Lower average MCAT scores, etc. among DOs

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inkerman

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Does anyone consider the lower average undergrad GPAs, MCATs, and USMLEs among DOs to be a problem? If it is a problem, should it be solved? And by what method would it be solved? I mentioned USMLE along with GPA and MCAT since it is also a way to directly compare DOs with MDs
 
Does anyone consider the lower average undergrad GPAs, MCATs, and USMLEs among DOs to be a problem? If it is a problem, should it be solved? And by what method would it be solved? I mentioned USMLE along with GPA and MCAT since it is also a way to directly compare DOs with MDs

?
 
DO's do a lot better on COMLEX, so it evens out.

This has the makings of a really great thread. I am excited to see where it goes.
 
Does anyone consider the lower average undergrad GPAs, MCATs, and USMLEs among DOs to be a problem? If it is a problem, should it be solved? And by what method would it be solved? I mentioned USMLE along with GPA and MCAT since it is also a way to directly compare DOs with MDs

Just so you know, you're not the first to have this bright idea:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=281306
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=520815
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=500680
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=498781
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=473331
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=457625
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=449353
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=19733
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=400131
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=332776
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=398058
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=365975

And this from a 30 second search. As you can see, it's been debated over and over and over and over and over and over and over. I REALLY doubt that fresh information will be discovered.
 
Does anyone consider the lower average undergrad GPAs, MCATs, and USMLEs among DOs to be a problem? If it is a problem, should it be solved? And by what method would it be solved? I mentioned USMLE along with GPA and MCAT since it is also a way to directly compare DOs with MDs

Whats your point? The MCAT doesn't matter...its only a loop, once you've gone through 1 day of med school, its completely irrevelant.
 
This is indeed a HUGE problem. For pre-allo. I don't know if anybody else has noticed, but all of a sudden people in pre-allo are posting that they're applying both MD and DO, and the other pre-allos are (gulp) LETTING it happen. A stunning change.

Definitely, with increasing numbers of the more gifted pre-allos accepting that DO=MD, we are seeing a devaluation of the ego in pre-allo. If just anybody, from the unwashed sub-30 MCAT masses, can be a physician, then what superior privileges is a pre-allo still entitled to?

The whole point of getting a 4.0 is to be safe and secure. Oh the horror when a pre-allo realizes that getting in to med school is the easy part. DO=MD means we all do the hard part, more or less together.
 
hmm. I sub par?

I went osteo with the following stats:

27T MCAT: Subpar, though for the writing section I scored top 99.9% 🙂
3.8GPA Cum.
~3.5GPA Science Avg.
Double major: Biochemistry (B.S.); and Chemical Biotechnology (B.S.)
President of my schools Pre-Medical Student Organization (2 years)
Emergency Medical Tech (3 years experience on ambulance)
Emergency Services Technician (was currently employed at hospital at time of application)

I guess I could have gone allo, but honestly once I got my PCOM acceptance I just kind of went lax about all the other applications I had floating around out there...

I like to think I'm not subpar, I don't care what you think. But if my doctor had my stats I wouldn't be particularly upset...

I'll be entering OMS1 come august, can't wait.


On a serious note, the higher the entering stats for osteo's the more respect we'll get... That's a given, and I hope more and more qualified candidates get in.

My only grievance with the DO degree, is having to explain what it is to stubborn people... other then that I give it 2 👍
 

DO's do a lot better on COMLEX, so it evens out.

This has the makings of a really great thread. I am excited to see where it goes.

I don't know guys, I think it will be absolutely riveting to read the same old disguised MD vs DO responses over and over until a mod finally closes the thread. We should start a pool:idea:. How many legitimate posts (meaning people actually responding to the question) will we get until the thread gets closed? I think 32.
 
I have to state that I my DO applications were kind of a last resort, but after interviewing etc, I'm very excited to be a DO. I feel that as the number of DO's out there increases, people will become more aware that DO=MD. I personally think that a patient benefits more by seeing a DO, but many do not even know that they have a DO as their PCP. I think it's important for all the future DO's to really advocate and inform people about osteopathic medicine - otherwise it will stay in the large shadow of the MD. Also, I feel that the larger numbers of students heading to the Carribbean MD programs is really starting to drag Md's down... I dunno about you guys, but lately I've really started questioning where my doctor has gotten his degree from...
 
Yes, there is life after the MCAT. 🙄

Your vision of what it takes to become a doctor will expand exponentially once you open those great doors of medicine and step through to the other side, as a medical student and beyond. It's like Neo's eyes being opened for the first time. The MCAT means virtually nothing, once you matriculate, and practically nobody talks about it after that.
 
Does anyone consider the lower average undergrad GPAs, MCATs, and USMLEs among DOs to be a problem? If it is a problem, should it be solved? And by what method would it be solved? I mentioned USMLE along with GPA and MCAT since it is also a way to directly compare DOs with MDs

As far as the reputation of osteopathic medicine goes: YES - it is a huge problem. But people like to discuss how to cover it up by changing our degree to different letters rather than discuss how we could raise standards.

There is a simple way to solve it:

Place a maximum cap of 150 students per class at DO schools AND STOP OPENING NEW SCHOOLS. Problem solved. Less supply and more demand = higher standards.
 
There is a simple way to solve it:

Place a maximum cap of 150 students per class at DO schools AND STOP OPENING NEW SCHOOLS. Problem solved. Less supply and more demand = higher standards.

I tend to agree. Particularly with the need to stop opening new schools. Also, I think we need to fix our GME.
 
Over and over and over and over and over
Like a monkey with a miniature cymbal
The joy of repetition really is in you
Under and under and under and under and under
The smell of repetition really is on you
And when you look this way I really am with you
 
I tend to agree. Particularly with the need to stop opening new schools. Also, I think we need to fix our GME.
👍

Unfortunately changes occur a lot slower if there isn't a significant monetary benefit from them.
 
There is a simple way to solve it:
Place a maximum cap of 150 students per class at DO schools AND STOP OPENING NEW SCHOOLS. Problem solved. Less supply and more demand = higher standards.

Amen to that. 👍

Then I would say, fix the clinical years. Big time.

Also, to the OP. I think its important to remember that averages are averages. They don't say anything about any given individual within osteopathic medicine. I don't feel arrogant sharing my stats. MCAT=38. USMLE Step 1=228. I worked hard, I studied for a really long time, I trained like I was running a marathon. I'm perfectly happy attending an osteopathic school. My experience is that there's a lot of intangible qualities of osteopathic students that make them, well, more fun to be around, but can't be measured with a statistic. That is just my personal experience, not an assertion.



bth
 
Does anyone consider the lower average undergrad GPAs, MCATs, and USMLEs among DOs to be a problem? If it is a problem, should it be solved? And by what method would it be solved? I mentioned USMLE along with GPA and MCAT since it is also a way to directly compare DOs with MDs


:beat:
 
heres an honest question from an oms-0.

If we stagnate our matriculating students. How does this affect the fact that america is in need of more and more doctors (cant remember whether what organization said it but I read it somewhere...), if I understand correctly DO's have been filling that void, as AMA hasnt been opening new med schools as quickly as DO schools (much slower if im correct).

They say by my grad class (2012) do's will be 20%+ of practicing physicians. I'm not really going to be happy until DO's = 50% and I see this physician shortage as a means to get closer to that number. Now i'm not saying we should mindlessly open schools and pump graduates, but if AMA opens much more schools to fill the void of physicians, then MD entrance scores will be depressed, and more will go MD route over DO, that 20% figure will remain stagnant or possibly drop, and DO's still get the 'whats a do' question.

Over the past few years i've noticed entrance scores for schools (i'm sure PCOM and im pretty sure others are similar) have steadily been increasing, not enormous amounts but still... I think the 2005 or 06 numbers for pcom was ~27mcats, 3.25gpa? theres some swing to those numbers but I don't think they're particularly bad... I was talking to an MD physician who said years ago a 27 on the mcat was pretty good and could have gotten you into allo route...

I guess i'm saying i support regulating school expansion, but definately not limiting it...
 
haha...this thread is sooooo funny to me. I applied both and got into DO, so I went, why? because I wanted to be a physician and knew both routes would get me there. Now I'm studying to take BOTH COMLEX and USMLE, to have the best chances to get into any residency I want to get into...and I laugh because today I was at school studying for 12 hours and I saw some dude come in with his MCAT study books...and there I was, wishing I were studying for the MCAT instead of the boards! :laugh: because it was that much easier....😱 you can get where you want to go by going either route, anyone who has MD or DO after their name didn't have it any "easier" than the other to get where they are.

Getting in IS DEFINITELY the easy part...the hard part is getting somewhere you want to go, and matching that with what you're willing to work for and how hard you're willing to work 😳
 
heres an honest question from an oms-0.

If we stagnate our matriculating students. How does this affect the fact that america is in need of more and more doctors (cant remember whether what organization said it but I read it somewhere...), if I understand correctly DO's have been filling that void, as AMA hasnt been opening new med schools as quickly as DO schools (much slower if im correct).

They say by my grad class (2012) do's will be 20%+ of practicing physicians. I'm not really going to be happy until DO's = 50% and I see this physician shortage as a means to get closer to that number. Now i'm not saying we should mindlessly open schools and pump graduates, but if AMA opens much more schools to fill the void of physicians, then MD entrance scores will be depressed, and more will go MD route over DO, that 20% figure will remain stagnant or possibly drop, and DO's still get the 'whats a do' question.

Over the past few years i've noticed entrance scores for schools (i'm sure PCOM and im pretty sure others are similar) have steadily been increasing, not enormous amounts but still... I think the 2005 or 06 numbers for pcom was ~27mcats, 3.25gpa? theres some swing to those numbers but I don't think they're particularly bad... I was talking to an MD physician who said years ago a 27 on the mcat was pretty good and could have gotten you into allo route...

I guess i'm saying i support regulating school expansion, but definately not limiting it...

You are drinking the Kool-Aid, if you think DO's are primarily responsible for solving the physician shortage. That's one of the party lines. There's a increasing trend of DO's wanting to specialize in non-primary care specialties. Anyway, it's going to take a lot more than that to address the shortage. It's complicated. Yes, we need more physicians, but they need to be in the right fields and in the right places. Also, you need to increase the trend toward greater preventive care, etc., but there is just so little financial incentive for that...especially for the biotech and pharmaceutical companies, who tend to thrive off of sickness. And then you have insurance companies who cut corners left and right on your healthcare so that they can make their 15% profit margin. Then there's the problem of access. We have a lot of issues to address here.

Anyway, to your point: What do you think will happen when you open all these new schools and double the amount of students, but keep the number of residencies the same? You create a bottleneck. Well, that's exactly what's going to happen, if we allow schools to pop up like McDonald's chain stores, not to mention increasing negative publicity and possibly decreasing standards. When residency slots become more competitive due to an increase number of students, someone is going to lose and it will probably be the FMG's. They'll get squeezed out. However, you've done nothing to solve the shortage. As long as we have roughly the same number of residencies, we'll have roughly the same shortage situation. The bottleneck is with residency programs. Also, in order to address the issue more fully, we will probably need to offer more incentive to enter into primary care fields and place more of our money and energy into preventive care.

I think you should never sacrifice quality for quantity. I suggest increasing the quality of our programs, rotations, and our schools. Also, you need to create more residency programs and quality rotation sites. Then, you are able to open new schools. Otherwise, you are not helping the situation that much. Opening new schools without increasing the number of quality residency programs and suitable rotation sites is just asking for trouble.
 
D.O. schools love to talk about the "primary care" garbage and then many still have the gall to charge $44,000 tuition saddling student with $250,000 of debt. LIfetime much higher w/ compounded interest.

You want doctors to go into primary care: CHARGE LESS TUITION you greedy Osteopathic bastards.

Speaking specifically of the bastards at NYCOM in my case.
 
You can add UNECOM to that tuition gripe. $42K/yr tuition -- tuition that has literally doubled in the past 8 years. Ouch.
 
Does anyone consider the lower average undergrad GPAs, MCATs, and USMLEs among DOs to be a problem? If it is a problem, should it be solved? And by what method would it be solved? I mentioned USMLE along with GPA and MCAT since it is also a way to directly compare DOs with MDs

some consider those things to be a problem, and some do not. the central issuue is the validity of those measures. some believe that lower average scores predict less efficacy or success as a doctor, and therefore worry about any group that averages lower. others believe that these measures are not valid predictors and therefore see no problem with lower averages and no advantage to higher averages.

sidenote, but i think averages have been creeping up recently because there have been more applicants. mcat scores are pegged to your percentile, so the average mcat among all test takers doesn't really change... but having 45000 applicants rather than 30000 means there's 50% more people who have each score. selection for higher scores increases the average matriculant mcat score without increasing the overall average mcat. of course, if DO schools have less faith in the mcat, you would expect less selection for it and therefore less movement in the matriculant average even if more high scores are out there... i'm not sure what the movements have actually been.
 
The two men that helped me get into WVSOM are the respective heads of Mississippi's and Louisiana's Osteopathic organizations.

What they've discovered is that the better doctors have had undergrad GPA's around 3.3 and MCAT's in the early 20's. In fact, at first they were afraid to recommend me because they thought my MCAT was too high. After talking to me, they changed their mind.

The "high standards" of allo schools and (recently) osteos is DEMAND DRIVEN. since only 1% of all applicants get in the allo schools, they have to raise the "price" (GPA/MCAT) to get in.

We need more osteopathic schools for the following reasons:
1) To have more osteopathic doctors
2) Keep admissions standards from skyrocketing
3) Less students having to go out of state and pay huge OOS tuitions (like me!)
 
The two men that helped me get into WVSOM are the respective heads of Mississippi's and Louisiana's Osteopathic organizations.

What they've discovered is that the better doctors have had undergrad GPA's around 3.3 and MCAT's in the early 20's. In fact, at first they were afraid to recommend me because they thought my MCAT was too high. After talking to me, they changed their mind.

The "high standards" of allo schools and (recently) osteos is DEMAND DRIVEN. since only 1% of all applicants get in the allo schools, they have to raise the "price" (GPA/MCAT) to get in.

We need more osteopathic schools for the following reasons:
1) To have more osteopathic doctors
2) Keep admissions standards from skyrocketing
3) Less students having to go out of state and pay huge OOS tuitions (like me!)

Out of curiosity, how did you come to that number?
 
Out of curiosity, how did you come to that number?

It's gotta be humor. 40% get in, and I think the same is true for DO. For MD there are about 45,000 applicants for about 18,000 seats.
 
The two men that helped me get into WVSOM are the respective heads of Mississippi's and Louisiana's Osteopathic organizations.

What they've discovered is that the better doctors have had undergrad GPA's around 3.3 and MCAT's in the early 20's.

since only 1% of all applicants get in the allo schools,

We need more osteopathic schools for the following reasons:

So let me get this straight...The best doctors have lower stats, only 1% of allopathic applicants get accepted, and we need more osteopathic schools.

:laugh:
 
So let me get this straight...The best doctors have lower stats, only 1% of allopathic applicants get accepted, and we need more osteopathic schools.

:laugh:

Uh, yeah. :laugh:

That individual is either a troll, or is being incredibly sarcastic. Either way, I had a good laugh.
 
So let me get this straight...The best doctors have lower stats, only 1% of allopathic applicants get accepted, and we need more osteopathic schools.

:laugh:

:laugh:

Yeah, I especially like how they "discovered" this. As though the found this information in a cave or something.

bth
 
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