M1 Interested in CT surgery and seeking Advice

[pre-spring]

As the title says, I'm a current M1 at T-40 school and am strongly interested in CT surgery, most likely will not change that. Currently, I'm interested in going to a good i6 or a 4+3 program so I was just wondering how I should go about preparing myself. My school is P/NP for pre-clinical and clinical and they don't rank but I think they do AOA but I'm not 100% sure. It's been a couple of weeks since school started so I just wanted to start early, I do know that apart from school and step2 research and recommendation letters are very important but I was wondering if anything else matters, like volunteering or leadership positions or such. Unfortunately, the school doesn't have an i6 residency or a CT fellowship, but they do have a pretty big CT surgery department, so in this case, I was wondering if I should go and do research and get letters from my school's department or try to work at another school that has a residency program, although there aren't any options nearby.

Just seeking some good advice in general about how to get the ball rolling and be a competitive applicant and what the general requirements are to be a competitive applicant for a good CT program.

Thanks.

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[DarkBluMage]

Thoracic Surgical Attending Available for Questions

I'm a Thoracic Surgeon practicing in a non-academic facility. Do about 80% thoracic, 20% cardiac cases. Specialize in robotic lung cancer surgery. I'd be happy to answer any questions that you might have.

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[DarkBluMage]

You can ask your questions to the OP on that thread.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

You should probably find out if there is AOA because that is pretty important especially if not coming from a top school

 

[pre-spring]

You should probably find out if there is AOA because that is pretty important especially if not coming from a top school

Just asked and it turns out we do have AOA.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

See whether preclinical grades matter for it.

 

[pre-spring]

See whether preclinical grades matter for it.

Turns out pre-clinical grades do matter for it. So, I’ll try to do my best in my classes, but do you think I should gun for any student council positions or leadership positions in clubs or basically put a lot of effort into any extracurriculars apart from research. Also, CT surgery specific research seems to be pretty hard to get, so is it fine if I do gen surgery research or do you suggest just trying for CT surgery research specifically?

Thanks

 

[YCAGA]

I briefly considered applying CT surgery for a midtier state school but quickly realized I would not be competitive, and a different path was much more realistic. If I got AOA and published a significant amount of research, probably at least 3 to 4 first author papers in decent or better journals, and was also involved with national conferences and local organizations, I would have felt at least like it was worth applying. Of course, I also think you need at least 260+ on step two and ideally 270+. If you go to DO school, it will be a challenge to match general surgery and I wouldn't even consider the integrated path for thoracic.

 

[Hzreio]

I briefly considered applying CT surgery for a midtier state school but quickly realized I would not be competitive, and a different path was much more realistic. If I got AOA and published a significant amount of research, probably at least 3 to 4 first author papers in decent or better journals, and was also involved with national conferences and local organizations, I would have felt at least like it was worth applying. Of course, I also think you need at least 260+ on step two and ideally 270+. If you go to DO school, it will be a challenge to match general surgery and I wouldn't even consider the integrated path for thoracic.

This is such a dumb philosophy. If you're at a DO and you need to be competitive you might as well aim for a level of competitiveness required to match iCT. And if you're applying into gen surg planning to do CT, youre probably going to apply iCT as well. wtf does "dont even consider integrated" even mean?

 

[Wolvvs]

This is such a dumb philosophy. If you're at a DO and you need to be competitive you might as well aim for a level of competitiveness required to match iCT. And if you're applying into gen surg planning to do CT, youre probably going to apply iCT as well. wtf does "dont even consider integrated" even mean?

There's not a lot of data out there for integrated CT surgery as it's not in the charting outcomes document. There's probably about 50 spots available each year, and I do know that in 2021 exactly one DO applicant matched to an integrated CT program.

Of course anyone can give it a shot, but putting together a dual application takes time and effort, and there's always the risk of appearing unfocused. Nearly everyone who applies to CT is (or at least should be) dual applying with general surgery, but the best possible CT surgery application isn't necessarily the same as the best possible general surgery application. The vast majority of DO students aren't going to be that one student per year who matches, meaning it's probably a better idea for most students to focus all their energy on matching into general surgery.

 

[m1redsox]

I briefly considered applying CT surgery for a midtier state school but quickly realized I would not be competitive, and a different path was much more realistic. If I got AOA and published a significant amount of research, probably at least 3 to 4 first author papers in decent or better journals, and was also involved with national conferences and local organizations, I would have felt at least like it was worth applying. Of course, I also think you need at least 260+ on step two and ideally 270+. If you go to DO school, it will be a challenge to match general surgery and I wouldn't even consider the integrated path for thoracic.

This is just not true. Even for neurosurgery, derm, and plastics, the average step 2 score is in the high 250s, the average number of *first author* pubs in *good* journals is probably 1-2 (plus 2-3 middle author or low quality journal pubs), and the percentage of matched students with AOA is <40%.

OP, shoot for a 255+, 3-4 full manuscript pubs, and network with your CT surg dept. You can also try to spend your M1-M2 summer with a school that has an i6 program.

At the same time, keep in mind that this is all pretty far away still. So just do what you can while focusing on your preclinical learning.

 

[SweetBurger]

I briefly considered applying CT surgery for a midtier state school but quickly realized I would not be competitive, and a different path was much more realistic. If I got AOA and published a significant amount of research, probably at least 3 to 4 first author papers in decent or better journals, and was also involved with national conferences and local organizations, I would have felt at least like it was worth applying. Of course, I also think you need at least 260+ on step two and ideally 270+. If you go to DO school, it will be a challenge to match general surgery and I wouldn't even consider the integrated path for thoracic.

a DO matched i6 at cedars lol, tbh his app didnt seem all that crazy either

 

[dienekes88]

As the title says, I'm a current M1 at T-40 school and am strongly interested in CT surgery, most likely will not change that. Currently, I'm interested in going to a good i6 or a 4+3 program so I was just wondering how I should go about preparing myself. My school is P/NP for pre-clinical and clinical and they don't rank but I think they do AOA but I'm not 100% sure. It's been a couple of weeks since school started so I just wanted to start early, I do know that apart from school and step2 research and recommendation letters are very important but I was wondering if anything else matters, like volunteering or leadership positions or such. Unfortunately, the school doesn't have an i6 residency or a CT fellowship, but they do have a pretty big CT surgery department, so in this case, I was wondering if I should go and do research and get letters from my school's department or try to work at another school that has a residency program, although there aren't any options nearby.

Just seeking some good advice in general about how to get the ball rolling and be a competitive applicant and what the general requirements are to be a competitive applicant for a good CT program.

Thanks.

Pretty straightforward.

1. Be a strong student: AOA, clinical grades, etc.
2. Get good scores
3. Research: 1 first author and a couple middle authorships is probably good enough
4. Good letters/Have people who will get on the phone to call for you
5. Do away rotations. This should go without saying, but if you're doing an away rotation, you should be the first one there and last person to leave. Always show up with a good attitude. When I was a resident, it shocked me how often students doing away rotations would forget that this is a month long interview.

 

[pre-spring]

This is just not true. Even for neurosurgery, derm, and plastics, the average step 2 score is in the high 250s, the average number of *first author* pubs in *good* journals is probably 1-2 (plus 2-3 middle author or low quality journal pubs), and the percentage of matched students with AOA is <40%.

OP, shoot for a 255+, 3-4 full manuscript pubs, and network with your CT surg dept. You can also try to spend your M1-M2 summer with a school that has an i6 program.

At the same time, keep in mind that this is all pretty far away still. So just do what you can while focusing on your preclinical learning.

Thanks for the reply! Recently talked to the program director for my schools plastic surgery residency, they said 15 pubs with at least 1-3 first author are considered “safe”. Guessing i6 CT should be similar.

One problem I did notice was that a lot of the cardiac surgery related research being done is usually done by interventional cardiologists, so it’s becoming quite hard to find a cardiac surgeon as mentor or to do research under. Most of the times even if they’re on the paper, the project is mainly led by an interventional cardiologist and their fellow, especially since my school doesn’t have a cardiac surgery fellowship or residency. Do you know a way around this or just hope to cold call cardiac surgeons in the school and hope for something.

 

[pre-spring]

Pretty straightforward.

1. Be a strong student: AOA, clinical grades, etc.
2. Get good scores
3. Research: 1 first author and a couple middle authorships is probably good enough
4. Good letters/Have people who will get on the phone to call for you
5. Do away rotations. This should go without saying, but if you're doing an away rotation, you should be the first one there and last person to leave. Always show up with a good attitude. When I was a resident, it shocked me how often students doing away rotations would forget that this is a month long interview.

How do you suggest finding research or a mentor when my school doesn’t have a cardiac surgery fellowship or residency and most of cardiac surgery related research is done by interventional cardiologists and their fellows. Should I just cold call and luckily hope I hit something or is there another way?
Thank!!

 

[m1redsox]

Thanks for the reply! Recently talked to the program director for my schools plastic surgery residency, they said 15 pubs with at least 1-3 first author are considered “safe”. Guessing i6 CT should be similar.

One problem I did notice was that a lot of the cardiac surgery related research being done is usually done by interventional cardiologists, so it’s becoming quite hard to find a cardiac surgeon as mentor or to do research under. Most of the times even if they’re on the paper, the project is mainly led by an interventional cardiologist and their fellow, especially since my school doesn’t have a cardiac surgery fellowship or residency. Do you know a way around this or just hope to cold call cardiac surgeons in the school and hope for something.

I suspect that 15 publications is an exaggeration. According to the NRMP data, the average number of combined abstracts+publications+presentations for a matched plastics applicant was 28. From my experience, abstracts and presentations make up the vast majority of that category. Speaking from personal experience, my number in that category is >20, yet I only have one publication on my application (and have done very well with number of interview invitations in a surgical subspecialty despite that).

So, the idea that 15 publications is "safe" is like, well yeah, duh, that's an insane number of publications and probably means you are in the >40 abstracts/pubs/presentations category, which is way above average.

 

[dienekes88]

How do you suggest finding research or a mentor when my school doesn’t have a cardiac surgery fellowship or residency and most of cardiac surgery related research is done by interventional cardiologists and their fellows. Should I just cold call and luckily hope I hit something or is there another way?
Thank!!

Oh interesting setup.

I would probably just cold call people. Best way to do it is to find someone who publishes a decent amount and also routinely has residents and students as a co-author. Moreover... the busier and more senior the person is, the less able they are to spend time with you and mentor you.

One option you can consider is to reach out to people at other facilities for a research year.