster for him because you could do it better and faster than the people he hired, it goes a long way.

 

[Guero]

Do you have any examples of "powerful" LOR statements? I'm not calling you out but I can't see how a letter of recommendation can be original and influential. For most applicants a LOR is from a professor, a PI, etc. I'd imagine these LORs would speak about personality traits: how helpful/kind/patient/thorough/hard-working the applicant is.

PM sent.

 

[FSU2013]

IDK, it seems clear to me. It's like writing your own job reference. No employer I ever worked for would be cool with that.

Hmm. Frankly, if this is "the way it usually works," the reference becomes essentially meaningless. Why would adcoms give theses LORs any credence at all?

You'd be surprised. My brother is in business and he says that it's kind of expected. He has been told by his supervisors to write his own performance evals about half the time.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

You'd be surprised. My brother is in business and he says that it's kind of expected. He has been told by his supervisors to write his own performance evals about half the time.

I can attest to this, it's more common than you think.

 

[circulus vitios]

PM sent.

I read it and I don't see what's so special about it: Geuro is smart and hard working. I'm sure admissions committee members have seen that thousands of times.

 

[Guero]

I read it and I don't see what's so special about it: Geuro is smart and hard working. I'm sure admissions committee members have seen that thousands of times.

It's the contribution aspect, giving tangible examples of accomplishments.

 

[PassThatMcat]

Do you have any examples of "powerful" LOR statements? I'm not calling you out but I can't see how a letter of recommendation can be original and influential. For most applicants a LOR is from a professor, a PI, etc. I'd imagine these LORs would speak about personality traits: how helpful/kind/patient/thorough/hard-working the applicant is.

Surprise to me that he finished it last night and sent it out this morning. Dr. ___ emailed me the final draft. He did add some worthwhile statements that I would not have included if I wrote it purely myself, so I am kind of glad I took some of the advice of this thread.

 

[Guero]

Surprise to me that he finished it last night and sent it out this morning. Dr. ___ emailed me the final draft. He did add some worthwhile statements that I would not have included if I wrote it purely myself, so I am kind of glad I took some of the advice of this thread.

Cool beans. Good luck!

 

[KnuxNole]

IDK, it seems clear to me. It's like writing your own job reference. No employer I ever worked for would be cool with that.

Hmm. Frankly, if this is "the way it usually works," the reference becomes essentially meaningless. Why would adcoms give theses LORs any credence at all?

I dont see a problem writing your own job reference if they sign it, or ghostwriting a LOR. It's not like those particular LORs are sacred moral pieces, or if you do this, you are a nasty person. You're just going with the motions.

 

[KnuxNole]

You have the opportunity to write your own letter and don't want to take it? What's wrong with you?

p diddy

And this.

It's basically a free strong letter, if you use it to your advantage 🙂

 

[benzonase]

Some people are just ******edly busy (like my PI) and have such little time that even writing a 1 page letter about someone whos worked for you for several years is difficult to get done on time.

Take it as an opportunity to spin what you think you did was most important, or how cool you are 🙂

 

[jl lin]

I dont see a problem writing your own job reference if they sign it, or ghostwriting a LOR. It's not like those particular LORs are sacred moral pieces, or if you do this, you are a nasty person. You're just going with the motions.

It seems kind of pointless to me. I would like to read more of what people on adcoms think about this kind of thing.

 

[idontcaureuknow]

Hmm. Frankly, if this is "the way it usually works," the reference becomes essentially meaningless. Why would adcoms give theses LORs any credence at all?

Exactly how I feel.

You have the opportunity to write your own letter and don't want to take it? What's wrong with you?

p diddy

I KNOW I'm stupid for having a problem writing one of my own letters of rec, but I just can't. I tried, twice this cycle actually. Once, I had another person, not the person giving me the rec, write me a generic letter (really sucks because this letter would have been a very strong letter too). The other letter, as many times as I tried I just ended up infuriated and felt like I was cheating. I'd trash each attempt and try again. In the end I have decided to go another route for the second letter and form a relationship with a different person to get it.

Probably because I'm young and stupid, I can't seem to do it. Maybe later in life it won't bug me, but now I still have some idiotic sense of honor I guess. So that's what's wrong with me: I'm young and stupid.

 

[HopeItWorksOut]

You're assuming that they give credence to LORs in the first place. LORs, no matter how amazing and powerful you may think they are, are all derivative and pointless: "X is a great person. Here are a few examples of X being a great person. X would make a great medical student and doctor, and I recommend him with no reservations. Sincerely, Y." It's just a check box to filter out the weirdos, and even then the average weirdo could still get a professor to write an incredible generic LOR.

Certainly not pointless at all. I am pretty sure that my amazing 2 page LOR from a prominent and world renowned physician scientists has gotten me some MSTP interviews. I have below average stats and no I'm not URM. He told me that with the letter they wouldn't need to interview me (he was joking), but he seriously took his time (a few days) to write this letter because of all the hard work I have done in his lab/research in the past two years. Don't ever underestimate a good, strong, LOR, I think it has power to really make you stand out, especially if this person has witnessed you working with patients, has given you a high level of responsibility, and has given you independence and you have pulled your own way and thrived in the work that was bestowed on you. There is a lot to say and a lot of schools will take it seriously. Trust me, I have 6 interviews already, I submitted my secondaries first week of September last week of August. I have 1 rejection. My MCAT is a 30, I'm non-traditional with an abysmal uGPA and u. sGPA. I do have a 3.8 graduate SMP GPA and lots of experience. Either way I'm sure my LOR has been a big helper!

 

[FSU2013]

Certainly not pointless at all. I am pretty sure that my amazing 2 page LOR from a prominent and world renowned physician scientists has gotten me some MSTP interviews. I have below average stats and no I'm not URM. He told me that with the letter they wouldn't need to interview me (he was joking), but he seriously took his time (a few days) to write this letter because of all the hard work I have done in his lab/research in the past two years. Don't ever underestimate a good, strong, LOR, I think it has power to really make you stand out, especially if this person has witnessed you working with patients, has given you a high level of responsibility, and has given you independence and you have pulled your own way and thrived in the work that was bestowed on you. There is a lot to say and a lot of schools will take it seriously. Trust me, I have 6 interviews already, I submitted my secondaries first week of September last week of August. I have 1 rejection. My MCAT is a 30, I'm non-traditional with an abysmal uGPA and u. sGPA. I do have a 3.8 graduate SMP GPA and lots of experience. Either way I'm sure my LOR has been a big helper!

Ummmmm, what? That's really surprising - a long letter can be the kiss of death.

 

[HopeItWorksOut]

Ummmmm, what? That's really surprising - a long letter can be the kiss of death.

Who told you that? What exactly is your source? I had an interviewer tell me that they were impressed by my LOR, and I also asked before I applied and received an interview for one of the MSTP programs what they were looking for and they said they heavily relied on GPA, MCAT, LOR, and experience. I work at my local state university's medical admissions department, the person who wrote me the letter is part of the committee. I'm sure he knows what he is doing. A letter written sincerely with plenty of substance to fill 2 pages is probably not a bad thing for you. 2 pages of nothing is, it depends on who writes it and what you have done.

 

[FSU2013]

Who told you that? What exactly is your source? I had an interviewer tell me that they were impressed by my LOR, and I also asked before I applied and received an interview for one of the MSTP programs what they were looking for and they said they heavily relied on GPA, MCAT, LOR, and experience. I work at my local state university's medical admissions department, the person who wrote me the letter is part of the committee. I'm sure he knows what he is doing. A letter written sincerely with plenty of substance to fill 2 pages is probably not a bad thing for you. 2 pages of nothing is, it depends on who writes it and what you have done.

It's just common knowledge. Basically for personal statements and LORs, if you can't fit it in one page, it doesn't need to be said. I wasn't questioning whether or not the letter had great content, it's just uncommon for letters to be long. Think about if, if you had 1000 apps to read with 1000 transcripts, 1000 personal statements, 3-4000 LORs, you want them to be as succinct as possible.

 

[bearintraining]

Just want to chime in and say:

This scenario is really NOT uncommon. And in fact, perhaps to your advantage. Often times people are incredibly busy and they really just don't know where to start. Make a list of qualities you think you have and that you think the person who you're writing it on behalf of would be able to agree to (or have personally witnessed) -- as in all LORs, it's good to give examples or scenarios that demonstrate what you are claiming.

And as to ethically -- I do not see a problem with it. Essentially, while it is uncomfortable (and perhaps more importantly, a difficult thing to write about yourself), the onus is on them. It is your referee's responsibility to READ what you wrote, since they asked you to do it in the first place, and make corrections as needed or necessary.

However, if they never see the letter and ask you to submit it, that is a TERRIBLE idea. Do NOT agree to this.

Just my 2 cents (btw, my PhD supervisor has students do this all the time, she always read/edits/submits it herself, and we do NOT have access to her electronic signature. Furthermore, if she feels you have said something she doesn't agree with, she will talk to you about it as it could be a misunderstanding).

 

[bearintraining]

Ummmmm, what? That's really surprising - a long letter can be the kiss of death.

I think it entirely depends on the experience -- how well does this person know you, what are key attributes they SHOULD be commenting on, etc. For instance, my PhD reference letter is 3 pages. This person has spent 6+ years with me on a nearly daily basis, probably knows me better than some friends, and we have interacted in many different scenarios. What does help, IMO, is to have bolded "headings" in such a letter, so that people can quickly identify qualities they are looking for, and then read carefully the details if they so wished.

 

[HopeItWorksOut]

I think it entirely depends on the experience -- how well does this person know you, what are key attributes they SHOULD be commenting on, etc. For instance, my PhD reference letter is 3 pages. This person has spent 6+ years with me on a nearly daily basis, probably knows me better than some friends, and we have interacted in many different scenarios. What does help, IMO, is to have bolded "headings" in such a letter, so that people can quickly identify qualities they are looking for, and then read carefully the details if they so wished.

I agree, that it all depends on who is writing it and how long you have worked for them/how much you have contributed. In my case I spent 2 years working 55-60hrs/week doing clinical and basic sciences research so he had plenty to say. Bolding might be a good idea. I just wanted to point out that LOR are important and shouldn't really be dismisssed as just a requirement, they can really add to your app overall.